Can We Live 200 Years? The Science of Aging & Longevity with Dr. David Sinclair, Professor of Genetics, Harvard Medical School. Dr. Eric Verdin, Chief Executive Officer & President, Buck Institute for Research on Aging. Dr. Jennifer Garrison, Assistant Professor, Buck Institute for Research on Aging.
Moderated by Dr. Dina Radenkovic, Partner, The SALT Fund.
PRESENTED BY
SPEAKERS
David Sinclair
Professor of Genetics
Harvard Medical School
Eric Verdin
President & Chief Executive Officer
Buck Institute for Research on Aging
Jennifer Garrison
Assistant Professor
Buck Institute for Research on Aging
MODERATOR
Dina Radenkovic
Partner
The SALT Fund
TIMESTAMPS
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Dina Radenkovic: (00:00)
All right. Well, so welcome everyone to one of the most exciting panels of the conference. Who wants to die and be remembered for making high rates of return versus who wants to live forever? So today, we're going to discuss if we can actually live to 200 years. And if so, how? I'm joined by my incredible colleagues, Dr. Jennifer Garrison, who is an assistant professor at the Buck Institute, and also the founder of the Global Consortium for Reproductive Equality and Longevity, professor David Sinclair, professor of genetics at Harvard Medical School, and Dr. Eric Verdin, the CEO of the Buck Institute, the largest Institute in the world solely focused on the sciences of aging.
Dina Radenkovic: (00:50)
I think the increase in life expectancy has been a tremendous achievement. First, we broke the cycle of infectious diseases. We had improved sanitation. We then learned about behavioral factors like smoking and higher education, but we're now stuck with a population that is living longer, but not necessarily healthier. So my question to my panelists, and this is a question for everyone is what is the single breakthrough technology that you think will happen in this decade that will enable people to live longer? Eric, would you like to start?
Eric Verdin: (01:26)
Thank you, Dina. Thank you for having me. We live in extraordinary times in terms of biology and particularly the biology of aging. And in the last 10 to 15 years, we really have gained an incredibly different understanding of the aging process. So this has led to the identification of pathways, mechanism and also potential drug targets. And today, we have close to more than 10 drugs that actually are known to increase lifespan in a variety of animals. They not only increase lifespan, but also health span. And one of the most exciting aspects of this whole process of discovery is that today, we're starting to implement this in humans, and you're going to be seeing in the next 10 to 20 years, the development of a whole series of novel technologies with the potential of delaying aging.
Eric Verdin: (02:20)
If I have to think of a one single interventions that I think it's party calling attention is the idea of epigenetic reprogramming, and David is going to talk more about this. His lab works on it. My lab works on it as well. It is for the first time, the ability to revert the aging process, and this really has generated a lot of excitement. So if I think about where we are today after about 10 to 15 years of basic biology of aging, we're at an incredible time and I think- [inaudible 00:02:51]
Dina Radenkovic: (02:52)
Thank you. David, would you tell us more about that reprogramming? It sounds exciting.
David Sinclair: (02:56)
Well, thanks, Dina for having us here. Eric, thanks for the great setup. So yeah, I was asked what's the most exciting stuff and unfortunately, I had to say stuff that we're working on, but I truly believe that. So Eric and I have been working in this field for over 20 years, epigenetics of aging. What that means is the cells' control systems, how to turn on genes on and off. And we find that the changes over time can be used as a clock to determine how old we are biologically. But also, we think this system and the clock as part of it control the aging process, not just in the forwards direction, but in reverse. And in my lab, we can drive aging very easily in the forwards and reverse direction in animals, and we're going to be starting human trials, hopefully in the next couple of years.
David Sinclair: (03:44)
But the breakthrough is super exciting. We had a nature paper in December that described the ability to put in three genes that are normally only turned on in embryos, that in the adult animal, this is now a mouse, we could cure blindness by making the eye much younger. And it's a permanent reset. In fact, we have the mice die old, but with very young eyes, with perfect eyesight. And that's just the eye. We're finding in the field, Eric and others are finding that you can reprogram most tissues. In fact, I don't know of a tissue in an animal yet that cannot be reprogrammed and sent back 50%, 75% in their age. And this is not just a temporary reset. This is a full reset. And you could imagine in the future, we have that ability to reset our bodies, not just once or twice, but perhaps dozens or hundreds of times.
