“I think it’s one of the most racially insulting things when people say, when the black or brown community raises questions about policing, we’re anti-police. We’re not anti-police. We’re anti-bad police. We need police.”
The Reverend Al Sharpton is an internationally renowned civil rights leader, founder and President of the National Action Network (NAN), which has more than 100 chapters across the country. Hailed by former President Barack Obama as a “champion for the downtrodden,” Reverend Sharpton is the host of “Politics Nation” on MSNBC; a nationally syndicated daily radio show “Keepin’ It Real”; and a nationally broadcast radio show on Sunday titled, “The Hour of Power.”
Reverend Al Sharpton describes his childhood and the formative experiences that led to a life of service and civil rights activism. He discusses Donald Trump’s effect on the country and recounts his surreal first encounter with Trump in the 1980s, in a helicopter alongside Don King. He then talks about the high stakes political battles taking place in congress and details the advice he’s given President Biden around the filibuster and dealing with a recalcitrant Mitch McConnell and GOP.
A disciple of the teachings of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Reverend Sharpton has been at the forefront of the modern civil rights movement for nearly a half of a century. He has championed police reform and accountability, calling for the elimination of unjust policies like “Stop-and-Frisk.” He has fought for voting
rights, equity in education and healthcare and LGBTQ rights. Across the years, Reverend Sharpton has advocated for those who have been victimized including Yusef Hawkins, Michael Stewart, Amadou Diallo, Abner Louima, Sean Bell, the Jena Six, Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Eric Garner and others.
MODERATOR
SPEAKER
Reverend Al Sharpton
Civil Rights Activist
Anthony Scaramucci
Founder & Managing Partner
SkyBridge
TIMESTAMPS
0:00 – Intro and background
3:08 – Childhood
7:39 – State of race relations
18:54 – Donald Trump
23:43 – Eric Adams
27:27 – Voting rights and the filibuster
30:35 – Gerrymandering and Democratic tactics
33:40 – Evaluating President Biden
35:54 – Immigration
38:15 – Evolution on LQBTQ+ issues
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
John Darsie: (00:07)
Hello everyone, and welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is John Darsie. I'm the managing director of SALT, which is a global thought leadership forum and networking platform at the intersection of finance, technology, and public policy. SALT Talks are a digital interview series that we started in 2020, with leading investors, creators, and thinkers. Our goal on these talks is the same as our goal at our SALT Conferences, which we just completed our most recent conference in New York City for the first time a couple weeks ago, which we were thrilled to do. But our goal with those conferences and our goal on these talks is to provide a window into the mind of subject-matter experts as well as provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future.
John Darsie: (00:49)
We're very excited today to welcome the Reverend Al Sharpton to SALT Talks. The Reverend is an internationally renowned civil rights leader, founder and the president of the National Action Network, which has more than 100 chapters across the country. Hailed by former President Barack Obama as a "champion for the downtrodden," Reverend Sharpton is the host of PoliticsNation on MSNBC, a nationally syndicated daily radio show Keepin' It Real, and a nationally broadcast radio show on Sunday titled the Hour of Power.
John Darsie: (01:19)
A disciple of the teachings of the Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King, Jr., Reverend Sharpton has been at the forefront of the modern civil rights movement for nearly half a century. He's championed police reform and accountability, calling for the elimination of unjust policies like stop-and-frisk. He has fought for voting rights, equity in education and healthcare, as well as LGBTQ rights also.
John Darsie: (01:41)
Across the years, Reverend Sharpton has advocated for those who have been victimized including Yusef Hawkins, Michael Stewart, Amadou Diallo, Abner Louima, Sean Bell, the Jena Six, Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Eric Garner, and many others who unfortunately have been the victims of brutality.
John Darsie: (02:00)
Hosting today's talk is Anthony Scaramucci, who is the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge Capital, which is the global alternative investment firm that also backs SALT, the global thought leadership forum of which Anthony is the chairman. And with that, I'll turn it over to Anthony for the interview.
Anthony Scaramucci: (02:15)
John, thank you.
Anthony Scaramucci: (02:16)
Reverend, it's always a pleasure to be with you. I will always remember the first time I met you, and I'm going to take you back to the Regency Hotel. I had breakfast with you, with Phil Murphy, who's now the governor of New Jersey.
Al Sharpton: (02:32)
Yeah.
Anthony Scaramucci: (02:33)
And you were, at that time, contemplating a run for the presidency. I believe it was in '04.
Al Sharpton: (02:39)
Yep.
Anthony Scaramucci: (02:39)
We were sitting in the Regency Hotel, talking about these issues. And you're a very easy guy to like, sir. I want to go to your life experiences that shaped you into the person that you are today. And I would say that for me, you're a role model in a lot of ways because you've evolved over a period of time in your career. I'm trying to do the same thing. Tell us a little bit about your life.
