“Human behavior gives you the right information that will actually create the solution.”
Amal Dokhan is CEO of Global Entrepreneurship Network (GEN) Saudi Arabia. Dokhan is one of the early innovation and entrepreneurship educators and facilitators in the MENA region.
A Stanford course in design thinking offered a simple yet profound lesson for marketers and entrepreneurs: by focusing on the underlying human motivations, one can determine the solution. It requires a methodology to process and ultimately apply, but human behavior provides the most powerful data points for any business. “[Design thinking] will change something in the way you actually address problems, in the way you address strategies and the way you understand designing anything in life, even within a small organization.”
LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE
SPEAKER
Amal Dokhan
Chief Executive Officer
GEN Saudi
MODERATOR
Anthony Scaramucci
Founder & Managing Partner
SkyBridge
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Rachel Pether: (00:08)
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is Rachel Pether, and I'm a senior advisor to Skybridge Capital based in Abu Dhabi, as well as being the MC for SALT, a thought leadership forum and networking platform that encompasses finance, technology and politics. SALT Talks, as many of you know, is a series of digital interviews with some of the world's foremost investors, creators and thinkers. And just as we do at our global SALT conference series, we aim to empower really big important ideas and provide our audience a window into the mind of subject matter experts.
Rachel Pether: (00:45)
Today, we'll be focusing on innovation and entrepreneurship in the MENA region. And I'm very excited to be joined by Amal Dokhan, the CEO of Global Entrepreneurship Saudi Arabia. Amal is one of the early innovation and entrepreneurship educators in the Middle East. She's managed multiple startup and corporate accelerators in Saudi, leading thousands of entrepreneurs to commercialize their ideas and access the market. Amal has studied at both MIT and the University of California Berkeley, and she is a frequent speaker at conferences around the globe. So Amal, thanks so much for joining us today.
Amal Dokhan: (01:24)
Thank you so much for the invitation. I'm very pleased to be here today.
Rachel Pether: (01:29)
No, we're really excited to have you on and we've had a discussion previously, and you have such an interesting background. So maybe you can tell me a bit about your personal story and your upbringing.
Amal Dokhan: (01:41)
Sure. I mean I started obviously, not in the place where I am today, and not completely connected to it. So I started in the education field for about 10 years. And maybe starting in the education would give you a lot of skills that nobody would actually think it may relate to entrepreneurship or innovation at some point in life, but to me, everything is connected. I think after that period of time, I moved to study business in 2009 in Dubai. And I think through doing that master's degree, it started to open something different and I started the first company, and then the second company. And then so I moved actually to seed funding at King Abdullah University of Science and Technology. And I think from that, it was the platform moving forward to what I do today.
Amal Dokhan: (02:34)
But I mean, at the early childhood, that's part of something that I said in one of the TED Talks. I was diagnosed with a thyroid cancer at that age, and living through that over the years made me want to do so many stuff and made me want to achieve so many stuff. And maybe that's where that problem kind of solutions type of thinking, it's like that there's always a way out of any situation, but years passed by and today, all I do is basically work with startups, with entrepreneurs in the MENA region, and to do programs with, around VCs and around angel investors, and all of that. So I know sometimes things don't look really connected, but maybe somehow they are.
Rachel Pether: (03:26)
No, I love those points that you made about everything being connected. And also thank you for sharing that personal story of yours. Now, I know that you did a really interesting course at Stanford on design thinking. So maybe tell me a bit more about that, and some of the key learnings and then we can look at the applications of those and how you've incorporated them now.
Amal Dokhan: (03:46)
Sure. So in the early 2013 or 14, I actually joined a course in design thinking. I think what was interesting about that course is I went there really not expecting anything in particular. It just excited me because my master's was in strategic marketing. And I actually recommended that this is a great course for marketers. So at that time, I just started working at the Entrepreneurship Center. And I think what fascinated me is how simple is the idea of focusing on the main reasons of why everything happens, and how it could derive solutions that could basically change communities and it could change societies and it could create these solutions that we all look for.