Dina Radenkovic: (04:33)
Fascinating. Jennifer, what would you pick?
Jennifer Garrison: (04:36)
Well, so I'm going to divert from regeneration and say that the thing that the breakthrough that's going to really extend healthy longevity is getting rid of menopause. So hear me out. Ovaries are very odd. In terms of the human body, they age at about two and a half times the rate of the rest of the tissue. So when a woman is in her late twenties, her ovaries are already showing signs, overt signs of aging while the rest of her body is essentially functioning at peak performance. So there's sort of like the canary in the coal mine for aging. If you think about it, this is an incredible model for accelerated aging. If you try to do a lifespan extension trial in humans, that timeline is way too long, a hundred years, right? But if you can intervene in ovarian aging, essentially, we're going to...
Jennifer Garrison: (05:32)
If we can figure out what causes ovarian aging, this is going to give us clues about aging and the rest of the body. So before I lose all of the men in the audience, it's really important to understand that a woman's reproductive span, so the age at which she goes through menopause is correlated with her overall lifespan. So what that means is that a woman who goes through menopause later in life will tend to live longer, but that also extends to her male brothers. So there's something going on that essentially is important for both men and women. And if we can figure out why ovaries are aging prematurely, what does that cue or biological timer that causes them so reproducibly to start to age in a woman's second decade, then that will tell us something about aging and the rest of the body and this is the key. I think this is the discovery. This is the breakthrough that will actually give us something that will extend lifespan.
Dina Radenkovic: (06:27)
Thank you, Jennifer. In another lesson I think we've learned is that biological aging is very important for COVID-19. So Eric, last year we published a paper that showed that frailty is more important for the risk of hospitalization and death than one's chronological age. And we just have the new paper, it will be out tomorrow in nature talking how some of these anti-aging interventions could potentially be used with our effective vaccines to boost the immune response. Could you explain the audience why we say that COVID-19 is a disease of aging?
Eric Verdin: (07:01)
Well, it turns out that the biggest risk factor, not for being infected by COVID-19, but in terms of the outcome, whether you're going to be hospitalized, whether you're going to be suffering from a lung insufficiency or whether you're going to be actually dying from the disease is really determined by your age. So aging is actually the biggest risk factor for your outcome in terms of COVID-19. Not only your age, but also there's a subset of patients who are at high risk, and these patients carry a number of disease that we actually call the chronic disease of aging. So it really points to the fact that the basic mechanism that underlie the aging process are actually playing a role in how you respond to this virus. The review that Dina was just referring to is actually discussing the alteration that happened in the immune system as we age, and there are two broad manifestations of immune aging.
Eric Verdin: (08:07)
One is a chronic state of inflammation, also called inflammation. And the second one is a defect, defect in adaptive immunity, which prevents you from actually responding to the virus in an appropriate manner. Both arms of the immune systems are go- [inaudible 00:08:25] in aging, and we're really trying to understand what are the implications of this, not only for COVID-19, but for also all of the other chronic diseases of aging. Now, the implications does not stop there because it turns out that if you are 70 years old, about 30% of age individuals will not respond to a vaccine. And so this has obviously implications on not only how you get sick, but also how you get protected. Now, the good news is we are predicting in this review that many of the interventions that we have identified that modulate aging pathways will also be playing a role in mitigating the adverse response that you might get to COVID-19. So I think there's a lot of optimism that these interventions are going to change the course of the epidemic in the longterm, and we're feverishly working on trying to implement those.
Dina Radenkovic: (09:20)
Fascinating. And I think then aging really becomes an issue of national importance. So David, perhaps you, because you recently published astonishing results that increasing healthy life expectancy for just one year would yield 38 trillion US dollars. Why are countries competing within this? Why don't we have an age race like we had the space race? Is longevity the next big thing?
David Sinclair: (09:49)
Right. Well, the numbers are astounding in this paper, we calculated with a couple of my colleagues in London, economists that just for the US alone, we said, one year would give us $38 trillion. If you extend 10 years, it's $365 trillion. These are numbers that are astounding, and money that can be put towards other things as well in solving climate change and education. So why aren't people paying attention to it? Well, the problem is that we've always thought of aging as something natural and unavoidable as opposed to diseases, but actually, aging is a medical condition. The World Health Organization has declared it. So, and increasingly governments, well, regulators across the world are looking at aging as a potential medical condition. But I still think most physicians think of aging as something you can do nothing about, but what we're here to tell you today is that's not true in the same way that in the early 20th century, we learn how to fight infections, and in the 1970s and eighties, how to fight cancer effectively.