Al Sharpton: (03:07)
Well, I was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York. My parents were black, middle-class entrepreneurs. My father owned a construction and plumbing company and owned the house I was first brought to from the hospital. Mother was a homemaker and ran a newsstand/grocery store on the corner. And they did well enough that we moved to Queens, which in those days we felt was the suburbs, bought a nice corner house in Hollis.
Al Sharpton: (03:40)
And I wanted to be like my bishop in church. I started preaching in church at four years old. I kept saying "I want to preach. I want to preach." When the junior usher boys had their anniversary program, they let me preach and stood me on a box. It was about 900 people, and I started preaching. And they started regularly letting me preach at youth services around Brooklyn. By the time I was 10, I was licensed and ordained by the bishop. So I literally grew up preaching. I didn't have a childhood like most kids because when my playmates saw that their parents were going to hear me preach, it was awkward for them to play with me.
Al Sharpton: (04:24)
But then when I was 10, my parents had a very traumatic breakup, and my father abandoned us. We lost the house, lost the cars. But we moved back into Brooklyn, my mother, sister, and I. And she was on welfare, became a domestic worker. And I think, Mucci, that was the basis of my activism. As I reviewed in life later, is that I learned from that move the difference between zip codes because we were in the housing projects for a few months. And I would say to the other kids in the projects, "Well, why is all that garbage piling up?" They said they pick up the garbage on Saturday. But where I had been in Hollis, Queens, they picked it up twice a day. And then they would call an ambulance, it wouldn't come.
Al Sharpton: (05:12)
And I think that is what started the seeds of my activism. So by the time I was 11 ... I spent a lot of time going around bookstores. I always read a lot. And I was a loner because, like I said, a lot of kids thought it was awkward to deal with a boy preaching. I saw this book in a bookstore, and there was a guy on the cover of the book that had a clergyman's collar on. So I was interested because he was a preacher, I was a preacher. And it looked like a white guy. And I bought the book with 99 cent at that time, paperback book. It was on Adam Clayton Powell, the black congressman and minister from Harlem.
Al Sharpton: (05:52)
And I read that about him, and I wanted to be like that. And I kept bugging my mother, and she finally let me go to Harlem with my sister, who was older than me, to hear Adam Clayton Powell preach. Then I found my way into his office, and he had heard me preach on the radio on my bishop's broadcast. So that started me in activism.
Al Sharpton: (06:14)
My mother was concerned because she was fundamentalist Pentecostal. She didn't want me to get out there with the "bad crowd" that wasn't in the church. And she brought me to Reverend William Jones, who brought me to Jesse Jackson. Both of them were much older than me. And they both said, "Look, we'll keep him in the movement, but we'll keep him in the church." And they made me youth director of Operation Breadbasket, which was Dr. King's economic arm in the north.
Al Sharpton: (06:40)
And the rest was history. That's where I started. That's what shaped me: the black church, a single mother, and getting the right mentor.
Anthony Scaramucci: (06:48)
And also it's an interesting experience because the movement into the projects, you recognize the zip code thing. Right? We have uneven education system, and I'm all about having a platform of equal opportunity for people. And I think you remember this from my life story, my dad was a crane operator. I had a great middle-class upbringing. I would never dishonor him by saying that I didn't, but you definitely can see the stratification that happens in a society related to wealth. And it's no fault of the kids that are born into different areas. You don't choose the place of your birth or your skin color for that matter.
Anthony Scaramucci: (07:31)
So let's talk about the state of race relations in America today, Reverend. Are we making progress?
Al Sharpton: (07:38)
I think that in some areas we have made some progress. In other areas, we have not. What do I mean by that? When you look at the fact that our kids, the people that are in their 20s and 30s, the age of my daughter, they grew up in a different social setting than I would have. So when I tell them 30 years ago I'd march in certain neighborhoods because blacks would be killed for being in the neighborhood, they see those neighborhoods much differently than I do.
Al Sharpton: (08:16)
But at the same time, we still have the same disproportionate experience when it comes to healthcare or education or economic issue. So I think the structural inequalities are still there. The social inequalities are broader, not only for blacks but for LGBTQ and others. I think we have work to do, but we're further than we were when I grew up. I think it was exacerbated by those demigods that want to play on the other side, like our former president who you have talked about and others, who wants to stoke the fear of others, making them think that equalizing society is a threat to them and that they have to fight back. And I think that that is exacerbated by those on the far left of my side that wants to play the opposite, the flip side of the same coin, rather than say it is about us building a country for equal opportunity for everybody based on merit.