Amal Dokhan: (04:31)
And there is really no mystery about it, because it is all about the data collection that you get. And I think the methodology of design thinking could change anybody if they understood it the right way, understanding that human behavior is the source of it all. Human behavior gives you the right information that will actually create the solution. It will help you to figure out what they need, what are their pains, what is the source of the reasons of why they act and behave in a particular way, and it will become your compass of identifying the needs of these people.
Amal Dokhan: (05:08)
And it's like when people receive the solutions, like, "Oh my God, that's it. It feels like it was meant for me." They just made it because they realize why I do this. And it's not just the statement. Actually, most of the big companies and the successful startups, they understand the value of understanding the social part, the behavioral part, the emotional part of why people do it. So that was the initial exposure to the methodology. And what actually shocked me a lot is when I went there, and I saw that in the same course, we were 72 people that I've seen companies for, like Google, for example and 3M. And I was like, "These are companies that we look at like idols." They're the source of innovation, and why would they send their people to get such a course?
Amal Dokhan: (05:57)
And my coach was actually from General Electric. So it was interesting to understand, it just changed so much that this innovation piece and design thinking in particular, is something that anybody can use at any place at any phase of life. And it will change something in the way you actually address problems, in the way you address strategies and the way you understand designing anything in life, even within a small organization. And it will certainly get you to better results in a shorter amount of time, with much more efficient budget, and producing simply very feasible and viable solutions.
Amal Dokhan: (06:39)
And I think that's what I brought back with me when I came back to Saudi was not just the methodology. It was just a shift in the mindset, that when I came back, I would remember I was still jet lagged. And I arrived to my team, and they said, "Why did you come to the office?" I said, "I just got something amazing. We're going to start working on new programs now. We're going to turn things around." And I think that's how things have served later on, when we started working in KAUST, together towards creating different solutions for the community, and for corporates, and even for university students as well.
Rachel Pether: (07:19)
That's great. And I completely agree, you don't need to be an official entrepreneur to have this entrepreneurial mindset. And I do want to dive a bit deeper into what the Saudi market looks like now. And it's grabbed a lot of headlines with the PIF and the SoftBank Vision Fund, and some of the other mega funds, but you went back to KAUST in I believe, like 2013, and it was very progressive back then for the them to be thinking in this way. So what kind of drove that approach seven years ago, before it had really taken off in Saudi Arabia?
Amal Dokhan: (07:54)
Well, I think Abdullah University's built on science and research. So it's progressive in the way it was built basically. And it was an ultimate dream to change the norms and everything we do in Saudi Arabia and the region, and to reflect that image about Saudi Arabia and about the efforts that are being done as well. And I think what's interesting about KAUST is it contained all and it ticked probably all the right boxes at that time, because, first of all, you've got multiple nationalities that are studying there. So you don't have really an overcapacity of a certain country over the other. You've got everyone, you've got the Far East, you've got U.S., you've got Europe, and all these students in one place, something must happen with diversity.
Amal Dokhan: (08:42)
And that's probably one of the major things that we really need when it comes to innovation and getting these ideas. I think the second point is the fact that these people are trying to change the norms and push the frontiers in certain matters in research that are progressive again, like in terms of agriculture, in terms of biotechnology and water solutions. You're talking of solar and clean tech.
Amal Dokhan: (09:10)
So I think it's built on innovation by nature and by design. And that kind of diversity started to produce a lot of research and a lot of intellectual properties. And maybe at that time when I came to KAUST, there was an Entrepreneurship Center, but we had no accelerator at that time. And it was a very good time where I actually came there because there was a lot of talks. It's like, how do we commercialize the ideas? There's great solutions that are being developed in the labs. There is wonderful minds and brains that are working together. How do we bring this to the market?
Amal Dokhan: (09:49)
And the solution came as through finding a mechanism of commercialization and the vehicle was the Entrepreneurship Center and basically, the accelerator programs which didn't start like that, it started with a program and a course, the ones who came at the beginning, they used to apply for the Seed Fund department. And I think that's a great thing, because they used to provide that seed funding for these companies.
