“20 years ago, the human genome was unveiled as a map… scientists now know some of the key pathways that influence aging. We are not destined or pre-programmed to die at a specific age.”
Jim Mellon is a British entrepreneur, investor and author known for his ability to recognize emerging global trends. He’s most recently established himself as an expert in anti-aging and longevity research.
A constantly curious mind is necessary in identifying the next major global trends and investment opportunities. Anti-aging and longevity advancements will soon have massive impacts on life expectancy. The mapping of the human genome twenty years ago opened the door for scientists to begin understanding the different pathways that influence aging. Already drugs like metformin show promise in helping to extend life. “Within thirty years, the average lifespan at birth will be somewhere between 120-130 years. It is a fact, that with or without new technology, by 2100 there will be at least 100 million people 100+ years old”
AgTech represents another major industry primed to transform society. The adoption of alternative proteins will continue to grow rapidly as we look to address climate change while feeding a growing population.
LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE
SPEAKER
Jim Mellon
Chairman
Juvenescence
MODERATOR
Anthony Scaramucci
Founder & Managing Partner
SkyBridge
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
John Darcie: (00:07)
Hello. Hello everyone. And welcome back to salt talks. My name is John Darcie. I'm the managing director of salt, which is a global thought leadership forum and networking platform at the intersection of finance technology and public policy. Saul talks are a digital interview series with leading investors, creators, and thinkers. And our goal on these salt talks the same as our goal at our salt conferences, which we're excited to resume in the post pandemic period. Uh, God willing September of 2021 in New York, uh, which we're very excited about anybody watching. We'd love to have you there, but our goal on these talks and at those conferences is to provide a window into the mind of subject matter experts, as well as provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future. And there's no bigger idea we think, uh, shaping the future, then the idea of longevity and just the amazing advances that we've seen in life sciences over the last several years.
John Darcie: (01:00)
So we're excited, very excited to welcome Jim melon to salt talks. Uh, Jim is a British entrepreneur and investor with a wide range of interests. There is private investment company, burn Bray group. He has substantial real estate holdings in Germany and the isle of man as well as holdings in private and public companies. Jim's investment philosophy is underpinned by his ability to recognize emerging trends that give rise to new industries or major shifts in markets. This includes the global financial crisis in 2008 and 2009 as foreseen in his first book that he co-authored, it's called wake up and subsequently in the new science and technologies detailed in cracking the code. The great book by Walter Isaacson and fast forward. Uh, more recently, Jim has established himself as a leader in the nascent field of aging research and longevity. His groundwork into the field is summarized in the book juvenile essence, which he also co-authored.
John Darcie: (01:55)
Jim sits on the board of trustees of the buck Institute for research and aging and the American Federation for aging research. He's also a trustee of bio gerontology research foundation and the lifeboat foundation as an honorary fellow at Orielle college at the university of Oxford and sits on the advisory board of the Milken institutes center for the future of aging. We're great friends with the team over there at Milken, but I understand that the AGA spent some time at Cambridge. I know you're an Oxford guy. Jim don't want to create any early tension here in the salt talk. If you guys start butting heads, I'll jump in and be the peacemaker. But, uh, hosting, today's talk returning to salt talks as AIJ Scaramucci, who is the founder and managing director of the salt fund, which is an early stage venture fund that we launched building on the salt ecosystem and making investments primarily in the life sciences biotechnology area. AIG can talk a little bit more about that. Uh, but with, without any further ado, I'm going to turn it over to AIG for the interview. Jim,
AJ Scaramucci: (02:53)
Jim, welcome. So, so lovely to see you, you know, I'd love to start this interview way, turning back the way back to the Oxford days, actually, where you were studying politics, philosophy economics. Take me into the mind of, of Jim at that time. What were you thinking? What were your aspirations? How were you imagining your career unfolding? Let's start there.
Jim Mellon: (03:15)
Uh, well, thanks. AJ thanks, John. It's really great to be on this, uh, program. Um, honestly, um, probably like you, I went to university very young. I was 17 and I graduated when I was 20. Uh, and the only thought I have was passing the exams, which were more difficult than I expected and, um, also getting a job and I had a wonderful time at Oxford. I had close links with Oxford as I'm sure. And I know you have with Cambridge, I'm deeply grateful for all the connections and all the opportunities that it afforded me. Um, but the most important thing really was to get a job. And so at the end of my time at Oxford, they had something that I'm sure you have the same quarter milk round when the employers come around and they interview people. And it's the usual one of investment banks and, uh, odd array of companies.
Jim Mellon: (04:14)
Uh, and I was offered three or four jobs. Uh, one was with a company called Clark shoes. I think they even sell their shoes in the U S um, and, but they'd been through several bankruptcies. I'm very glad I didn't go to that. Another one was with a well known investment banking company, and I'm glad I didn't go there either. Um, and the last one was with, uh, well, the one that I was considering, uh, very seriously was with a company that offered me a job in Hong Kong and it was in fund management and I didn't know what financial it was. I didn't know what a bond was, even though I had studied economics and I didn't know what a stock really was. And so I took that job because it was in Hong Kong and I wanted to leave the country, which I think is a great thing for anyone.
