Dr. Akilah Cadet is the Founder and CEO of Change Cadet. Change Cadet provides people and companies with services that support anti-racism, diversity, inclusion, equity, and belonging (DEIB).
As a young Black woman, Dr. Akilah Cadet experienced judgment, "isms", and numerous barriers in the workplace. One day she thought, “what if I could change that?” and Change Cadet was started. Cadet, her last name, is a French term that means soldier. Change Cadet prepares individuals and companies to be soldiers of change in the workforce so there can be more women and people of color at the top. She wants everyone to feel empowered in their career. She advises tech startups from concept to staffing, facilitates strategic workshops, coaches leaders, and speaks at various engagements.
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SPEAKER
Dr. Akilah Cadet
Founder & Chief Executive Officer
Change Cadet
MODERATOR
Anthony Scaramucci
Founder & Managing Partner
SkyBridge
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
John Darsie: (00:07)
Hello everyone, and welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is John Darsie. I'm the managing director of SALT, which is a global thought leadership forum and networking platform at the intersection of finance, technology and public policy. SALT Talks are a digital interview series with leading investors, creators, and thinkers, and our goal on these SALT Talks is the same as our goals at our SALT conferences, which is to provide a window into the mind of subject matter experts, as well as provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future. And we're very excited today to welcome Dr. Akilah Cadet today to SALT Talks. Dr. Cadet is the founder and CEO of Change Cadet, a consulting firm which offers a broad array of anti-racism and diversity services, including strategic planning, crisis rebuilding, advising, executive coaching and facilitation, all services that we're very much in need of. We've always been in need of them, but I think at least a light is being shined on some of these issues even more so over the last couple of years.
John Darsie: (01:11)
Cadet, which obviously is Dr. Cadet's last name, is a French term that means soldier. As it's often an uphill battle for women and underrepresented communities to achieve success and equity in the workplace, Change Cadet prepares of soldiers of change to overcome these continuous battles so that individuals and companies can thrive, because as we have dug into the research on this, having diverse teams drives better outcomes for companies. Dr. Cadet has 15+ years of experience working in various organizations with both private and public sector companies. She literally has every degree in the book. She lives in Oakland, California. She has a rare heart condition, which she is open about. And she's a proud Beyonce advocate, but Dr. Cadet, let's be honest, aren't we all proud Beyonce advocates?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (02:00)
Very true.
John Darsie: (02:01)
Hosting today's talk is Sarah Kunst, managing director of Cleo Capital, a venture capital firm that she founded. She's going to host today's interview, and I'm going to pipe in when I have questions, so looking forward to an open conversation between the three of us. And with no further ado, I'm going to turn it over to Sarah to begin the interview.
Sarah Kunst: (02:20)
Hi. Thanks guys, super excited to be back on SALT Talks. So Dr. Cadet and I actually met in a similar format to this. We got to share a stage at a panel pre-COVID, and in the years since, we've become friends and co-conspirators, and so super, super excited to have her here today. So Dr. Cadet, why don't you start by telling us your story?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (02:47)
Of course. Thank you, John, thank you, Sarah, for having me. My story is unfortunately common for most black women, and that is this fun, fun time that I have with discrimination in the workplace, being bullied, being harassed, being too smart, not smart enough, somehow not black enough. All these different isms and barriers were coming up. And the final straw for me was being in a position where I really did feel like the Olivia Pope of diversity in the workplace where my boss, white male in his 60s, looked at me in a one-on-one meeting and said, "I didn't think you were that smart when I interviewed you, but you are smart." And I was like, wait, this is a doctoral level preferred position. My doctoral title is in leadership and organizational behavior. I was in that department. The person, my predecessor had one as well, and so it was just an very interesting thing to say.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (03:43)
And so I asked him why he said that. And he said, "Oh, I guess that's offensive. I'm sorry." I validated that it was, and then I would have to rebuild my relationship and rebuild trust with him. He decided to fire me the next week. And so in that moment, because I had experienced those isms, wanting to fit into someone else's box previously, and throughout my career, and upon reflection, I was like, "What can I do to fix that?" So, Change Cadet was actually a side hustle, and it was an outlet, a way to pour back into myself for not feeling valued in the workplace, and I decided to take a chance on myself and start this business. And six years later, this is what I do.