Amal Dokhan: (10:14)
This whole thing evolved over time to create the accelerators that formerly actually is working and operating until today. But KAUST has a unique face that it was unique by design, people looked at it as an inspiring beacon in the kingdom as a new way of doing education, coed at that time, we didn't have coed in other places as well. And then it's a different way of managing it. And it was in a beautiful space over the sea, like the classrooms would have a view over the shore, the Red Sea. And you're doing research on the Red Sea. So you're doing the marine research, you're actually doing the water desalination. So you've got the sources, you're not really doing something that's not practical. It's pure practicality.
Amal Dokhan: (11:02)
And then you've got Jeddah is the closest city and maybe other cities where you can experiment. So I think it's just about ticking some of the red boxes that have created this kind of vibrant place that simply inspired people by nature, and it became a destination as people came to Saudi, it could be politicians, it could be even scholars. Any kind of guest would come and visit KAUST at that time.
Amal Dokhan: (11:28)
So it was by design something inspiring to people, and we just filled the blocks by the programs, by the things that we've designed later on. And one interesting thing, everyone used to say, "How are you going to let people dry for one hour and a half to come to this university, which is so far away, and then are they going to travel?", but it was interesting, the minute we opened it for the community, people came and they don't want to leave. They started to hang out in the space. And that made us actually make a bigger space afterwards where we can have the classrooms and the spaces for the startups. So everything that's formerly done in other places, I think it came organically. And then basically, we started to have all these structured programs that so many have followed later on in the rest of the kingdom.
Rachel Pether: (12:21)
Yeah, I think it's fascinating what you said about KAUST. I've seen, unfortunately, I've only seen pictures of it. But it really does look like an incredible sort of ecosystem. Maybe firstly, give me an overview of what you currently see in the entrepreneurship market in Saudi, and what excites you most given that you've been working in this space for a number of years now.
Amal Dokhan: (12:43)
Right before I come to the, actually the Zoom call, I was at the Ministry of Investment, and it was, we've had the best discussion ever, because we were just reflecting on the future and the things that have happened. And I think in simple words, it's one of the best things that are happening in Saudi is how the entrepreneurial scene is evolving in a massive way. I think when we look at Saudi years and years ago, we used to have so many traditional businesses, the family businesses and all of these stuff, but we haven't seen a lot of tendencies from the youth to look into starting a company and not go to a certain job, for example, all of that.
Amal Dokhan: (13:24)
Today, it's becoming the talk of the town. Everybody is considering an entrepreneurial route or an entrepreneurial exit from their job, for example. So it's becoming very normal that you see somebody who's working on a particular job. And then on the side, they're building a company. So they're just waiting for that company to reach a stage where they can do that job. And that we haven't seen from executives before. We haven't seen that in people that work in the government, for example, but it's happening now.
Amal Dokhan: (13:56)
And the reasons for this is that Saudi is becoming like a heart of transformation, like that machine that's transforming and evolving in a speedy manner. And that only happened because of the support of the government to make this a reality. When the vision started in 2016, it kicked that new dream of 2030, where people got inspired by the idea itself, and then it took years for people to understand and in the past two years, started to witness that huge jump, and it actually materializes in results because you see it in the number of startups that are entering the market, the number of startups that are receiving investments, the number of venture capital funds that are emerging and not just Saudi venture capitals, actually the foreign VCs that are coming to Saudi Arabia and they're establishing their headquarters here.
Amal Dokhan: (14:51)
So I've seen a Chinese fund. We've seen other U.S. based and all of these are coming and looking at establishing whether a regional HQ or basically, a branch in Saudi Arabia. Why this is happening again? It's yes, we've mentioned the government. But at the same time, we've actually witnessed transformation and the mindset of addressing a startup as a proper career path. It's becoming more acceptable by families, it's becoming more acceptable by people that maybe never looked at it. And I mentioned the story before, I said when we used to go in public places, people would talk about maybe different topics that are social topics. Today, everywhere, it just turned into, it looks like a startup co-working space, even in the malls, even in the coffee shops, in the restaurants.