Jim Mellon: (04:54)
I think if you're living in the U S or the UK or anywhere, if you can go and travel the world, what a great opportunity. So I went to Hong Kong. I was, this is a long, long time ago, way before your time. I was paid 5,000 pounds a year. And then, uh, uh, the company was really growing quickly. It was called GT management. It's not a known as LGT or Lichtenstein global trust, the very big, uh, financial company. And, uh, they sent me to San Francisco where they were opening an office. And so I was able to, um, to be at the beginning of the big tech boom in the mid 1980s in the United States. And I can tell you this now, but I think I'm the only person ever to sat in a commercial aircraft going from Palm Springs to San Francisco. And in front of me with Steve jobs and bill gates together, talking in a friendly fashion on the flight hallway. Uh, and you know, we all think of them as being rivals and, you know, never speaking to each other, but they were there, they were in front of me. And if I'd had, uh, the guts that I have now, I would have gone and talked to them and my life might have been completely different.
AJ Scaramucci: (06:08)
Wow. That's, that's an amazing story. So, and, and Jim, as you've, as you've kind of entered into your investment career and culture, your craft, we're curious to know how have you developed that investment philosophy? What are, what are some of the heuristics you use in making decisions? And then also, what are some times in your career where you've, uh, kind of been challenged or you've, you've seen, you know, there, there was, there was an up or down that you had to had to manage or deal with.
Jim Mellon: (06:40)
Yeah. I, I, you know, you're the first person ever that I've spoken to, who's used the word heuristics, which is exactly the right word. So my, uh, condensed the motto, uh, and will be the subject of my next book is curiosity, adaptability and application curiosity is where you need, um, he eristics, you know, people like us read a lot regard that as being the job that we have to try and pick up, uh, the little sense that we need to understand where the next opportunity, uh, is rather than, you know, invest in the status quo, employee heuristics, and, and those heuristics are honed and developed over time and experience. I don't think you're born with them. I think it's just a question of, uh, really working at it. Uh, and so most of my morning is taken up with, uh, reading and reading widely on, on any subject at all.
Jim Mellon: (07:40)
Um, and then, you know, adaptability is particularly important now where the world is changing so quickly in a technological sense, young people are going to have to do multiple careers. We all know that, uh, so they have to be adaptable, you know, in my time you probably went into a job and that was it. And, uh, I know lots of people who've done it of my generation. Who've, who've done that. And some successfully, um, some unhappily, um, and the last thing is application. And we all know that unless your, one of the two geniuses sitting in front of me on the Palm Springs flight, uh, or Zuckerberg, or one of these very, very few people, Jack Mar, uh, that you have to work hard at it. You know, you don't, success is something that doesn't fall in your lap. And so, uh, curiosity, adaptability application that had been my, uh, watch words all well read throughout, um, my career.
Jim Mellon: (08:37)
And, uh, and I've kind of navigated. And you asked me about, you know, difficult times, wow, there've been plenty of difficult times. I mean, I'll give you an example. We were in, in the, on assumption of curiosity, I was reading and then the internet wasn't around in 1994, I reading about Russia, privatizing its, um, industries and, uh, doing it by way of distribution of anxious to every adult in the, in the Federation. Uh, and those matches with a sale and foreigners could goodbye those ventures. And so myself and my colleague, Jane Sutcliffe got on a plane. It was a rather complicated, uh, way of getting there, but we eventually ended up in Moscow. We ended up with $2 million in cash, body guards, all that sort of stuff. And we bought a $2 million worth of ventures at the vegetable market in Moscow, uh, to convert into, uh, chairs, the auction that was taking place of every single business, ranging from a hairdresser to the oil and gas companies in Russia.
Jim Mellon: (09:39)
And, um, it was a very successful investment. And within a year or two, we had billions of dollars invested in the former Soviet union. Now that was great. And, uh, in 1987, we made a very large amount of money, but in 1998, uh, Russia defaulted on its debts. Its currency was heavily devalued. And I remember getting a call from a former colleague of mine at Oriel college, Oxford, who was then the treasurer of Morgan Stanley asking for a margin call of $40 million. Now $40 million in 1998 was a lot of money. It wasn't my personal much call. It was the company's margin. We only just scraped that we got the $40 million, but wow. You know, to me it represented almost a 1998, was it wasn't a lifetime, but it was a big chunk of work. And it was almost about to go down the two. So you have to be aware of what might blindside you in either direction. Uh, you know, when we all know that when you're riding high is the time when it's most likely you're going to have a fault. So I'm very cautious these days about everything that I do. Yeah. Fascinating.
AJ Scaramucci: (10:50)
You know, there's, uh, we, when we were doing some, some research on your investment history, there's such a broad range from real estate and, you know, oh, markets bodies uranium for a time. And we actually had to some, some questions from our community around uranium. Uh, there's, there's a sort of an interesting dynamics at play is an emerging by-product of, of COVID, uh, there's been sort of supply shocks, uh, and you know, a decade ago, uh, or more when you, when you were, you were involved, uh, there were some similar kind of, there's a similar environment. I'm curious, is this something you're, you're kind of keeping track on having an opinion on?
Jim Mellon: (11:36)
Yeah, that's a great question. And basically, uh, when I got involved in uranium, I, it was a serendipitous moment because I have a friend who's a business partner and he happened to have a potential uranium deposit in Namibia. We were in my pub in London, uh, where a lot of good ideas I happen. And, uh, and you're, you're both very welcomed to come into a pub with me in London if you want. And, um, we put in $50,000 into this prospect and within two years it was sold for two and a half billion dollars in cash. Uh, now that was because uranium obviously representing nuclear power was the interregnum between fossil fuels and renewable energy. And the reason that that mine has never gone into production is because the price of uranium, which had gone from $20 to $140, a pound collapsed post Fukushima. And, uh, the Germans also shut down their uranium.