David Sinclair: (10:45)
We're at the same stage with aging. And now that the technology has caught up and we are able to control this process, much more people and increasingly so, are interested in allowing doctors to prescribe medicines for aging, which would actually take care of a lot of the major diseases in the world because right now, the medical system puts band-aids on diseases that happen because of aging, but too late once they've already occurred. So is this the next big thing? Well, let me tell you. So the three of us on the forefront of this field. Our heads are spinning. The amount of interest just in the last few years has gone up exponentially by probably a hundred fold. The amount of money that's being put into this field now is over $20 billion just privately alone. The governments around the world are putting more money. Our field is growing. Young people are piling into the field, mathematicians, programmers, biologists. It's similar to the early days of flight. And I think in five, and certainly in 10 years, we'll gather at a conference like this and just remember that this was the beginning of something extremely important.
Dina Radenkovic: (11:52)
Fascinating. And you've published actually quite recently, that COVID-19 even accelerates aging. Could you maybe elaborate a little bit on the interplay of aging and immunity?
David Sinclair: (12:03)
Right. Well, for people who are not vaccinated, often when they hear that you'll look older than they rush out and get a vaccine. The risk to your body of getting covered is far greater than any potential side effects of the vaccine. What we know for sure is that the virus will accelerate a process called [inaudible 00:12:22], which is one of the causes of aging itself, one of the whole marks. So there's a lot of evidence actually, that the long COVID in particular is not just mimicking aging, but is actually aging itself, which is something that could lead to a lot of economic cost to the country a decade or two from now and certainly for individuals themselves who will be more susceptible to these diseases, lung diseases, heart diseases. So please try to get vaccinated if you haven't already because you don't want to have that process. But again, speaking to what Eric said is that aging is the root cause of most diseases that affect the world, including infectious diseases and it's something that we often don't appreciate.
Dina Radenkovic: (13:05)
Fascinating. Well, I think as a longevity doctor, I often get asked what are the things that I can do right now to extend and improve my longevity and health span? The thing that I often say is know your numbers. So even if we ask right now, we store facts about pretty much everything, but how many people even in the audience know their vitamin D status, their blood sugar, their cholesterol? Do you know these numbers? So often the advice that I give is know your numbers. As kind of leading scientists and physicians in this space, what would you recommend as things that people can do right now to improve their longevity as we wait for more scientific breakthroughs? I know Jennifer, would you like- [crosstalk 00:13:52]
Jennifer Garrison: (13:52)
Well, I remember once a magic pill and while there might be some coming down the line, I think that the best advice is to think about when you're eating. So I think there's really great evidence that the time at which you eat and the time that you eat during the day, essentially the hours during which you eat really make a huge difference in terms of how your body responds. So when we stop eating, the body goes into a process called autophagy, which is really important for cleaning out the gunk in cells. This only happens many hours after you stopped eating. And so essentially, compressing down the time when you're actually consuming food makes an incredible difference in terms of your metabolic function. So that's a very simple thing that people can do. It doesn't require any sort of pills. It doesn't require any sort of intervention. It's simply a behavioral thing. And I'm not suggesting to even change what you're eating, just to change when you're eating it.
Dina Radenkovic: (14:59)
Well, I completely agree. There are studies to show that even kill senescent cells and deliver improves blood sugar. So if we can stick to eight to 10, we should see some results. Eric, what would you say?
Eric Verdin: (15:12)
I'd like to make a couple of points before talking about specific recommendations. One is the realization that 93% of your lifespan and your health span, the healthy years that you can expect to live are determined by your lifestyle. Only about 7% from genetic factors that you've inherited from your parents. I think this has really incredibly important implications in terms of the fact that your health is in your hands. There's no fatalistic approaches to health. It is in your hand. The second aspect is that we live through an epidemic of chronic diseases right now in the elderly. You're familiar with all of these diseases, heart disease, cardiovascular disease, heart attack, stroke, cancer, neuro degeneration, Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer's, macular degeneration. The list goes on and on. All of these diseases, main risk factor is aging. Now, if we target the aging pathways, we target all of these diseases together and you can actually suppress or compress the number of years that you can expect to be sick in your life. So that being said, so what should you do?