Sarah Kunst: (04:22)
Awesome. That is great. So, give us an understanding of some stats, or facts, or not-so-fun figures of what does this problem look like, what does... We hear diversity, we need more diversity or companies aren't inclusive, there's only... Even I was shocked when I found that the newly appointed CEO at Walgreens was the first black female CEO ever of a fortune 500 company. I assumed that somewhere around 480 on that there'd probably be some industrial company I'd never heard of that had a black female CEO once. So, give us some kind of structure around where are we at?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (05:13)
So, that's a big question, I'll just tell you that. To be as succinct as possible, we're in a position where people are dealing with the ramifications of the murder of George Floyd, right? Because we saw a huge shift. He was murdered on May 25th, and then in June, it's like, Ooh, performative allyship, the black square. We need to hire a diversity consulting firm. We need to do something. Wait, are we racist? So all of these questions were coming about. We don't want to be part of that. We want to celebrate our diversity. We want to add and have more diversity. And so with that shift, people are now in a position where they realize that there's opportunities for growth, continuous learning and unlearning. The black community spends $1.3 trillion in consumption, just buying something, loading something up, whatever it is, they are getting something, and they realized that not only there's a lot of power in the black dollar, but there's also a lot of power in the allyship dollar.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (06:12)
So, it's a non-black person or a white person who's like, "Hey, business that I partner with, what are you doing for diversity?" "Hey, company that I've been buying stuff for a really long time, what's your diversity strategy?" #PullUpOrShutup was a big campaign that's still going on where we're looking at companies who are saying, "You know what? We actually have to do better. So, we're going to be transparent about our executive leadership." What you're saying, Sarah, with the new first black woman CEO for a fortune 500 company, and wanting to be transparent. So, we're seeing a shift where companies want to hold themselves accountable to show up in the best ways. Now, as a result of that, we're seeing a lot of growing pains from companies who are figuring out what does that mean for them. In addition, there is this pressure that happens externally and internally that makes it really hard for leaders to decide where to go, and that's where there can be pause or conflict.
Sarah Kunst: (07:11)
That's super helpful. Thank you. So, I would love... I had this as a question, you've sort of answered it, but we'd love to dive a little bit deeper. How has your work... You've been doing this for six years. It's now been nine months since the murder of George Floyd and the following protests, how have things changed since then? How much did people care in 2019, which was only two years ago, January or February, 2019, versus January, February, 2021?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (07:42)
Yeah, that's a great question. It's changed because I can say white supremacy. Before, that wasn't something I could say. People want to learn more about what white supremacy means, realizing it doesn't mean, again, that it doesn't mean KKK or white supremacist, Proud Boys, it means that, wait, I'm benefiting from something that's ingrained in my society, my daily life, the country, the workplace. I'm realizing I may be adding to systemic oppression of other people who may not have the same privilege as me, and so I can be much more transparent about that. So pre-murder of George Floyd, or the Floyd effect as my father likes to call it, it was like, "Let's talk about diversity, let's talk about equity, let's talk about inclusion," but now we're having more conversations around belonging and anti-racism, how can companies be anti-racist, and that's the big shift.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (08:34)
You also get to see how some of your favorite brands and companies feel much more comfortable being transparent too. I love, love, love ice cream, but I really love Ben & Jerry's. So Ben & Jerry's is role modeling behavior, two white guys talking about white supremacy, holding people accountable, using their platform to educate, still selling ice cream, partnering with Know Your Rights Camp and Colin Kaepernick, and showing how it can be done. So, I can have much more transparent conversations. I can meet people where they are at, and help them get to a destination that would have been much more complicated before the murder of George Floyd.
Sarah Kunst: (09:11)
Yeah. Yeah. I definitely agree with that. So, where does change start?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (09:17)
It starts within. As cheesy as it sounds, it's very true, right? Because if you think about it, the people who have the most power in any company, for-profit, non-profit, whatever it is, are leaders, and leaders have the most influential change. So if leaders are not holding themselves accountable, then nothing will happen. And it's not just for diversity all the way through to anti-racism, it's the same for any type of organizational change that's out there. And so what we encourage our leaders to do for the clients that we work with, is for them to act accordingly, to show up and act, meaning accountability, communication, and transparency. So, a common thing that happens with leaders, and the change that has to start within, is that leaders want to be the best at things. We have ego that's around, we are experts at things, we don't want to necessarily admit when we're wrong.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (10:15)
But if you think about accountability, communication, and transparency, being vulnerable and saying, "You know what? I'm not an expert in diversity, so let me partner with my people and culture person," or maybe a head of diversity, if they have that individual. "Let me bring in a consulting firm to work on that. Let me role model that I'm also figuring stuff out too." And that is the true power. And so if individuals don't address their own experiences, their lived experiences, their internalized, externalized experiences that develop their bias, their stereotypes, and that's where discrimination lives, then none of the change will happen with diversity.