Jim Mellon: (12:42)
But today, and it's interesting, you should mention that I don't have a uranium, uh, prospect, but I've invested in Chemico as an example. Um, because I do think that, uh, nuclear is going to have it stay again, that we just can't move straight from fossil fuels to renewables, uh, with certainty and without huge costs, without putting nuclear, which is a clean energy somewhere in between. And the Chinese are building lots of, uh, uh, nuclear power stations. I think that even in the UK, we're building two or three, I guess, in the U S you'll be building some as well. So it's a it's, I think it's a good one to invest in at the moment.
AJ Scaramucci: (13:23)
Yeah. And so Jimmy in parlaying a bit, I mean, you're, but what's so fascinating about you and your background is you, you really put your, put your money where your mouth is, and you have a really strong conviction in certain vectors, certain mega trends. And the two more recently is the one of, of aging as the fundamental indication, longevity, uh, dressing the nine hallmarks, et cetera, uh, switching the paradigm to preventative as opposed to reactive forms as medicine and therapeutics, and then on the food and ag front, right pivoting into a world where cellular agriculture, synthetic biology and fermentation are the status quo and traditional agriculture goes to the wayside. And I'd love to understand, you know, as you were developing that, that mental model, both in writing, and then also manifesting in a company today, do you have an essence in it? And, and, and another one in the food and ag space acronym. Nomix how did you walk us through that, that process as well as, uh, give us a sense for why, like, what, why, why were those, why are those two things as so compelling and interesting to you?
Jim Mellon: (14:35)
Okay, so I've got two wonderful biotech partners. We've created a number of biotech companies, and we've invested in biotech for the last 15 years. One is dat Dubin who was formerly the head of drug research at, um, Pfizer. And the other is Greg is a well-known funder of, uh, biotech companies. And, uh, Greg and I were talking, he more about the, you know, how to live longer with the technologies that were then available, which is basically exercise, you know, reducing harmful inputs into your body. Uh de-stressing et cetera. And me more along the lines that, well, the science behind aging is catching up with the aspiration of us all to live at least healthier and the, towards the end of our lives, um, if not longer. And so having created a number of biotech companies, a couple of which are listed in the United States, we decided to create juvenile essence.
Jim Mellon: (15:35)
And do you have an essence is an interesting company because we don't know exactly what's going to modify aging, but we know that something's going to modify aging. So we created the back 20 bats. If you want to put it that way across, uh, multiple projects, uh, to where we only need one or two to work. And the first goal is to compress the period of what's called morbidity at the end of life. So that's having a dread disease post the age of about 70, which almost everyone, thousands, you know, so that could be osteoarthritis, or it could be cancer or diabetes or whatever it is, and trying to reduce the impact of that, uh, given that people are living longer, even, you know, in the pandemic period, their life expectancy generally is going up around the world. Uh, and then ultimately trying to modify aging so we can slow or reverse it, or even, I mean, this is the goal of some people like Eric Burdon, for instance, or Aubrey degrade of halting it.
Jim Mellon: (16:40)
And, uh, so the way that I, I create these, uh, opportunities is to write a book. And I can tell you that if you write a book, you get access to people who otherwise wouldn't talk to you. So I drove around the U S three and a half years ago. And, um, uh, which is by the way, was a wonderful experience. I mean, it's just such an incredible country and, uh, interviewed all the key opinion leaders that I could find. And, um, uh, they speak to you because they've gotta be in a book and then juvenessence became the template for our, for our company, which does no raise the back $250 million of equity capital, and is, um, in the process will, will be public, uh, sometime this year. And, um, well we have some exciting stuff. We have a consumer facing division that now has a product on the market, which comes.
Jim Mellon: (17:33)
And I know you're very close to, uh, Dr. Eric Burdon. Um, it comes out of his lab and the buck Institute, uh, it's called metabolic switch. It's on sale in the United States. It's really a remarkable product. And then we have an organ regeneration program, our subsidiary called late Genesis, which is in phase two trials in sick patients to regrow livers in situ. Uh, so, you know, we're getting there, but we're feeding our way towards it. The longevity industry is at the dial-up phase of the internet equivalent. We're in the very early stage. And as far as agriculture is concerned, uh, the, I got really interested in cellular agriculture, uh, because that comes out of biotech processes, using bioreactors media growth factors, et cetera, to create replicas of meat and fish and, and materials. And so that's why we got involved in that. And now we're the biggest investors in the world in this area.
Jim Mellon: (18:35)
Now that sounds like a major boast, but I can tell you it's a bit like being an Admiral and the Swiss Navy, it's still a very small sector. So, uh, so AIJ, um, you know, I think the two are very linked. They're linked to sustainability, they're linked to the need to reduce, uh, emissions and the need to improve our human health and in so many ways and so long life. So at the end of maybe not the end of my career, but the tail end of a long career, I am making, I hope that impact is positive for everyone. Yeah.
AJ Scaramucci: (19:09)
Yeah. And, and three and a half years ago, when you came to the us in that exploratory mindset, speaking with people like Aubrey or Eric at, at, at the buck Institute of aging, what were some big standout takeaways for you when you, when you look back at that experience? What, what surprised you, uh, what, what was unknown to you? How did, how did, how did that experience refine your, your heuristic perhaps, and sort of manifest what became juvenile assets?