Al Sharpton: (09:28)
So it's just as important to me to deal with a policeman that's out of control and that has broke the law as it is in your area, which you supported, making sure that major corporations give guys a chance to manage money in your area. I mean, I work with people that are black money managers that can deliver and do business just like others if given the opportunity. But at the same time, don't give them the opportunity and you go in and fail. So I tell a guy that may be a money manager, deals with hedge funds, deals with whatever, that you've got to go in ... If we say to a union, "Use this guy to handle investment or pension funds," you've got to come back with a better rate than the other guy. Otherwise, you are hurting the cause. And it's not because of your race, but you will disprove that we're saying, "If given opportunity, we can rise."
Al Sharpton: (10:30)
So I think that steady to race now is diversified in trying to make it work in several areas at the same time.
Anthony Scaramucci: (10:39)
I want to get to President Trump in a second, but I want to ask you this question. In 1984, it's interesting, there was a course I took at Tufts. It was called Race Awareness. I'm a 20-year-old kid. Even though I grew up in an area where we had blacks and Italians and Irish and Jews, and it was a mixed group of people, it wasn't until I took this Race Awareness course ... And it was actually taught by a gentleman by the name of James Vance. He was in the military, and it was a great course. We talked about Adam Clayton Powell. We talked about your situations that were going on because that was in the mid 80s. So your name frankly came up a lot.
Anthony Scaramucci: (11:21)
And I guess what dawned on me at that time at the ripe old age of 20, sir, is that there were institutional biases and institutional racism in the country. I had never thought about it before until he brought in a white Barbie doll and a white Ken doll and said, "Okay, so where are the black Ken dolls?" At that time, there weren't many, frankly. And I guess my question to you is, have we chipped away at institutional racism and biases or are we confirming them? Where are we in this?
Al Sharpton: (11:55)
I think we have began to chip away, but we're nowhere near where we need to be. When you look at the fact that there's a debate going on right now on whether to have critical race theory, which is only talking about, in law schools, the idea of institutional racism. So there is the resisting. But at the same time, we've elected and reelected a black president. And at this point of your and my conversation, we have a sitting black vice president. So I'm old enough to remember when we thought that would never happen, and we have seen it happen.
Al Sharpton: (12:34)
So I think as much as I fight, as much as I'm still on the front lines, I remind people of progress because you don't want to have people in a cynical view that nothing is going to work because it has. To go from when I was 18 years old when I was the youth director of Shirley Chisholm's campaign for president, to seeing Kamala Harris as vice president, is progress. To go from admiring Adam Clayton Powell to being accessible in the White House to Barack Obama is progress.
Al Sharpton: (13:04)
Now, the progress should not make us relaxed and stop pursuing a more fair and just system and how it deals equitably with everybody because we still have a long way to go. But it always encourages us, blacks and whites, that, look at what we can do, so let's go ahead and finish the journey. Because if whites hadn't voted for Obama, he wouldn't have been president. And if whites had not also voted for Biden with a black running mate, she wouldn't be vice president. So we've got to find a way, as uncomfortable as it may be for some, to do this together. Otherwise, we become permanently entrenched, and I don't want to leave that world.
Anthony Scaramucci: (13:49)
And I appreciate that. I've always wanted to ask you this question, and so now I've got you. I'm going to ask you the question. And I want to talk about a blockhead. That's somebody that is institutionally racially charged and biased, somebody who is a full-on racist, sir. And I know you've encountered them in your life. Is there a way to crack the code there? Is there a way to break down their biases? Have you ever had an encounter with somebody who was a full-on racist who has seen the light, and if so, how so?
Al Sharpton: (14:29)
I have talked to several people throughout my journey that have said that they were just full-blown racist. And I would say, "Based on what?" And they would go from everything from they honestly believed that blacks were biologically inferior to those that believe we were intellectually inferior to those that just felt that we just were socially incapable of operating in society. And when you get down to the root of it, they cannot back up with any facts or data. It is something that has been passed down to them. It's more cultural. It's more family. It's more in their environment. I can't say that I've seen a lot of them that I've met turn around, but I can say that I've seen them engage in enough dialogue to where I've at least left some of those encounters with them questioning what they thought in advance.
Al Sharpton: (15:37)
I've also met those that had a total different view of the movement for equality that have turned around. I'll give you an example. I've met people that said, "I think all of y'all's marching and protesting and what you're doing is just tearing up the country and dah, dah, dah, dah." I said, "Well, let me ask you a question. If somebody came to you, and you're a minister, and said that a policeman shot my son in the back of his head, he was unarmed, and he did nothing wrong, what should I do? What's the proper reaction?" "Well, you should go to the authorities." And if I go to the authorities and they won't do anything, what should I do? Should I tell them, "He's just dead. Forget about it?" "Well, no. You want to get their attention." I said, "Well, how do I get their attention?" And they say, "I guess maybe you have to protest." I said, "That's exactly what I do."