Sarah Kunst: (10:54)
Yeah. No, I couldn't agree more. So, tell us a little bit about how do you work with a company? What does it mean to work with Change Cadet or another similar organization? What does that mean?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (11:10)
It means you're going to have a lot of fun, you're going to be pushed, and you're going to be held accountable for what you want to do. So, a lot of our engagements fall in four buckets. So one is strategic planning. And so in strategic planning, we may be helping them from zero to figure out their diversity strategy, or a pivot, because we're still pivoting in 2021, that has not stopped. So, we'll do that. That will sometimes include a needs assessment. What data do you have? And data looks like exit interviews, surveys, any stats that we can garnish. Looking at policies, practices, procedures, to develop a roadmap for them, or help them develop a roadmap. We also provide executive coaching. So again, going inward. We work exclusively with people who have influence, because they have the most change, right? Me, broken record.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (11:59)
So we work with them either individually or in groups. Group coaching is incredibly effective, because going back to ego and transparency and role modeling, leaders can learn from each other. We also provide workshops. So workshops around power, and privilege, how to be an accomplice in the workplace, and the list goes on and on. Also act, we have a workshop on act, allyship journeys, so that people can learn what to do. We only do workshops because workshops focus on individual behavior. We do not do trainings.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (12:30)
In fact, training sets people up for success because it's like, "Okay, you're going to do this training for two hours, four hours, two days," whatever it is, and then you go back into your virtual or actual workspace, and then the culture isn't set up for what you learned in training. So, that's why we focus on individual behavior. And then the fourth thing we do that John shared, is we do crisis management and crisis recovery. So something goes down, and we come in, and we help them move past that, holds themselves accountable, problem-solve and correct behavior, that's really when I get to be the Olivia Pope, and it's very fun. And even though I can't go outside and have fashionable jackets and bags, I do from the top up.
Sarah Kunst: (13:10)
Yeah. And you can have popcorn and wine, and sometimes that's enough.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (13:15)
Oh yeah, definitely that's how I decompress. But honestly, we're different from a lot of diversity consulting firms, because one, I do use a lot of humor, and I do meet people where they are. We are not prescriptive. We aren't saying, "Hey, you have to do A, B, C to get to your outcome." That doesn't make any sense, because of so many different variables in the workplace. So, we have a reciprocal relationship that allows us to be experts and tell them things, but they're the experts of their culture, and we've learned from each other.
Sarah Kunst: (13:49)
I love it. So, when should companies bring in a DEI expert?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (13:57)
Well, I mean, there's multiple points of entry for us unfortunately. A lot of it is in crisis management, and we had a lot of that after the murder of George Floyd, because the attempt was, "I'm going to make a statement," internally, externally or both, and it didn't work out for them. So crisis management, helping them get on the right path. But the best time to bring in a diversity consultant is when you're thinking and ready for... You don't have to be 100% there, but ready for organizational change. It's all it is, is organizational change, are people open to that, so that you can start to think about your company future state. We aren't in the business of firing all the white leaders in executive roles, because people still have a business to run. I run a business, I totally understand that money is important, but we're in the business of that long-term game.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (14:45)
So, if they're ready for change, ready to be patient with themselves, and ready to hold people accountable, that's the best time to bring in a consultant. Otherwise they're putting people in a stop-start situation that either results in initiative fatigue, change fatigue, and for BIPOC, black indigenous people of color, it puts them in a position where they're like, 'Oh..." "Oh no, it's not going to happen." "Oh..." "Oh no, it's not going to happen." And that's hard to take, especially if some of those individuals, particularly black people from last year continuing to this year, are already carrying additional work, maybe tokenized doing the work, it's a real let-down.