Amal Dokhan: (15:43)
Everyone just moves around, and you hear and due to the nature of customer discovery, we've got used to listening, listening to the voice of the youth, listening to the voice of like people that are looking into starting businesses, and you just see excitement and hope, and there is withdrawal models that started to materialize today. But there is also more to be done. And we understand that we're still at the beginning of building that ecosystem. It took years for us to establish the right programs, to establish that change in the mindset, to include entrepreneurship as a course in the universities, for example, to have it in some of the schools.
Amal Dokhan: (16:25)
And that's already happening. We think that this is going to pick up and change over time. But currently, we can say it's in a healthy situation where it's also attracting startups from outside Saudi to come and set up in Saudi. And there is a lot of incentive programs that are created for both investors and entrepreneurs to come and set up in Saudi. So there is a lot of tax waivers, there's a lot of incentives for visas and easy licensing and reduced fees, all of these stuff and programs that receive these people, plus the Ministry of Investment is also looking ahead and have more to be released in the next FII, which is that Future Investment Forum, that's going to happen hopefully, when everything is fine, by next January, here in [inaudible 00:17:20].
Rachel Pether: (17:21)
And I think it's obviously great to have that government support. And one thing that I've noticed here in the UAE is that all it really took was a couple of quite successful exits. And we had Uber and Careem and Amazon and Souk. And I think that also helped shift the mindset of people to oh, this could be a really successful business. So have you seen that people, as you say that becoming more accepting of this as a proper job as it were, and actually wanting to do this as a career.
Amal Dokhan: (17:57)
It's happening a lot. And when you talk about exits, I mean, there's a couple of companies that have been acquired. There's a couple of mergers that happened. There is a couple of exits through the capital markets, which is another piece of the ecosystem as well, which is easing the process for companies to apply and to exist either in the parallel market or in preparation to be listed as well. So there is, I think what we're looking at is that kind of a journey that starts by the change of the mindsets at the beginning. And that's through awareness programs, which Monshaat, the small and medium enterprise authority is playing a huge role with the events, the programs, the connectivity, the hubs that are scattered around the kingdom, just to create that kind of inspiration.
Amal Dokhan: (18:45)
And people can go and talk to anybody if they have an idea. So these are like the jobs of the hubs that are existant in Saudi and then later on, it's just we need more programs. And we know we have accelerator programs, but we need more. So at least if I took that career choice, I know if I cannot do it on my own, there is someone who can support me. There is a group that I can join. There is a network that I can be part of. And sometimes you need the six months or the three months journey of an accelerator, and sometimes you don't. You're just able to pick it up yourself. You have the right people around you, you can build the right team and carry on with it.
Amal Dokhan: (19:23)
But the only thing that you can never, let go of is just the right network. Because at the end of the day, you will need to access markets, you will need to lobby for your idea, you will need to make sure that you're being visible in the right way so investors can take notice of you as well. And moving after that, it's just the creation of the venture funds that we have witnessed kind of and I don't think it's precedented in that short time. It's really very impressive to see that. But that created another push that we still need to work on, increasing the number of startups whether from Saudi or outside Saudi Arabia, because now the amount of investment money or venture capital money still needs more in the pipeline, so we can witness more investments and hopefully more exits in the near future.
Amal Dokhan: (20:20)
Part of that is recently, like two weeks ago, almost a week ago, we were looking into what are the pieces that are needed at that early stage. So we obviously need more accelerators, maybe we need grants for MVPs, for minimum viable products at the pre-seed stage, which is one of the most crucial ones that could stop a startup from continuing, if I'm not able or I cannot rebuild that product to the beginning.