Jim Mellon: (19:41)
Yeah, so, uh, I think it was basically a confluence of, um, I mean, it was a happy coincidence that, you know, Aubrey nearby lies another great example, David Sinclair, uh, Eric, um, and we'll be working on this for literally decades. And, you know, because the Alexia review has been chased by mankind for millennia without success. In some ways it was always regarded as the realm of crackpots and, uh, you know, almost religious cult type people. And so, but 20 years ago, the human on the human genome was, uh, unveiled. It was unveiled as a map, which couldn't be well-read and as time has gone on, and computer power has got greater and there's been great scientific collaboration across the internet. The unveiling of that, uh, map has become a reading of that. And we now know, or at least the scientists know about the, some of the key pathways, at least that influence aging.
Jim Mellon: (20:54)
We also know that we are not destined or pre-programmed for data specific age, and they know that in at least a mammalian and, uh, species, that it is possible to manipulate key pathways to, uh, keep, uh, mammals and ourselves living longer. And what really struck me was the work that was done in some, you know, compounds that are widely available. Um, but for different purposes, like a very good example is Metformin, which I'm sure you're very familiar with, uh, which is effectively a wonder drug and which nearby has been trying to get, uh, funding for his trial for, for a long time. Uh, but you know, as far as I can see almost every single person in the longevity industry is taking Metformin on a daily basis, um, and near thinks that will add six to eight years, uh, to lifespan. And I think Nick is a wonderful, wonderful person.
Jim Mellon: (21:53)
So what really impressed me was that the first of all, the collaboration of people in the longevity industry, positive collaboration, which is so great, then, you know, there's not a competitive landscape, is if anything works in this field, then it's going to be the biggest industry on the planet. Because there isn't very, there aren't many people who don't want to live longer. Even my dad who's 92 will be signed up for all the, uh, all the drugs that they want. Uh, and, um, so that, that was one thing. The second was the, the fervor and the, the, the, the years and years and years of grinding work that people, Aubrey, Eric have been doing to advance the cause. And I just felt that, you know, it was an inclusive family and I wanted to be part of it. And I feel that I am now a part of it.
Jim Mellon: (22:40)
And I'm very, very grateful, uh, to, to have been included in that, even though I'm not a scientist, but I understand enough to know that we can and will make an impact. And I also make the assertion today, but within 30 years, average life span will be at birth will be somewhere between 120 and 130 years, I mean, absolutely possible. And it is a fact with all, with that new technology, with new technology, be an even bigger figure, but by 2,100, uh, there will be at least a hundred million people of a hundred years old plus on the planet. And that's up from half a million in 1990s. So, you know, the progress is incredible. Yeah.
AJ Scaramucci: (23:25)
And being on the front lines and making those bats that you made at at Juven essence, what do you, I know these things are malleable in the last second will change, et cetera, but which one of these is it, is it the nav boosting? Is it similar Lytics? Is it something in the computational drug discovery or wind pathway on the front lines today? If you, I know you've, you've created a portfolio approach, but when you're speaking with the research scientists, uh, downstream, what, what today feels like the most promising, uh, mechanism that can unlock, uh, the most net years of both health span and lifespan?
Jim Mellon: (24:04)
Yeah, I think it's, uh, there's no Polly farmer. I mean, it is a farmer approach. There's no single pill that we're gonna be able to take that will keep us alive for over 30 years, at least not now. Um, and, uh, what I'm very excited about is a regenerative medicine, uh, you know, effectively that the image of the class that you've seen this before, a kind of state car that's restored, uh, to, uh, as is the, as was state, uh, we are very keen on trying to find ways in which, uh, organs that are failing can be regenerated, uh, in vivo. And that's a major push for us. And I think that we were getting close to that actually working. And the fact that the FDA has allowed like Genesis to go into sick patients, uh, using, uh, lymphnodes as a topic bioreactors w seated with, um, uh, with hepatic cells to, uh, basically regrow liver tissue, uh, to take over the burden of a fading that, um, is, is a very big positive.
Jim Mellon: (25:09)
Um, but that platform can be used to regrow the famous where your T cells are produced, regrow the pancreas, uh, ultimately regrow the kidney or, uh, as well. And the big issue with, um, transplants is a first of all, there aren't enough, uh, organs out there to be transplanted, uh, particularly in livers. Secondly, it's a very expensive and very long, uh, operation in the U S to have a liver transplant is $800,000, and it's about a 15 hour operation. And the third is that you, uh, need immunosuppressants, uh, for the rest of your life. And just imagine that you'd had a transplant and you're on heavy immunosuppression and the COVID comes along. I mean, you're not even allowed to see anyone, uh, you know, the whole period of COVID because the slightest infection will take you away. So what we're trying to do is find a way of amalgamating science.
Jim Mellon: (26:05)
And so our company Ajax, um, has got a stem cell line called HLA G, which is a maternal stem stem cell line. That means that the mother doesn't reject the fetus. And we're trying to use that along with like Genesis technique, which is by the way only about $130,000 compared to the $800,000 for a transplant. Plus it's an inpatient, uh, sorry, that patient procedure, as opposed to an inpatient procedure and use that to avoid the need for immunosuppression. So the opportunity in regenerative medicine, I think is number one in my list of, of what we can do, um, in terms of, uh, you know, what drug C might want to take. I think that analogs or tweaks of Metformin or rapamycin will, are absolutely something that we're seriously interested in. Um, send analytics have so far been disappointing as you well know, and unity failed in its first trial. It's now engaged in a second phase three for age-related macular degeneration. I hope. And I pray that it works because on paper said, analytics should be working, but so far they're not, but as I said earlier, we don't know exactly what's going to work, but we know something's going to work. Definitely.