Al Sharpton: (16:34)
And I concede that when I was younger I might not have stopped and explained it that way. But I think sometimes you have to walk people through what you do because all they see is a 30-second sound bite, and they don't understand why you're doing what you're doing. And you don't understand why they don't understand. And there the divide remains.
Anthony Scaramucci: (16:55)
[crosstalk 00:16:55] Yeah. Well, I mean, this is...
Al Sharpton: (16:57)
[crosstalk 00:16:57] By people on both sides.
Anthony Scaramucci: (16:58)
This is something, sir, that I do admire about you: your intellectual evolution and also your outreach. The fact that you are willing to engage with people like that and not shut them down, it's the cause of Martin Luther King. Don Phillips wrote a book about the leadership principles of Martin Luther King. It just came out again. He revised it. And a lot of those teachings are in there: the engagement, the consistency of outreach even to those people who are filled with hatred which is unexplained. So I've always admired that about you.
Anthony Scaramucci: (17:39)
Let's go to Donald Trump for a second. And Mr. Darsie here is dying to ask you questions from Durham, North Carolina.
John Darsie: (17:45)
Let me just say something very quick, Anthony. You asked that question about blockheads, and it made me think of a book that I read growing up. I did grow up in Durham, North Carolina as I mentioned in the open, Reverend Sharpton. There's a great book that I would recommend to people called The Best of Enemies that is about a woman named Ann Atwater and a Klansman named C. P. Ellis. And they get together, and they sort of get to know each other and mend their differences. It's a story about people changing their ways and reconciling different points of view. It's a great book about that, about how people, if they just get to know people from a human level, that they can really change their views. So just to interrupt the programming for that point, but- [crosstalk 00:18:22]
Anthony Scaramucci: (18:22)
No. Not at all, John. And I know you've got a lot of questions for the Reverend, so I'm going to be brief here. I just have a few more. I want to talk about Donald Trump for a second. We both knew Donald Trump. I knew him a very long time, as I know you did. Did you think his presidency would manifest itself the way it did? And then, did he help race relations in the country by making us more aware of our divide, or did he hurt race relations? So first question is, did you think he was going to end up like that? I certainly didn't. Obviously, I wouldn't have supported him.
Al Sharpton: (18:54)
I met Donald Trump ... My introduction to him was in the late 80s when we dealt with ... He and his father had a discrimination lawsuit by the federal government about their housing. So we started off being on opposite sides of a race case. But then about two years later, Don King was going to do some fights in Atlantic City. Trump had the exclusive on the convention center. And King said to me, "Look, Trump wants to meet you and settle whatever beef y'all have and become friendly. He's not a bigot and the court thing and all of that."
Al Sharpton: (19:37)
So I remember the first time I really had a long conversation with him is I rode his black helicopter with Don King and him, riding to Atlantic City to look at the convention center. They were going to do a Tyson fight. And the objective was to put me in the helicopter and me and Trump get to know each other. As we're riding that hour, 45 minutes to an hour, Don King, Donald Trump sitting in front of me talking, both of them, incessantly. Neither one of them looked like they came up for a breath. Neither one of them listening to each other. It was the most surreal time in my life.
Al Sharpton: (20:13)
And that's where I got off the helicopter and said, "This guy's just a self-promoter, a total narcissist." And if Don King had been born white, he'd have been Donald Trump. That was my view of them. And I never took him that seriously. I'd see him at fights. He'd invite me to social events. And I felt he was a showman. I felt he was Don King in white.
Al Sharpton: (20:34)
My hope when he got elected as president, to get to your question, was that he would grow. Why did I want to think that he could grow, Mucc? Because I grew. The guy that I started in the jumpsuit at just the marches learned as I went because I felt I had a responsibility to the same people I'm marching for, that I'm still marching for, to do what I could do at a different level as best I could. So I kept saying to people, "He's done some real coarse things. He's done some things that I think are racist. But maybe he'll grow into it. He's in the White House now. This is the ultimate power. There's nowhere to go up from this."
Al Sharpton: (21:18)
He always had a chip on his shoulder. He would say to me sometimes, "Oh, you know I'm an outsider. Even though I've got money, they don't like me, the elite." I remember, Mucc, right after he got elected, he called me about three weeks later. I had been on Morning Joe that morning. And I had said, "You got to understand Donald Trump. He was born in Queens. He was an outer borough guy. His father and him were not part of the Manhattan elite." You talked about the Regency. They were not the ones that would sit the Regency or the power places. They were the outsiders. They had that chip on their shoulder. And he couldn't communicate that to the guys in Appalachia, that even if he's a billionaire at least on paper, I'm one of y'all. They don't like me.