Eric Verdin: (16:28)
I've realized that we are at a conference of investors, and I would like for all of you to look at your health the same way you look at your portfolio. I would be probably not incorrect by saying that most people actually invest a lot of time and resources managing their financial resources and very little in terms of their health. So I've been thinking about what are the lessons that we can learn from the financial world in terms of managing your health? And many of the rules are actually the same.
Eric Verdin: (17:02)
The first is you should be surrounding yourself by the very best talent in terms of advising you. I hate to say this, but I think traditional medicine is not really about prevention. So I would look for alternatives. The Buck Institute where Jennifer and I are working actually hopes to be in the future, one of these sources of information. So get information from the best, start early, and then go for the long-term. There's no quick gains. So be aware of fads. Be aware of people who promise you too much. So health is a process that you built throughout your life and eventually you reap the return at the end. I think these would be my advice.
Dina Radenkovic: (17:51)
Fascinating. I think people often think that aging is something to leave for later life, but we have actually very good studies. A lot of these metabolic processes and pathways get activated in adolescence, and there have been even randomized controlled trial, which is the best type of clinical study to show that even from the age from early twenties, we age at different pace for a single chronological year. So it is something that we should think about in any stage of life. David, what would you do? And I know you've also authored a book in which you shared a lot of your longevity practices that educated many people across the world about aging and longevity.
David Sinclair: (18:31)
What would I do, or what do I do? The cheat sheet, if you want to go, it's in my book, page 304 is some of what I do. My father and I have been... We're both scientists. So we can read the literature and we make assessments of what might work, what doesn't. I agree with what both Jennifer and Eric said, particularly that the intermittent fasting, I've adopted that over my life. These days, I'm even at the point where I eat only one meal a day if I'm not socializing and it's made a huge difference to how I feel and my energy levels. I just power through the day and then I eat a dinner at night.
David Sinclair: (19:09)
But absent that, let me say the other areas you can improve are move. I've got a standing desk. I walk. I lift weights in my bedroom at my desk, build up and maintain muscle mass. You lose muscle mass as you get older, of course, and muscle is important for maintaining hormone levels. There are longevity molecules that come out of muscle. And also if you fall over when you're old and you have muscle, you balance, you won't break your bones, which happens every 19 seconds in the US and that's close to a death sentence for an elderly person. So move.
David Sinclair: (19:43)
The other thing that I know many of you want to hear about are supplements. There are supplements out there that Eric and I work on, what's called NAD. It's a molecule that goes down as we get older and we need it to boost our defenses against aging, controls, the epigenome that I mentioned, that clock. Now, I'm not here to give advice on supplements. I don't recommend anything. Though, you can read more about it, but I would say that there are some supplements that are promising and there are some drugs that are really promising, very promising. Tens of thousands of people who have taken the drug Metformin, which is a type two diabetes drug to control blood sugar, time and time again in studies are shown to be protected against diseases, not just type two diabetes, but cancer, heart disease, and Alzheimer's, and even frailty.
David Sinclair: (20:32)
And there's a lot of interest in some studies that are ongoing that will test whether this is truly slowing down aging. But at the very least, these drugs are showing us that it very likely as possible that we can go on a regimen that your doctor could prescribe that would give an extra five, maybe even 10 years of healthier life. Besides that, if you just do what your doctor says, eat well, eat less, don't smoke, don't over-drink, get good rest, get friends, don't stress. That gives you 15 years of extra life compared to someone who doesn't do those things. It's easy. We just don't do them.
Dina Radenkovic: (21:05)
Fascinating. And any extra supplements that you personally take?
David Sinclair: (21:09)
Any supplement? Well, I'm on record. So I'll tell you. So resveratrol is the red wine molecule, 2003 have been taking it ever since. I'm now for the last 15 years, I think that is, I've been taking that. There's an NAD booster, which Eric and I have worked on. You can read about it. By the way, if you see my face on supplement websites, I don't endorse or sell supplements. It's people using my name without my permission, but I do believe that NAD levels are important for longevity.