AJ Scaramucci: (27:19)
Yeah. That's super comprehensive. Yeah. I mean, I think there, there is something for sure in this regenerative medicine realm, the cellular therapeutics realm, and whether it's placental derived tissue, as an example, in the case of cellularity or trying to populate kidney or lung scaffolds with mesenchymal stem cells, you know, the work of Martine wrath, Blatt, et cetera, there's there, there is a lot of converging, um, areas that are really showing, showing early signs of promise. Uh, it's extremely exciting. So today, so today Jim, for yourself, cause people are going to want to know you're taking Metformin. Are you taking some kind of NAD booster or what, what is the constellation of things that you do for yourself, uh, has given you, you have become a champion of, of longevity research?
Jim Mellon: (28:09)
Well, they always say a J the best tailors, the ones that are less stressed, um, I'm, uh, taking, uh, I do I've, I've actually started on Metformin, uh, because at the urging of my colleagues, um, and I'm not taking NAD boosters, I am, uh, I'm now drinking the ketone Ester from juvenessence metabolic switch, which actually tastes absolutely horrible. But if you remember your mum giving you, um, you know, medicines and saying that if it tastes bad, it's good for you. It's the same, it's the same concept, I guess. Um, and I do feel better actually. I've been on it for about two weeks and I feel better for that. Um, and, uh, so, uh, I'm not doing a lot other than I look exercise. I think given that we are not at the point yet where the stuff is in wide dispersal, uh, I think exercise is the most important thing, and it can be anything even walking, but doing, you know, a lot of steps every day. So I do a minimum of 15,000 steps a day, but don't look at me. I think my colleague Greg, uh, takes it to extremes and I'm somewhere in the middle of the night. I'm probably the slouch. Um, you prefers to watch some Netflix and follow all the advice that I could
AJ Scaramucci: (29:26)
Fair enough. Fair enough. And yeah, the parlay there, I mean, there's, there's, you know, an enormous amount of capital, particularly in the age of COVID that has been coming down into pharma or MRN research or, or what have you. And, you know, longevity really does seem to be like this secret hiding in plain sight. Right. I mean, it, it really is. Uh, as you said, you know, it's kind of like the dial up days and perhaps we will look back a decade or two and, and look back maybe on even this conversation and say, wow, this, this truly was the beginning. The question I have is, is how do we get more investors interested in longevity, pension funds, sovereign wealth funds, institutions, what watershed moment do you feel needs to happen in order for that wave to really, really ignite from a capital perspective?
Jim Mellon: (30:20)
Yeah, that's a brilliant question. I mean, I think that, uh, the pandemic has done two things. One, it has shown up the need to build up the immuno resilience and the elderly cohort cohorts, because as in the United States, as in the UK as, and everywhere else, the average age of people dying of COVID is more or less at the average age of life expectancy. I mean, in the UK, it's actually one year ahead of average life expectancy. So older people who have reduced immune systems, uh, building up those immune systems, I think is going to be really important and any breakthrough there. And again, that's a major focus of, as a juvenile essence is going to show the capability of extending, um, life, uh, and, uh, also start garnering the money that is necessary to really propel this thing forward. I completely agree with you ha this is a monumental industry in the making, but as yet, because there isn't anything that it's, you know, you can put your hand on and say, this is really working.
Jim Mellon: (31:37)
Um, uh, it's not got the hype around, for instance, cannabis or cryptocurrencies running, even though it deserves to have a much, much bigger priority than those things. Um, but we're, we're not, not far off the point. Um, you know, there are, there are good companies in this field. Uh, some of which you're very familiar with, you know, Peter Diamandis, his companies as an example, um, the data Sinclair's life bio-sciences, uh, and one or two of us will have something in the next one or two years that will be mind shattering and will propel huge amounts, uh, into this field. We're not quite at the point, but on the other hand, but when not finding a great deal of resistance to people putting money into the concept. Um, and, uh, although my money raising is always difficult as, you know, we are, we're doing pretty well on that school. And, um, I'm, I'm, I'm confident we'll get enough money to, to progress our programs.
AJ Scaramucci: (32:39)
Yeah. Yeah. And do you feel that, uh, sort of recognizing aging as a disease or an indication, uh, is, is sort of a linchpin in this, or a lot of aging companies seem to be pursuing aging or, you know, one of the nine hallmarks as an example, but they have to masquerade as traditional pharmaceutical companies and pursuant of, you know, X, Y, and Z oncology indication. And you, do you, do you feel, I mean, that is in this iced a bit, do you feel like that is, that is of critical importance?
Jim Mellon: (33:11)
Yeah. My colleague, the chaperone Coff runs in silico medicine, which was our first investment in juvenessence, which is doing very well, um, is a big illness, you know, getting aging recognized, uh, by the who as a, a disease in itself. Uh, I think he's been making along with his, uh, partners in this, uh, in this mission, some success, and it is important because let's face it apart from viral diseases or bacterial infections or some rare childhood diseases. Uh, aging is the number one cause of disease. Uh, the proliferation of disease as you get older is quite incredible. And, um, so we need to look at aging as the fundamental cascade from which all the diseases of aging come. And I, I'm totally with you on, in that. I think that will be a big moment. Uh, and, uh, we're working on that with, uh, with, uh, partners in the other companies and other organizations, uh, in the aging space to try and make that happen.