Al Sharpton: (22:01)
And I thought he'd rise since he was president now, that they had to deal with him. He stayed right where he was or got worse. I think- [crosstalk 00:22:09]
Anthony Scaramucci: (22:09)
He got worse. He got worse.
Al Sharpton: (22:09)
Polarized the country more. I think he brought trash ideas into the White House. Trash in terms of unthought out policies. He never ever got past his own skin. Did he help race relations? I think he exposed race relations because I think he was so committed to playing on white fears that he never tried to in any way, shape, or form bridge the gap. And I think ultimately he will end up in a tragic figure in history. He had an opportunity to grow. You and I and anybody else can grow. You're not the same person in the fifth grade you was in the second grade. You grow with grade. He never got out of the kindergarten of narcissism.
Anthony Scaramucci: (22:57)
Yeah. I think it's well said. I mean obviously, it's one of the mistakes I've made in my life, but it's life. You make mistakes. You got to move forward.
Anthony Scaramucci: (23:07)
Let's talk about Eric Adams for a second. We had the opportunity to host Eric Adams. He was our keynote speaker at our SALT Conference two weeks ago. He opened the conference at the new VIP extension of the Javits Center, and he talked about his plans for the city. Obviously, I would like to see him become the next mayor. Just full exposure here, I'm one of his donors and a big believer in him. What do you think of Eric Adams? What are your expectations? Should he win the mayorship? And what advice would you give him, sir?
Al Sharpton: (23:43)
Eric Adams was part of Reverend Herbert Daughtry's gathering, who was one of my mentors. And Herbert Daughtry used to preach to people in our community in Brooklyn, "Don't just fight the police system. Go inside, and let's change it from the inside." Eric went inside, became a policeman. And some of the activists got on him, called him a name, and all that, but he took it. He was strong. I knew him from then. When I started National Action Network 30 years ago, our attorney, attorney Michael Hardy, was still our executive vice president of general counsel, said we need five people to sign to incorporate National Action Network. I said, "Fine." One of the five that signed was a cop named Eric Adams. That's how well I know him.
Al Sharpton: (24:34)
And I've watched him, and he's watched me. I remember times that I was under threat, he would get black cops to protect me. So one of the reasons my daughter went out and endorsed him and did commercials for him is he grew up Uncle Eric. And we debate issues. I mean, he would try to work with republicans more than I would. And we always was honest with each other. He has integrity, and he does not have fear. I think he will be a good mayor. I think that he will give the balance of holding police accountable but fighting crime at the same time.
Al Sharpton: (25:08)
I think it is one of the most racially insulting things people have is to think that when people in the black community or the brown community raise questions about policing, we're anti-police. We're not anti-police. We are anti-bad police. We need police. Two and a half weeks after I did the eulogy at George Floyd's funeral in Minneapolis and Houston, I did the funeral of a one-year-old black kid in Bed-Stuy who was killed by a stray bullet in a gang fight. We've got to save that kid just like we have to save George Floyd. It's not either/or. It's both/and.
Al Sharpton: (25:43)
And I think Eric Adams is going to be that kind of guy. And I think he's the kind of person that will tell people in his own community, "I think this is wrong. You're going overboard," and he'll tell it in the white community. And that's the kind of man we need. This city is in trouble. They need somebody that's going to shoot straight, that says what they mean, and means what they say. And I believe Eric is that kind of guy. He's been that way the 35 years I've known him.
Anthony Scaramucci: (26:07)
Yeah. I agree with you, sir. I have a lot of respect for him. I'm going to turn it over to Mr. John Darsie. I know he has a series of questions for you. We really appreciate you joining us on SALT Talks.
Anthony Scaramucci: (26:20)
When SALT Talks is over though, sir, I got to go over your diet, okay? I've gained probably 10-
Al Sharpton: (26:26)
Maybe if you give me the VIP extension at the Javits Center, we can work that out.
Anthony Scaramucci: (26:31)
All right. We're going to have to do a trade there, okay? Because I didn't get COVID-19, but I think I gained 19 pounds during COVID. So I need your help, sir, okay? I'm looking forward to- [crosstalk 00:26:43]
Al Sharpton: (26:42)
All right. We'll talk.
Anthony Scaramucci: (26:42)
I'm going to follow you around and figure out what you're eating. But in the meantime, go ahead, John.
John Darsie: (26:47)
Reverend, it's a pleasure to have you on SALT Talks. So something that you've always been a champion of, and even more so recently it's come into the spotlight, is voting rights. In the 2020 election, there was a spotlight shined on voting rights because of Donald Trump's attempts to overturn the election, things of that nature. And today, democrats have control of Congress, but it's a very thin margin. There's the potential for them to lose control in 2022, especially if they don't consolidate around some of these voting rights issues. What is the danger for democrats, especially in this cycle, in terms of not being aggressive in removing the filibuster in terms of their long-term control, in terms of executing their agenda?