Amal Dokhan: (20:45)
So we started to look at the angel investing scene. And although that existed, we've got one of the oldest angel groups here, seven years old, Oqal. And we still need more, there's a lot of members in it and they're doing their job into looking and screening and doing the diligence, and then presenting these companies to basically to the community and the members. But I believe we need more of these angels that look into a different diversified approach into the top of startups that they look at, and would love to see people that could invest in a pitch deck maybe, because they know that these people are willing to do it. And we always say that angel investing is about believing in the people, believing that they can actually bring it to the market, that no matter what happens throughout that journey, they're going to pivot and change. And that's the essence of angel investing.
Amal Dokhan: (21:38)
And I did an interview with Brad Feld. And he said it's all about empathy. You got to empathize, you got to feel what they're going through. And then you know is it in need of a network? Is it in need of an introduction? Is it in need of injecting more cash here and there? So it becomes not like the VC relationship to the startup, which is more on a board level, more structured, and all of that. It's a very friendly/mentorship, sort of like relationship, we want more of that. And that's why we're doing a lot of activities to train angel investors to network, angels with entrepreneurs, and to also tell a lot that this could be a choice, even if you haven't done it, you can do it with someone else, you can try to be part of that network and see if this is something exciting.
Amal Dokhan: (22:27)
But to get more, we need to create more success stories, obviously and excerpts to show that people have gotten something out of it, but there is a lot that's happening also in that scene in particular, because we know that this is how most of the ecosystems were supported at the earliest stage level, like even most of the research based companies that were pure scientific, maybe hard to commercialize, were actually funded by people that were fans of that type of research where they cared about the cause. So we're trying to ignite that and connect it and convey it to the startups and hopefully, they can both speak the same language. And that connectivity becomes easier to bid on. So there's a lot of plans that we're actually working on in the coming two months to also incentivize that part.
Rachel Pether: (23:22)
Fabulous. And we've had a number of audience questions coming in already about the entrepreneurship system and also on mentorship. But I would just like to ask a question on the mega funds that you talked about. I listened to a really interesting podcast a couple of weeks ago now, and it was talking about the risk and the downside of mega VC funds, taking WeWork as just one example of kind of too much capital going into one company. Do you see that as a risk given the sort of stage of the evolution currently in the Saudi market? Or are they allocating fewer, smaller amounts of capital into more companies?
Amal Dokhan: (24:04)
Yeah, so most of what we see today is in the pre seed and the seed stage, because this is like an emerging market. So most of it is in the early stage, and the average size ticket of a fund is about $5 million. So we're not really hitting harder than the number of or the size of investment yet. We don't see that much of like the companies requiring that amount of capital yet in Saudi, but we do expect that this is going to change in the coming few years as we start to witness more growth stage. We do have growth stage companies that obviously require more injections of cash, but they're not as many as the seed stage ones.
Amal Dokhan: (24:48)
So if you look at the total amount of investments that have been done so far, it's according to the Venture Capital Association that tracks most of these activities is about $67 million for most of these companies, so it's mostly not very big tickets. And I think that's the right approach, actually to do it at this stage, and especially that most of these companies are really, really early stage.
Amal Dokhan: (25:15)
Now, could we reach that problem of the WeWork and what happened? I think we still need a couple of years to start saying that this could be a problem. At the moment, our focus is just to increase that number of startups. So hopefully, we can see more exits at this stage, although we do have a big number of companies at the early stage, but their survival rate, as we know globally, is not always high. So I still need to increase that number so we can have the ones that survived the series A and the series B and C stage, which we started to see a bit off, but it's not very common yet over here. So the majority is just early stage at the moment
Rachel Pether: (26:01)
Yeah, and I think when you mentioned the mega funds at $1 billion, if you're looking at $5 million ticket sizes, that's 200 startups that you can make investments in so it's important to have that strong pipeline as well.