Jim Mellon: (34:18)
But I have to take my hat off to Alex because I think he's the, he's the main driver of this, but it's a very, very good and well noted point that, you know, as soon as aging is recognized as a disease, and maybe we move forward. Now, I wouldn't say companies are necessarily imposters. What they are doing is they're navigating the FDA and the rules to find a commercial application because no company can hang around for 30 or 40 years. And seeing if, you know, Aja lives to 150 or a hundred, um, and well, it's a lot longer than 30 or 50 years. I know, but in my case, let's say, and, um, they, uh, so they need to find some way of getting a drug or a therapy that's commercialized. And then in the near future, we're no different to that. You know, we're looking for near term commercial opportunities, which then measured with biomarkers, and you talk about the whole monks of agent, but measured with accurate biomarkers are getting better and better, uh, allow scientists to see if there is actually an aging or anti-aging effect from the therapies that people are taking.
Jim Mellon: (35:21)
Um, but, uh, as you know, Metformin is a prescription drug in the United States, but it's not here in Spain and, uh, I can go buy it in the pharmacy. And so it makes it slightly different for you guys in the U S
AJ Scaramucci: (35:33)
Yeah. So Jim, uh, you know, I, it kind of pivoting into new book moose law, which came out last year. Uh, you know, you seems like a similar story. You interviewed an enormous number of experts in the space of cellular agriculture and food and ag tech more broadly. Uh, and similarly you're, you're making waves here, uh, as an investor and as an entrepreneur, love to learn you again on the front lines of this industry in particular, what are you seeing? What is, what is, what is promising, what is investible today that can see, uh, you know, some, some rate of return. I mean, we've seen impossible and beyond, and even just, and sort of the plant, uh, sort of protein alternatives start to really garner one market share, but to enterprise value cellular agriculture seems to be a bit more nascent, uh, things like fermentation and synthetic biology may be here even more ahead. I'm curious how, as you map that landscape, what seems that it is within our grasp in the next five to 10 years?
Jim Mellon: (36:40)
Yeah. Well, uh, you described it extremely well. I would say that, you know, rather like longevity has come into its own because of a single event, which was the unveiling of the human genome. The rise of alternative proteins has come into its own, uh, for three or four reasons. One is the desire to change the outcome and climate. It is a fact, and, you know, you can dispute the percentages, but about a fifth of noxious gases come from intensive farming, and it's more than any other form of human activity, including transport. So reducing intensive farming is a really good thing for the environment. Secondly, cutting down the rainforest, which everyone is justifiably upset about is being done to grow soy beans, which then get fed to animals, which are very inefficient, uh, converters of plant protein into meat. Uh, in the case of Kansas, about 25 to one in chickens, it's somewhere between six to nine to one, uh, that's highly wasteful.
Jim Mellon: (37:53)
And also it adds to further environmental damage. Thirdly, you've got the Indians and the Chinese demanding more and more animal protein, and quite rightly, why shouldn't they eat, uh, as they get rid of the same stuff as Americans or Europeans, uh, do, but in, so doing what's happening is that you're putting unbearable strains on our environmental system and on potential human health. So 80 that's eight, 0% of antibiotics go into intensively farmed animals. Now, what that does is to create antibiotic resistance in human beings, because we're, I don't because I don't eat meat, but people are eating these, uh, meats and they're becoming more and more antibiotic resistant. Um, one day, uh, it could be, it'd be, and I know bill gates has been banging on about this, but it could be that we just antibiotics and work anymore. And if we got a bacterial pandemic, rather than the viral pandemic we have now, where the whole world is being shot down, 3 million people have died a week.
Jim Mellon: (38:59)
It could be looking at a much, much worse situation. We could be looking at a blank deck and, you know, people's holder, that's all possible in the mobile world. The black death was in the middle ages. Well, how was our responsible for vaccinations? So this pandemic, it wasn't much better than it was in 1918 or 1920. So we need to reduce the consumption of antibiotics. And 80% of them go into intensively found animals. Now you've also got the overfishing of the seas I've done, if anybody, to watch cease bursty, but it's a harrowing tale. Um, uh, and, uh, you know, this is going to be a massive disruption and it's happening very quickly. You asked companies are investible. We think about 30 in the world of which we've invested in 14. Uh, and yeah, and none of those companies are public, but I would imagine that one or two of them will go public in the states.
Jim Mellon: (39:53)
You mentioned each just possibly a spec, uh, Memphis meets in the states blue, which is the leading, uh, fish sell a company will go public. And of course you rightly point out in plant based meats you've got beyond and probably impossible game public shortly live kindly go in public and openly Cletus company. Um, making oat milk will go public quite soon. 10 years ago, half a percent of the U S market was alternative loans today. It's not good between 20 and 25%. The two biggest us little producers of Bombas borderland Dean foods. That's before you put your taught rightly about precision fermentation before the precision fermentation companies come along like perfect day or legendary out of butter Lynn, and they produced absolute replicas of whey Kasey making up milk, cheese, yogurt, et cetera, without any dairy cows being involved. So I make these predictions, I'm sorry I'm buying on here, but I'm very passionate about it.