Al Sharpton: (27:26)
Well, the immediate danger, John, is they could lose the majority in the Senate and the House. We must remember we only have 50/50 republicans to democrats in the Senate. If they lose one Senate seat, it's 51/49. They won't pass anything, and Biden and Harris will be dead in terms of legislation. So from the immediate political thing, that's the fallout.
Al Sharpton: (27:56)
But the other thing that embellishes that is that when they change in several states now, Texas, Georgia, Florida, proposals in other states, laws that makes it more difficult for blacks and browns to vote, the turnout is impeded by these new laws. If you don't have the turnout and the same number, you lose because you didn't fight these laws. And the only way to fight these laws is with a federal voting rights protection law. If in the 60s they had to fight state by state, we would have never had voting rights.
Al Sharpton: (28:42)
And what they did was get the Voting Rights Act of 65, which protected them against these kinds of laws. We had the right to vote established in the Constitution with the 15th Amendment. What we didn't have was the right to stop those that would put impediments in front of us. So they would say, "Oh, you got the right to vote here in Georgia. How many jellybeans are in that jar? Who was the 18th president of the United States mother-in-law? So the Voting Rights Act stopped that. And that's what they're coming with now. We have these different restrictions, and if the democrats don't knock those restrictions down, their base will not be able to vote in the same numbers. And if they don't vote them down, their base will not be influenced enough to vote because people are going to say, "We came out in 2020 in unusual numbers, and you did not stand up for us."
John Darsie: (29:35)
Right. I think in a lot of ways democrats don't bring the same weapons to the fight that republicans do. They're a little bit more timid in terms of their tactics in trying to make sure that they consolidate power and ensure there's fairness in the process. Another example of that is gerrymandering. So you've seen certain states around the country, my home state of North Carolina certainly among them, is gerrymandering itself in such a way that the republicans have maintained power despite the fact that the population of those states is actually moving more blue. There was a New York Times podcast recently about the opportunity in New York to potentially gerrymander the state of New York in a way that would benefit democrats in a very significant way in the House of Representatives.
John Darsie: (30:17)
One, do you think that democrats are aggressive enough in making sure that they fight back against the republican tactics to consolidate power? And two, do you think New York should gerrymander itself until the point that we get some sort of comprehensive legislation around districting?
Al Sharpton: (30:34)
For the first part of your question, I think that the democrats absolutely do not come with the same kind of laser focus on "We're going to get these things done. This is what we promised our constituent, and we are going to fight hand and foot to get them done." The old expression of "You can't bring a knife to a gunfight," and that's how they come off. And I believe that you've got to be just as committed and just as aggressive as your opponent, particularly if you think you're right.
Al Sharpton: (31:12)
In terms of how they deal with gerrymandering, I think the democrats have to look at the map. All over this country I'm seeing where we're losing congressional seats. The way they're drawing the map in New York from the census, they'd lose a congressional seat. So where is that going to be taken from? Who is going to be disempowered in terms of having the ability to put the right people into Congress and in local legislative or state legislative seats? I think you got to play hardball. My position to democrats has been, if you didn't want to play hardball, you shouldn't have showed up for the team. Don't get in the Senate and the Congress and get soft. That's not why we put you there.
John Darsie: (31:55)
Are they being soft about the filibuster? Does there need to be a more aggressive push to get rid of the filibuster?
Al Sharpton: (32:00)
Absolutely. I think that when you look at the fact that the filibuster is there other than on fiscal matters, something that deals with finance, and they did a carveout to confirm Supreme Court judges. Senator McConnell did a carveout to confirm Donald Trump's Supreme Court judges. So you can't do a carveout on voting rights? What's more fundamental than the right to vote being protected? Or you can't do a carveout on policing? What's more fundamental than public crime officials being held accountable?
Al Sharpton: (32:37)
So either you're going to have it totally revoked or you're going to have a carveout for the fundamental things that you promise people. And this excuse from them is, "Well, what happens when we're in the minority?" If you deliver for your constituents, you won't be in the minority. And I think that that is where we've got to fight. Who fights saying, "Suppose I lose the next fight?" Win this fight and worry about the next fight the next fight.