Amal Dokhan: (26:14)
Yeah, at the moment. Actually, if you look at the sizes of or the investments, so 92%, so all the investments that are being done now in the Saudi market are actually early stage. So we're still really, we still need some time for these companies, two to three years to start seeing them in the growth stage. And then the ticket size is going to grow a little bit bigger. And even the venture capitals maybe start, so the majority of VCs nowadays are all seed stage. Very few do invest in the growth because there isn't enough of that pipeline. So that's where the work that we need to do, so maybe these VCs later on will structure other funds so they can invest in the growth stage that they can start targeting.
Rachel Pether: (27:03)
Yeah, that makes sense. And I think in some of these answers, you've touched on some of the questions that I want to get to, but we've had an audience question saying do you see the local capital sources, and maybe x-government, trying to replicate what's been accomplished in Silicon Valley over the last few decades, and more recently, China as providing risk capital themselves? So is that capital coming from local startups or local VCs and international? What's that kind of mix like there?
Amal Dokhan: (27:37)
All right, so there is one of the entities that the government have created to spin off the small and medium enterprises called the Saudi Venture Capital company. So SVC is basically an incentives fund. It's a co-matching vehicle. So what they do, they incentivize venture capitals to set up or to start their funds in Saudi, and they do help them in the co-match or even in closing the ticket that they're looking for. Now, why are they doing that? Yes, because we do need that to minimize the risk somehow over these funds, to incentivize them to be present, to do the work, to reach out to the entrepreneurs, and all of that.
Amal Dokhan: (28:18)
So this has played a huge role in the increasing number of the venture capital funds that have been created in the past two years, because SVC was created two years ago. So we've seen a number of those in those reports about how many of these funds have been created. And on the other hand, of course, we see the other funds, the funds so you have the Jada that funds down venture capital funds that comes from outside Saudi Arabia mostly, so like their investment in 500 and MSA and many other of those.
Amal Dokhan: (28:52)
So there is some of these funds that are supporting everyone trying to minimize the risk of it. But the majority of the investments that we're talking about are coming from venture capitals, just private VCs. And this is the right way to do it, honestly. And these VCs have got the support from the government, but at the end of the day, they're investing and that government money is like an LP money at the end of the day, so they become just a limited partner. So it does not really instruct the startups that they invest in, they don't really interfere in the process. They only advise and help if needed. So this is how they're trying to minimize the risk, which supported a lot of the venture capitals that have been created in the kingdom recently.
Rachel Pether: (29:42)
Yeah, that's a great point. And I think that co-investment model is becoming much more popular in the region as well. So we have a few more questions. I'm going to ask you a general question, a political question and an advice question. So I'll start with the general question first. We have another audience question from Ken, thank you, who's asked how can entrepreneurship in Saudi and the broader MENA region be increased by 10 times, or let's say even 100 times? And I know you've touched on some of these things already, but maybe summarize those points.
Amal Dokhan: (30:19)
I like that question, because that's what I sleep dreaming on. That's what I wake up trying to do. It's just figuring out every possible way of how do we increase that. There's still yet more to be done. Ecosystem building is not just about creations of funds and creation of accelerators. So there is more. In order to have these accelerators filled, we still need to work a lot on the early stage education. I'm a believer in the education system. I'm a believer that this is a process that can be touched upon earlier at the growing stage of every human being, to be exposed to the possibilities, to the problem solving mindset, to the entrepreneurial mindset.
Amal Dokhan: (31:02)
And that's going to create that generation that comes all about problem solving, all about creating these solutions to where it's companies that become successful, impactful changes the lives of the communities. So that's one way to look at it. Now, how do we have the hundreds and the thousands and all of that? It's, basically we need to triple and do 100 times of what we do and increase the agents that incentivize these university students, that shows a different way. We need to do a better job in the media and publicity of the little stories that happens.
Amal Dokhan: (31:38)
I think there is, yep, there's some, it started in Saudi, but there is more to be done. We get all impacted by what we see. If we see that the idols of the corporates and the government positions as we grow up, that's what we see and that's what we want to be. And then sometimes we grow up on the startups that we started to see now in Saudi and the companies and people with mission and nothing is more beautiful than someone who believes in a certain or she believes in a certain solution, and then they lobby for it. So I think there is a piece of education piece of like enhancing ecosystems, increasing numbers of VCs and mentors, and all of that and all come together, we're definitely going to see it. And by the way, month over month, we're increasing. If we want to turn the ecosystem into a startup, I think we're going to have a very good GMV in Saudi for the number of startups increasing over the month.