Jim Mellon: (40:59)
10 years time, the dairy industry, as it currently exists, where you think of cows and being Milt that others getting to stand it, that backs breaking off to two or three years. And whereas they would normally live 20 to 25 years. Miserable lives back industry is gone, gone almost all around the world and we'll be drinking the perfect days or the Oatley or whatever. In terms of meat, 50 send to the meat market will be either plant based and everyone knows the brands, meatless farms call and impossible, uh, and, uh, or cell ag. And the reason I fundamentally prefer sell ag is because there's IP around it, but it's a, it's a, it's a moat that creates in my opinion, more value. And so companies will be able to produce these foods in labs and basically on an industrial scale, as the price comes down, uh, will become more valuable than the plant based foods.
Jim Mellon: (42:02)
And they're probably better for human health, but we know contaminants, no bacteria. So the food, the shelf life will be longer. Um, in fish there'll be no mercury microplastics, which are a disaster for fish at the moment. Uh, no antibiotics, no hormones, um, et cetera. And the total addressable market for all these things for dairy for meat or fish is about $5 trillion, which is twice the size of the whole UK economy. And about a quarter of the U S economy. This is not a trivial market. You know, if Tesla is worth $800 billion on the back of electric vehicles, and these companies are worth peanuts by comparison, they are addressing a fundamentally bigger need. We don't all need to get into a car every day, but we all need to eat. So this is absolutely transformational. And, uh, this is a long side, uh, longevity in juvenile since my other main passion. And I, I don't need to do anything else in my life except focus on these two because you know, they're both transformational.
AJ Scaramucci: (43:12)
Wow. Yeah. I mean, we personally, we feel the exact same way. I mean, we have stood up a vehicle at salt specifically to invest in program biology at the intersection of longevity and food and ag. And we are investors in companies like Xi Rue, which has mentioned in your book. I went to school school with Ryan at perfect day. We've been friends with fantastic friends for the last eight years, been involved in that company since the beginning. Um, and you know, it, it really, it really is, uh, it is happening, right. I mean, I think the, the gaining, the gaining function in, in cellular ag really is the cost related to the recombinant proteins being fed during the culture expansion process. I'm curious if you've seen, have you seen, uh, again on the front lines, some novel approaches to this, so that'll really kind of move the needle. I mean, moose law, I think is a great, a great analog or our heuristic to think about this. Um, but do you feel it'll look, it'll sort of just just happen or w what, what fundamental, uh, breakthrough do you feel needs to happen to unlock this for, for humanity at large at scale?
Jim Mellon: (44:20)
Yeah. Um, so there are three, the reason I think that I call it griddle parity, but the cell ag products have the potential over time to be lower in price than conventionally fund meats in particular will fish is because the input ratios at scale hence moves law are lower. We think about too to one compared to, as I mentioned that 25 to one, four a cow. Um, but you're actually right. The growth factors have to come down in price. Now the proteins recombinant proteins are, are currently extremely expensive because they are derived from biotech processes, but we know that in biotech at scale. So for instance, insulin would be a good example. Uh, the price comes down dramatically and in the case of insulin, it's about $4 a gram. And, uh, we are pretty confident that those same transcriptions will happen in cell ag. Similarly, the bioreactors that are used at the moment are relatively these small and they need to be scaled up.
Jim Mellon: (45:32)
And so companies like Sartorius in Germany are working on scaling them up to enormous sizes that you can produce a hundred thousand people's protein from one single factory. Uh, and I believe that will happen in the next two or three years. Uh, and then, uh, lastly, you've got the media or the, um, nutrients, and we know that they're coming down in price quite dramatically as well. So we're to, it's an iterative process. I don't think there's gonna be one single massive breakthrough, but it's going to be actually, I don't know, but I don't think it's going to be totally transformative, but I, I can tell you that if you graph the price of the initial burger unveiled by my passed in 2013 in London, who's now the chief scientific officer of Mosa meat costs about 300 pounds as in U S dollars. And now it's down to about $10.
Jim Mellon: (46:28)
It's following the trajectory of Moore's law, Gordon Moore, his original law of these, of these semiconductors. So it's only a matter of years before you get down to Gribble parents, the, and below, I'm absolutely confident that we're going to get that. I think the bigger roadblock it's going to be number one, the agro Luddites, particularly in the United States to, um, uh, uh, you know, representing capital pharmas and all very empty this stuff. And I can understand why they are, but in a way they should be embracing it because they might actually make some money out of it. Uh, and number two, the regulatory process, um, uh, and then third is of course, consumer acceptance, will people accept eating food that's made in a, uh, industrial way. And I think that will happen. Um, and I, to give you an illustration of that, I was reading about Libby pasta and pasteurized milk, and it it's amazing, amazing to me that pasteurization was all around for a long time before it was used mandatorily in United States and people were dying because they were drinking unpasteurized milk, which caused huge amounts of, uh, uh, gastro problems, uh, in, in the U S uh, and, uh, only when the science was proven to the satisfaction of the regulators, was it made mandatory, but consumers embraced it straight away, even though it might heating up the milk to 130 degrees Celsius, and then couldn't get it straight away.
Jim Mellon: (47:55)
Um, so it was a novel foods are easily embraced that they represent convenience, taste, texture and price, and those are the four key factors that will drive this industry.