John Darsie: (33:05)
Right. So Anthony asked you about Donald Trump and what he did for race relations. I think Joe Biden probably owes his presidency to Jim Clyburn in South Carolina, obviously a champion of civil rights down there, who helped him turn around his campaign. So there was a lot of hope that President Biden and the Biden Administration would aggressively do everything they could to improve the lives of black Americans. Do you think that President Biden's lived up to the promise that he had as a champion for civil rights and for black America, or do you still think- [crosstalk 00:33:38]
Al Sharpton: (33:40)
He's been in eight months. He's been in eight months, and we met several times. I went to his speech on voting rights, and I told him that the rhetoric is stronger than I've heard in a long time but the results must match the rhetoric. But he made that speech in Philly. I was sitting on the second row, right behind his sister. And after the speech, he had come over. He talked about white supremacy. He talked about how people were methodically trying to eliminate blacks' rights to vote. And I told him, I said, "I remember when I was a little boy, President Lyndon Johnson made a speech. And he said, 'We shall overcome.' And my mother, you would have thought it was Christmas at our house." I said, "Your speech was like that. Only one word was missing." He said, "What was that, Al?" I said, "Filibuster. None of what you say can happen unless we carve around the filibuster because they won't pass the bill."
Al Sharpton: (34:33)
I think that Joe Biden in his mind and heart wants to do the right thing. He needs to stand up to his old colleagues in the Senate and say, "If you don't do this, I'm going to support the carveout of the filibuster and go to the max." This is not a time for us to act like people have not declared war. I understand he wants to do things bipartisan. But when you've got a guy like Mitch McConnell who's saying, "I won't even raise the debt ceiling in the country. Y'all are going to have to do it even though I'm going to tell you we need to raise the debt ceiling. But I'm not going to help you." How do you have a bipartisan conversation with a guy like that?
John Darsie: (35:15)
Right. Let's talk about immigration for a second. So you recently were down at the southern border addressing the issue with the Haitian migrants who now have been sent back to Haiti. And Trump, I think, turned immigration from what was certainly a key issue in people's minds to a really hot button issue that sort of dominates a lot of the rhetoric around politics these days. So how do we solve the immigration crisis? Obviously, we want to show compassion. That's part of the ethos of the United States in terms of welcoming migrants and refugees, while at the same time keeping our border secure and maintaining our legal immigration system. But how do we solve it?
Al Sharpton: (35:53)
I think we got to really ... First of all, it's a difficult issue to deal with, but we have to have one standard. You cannot have asylum for some and not asylum for others. I went to the border because I was outraged. I brought in a delegation of ministers and civil rights leaders. I was outraged when I saw these Border Patrol people on horses with whips in their hands. I mean, this is like 1850, plantation stuff. And I wanted to go and show that we were not going to stand by and allow Haitians to be treated differently than other people trying to come in the country.
Al Sharpton: (36:32)
So my question then became, on immigration, to the Biden Administration: if you come from a country where the president of the nation had just been assassinated less than two months before ... The chief prosecutor in that country said the prime minister was involved. There's [inaudible 00:36:52] in the streets because you have a fragile government at best. And then you get hit with a earthquake, followed up by a tropical storm. If that doesn't qualify for asylum, tell me what does. You can't say that we're letting in people from Afghanistan because of the Taliban and they helped us in the 20-year war, but we're not going to let people in from Haiti who has the situation equal to a government that can't function. And a lot of why that nation was poor was its engagement with the United States. So what's the standard here?
Al Sharpton: (37:30)
And I think that wherever we go, John ... And it's going to be a difficult situation, and everybody's not going to be pleased. But wherever we go on immigration, it has to be one set of rules, and it has to be where it can't be a double standard.
John Darsie: (37:45)
Well said. Anthony referenced earlier the fact that you've evolved over your life in terms of your views and your approaches to certain things. And you're not just a champion for black people and racial minorities, but you're also a champion for the LGBTQ community, which is something that's very important to us, important to Anthony. He was a big advocated in the fight for marriage equality. How have you evolved over the years, and why is it so important to you to be a champion for all of the marginalized minority segments of the population?
Al Sharpton: (38:14)
Growing up in a fundamentalist church, you automatically hear the homophobia and that this is wrong, this is a sin. And my sister, who's three years older than me, who grew up me, and her, and my mother, was gay all of my life. And I remember she used to make me go to the Greenwich Village. And she started saying to me, "Because I was born and I'm a certain way, you may disagree with it theologically, but do you have the right to force me by law to be limited from the same rights you have?" This is when I'm 12, 13 years old and just had joined civil rights. She said, "Because if you do, then George Wallace has the right to limit us because you're black." She said, "Because I'm black and gay at the same time. Same person."
Al Sharpton: (39:15)
And that's what started moving me, my own sister. And I remember years later when ... I had started saying then, "Well, we need to look at this gay question differently" all through my teen years. When I started my youth group, there was a iconic civil rights figure named Bayard Rustin who was gay. He gave me the money to start my youth group. And he was shunned, even though he was the master organizer of the '63 March on Washington. They wanted to keep him in the background because he was gay. So I started seeing my sister in all this.