Rachel Pether: (32:38)
It sounds like really, all we need need to do is clone you, like 1,000 times, and then we'll be fine. One point on the education, you actually recommended a TED Talk to me, which was fabulous. It was Ken Robinson on Do Schools Kill Creativity? And he said all these kids have tremendous talents. I think he said, "All kids have tremendous talents, and we squander them ruthlessly." So knowing what you know now having been out in the market, how would you teach kids differently?
Amal Dokhan: (33:14)
So, I started as an educator, and I think I was a rebel in the way I was teaching the kids and all of that. I probably wanted to, like I reflected on how I actually got my education. I was one of those people who wanted to study and get straight As and no matter what, at any cost, I've got to do this right. And reflecting back, I don't have regrets. Obviously, I caught up late on what I wanted to do. But I do believe in the power of a young mind, and Sir Ken Robinson's statement is amazing in a way because he reflects on that research that says that the human mind, by the age of four starts to become more smart and sensitive towards social signals.
Amal Dokhan: (34:02)
So I start to feel who's upset, I start to be a pleaser, I start to be depending on the society and the community that I actually grew up with. Or I become a person that basically looks at what's right and I want to do it, or what I believe in doing and that becomes my thing.
Amal Dokhan: (34:19)
So how do we do it differently? I think we started, we have something called the Entrepreneurial University in Saudi where universities are competing to see who's going to bring the entrepreneurship education in a different way, who's going to incentivize students to go through the entrepreneurial journey. During the Global Entrepreneurship Week, it was nothing but talking to universities and students and hearing what they're saying, answering their questions, directing them to different places.
Amal Dokhan: (34:46)
So the different way and the different approaches like less structured approach and more of like the free thinking of understanding and analyzing the personalities of the young people and see where they can shine. It's all right if I am super great, at mathematics, because obviously one day I'm going to be creating wonderful deep learning and AI solutions with my talent.
Amal Dokhan: (35:14)
I think if we understand these transitions, and what are we building, what is the value of building these skills, of turning the theory into practice at an early stage, showing them what is that going to mean in the real life, and making them do it in an early stage, that's going to change so much. We're not going to struggle at universities to teach innovation and entrepreneurship at that stage. It's going to be just being bombarded with the amount of people that are change makers. And those models are going to change others. And here, we need to reflect on the educators themselves, so they can believe and enable the change, the whole education model will change.
Amal Dokhan: (35:54)
And through COVID, who would have anticipated that students will sit behind a screen and the teacher will be teaching over distance? And if that was said to them before that, no one would have believed that this is possible. But when people are faced with change, they find solutions and they cope.
Amal Dokhan: (36:11)
So we need to make them cope earlier with the possibilities that might come and face them in their life, but definitely less structure but more chaos is needed to allow that innovation and creativity to spur and to teach them fear. I'm a big believer in that. I'm a big believer that it's all right to fail and it's all right to encourage experimentation. And it's all right to actually accept it. And we don't say don't get upset, you can get upset a little bit but understand why it happened and let's get over it so it doesn't become a showstopper for us. So bit of skills, bit of thinking. Obviously, design thinking has to be part of this whole process so they can create these simple solutions. And I was part of many experiments in schools, by the way. So I've seen the results at different ages as well.
Rachel Pether: (37:02)
Now, that's fantastic advice. And that actually leads quite nicely into a comment that's come through about mentorship. So I'll quickly read that out and then a question off the bat. Oh, Stephen said, "I've been blessed to have a fantastic mentor at the University of Colorado in Boulder, has a long and positive relationship with students from Saudi Arabia. I hope we can have a bright future with Saudi Arabia. Thank you for a fantastic conversation." So thank you for that comment. And then a follow on question from that. And I'm starting to get political, but it's the only political question, what will the new administration of President Joe Biden be doing to improve relations with the noble people of Saudi Arabia?