AJ Scaramucci: (48:07)
Sure, sure. I think that's a really interesting, uh, analog, and it leads me to my next question, which is the consequences of, of this stuff, both in longevity and in food and ag. I mean, do people really want to live forever if they had the option? Do you, uh, or in the food and ag ecosystem, will, will people, I mean, uh, my gut is yes, they will accept cellular ag as a mainstay, but there's definitely going to be friction there. I'd love, love to hear a little bit from you on, on the kind of downstream second, third order consequences of, of these technological inevitabilities if you,
Jim Mellon: (48:47)
Yeah. Well, I mean, the consequences of, uh, people living healthier for longer are, uh, you know, incredible, um, in some ways, you know, people do live routinely to a hundred, 110. Um, it's like adding another 12 hours to your day, instead of making out with 24 hours away, couple of 36 sites, what are you going to do with that time? And that will be a big question for a lot of people. Uh, it obviously upends all sorts of financial products, you know, pensions insurance, uh, government structures and all that sort of stuff. And there's not enough attention paid to that. So we do a longevity forum every year in London, uh, with my collaborators, including professor Andrew Scott, who wrote the a hundred year life to try and educate people about, you know, what are, what are the consequences of this? And by the way, it's an unstoppable trainers it's going to happen.
Jim Mellon: (49:40)
Um, and, um, the, uh, so, and in terms of agriculture, well, luckily, uh, there are two parts of agriculture. One is growing crops for human consumption, which is a very profitable business, generally speaking. Um, and, uh, then there's also growing crops to put in animals and grain the animals themselves, both of those, hopefully it will reduce an intensity. They have to reduce the intensity. Uh, but if farmers divert their attention to growing CrossFit humans, they can make much better margins than they currently do. And a lot of them are just living precariously, trying to grow animals and, and cross to put into animals. Uh, and, uh, there is opportunities for farmers to other stuff where they land, like for instance, building houses since only 1% of the workforce in developed countries works in agriculture. It's not going to be highly disruptive. There's not going to be like the horse and cart being displaced by the motorcar. This is a, it's going to be all the minds, being miners, all losing their jobs. This is a much lesser change. And the major part of agriculture is actually processing marketing, consumption, retaining a food that will stay the same.
AJ Scaramucci: (51:02)
Definitely. And Jim and Jim, you know, uh, where can, where can people find you interact with you? Are you active on, on, on social media? How do people keep up with, with your work? I know you're, you've got these recent books coming out, perhaps another one down, down the pike, but give us a sense there.
Jim Mellon: (51:23)
Um, I'm on LinkedIn and anyone can contact me on LinkedIn. I'm not on any of the other things, because I think LinkedIn is the only one that's polite and, you know, has a special purpose. Um, so I'm on that, a contact me on that, and I'd be very happy to connect anyone to my colleagues if they want to talk directly to any of them. Um, and, uh, as far as the books are concerned, the profits go to whatever. And the, and this case, the moose law, uh, all the profits go to the good food Institute, which is the leading advocacy group for trying to reduce intensive farming. I mean, my own motivation by the way, ha or intensive farming is not to make money, but to reduce animal cruelty. And, um, you know, as a, I can see John's wearing his dog, uh, don't think, and I'm sure you're a big animal lover as well.
Jim Mellon: (52:22)
H I'm sure you are. Uh, and, uh, we can't have any more of this. I mean, you know, chickens in 1950, where one third, the size of chickens today, the chickens today live an average of 23 days. Uh, the male checks are shoved into basically the butchered, uh, when they arrive in the world. Um, and cause, you know, live 28 months before they're slaughtered and most of them never see the daylight until the day they are slotted. Uh, we know about fish. I mean, th this is a, it's a cruel and horrible industry. And my motivation is to sorry, is to reduce this as much as possible,
AJ Scaramucci: (53:05)
Definitely with that geo, I mean, it has been such a pleasure to speak with you. We'd love to see you again on, on salt talks in the future. And one of our events, uh, in New York or Abu Dhabi, Singapore, is as the world opens up. Uh, but with that, I mean, John, uh, I mean,
John Darcie: (53:22)
I, I think Jim, we would obviously love to you in New York, in September, but a beef, a warrior station right now is definitely not a bad move. So I don't blame you if you decide to, just to kick your feet up on the beach and continue the great work you're doing, but we would love to see
Jim Mellon: (53:36)
You. I, I would love to come with we're longing to travel actually. And, uh, it would be super, uh, to be included in one of your events. I really appreciate it. And, uh, it's been an absolute pleasure, ha and John, thank you for having me
John Darcie: (53:51)
And thank you for joining us and thank you everybody for tuning into today's salt. Talk with Jim Mellon of Juven essence. Just a reminder, if you miss any part of this talk or any of our previous salt talks, you can access them on our website. It's salt.org backslash talks and on our YouTube channel, which is called salt tube. Uh, we're, we're more active on social media than Jim we're on Twitter at salt conference. That's not to say we don't get some, some hate messages every once in a while. They'll probably be talking about how I'm, uh, you know, not dressed properly or, or wasted too much time in the introduction before we got to the good stuff with AIG and Jim get all kinds of, you know, hateful messages on social media, but we try to keep our self-esteem in order and block it out. Um, but uh, also spread the word about the assault talks. We think these issues related to longevity, as we talked about, you know, the animal cruelty issue is obviously very important and also just helping people live healthier, longer lives, we think is a very noble mission and a great cause. So on behalf of AIG and the entire salt team, this is John Darcey signing off from salt talks for today. We hope to see you back here again soon.