Sarah Kunst: (15:23)
Yeah. Yeah. I agree. So does wanting to improve DEI in your organization mean that your organization is just a terrible bad racist place, and that if you show up, it means that they're horrible and basically beyond repair, or can you start before that?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (15:41)
You definitely start before that. People who feel like bringing in a consultant means that the company or the org is racist, that's not true, that means leadership was not ready to bring someone in. Again, the best time to bring someone in is like, we want to make sure that we are creating a place of belonging where everyone feels valued and appreciated for who they are, from the period of application, all the way through past their 30-60-90, and being... That is the exact goal. If people are saying, "We don't want our clients or customers or consumers or employees or team members to think that we're racist," they're actually centering themselves.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (16:22)
And because we know the majority of leaders are white leaders, we call that white centering. So it's like, oh, I'm uncomfortable. I don't want people to think that I don't know something, so I'm going to make it about myself, so I can go back to what I know. And that's not the goal. The goal is for that white person to feel valued and appreciated, and that Latinx or Hispanic person, or black person, or disabled person, someone from the LGBTQ+ community, to also feel this same way. It's not taking from other people, it's having that equality across the board.
Sarah Kunst: (16:58)
I love it. So, people should be working with orgs like yours early and often, and making this a real big commitment, financial and otherwise, but if somebody is watching this and they're like, "That's awesome, but I'm not the person in charge, I can't..." Or, "Budgets at my company are such that we can't bring anybody in. We can barely pay ourselves." What are some of the things that people can do immediately or freely, and where, hey, I have to wait to next year's board meeting or budgets, aren't a problem.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (17:32)
So, there's lots of things that people can do. And I just want to point out that the goal is to get to the point of institutionalizing diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, anti-racism in day-to-day. And that can be done with big things, and it also can be done with little things. So some of those little things, or the free 99 things I like to say, are one, setting of a resource library. Someone, anyone can open up a file... Hear me out, a file, box, drive, whatever it is, and people can share podcasts, articles, books, links, whatever, in this resource guide, so people can discuss it. Also for free 99, virtual lunch and learns, or in-person lunch and learns, people can talk about those very resources. Like, "Hey, this month, if everyone listens to this podcast at this lunch and learn, let's have a discussion about it. I don't know what's coming up for me. You don't know what's coming up for you, but let's set some ground rules so it's a safe space, and let's talk about it."
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (18:31)
Because it's having that opportunity to ingrain in daily practice in life, to celebrate that feeling and experience of learning and unlearning. Another thing that can be done that is pretty cost-effective, is that I have the Ally Nudge. And the Ally Nudge is text messages two to three times a week. Each day, you get a morning prompt that's educational, something, it's either a video of me doing this or a link to a podcast, or whatever it is, and then the evening you get an action prompt text directly correlated to what you're learning about in the morning. So we have police brutality, stuff around kids, definitions of anti-racism. And it's $5 per person, so people can sign up for that, it's very cost-effective to bring people in.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (19:20)
People also will do lunch and learn activities around that, book club activities around that. And then one thing that's also free and great is icebreaker. So icebreaker, there's modules that are already there, and people can go through training content and have conversations with each other, with video, without video, and discuss what's coming up from prompts that I set up. So if anyone's done a game and house party, or any type of card question game, it's done in a virtual capacity that can be done for a team or a whole department. There is an insane amount of free content that's out there that people can use to create, you just have to identify the point person or persons to do that. And last, people can create a culture committee or diversity committee, whatever they want to call it, and share that responsibility of educating the team.
Sarah Kunst: (20:10)
I love it. So talk a little bit about, we were talking about this the other day, there's definitely a feeling, I think, that for a lot of underrepresented minorities that were over-mentored and under-sponsored, so talk a little bit about the difference between those two things, and how people can be better sponsors, not just mentors?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (20:33)
Yeah. I mean, what we're talking about is a difference of action, and having actions and words match. If you're in some form of leadership, or you're established in one way or another, you've come to a point where you're mentoring other people. And mentoring is great. I love mentoring, it's fantastic. But when we think about sponsorship, it's taking it to the next level of action, meaning who can I actually connect this person to, what resources can I put into them, whether it's money or the network, so that they can build whatever they're building, or amplify in a way they need to be amplified. It's adding accountability to the mentorship part. It's so easy for us to be like, "Oh my God, let's [inaudible 00:21:12] a couple of times a year. It'd be great," to really being an accountability partner sponsorship of that person who needs to get somewhere.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (21:20)
This is incredibly important for people who don't have access to the network, are low-income, didn't go to a certain college. I went to all state schools, and look at me, it worked out. I don't come from clubs, I be anything. And supporting those individuals and doing what those types of colleges do to set individuals up for success. And I think the last thing that a lot of leaders will struggle with, is when you're in a position of sponsorship, it allows you to not only change someone's trajectory, particularly for BIPOC people, low-income people, people who don't have that certain amount of status, but it reminds you the importance of the privilege that you have, and the power that comes along with it. We all have privilege regardless of how we identify, but if you're using that privilege for good and ways to literally transform someone else's life, that's a wonderful way of free diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging in a one-on-one basis.