Al Sharpton: (39:48)
So I would come out publicly, but I would be slight. I never got all the way there until I got ready to deal with ... I was getting ready to run for president. And I talked to my sister. And I said, "I'm going to be dealing with this LGBTQ question on my platform outright." She says, "You're getting ready to do a debate with Sam Donaldson on same-sex marriage. What are you going to say?" I said, "I don't know." She said, "You don't know?" I said, "No." I said, "Like I said, I'm for gay rights. I've been saying that for years." She said, "But what are you going to say about same-sex marriage?" I said, "I don't know."
Al Sharpton: (40:35)
She says, "Okay, I get it." She says, "You know I have a partner." I said, "Yeah." And you know my partner. She has a white partner who's white and is a female. She said, "So let me get this right. According to Reverend Al Sharpton, civil rights leader, my partner and I, who you know, have the right to shack up, but we don't have the right to marry. I don't have the right that she would be my wife if something happened to me because civil rights stops at where it becomes illegal. So the moral principle, Reverend Al, is that you can shack up, but you can't marry. I get it." And she hung up the phone. And I called back and said, "I get it."
Al Sharpton: (41:16)
And that's when I came out for same-sex marriage because I told preachers, "You don't want to perform the wedding, fine. How you going to stop a judge or a city municipality to go by what we believe? If you do that, you empower other people by what they believe to become law." So I believe LGBTQ rights is a civil right, whether people believe in it in a religious way or not. And I've even evolved on the religious part. But I'm just saying, your belief ... This is a democracy, not a theocracy. And we've even evolved in a lot of our theological views. I think it is absolutely abhorrable of those that will deal with the law by trying to legalize and make law our personal belief.
John Darsie: (42:07)
Amen. I think that's a great way to finish. I grew up going to an Open and Affirming church, and certainly welcoming those LGBTQ members of our community into the church was certainly a very rewarding thing and providing them a home, where a lot of people in the Christian community don't have that sort of welcoming.
Al Sharpton: (42:23)
I've evolved to understand that and embrace it.
John Darsie: (42:26)
All right. Well, Reverend, it's a pleasure to have you on SALT Talks. Anthony, you have a final word for the Reverend before we let him go?
Anthony Scaramucci: (42:31)
No. Listen, I'm a huge fan. I'm pushing to get invited on that radio show of yours, okay?
Al Sharpton: (42:40)
No. You got to do my television show first, PoliticsNation. I want you on MSNBC.
Anthony Scaramucci: (42:45)
All right. Well-
Al Sharpton: (42:46)
And I want to say this, John, Mucc says he wants to follow me around and go on a diet. He took a break and went and ate something and came back. I just want to- [crosstalk 00:42:53]
John Darsie: (42:54)
Exactly. And it looked like pasta, Reverend.
Al Sharpton: (42:56)
I thought it was a salad. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.
Anthony Scaramucci: (42:59)
I'm actually eating some of the most boring stuff in the world. You look like you're having lemon water all day, by the way. I'm just giving you the heads up. Okay? There's one thing no Italian could survive on. Okay? But that's what you look like, Rev.
Al Sharpton: (43:17)
I'm real careful what I eat. I work out every day.
Anthony Scaramucci: (43:20)
The truth be told, I probably couldn't follow you around all day because I'm too much of a gavone, which is a special Italian word that I can only call myself. But in any event, and even I am coming on PoliticsNation. You heard that, okay? Because Reverend, you know the most dangerous place in the world, right? It's not Fallujah. It's between me and a television camera, sir. So you know I'm coming.
Al Sharpton: (43:45)
Let's go. Let's go.
Anthony Scaramucci: (43:48)
Good to have you on, sir. It was- [crosstalk 00:43:52]
Al Sharpton: (43:52)
All right. Thanks.
Anthony Scaramucci: (43:52)
-a pleasure to be with you.
Al Sharpton: (43:52)
Really enjoyed it. Good to see you, Mucci.
John Darsie: (43:53)
Thank you again to Reverend Al Sharpton, and thank you again to everybody who tuned in to today's SALT Talk with the Reverend.
John Darsie: (43:59)
Just a reminder, if you missed any part of this talk or any of our previous SALT Talks, you can access them on our website. It's SALT.org/talks or on our YouTube channel, which is on SALT Tube. The SALT YouTube channel and website now has all of our panels from SALT New York 2021 that we'll be posting every couple weeks for the next several months. So if you weren't able to attend the conference, we've taken an approach of opening up that content to a wider audience. So definitely go to our website, subscribe to our YouTube channel to get those panels as well.
John Darsie: (44:31)
Please follow us on social media. Twitter is where we're most active, @SALTConference, but we're also doing more on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook as well. And on behalf of Anthony and the entire SALT team, this is John Darsie signing off from SALT Talks for today. We hope to see you back here again soon.