David Sinclair: (21:40)
I also take Metformin. So I don't regret that. Biologically, I measured my biochemistry every few months, a company called Insight Tracker who I consult for. My calculated, let's call it estimated biological age based on those biomarkers has been going down steadily over 10 years. So I monitor things. And to Eric's point, you can't control or optimize what you don't measure. So we do need to measure things just the way we do with the markets. The idea of going to the doctor once a year seems medieval to me. We should be measuring our bodies a thousand times a second, which I can do with the BioMonitor and that's coming to.
Dina Radenkovic: (22:17)
Fascinating. Yes. Know your numbers. That would be the take home message. And I think what was fascinating is everywhere we're looking some of these drugs with anti-aging potential that you've mentioned, we've identified that they also affect female fertility and menopause. So my question to you, Jennifer is life expectancy is increased by two years every decade. It has stumbled in 180 years, but the age of fertility decline and menopause have remained static since introduction of medical records in 1800. Why is that? And why is it an issue that we should all care about? You mentioned earlier that we could use a vary in aging as a model to study aging, but what can we do about it right now?
Jennifer Garrison: (23:02)
We can put more money into scientific research towards understanding it, I think. but yeah, it's true. The age at which women goes through menopause... Essentially menopause makes a woman's body age faster. It really does accelerate aging. It increases a woman's risk of heart disease, stroke, cognitive decline, all sorts of things by a dramatic amount. And so what that means is that half the population is going to be living more than half their lives in the state of declined altered health. Right? So from a practical perspective, all women obviously should care about this issue, but from an economic perspective too, everyone on the planet should be thinking about this. Essentially, we've got right now, I think by 2025, it's estimated that there will be over a billion women worldwide in menopause. So in this altered health state, and that's more than 12% of the population.
Jennifer Garrison: (24:03)
So if you think about the economic costs from not just health-related issues, but also productivity decline, that's approaching a trillion dollars a year is what's being estimated. So from a practical perspective, if you're not concerned about your own longevity or the women in your lives' overall wellbeing, from an economic point of view, I think it's really important. But in terms of thinking about how we can attack this problem, truly we're right at the beginning of trying to understand why ovaries age prematurely. And I think there's some really promising things on the horizon, but we absolutely need to do more work in this area.
Dina Radenkovic: (24:49)
Fascinating. And I guess my probably last question for the panel would be, this is still a conference that is attracting a lot of capital allocators. What would you say is a definition of a longevity company? How can people identify a longevity company? Is it a company that is... Because aging is a risk factor for all chronic diseases? Is it a life sciences company? Is this something that's treating infectious diseases, even COVID-19? Is this a cure for menopause. Is this a company that is helping us make menopause optional? David, what would you say is a longevity company and how can we support that ecosystem?
David Sinclair: (25:28)
Well, I would start with looking at the science behind these companies. Scientists like us, we're publishing in the top scientific journals in the top 10. You want to find that because there's a lot of people who claim that they can do things and they're selling things, selling ideas, but you've got to start with good science. So aging research really is at the forefront of biology now. There've been two Nobel prizes awarded related to aging. There's probably more coming, but you got to start with that. That's the basis. And then of course, you look at the usual things. But what's exciting is that there are dozens of companies that are working on the science of longevity to make medicines. Now, these are not medicines that will initially be used to treat aging, unless the FDA suddenly changes its rules. I don't think that's going to happen for a few years, but it will happen, and those companies will be ready. And then there'll be some of the largest companies on the planet.
David Sinclair: (26:20)
But in the meantime, what we're all doing, and we have companies that are working on using the biology of aging to treat particular diseases. They can be rare diseases. They can be chronic, such as obesity, diabetes. They can be eye diseases, for instance, the reprogramming stuff, reversing blindness. And then you get on the market and the prediction that those drugs will be used by doctors to test other aspects of the diseases. Just like the statins for heart disease, it will start with a small, such as a familial hypercholesterolemia was Lipitor, and then it just blew up and became one of the world's best selling drugs and Pfizer became very wealthy. That's what we're expecting to happen here. But we have to stay laser focused. We cannot take on aging initially. We have to go for the fastest, most efficient way onto the market, which are often those diseases I mentioned.
Dina Radenkovic: (27:16)
Yes, and I think we've seen companies going for rare diseases as first indication, but hoping that these drugs will be able to have a much larger addressable market of basically everybody undergoing aging. Eric, any comments for investors in how to identify good longevity companies?