Sarah Kunst: (22:25)
Yeah. I love that. So tell us about your shirt. Tell us about Do The Work?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (22:33)
So Do The Work, you are all getting a sneak peek, these aren't even released yet, but they'll be coming out soon. I have Do The Work shirts, and now crew necks that will come out. And so I used to be a preschool teacher. That's probably why I am the way I am now. But there's lots of ways in which people learn. And so when you have a message on a shirt, it either creates conversation, it's a reminder, or it's a point of celebration. And so when you have that on, you're like, "You know what? I'm doing the work. I remind people to do the work. People are telling other people to do the work." And it's just a way to get that message out there. Do The Work isn't my thing, but it's a thing that needs to happen for all of us, not just for white people, not just for black people, everyone have to continuously do the work, to learn and unlearn, grow, and hold each other accountable.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (23:23)
I also have Keep Being Amazing, which is my mantra, which I need, because this work is incredibly heavy and hard to do. I'm a black woman. I'm traumatized on the regular, just talking to clients, and so I remind myself to keep being amazing. It's also on my phone case, just to keep being amazing. And it's the same thing if people see that message, because it is hard, particularly for people who are new to this. If it's hard, they can remind themselves to keep being amazing. If black people can find ways to celebrate themselves, and through all the adversity that we have in America, keep being amazing, it's a powerful thing.
Sarah Kunst: (23:59)
I love it. Awesome. John, what questions do you have?
John Darsie: (24:03)
I have a lot of questions, but one of the things that's been great for me, I grew up in a city, Durham, North Carolina, that is very diverse. And it's actually ironic that in a state that I would say is a little more of a red state, you could say, North Carolina, I actually grew up in an environment where there was more mixing of races, and I was exposed, I had friends of all races, colors, and creeds. But then you go to places, I live in New York now in Long Island, where there's this homogeneity that exists. And it's not necessarily a conscious decision that people make like, "I don't want to be around Hispanic people, or I don't want to be around black people," but people just settle into a comfort zone, and they don't necessarily have any motivation to get out of it, and they're not conscious of the subtle racism that exists in everyday life when they walk into a store and somebody looks at them, or when they're walking across the street and somebody moves out of the way because they don't want to be near them.
John Darsie: (25:00)
And I think the conversation that was started by some of these tragic events that have happened over the last couple of years, in a way, people in the black community in particular, stepped up to the plate and said, "We're no longer going to accept the status quo." I think it's been amazing to see. But in terms of the hiring processes that companies go through, I've always found it interesting. And there's been a lot written and spoken about in terms of colorblind hiring practices, and truly eliminating unconscious biases that exist. You talked about your former boss, Dr. Cadet, who made a statement, an older guy, I'm going to be nice to him and say he's old-fashioned, but people have just these unconscious biases that exist. Some people say them out loud, and some people don't.
John Darsie: (25:42)
But when you're going through a hiring process, let's say you don't take the step to have an affirmative action style of hiring process where you're going out and saying, okay, we're an organization that's 80% white, let's hire 10 black people to balance that out so that our board doesn't get mad at us. How do you truly take it to a colorblind hiring process and ask questions and interact with people in a way that you're eliminating these preconceived notions that you might have in your head?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (26:10)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, first I want to say, I miss New York. This is the longest I've gone without being there. I'm Haitian, so half my family is there. I heard it's doing well. And the homogenous-
John Darsie: (26:26)
[inaudible 00:26:26] We've had a tough time in COVID, but hopefully it bounces back. And I love this city, despite being a little bit of a country boy, but I want to see the city bounce back obviously.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (26:35)
You made the big switch. I left Sacramento, California to be in the bay, and let me tell you, I was like, "Wow, this is a real downtown." It was a shift that was there. So it's not about affirmative action, it's not about being colorblind, because when people are doing colorblind hiring practices, that's the same as saying, "I don't see color." And when people say, "I don't see color," I always ask them, "What do you do at a stoplight? Is it just all red lights for you?"