Amal Dokhan: (37:42)
So you're getting political, but I'm not very political. See, that's the thing. I'm not into politics, honestly. But all I say that our relationship with U.S. is a very, very old relationship that I believe will continue in the best way possible that serves both, so both U.S. and Saudi Arabia. And I think we've got a lot of ties that puts us together in many situations, and maybe the part that I look at is the economic part, mainly because we see a lot of initiatives and a lot of companies that are working hand in hand with U.S. and Saudi Arabia, as well.
Amal Dokhan: (38:24)
So with my entrepreneurial mind, I can only hope for the best, and for a much more prosperous relationship to be flourished. And as you mentioned, there's a lot of Stephen here mentioned that, that there's a lot of ties with Saudi. A lot of Saudis lived in U.S., Her Royal Highness, Princess Reema, our ambassador who's actually there, and is always building and supporting and building very successful and healthy relationship between the two countries.
Amal Dokhan: (38:55)
And it comes in so many cultural programs, in so many economical ties. So I'm an optimist. And I do see a lot of good that should come in the coming period, and our relationship with the people will also prosper. I love that statement on Boulder, Colorado, because every time I talk with Brad, he talks about the Boulder experience that I always like to learn from. So it's great that this is happening. And maybe Stephen, we catch up later, and we see if we can connect you with more Saudis and more entrepreneurs as well.
Rachel Pether: (39:30)
I'm sure he'd love that. And thank you so much for that offer Amal and you've answered so many difficult questions today. So I'd like to end on a nice, easy one. What would be your advice for a fresh graduate going out into the real world?
Amal Dokhan: (39:46)
Don't deny yourself trying anything new and anything exciting. Life will go by, and one day you'll look back and you're going to appreciate all the goods and the bads and what you thought it was really hard experiences actually create us as human beings. We always look back and remember these things that shapes our mind and it shapes our heart. It shapes who we are. And the richer we are in terms of experiences, the more likely that we're going to become more entrepreneurial and more courageous in taking new steps in life.
Amal Dokhan: (40:21)
Just focus on empathy, it's a change maker. Understand where the other comes from, and empathize with yourself as well. And we'll want to stay away from any judgments or any type of thing because it actually shadows the way we think. And we're by nature humans. We get impacted by what people say, by what's around us and all of that, but then we need to have our own internal alert that tells us, this is how we should think about it, let's go back and reset and look into it. So lots of empathy, lots of experimentation, don't be afraid of failing, no one will remember that later on. When years pass us by, just get up right away, shake it off, learn from it, and just be better, and never stop learning. We don't stop learning by finishing college. Learning is something beautiful, that keeps us alive. It's going to make you young the whole time because you're always learning something new. So I think those are like a bunch of things that I believe I try to remind myself with it. And I think it helps anyone who's in a university to just look into life with less fear, more courage to try new things. And if it didn't work out, that's absolutely okay. You can always flourish somewhere else. But yeah, keep learning obviously.
Rachel Pether: (41:45)
They are fabulous pieces of life advice. There's no way I can add anything to that. So I just want to say Amal, thank you so much for your time today and sharing your insights and wisdom and empathy. It's been such a pleasure speaking to you.
Amal Dokhan: (42:01)
Thank you so much, Rachel. It's been a pleasure. And I'm really honored. And thank you so much for everyone who attended and asked those questions as well. And I think there's a lot of beautiful things coming in Saudi Arabia. So stay tuned, because more announcements are going to happen in the coming few months, especially when it comes to innovation and entrepreneurship and attracting a lot of startups, VCs as well to the region. So pleased to be here. I'm very humbled to actually have been here today at Salt. So thank you, Rachel. Appreciate it.
Rachel Pether: (42:33)
Thanks so much. Thanks so much, Amal. It's always great to end on a really positive note.