Eric Verdin: (27:33)
Yes, I think the first factor is the fact that we live in an aging population. As a good indication of this, last year for the first time in the US and in many Western countries, we're selling more diapers for adults than we're selling diapers for children. That's just a symptom of things to come. The number of people above 70, first is larger than the number of kids under five. If you look at countries like Germany and Japan, we see the writing on the wall is that by 2050, 40% of their population is going to be older than 65. So what this seismic demographic change represents as an investment opportunity is actually unprecedented. And I would encourage you if you haven't looked at the aging space to actually take a good look. There are going to be amazing opportunities, and we here are of course, focusing on the cutting edge, basic science companies that are going to be targeting the aging process, but there's a whole ecosystem of what happens in an aging society? How do you maximize the potential of all of its citizens?
Eric Verdin: (28:53)
With respect to what are these companies going to be developing? I think David made a really good point. Is aging a disease? I think there's been a lot of debate, whether it is truly a disease or not. And I think it's, for me, I try not to focus on this, but what the field has been doing is to actually redefine a whole series of disease that are associated with aging that had not been recognized as diseases in the past. I'll give you a good example. Sarcopenia, loss of muscle mass associated with aging occurs through some different degrees in different people. It is now recognized that indication. The inability of a person to respond to a vaccine, which we know occurs in 30% of people above 70 was not recognized as a disease, but now we're conducting clinical trials against these indications.
Eric Verdin: (29:46)
Thee loss of thymus, which is a gland behind your sternum, that actually contributes to the diversity of your immune system. Again, it was not considered a disease. We know it happens early as menopause. That is now being used as a clinical condition. So you can see over the next few years, we're going to be treating a whole series of conditions that were considered sort of part of aging in the past. And I think all of these drugs and discoveries have the potential to do exactly what we started with, which is to really increase the quality of our later years and hopefully, to not only have an increased health span, but also an increased lifespan and a more productive life.
Dina Radenkovic: (30:32)
Absolutely. And I think the one problem that I guess you mentioned, David is start with good science. What I've identified personally as a physician who then also went down the entrepreneurial and the investment side, is that actually, how do you then understand the science? And often, barriers to entry into fields like aging or longevity are much bigger for investors and often-[inaudible 00:30:54] certain things that can be more easily solved by software are just easier to understand. So it's an easier thing to invest in. So it's an easier thing to support. And here, we really need to break these barriers, and that's what we are so fortunate to have such an amazing panel at SALT.
Dina Radenkovic: (31:09)
SALT is really trying to push this life sciences effort because it's an issue of national importance, but you are also individually trying to solve similar problems. David, you're launching a podcast very soon. Eric, you're working with the Buck Institute. It's an amazing place. It's the largest Institute solely focused on aging. And then Jennifer, you could tell us a bit more about the consortium, right? You created this global network of scientists and researchers and entrepreneurs working on female aging.
Jennifer Garrison: (31:40)
Yeah. The consortium is meant to build the ecosystem essentially. So this field didn't really exist a few years ago. There were plenty of people working on reproductive biology, assisted reproductive technologies, plenty of scientists working on aging research, but very few in the middle. And truly if we're going to make any progress in this area, we needed to essentially build the ecosystem. The goal of the consortium is really to bring together novel operating ideas. We want to put creative scientists in the same room as entrepreneurs so that they can work together to take discoveries in the lab much faster to the hands of women. So part of what we're doing is trying to innovate around getting people who normally don't work together or talk to each other to interact. So that means scientists talking to physicians, talking to people in tech, talking to investors, and essentially bringing together all of the people who have an interest in this space.
Jennifer Garrison: (32:37)
So in terms of companies around longevity and aging research, I think, I'm not going to repeat what David and Eric said because they're exactly right, but I would say you can break it down into low-hanging fruit. So things like diagnostics, biomarkers, things that will tell a woman where she is along her reproductive span trajectory or where a person is along their biological aging trajectory. Those are really important. Things like supplements and what we would consider treating the symptoms of aging, those are also I would say easier things to tackle. But from my perspective, I think the really innovative and transformative companies are going to come from people who are trying to tackle the root causes, the mechanisms behind aging. And once we get those, then I think that's the moonshot.
Dina Radenkovic: (33:30)
All right. Well, thank you very much for your time for a wonderful discussion. And yes, we do hope to live to 200 years and beyond.