John Darsie: (27:05)
It sounds like something Michael Scott would say on The Office.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (27:08)
Yeah. It's episode two when they do the diversity day, two or three or something like that, which is a great episode, teaching moment, free tool, Sarah. We can have a discussion around that. So, when people are saying, "Colorblind, I don't see color," what they're saying is, "I'm so privileged, that I don't want to consider that at all. I'm ignoring what the experience is like for myself or for Sarah." Not saying this of you, John, but that's what comes up from companies. And so when you do have companies that are 80, 90% white, what happens is the dominant culture of that workplace is white. So as soon as they hire someone like us to come in, we are already othered. We're going to receive those microaggressions that you're talking about, those little statements and actions, crossing the street like, "How do you... Is that all your hair? And how long does it take to curl it like that?"
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (27:59)
Not realizing that this is what my hair looks like after I wash it. Those types of statements, those small percentages of BIPOC people will have to deal with that all the time. So the way that companies should think about their hiring practices, their recruitment practices, is one, determining a metric that's realistic. Again, like I said earlier, don't just fire all your white leaders, that doesn't make any sense. But as you think about succession planning, who do you have lined up that can go into that role? How are you thinking differently? Take some time to look at middle management. Middle management is a great way to not only coach someone, but to get to know how they work to move them into senior and executive roles. So think about having recruitment around in that area, but the most important thing what you said, John, is to look at ways to minimize bias.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (28:49)
You can not completely get rid of bias. It's just hard to do. I'm a twin, I'm biased towards twins. If someone said they're a twin in a interview, we are going on a tangent. Are you older or younger? How many minutes apart? Brother or sister? Do you like each other? That's a whole thing. So there's value in that, and it's a positive thing, but it's done in a negative way to keep hiring people that look like you, and look like you ties back to the majority of the workplace, then that's an issue. So, what are some questions that people are asking in the interview process? What of the application? What do they have in there about their diversity statement, or how they're on a diversity journey? Are they making their application already biased in a way that says you have to have four years of education, or can you have lived experience? Do you need to have a technical degree or not? Do you a suggestion for timeframe or someone open to learning? And all of those are ways in which people can work to diversify their workplace.
John Darsie: (29:50)
That's great. And you can strip out the company names here obviously, I don't want to break anyone's privacy, but are there examples where you've either gone into a crisis situation, or it could be somebody who it wasn't a crisis, and you came in and you helped re-engineer their culture in an effective way, the way that I think you would hope and dream to change organizations, are there any specific case studies that you could talk about where it worked really well so people could visualize what that looks like if they're sitting here watching, and they want to undergo this change, but they don't know what the path is to getting there?
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (30:26)
Yeah. I mean, so the wonderful case studies we have like the Disneyland example, if you will, is that the highest level leader is on board. They're like, "Look, I may be part of the problem. I'm white. I don't know. How can we get better aligned to be more diverse?" So, when we work with leaders like that, automatically we're changing the recruitment process, automatically in addition to the recruitment process, the interview process, we'll have always two people interviewing minimum, because when you have two people interview minimum, then it minimizes bias. Because if someone's like, "Ooh, that Akilah reminds me of this person I dated, so thus therefore I'm not going to listen to them." The other person's going to be like, "Well, actually they were really likable." And so it's a way for accountability in that process. And then we will automatically have external and public statements, diversity definition, so diversity terms of definitions, updated values, and improved policies and procedures.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (31:27)
So when we get to do that with our clients, the outcome is everything, and that stems again from the executive leader. We've had situations where I've had to be the Olivia Pope and come in and do crisis management, and that is harder, because that means that at least two leaders didn't agree on the same outcome of how to respond to something. So for example, anytime there's... I hate to say anytime, but when there's a tragic event that happens, whether it's the insurrection or a murder of a black person or [inaudible 00:32:01] or whatever it is, we always tell our clients that they have to have boiler plate templates ready to go, to email their team so they can remind them, "If you need screen-off time, if you need to take time off, you can talk to your manager."
