“U.S. divisions are fueled not just by the domestic demagogues, but they're being fueled by the countries abroad who want to see the U.S. in disarray, that want to sow the chaos and confusion here in the United States, really undermine our ability to fulfill our global responsibilities as well as to grow economically, politically and militarily.”
John O. Brennan served as director of the Central Intelligence Agency from March 2013 until January 2017, following a long a career in U.S. intelligence and counterterrorism. As director, he was responsible for intelligence collection, analysis, covert action, counterintelligence, and liaison relationships with foreign intelligence services.
Division among Americans on issues ranging from taxes to climate change creates opportunities for people and groups both foreign and domestic to weaken the United States’ standing in the world. Cyber tools have become more powerful in their ability to deceive and distort the truth. “They want to sow the chaos and confusion here in the United States, really undermine our ability to fulfill our global responsibilities as well as to grow economically, politically and militarily.”
Increased partisan polarization in Washington has threatened the traditionally non-partisan nature of national security among politicians. Foreign adversaries like Vladimir Putin have taken full advantages of those rifts in American politics and sought drive a wedge between U.S. politicians and citizens whenever possible. Looking back at the run-up to the 2016 presidential election, mistakes were made that allowed many of Russia’s subversion tactics to succeed.
LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE
SPEAKER
John Brennan
Director, Central Intelligence Agency
(2013-2017)
MODERATOR
Anthony Scaramucci
Founder & Managing Partner
SkyBridge
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Joe Eletto: (00:07)
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is Joe Eletto and I'm the production manager of SALT, which is a global thought leadership forum and networking platform encompassing finance, technology and geopolitics. SALT Talks is a series of digital interviews with the world's foremost investors, creators and thinkers and just as we do at our global SALT conferences, we aim to bolt and power big important ideas and provide our audience a window into the minds of subject matter experts. We are very excited today to welcome Director John Brennan to SALT Talks.
Joe Eletto: (00:39)
John Brennan served as director of the Central Intelligence Agency, from March of 2013 until January of 2017. From January 2009 to March 2013, Director Brennan was assistant to the president for Homeland Security and Counter Terrorism, shaping the US government's counter terrorism strategy and coordinating Obama administration and policies on Homeland Security, Counter Terrorism, Cyber Attacks, National Disasters and Pandemics. Director Brennan began his government service at the CIA, where he worked from 1980 to 2005 and specialize in Middle Eastern affairs and Counter Terrorism. He served the CIA's intelligence briefer to President Clinton, Chief of Staff to then Director of Central Intelligence, George Tenet and Deputy Executive Director.
Joe Eletto: (01:28)
In 2003, he led a multi-agency effort to establish what would become a National Counter Terrorism Center. Serving as the center's first director in 2004. He retired from the CIA in 2005 and worked in the private sector for three years. Mr. Brennan currently is a distinguished fellow at the Center of National Security at Fordham Law School, a distinguished scholar at the University of Texas at Austin, a senior intelligence and national security analyst for NBC and MSNBC and an adviser to a variety of private sector companies.
Joe Eletto: (02:00)
If you have any questions for Director Brennan during today's talks, please enter them in the Q&A box at the bottom of your video screen and hosting today's talk is Anthony Scaramucci, the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge as well as the Chairman of SALT. I'll turn it over to Anthony to begin.
Anthony Scaramucci: (02:16)
In addition to me John, I've got Robert Wolf with us, who's our partner on Strategic Worldviews, who was one of President Obama's economic advisers and was the former CEO of UBS Americas. It's great to have you on. I got to ask this question because this is my typical first question and we're going to turn it over to Robert in a second. But you've had this storied career, amazing patriot, but there's something about you that we don't know, that we can't find from Wikipedia and I know you've buried a lot of your stuff because you're in the CIA. But I want you to tell us something about your upbringing that we couldn't find from Wikipedia and how it created or helped you to create the career [inaudible 00:02:59] that you ultimately went on, John, Director Brennan.
John Brennan: (03:03)
Well, Anthony, first of all, thank you so much for the invitation and to participate in this conference today. Really, really privileged to do so. I grew up right across the river from New York city in Hudson County, New Jersey. Went to elementary and high school over there and then went to Fordham College in the Bronx. I was, grew up in the hard scrabble streets of Hudson County and really enjoyed that upbringing, but one of the things that relates in my memoir Undaunted, which is going to be released tomorrow, talks about my Catholicism early on and my interest in becoming a priest. So, until I was about 13 or 14, I was determined to enter the priesthood, but also, my ambition was to become the first American Pope. Again, I grew up in a very religious household and I was on that track and then when I got into high school, I guess, some other things diverted me from it. But, I had always hoped to be the first American Pope, especially when I was younger, who was Pope John XXIII, who was instrumental in terms of reforming the Catholic Church. So, that's one of the things that I think, probably is not known in Wikipedia.