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (32:14)
You have employee assistance programs. "We're going to have a chat with the diversity committee later this week." We'll have those messages. So, we had a client who did that perfect, beautiful message, "Sign off for the rest of the day. It's too much." And then that leader kept working, kept sending emails. So, you can only imagine, both of you, what that's like, when it's like, I have the permission to just figure out what's happening right now, just to take care of myself, and then feel like I'm behind, and now I need to do that. So as soon as we have leaders who aren't ready to role model the behavior which they've communicated, again, the actions and words aren't matching, that is incredibly challenging. So, that means our engagement may actually extend to help with that behavior change.
John Darsie: (33:00)
Well, that's fantastic. And I'm so glad... One of the reasons why we brought Sarah in as a guest host is we wanted to meet new and different types of people that wouldn't necessarily be the first people that we called. And by us meeting you and getting to know you and exposing our audience to different points of view, we hope to create virality of these types of perspectives and these types of initiatives that I feel like are accelerating in the wake of some of these tragic events, as you mentioned, but obviously there's a huge hill to climb and we need more allies and more soldiers of change, or Cadet's of change, if you will. Darsie, my last name, has French origins as well from a certain region of France, so we're brother and sister, Dr, Cadet-
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (33:42)
Love it. It's like [inaudible 00:33:42]. It was fantastic. Yeah.
John Darsie: (33:42)
We're brothers and sisters, so thank you so much for joining us.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (33:48)
We are, for sure. Yeah, we both, again, have great hair.
John Darsie: (33:49)
Yeah. Thank you for having an open mind and... Thank you very much. I appreciate that. My mother would agree. But anyways, thank you so much again for joining us. Hopefully we can do more business with you in the future, both at SkyBridge and introducing you to other people in our community, and we can get you to one of our live events as well. I think it's also something that we've struggled with in industry, the financial industry, that, let's be honest with ourselves, whether it's venture capital or hedge funds, overwhelmingly white, and it's just hard to break. It's almost like trying to break the cycle of poverty, breaking the cycle of extreme whiteness in these industries where we try to put people of color and women on our stages, at our conferences, without it being tokenism.
John Darsie: (34:33)
And we've gotten better at that, but we can definitely do a better job. And the more people like that we put on stages, and the more people like you that come to our conferences and talk about these things, the more people of color, and the more women feel comfortable showing up, and it feeds on itself and has a sort of a snowball effect. So, that's what we're looking to create. We've done better at it, and I think we do better than a lot of people in the industry, but again, we have a huge way to go to improve everything that we're doing, so thanks again.
Dr. Akilah Cadet: (35:00)
You're very welcome. And I just have to say the allyship that's happening is fantastic. The hardest clients to work with, or they aren't ready, are typically hedge funds, and the financial space for those very reasons. So what you're doing is really important to inform them of different ways in which they can show up, either doing things for free, or bringing in the consultant. And then Sarah is always doing things. In partnership, or we work together, she's keeping me abreast of things, and any way I can step in and help her out in any way is great. But just her being in her space is an act of resistance, but it's another way to change the way people are thinking about financing, so thank you both for your wonderful allyship.
Sarah Kunst: (35:44)
Thank you.
John Darsie: (35:45)
Well, thank you again, Dr. Cadet, and thank you Sarah again for bringing all these great guests to us here on SALT Talks, and for hosting these talks. And thank you everybody for tuning in today, just by tuning in and watching this episode and watching it all the way through. I think sometimes there's people when these topics come up at a conference or on a digital interview like this, some people turn, they don't turn the channel, because they don't want to feel the discomfort that comes with confronting some of these issues. So, thank you everybody for watching and tuning in, you're contributing to the betterment of society by doing that. And just a reminder, if you missed any part of this talk or any of our previous talks, including several that we've done with Sarah, you can both access our entire archive of SALT Talks, and sign up for all of our future talks on our website at salt.org/talks.
John Darsie: (36:30)
Please follow us on social media. We're on Twitter, we're on Instagram, LinkedIn and Facebook, and on YouTube is where we host all of our videos for free. Some people in the industry gate content and try to sell subscriptions for these types of conversations. We don't believe in that at all. We want to make all these interviews that we do open to the public, and a educational resource for people, not just in the financial industry, but in our communities as a whole. But on behalf of the entire SALT Team, this is John Darsie signing off for today. We'll see you back here again soon on SALT Talks.