Anthony Scaramucci: (04:13)
All right. I'm so happy I asked that question. As a fellow Catholic, so I have to ask this follow up question, if you don't mind. What was your name? What we're you going? We're you going to be a pious? Were you going to be a John, a Paul? What was the name you we're thinking of?
John Brennan: (04:29)
Well, my middle name is Owen and that's our family name, so I didn't know if I could in fact get the approval for the College of Cardinals to become Pope Owen I, but it was one of the things that I have thought of [crosstalk 00:04:40]
Anthony Scaramucci: (04:40)
You see that? This is new information, ladies and gentlemen. This is why we do SALT Talks. Look at this nugget of information we pulled out of our former CIA director. Let's talk about Undaunted and congratulations on the book and I see it there behind you and I have to confess, I haven't gotten it yet, but I look forward to reading it. Tell us why you wrote it. Tell us why we should read it, sir?
John Brennan: (05:05)
Well, in the preference of the book, I talk about the principle purposes. One purpose is to try to correct a lot of the mischaracterizations and misrepresentations that are in the public arena. About what the CIA does, what the CIA's mission is and also, what happened while I was CIA director and a CIA officer. It's just so much information out there that I think, people take as gospel and I wanted to at least provide my rendition of events and developments that took place during my career. But, more importantly, I wrote this book in order to give American citizens and especially young Americans a better sense of, what the national security establishment is like, what it's like to have a profession in intelligence or law enforcement and to give a bit of a behind the scenes look at how fascinating, how challenging and also, how rewarding that life of public service is.
John Brennan: (06:02)
I would like to be able to be able to convince young Americans who have tremendous skills and intellect and talent, to really consider public service as a part of their future career. This country faces enormous challenges in the 21st century and we really need the best and brightest that this country has to offer, to help keep this country and their fellow citizens safe. Unfortunately, I think, the chaos and confusion in Washington over the last several years has really discouraged a lot of young Americans, the students that I talk to at universities. It has discouraged them from filling out that application for FBI or CIA or the foreign service exam. I tell them, this is exactly the time they should be doing it and they should disregard all of that political nonsense that's going on in Washington because it's really important that this country stay strong, stay prosperous and secure in the future and we need them to join this public effort.
Anthony Scaramucci: (07:03)
You talked a lot in your career, I'm certain it's in the book abour our foreign adversaries, but also the fights that we're having domestically. If you could give us unclassified threat assessment right now, what are some of the greatest threats to America at this moment, Director?
John Brennan: (07:23)
Well, certainly there are a number of challenges on the international scene. Vladimir Putin continues to look at the US-Russia relationship as a zero-sum game and believes that anything he can do to bring the United States down is to Russia's betterment. We have issues with China, clearly on the trade front. We need to grapple with this growing Chinese behemoth on the international scene, both politically, economically and militarily are on terrorism, proliferation, these are all issues. But this is where it really requires the United States to have a much more united and unified approach to dealing with these world challenges. The United States, I'm a strong believer in American exceptionalism. Not because we're better or smarter than anyone else, it's because we've had tremendous good fortune having this wonderful large country with bountiful national resources, large sea coasts, navigable rivers, arable land. Much more than any other country and we're also the melting pot of this global community.
John Brennan: (08:32)
So, I think, we have exceptional responsibilities on that global stage and if we're going to continue to fight among ourselves and be polarized and have demagogues try to further divide us, we're not going to be able to fulfill the responsibilities we have on that global stage. So, I think, the greatest threat to us right now is the internal divisions that we have experience, especially over the last several years. Donald Trump is not the sole reason for that by any means. He's more of a symptom of this polarization within our country and I really do think that we need to find a way to try to bridge some of those differences and not be as internally divided as we are.
Anthony Scaramucci: (09:13)
Before I turn it over to Robert who has a set of questions for you and then we're going to take questions from the audience and one last question for you on this session. It's about our differences because you and I think, see the world very similarly, we have great love of country and we see the unity in the togetherness of the country more than we see our separation. Let me ask you, it's a two-part question, what is causing the separation, internally and then how are adversaries exploiting or making that separation, either through the use of social media or other things that they're doing and let's call it active measures to divide us even further, Director. Tell me what you think is the symptom and the impact on the system and then how ours it be exacerbated from the outside?
John Brennan: (10:03)
Well, clearly we're dealing with a lot of challenges in this day and age and the Americans have a lot of different views on climate change, on taxes, on social issues, on abortion. I think, there is a need for this debate within the United States because we're not going to be unanimous on these issues and that's fine. But, I think, there is a lot of effort to try to fuel the animus that exist between these various groups. As you point out, these internal US divisions are fueled not just by the domestic demagogues, but they're being fueled by the countries abroad who want to see the US in disarray. That want to see the chaos and confusion here in the United States, really undermine our ability to fulfill our global responsibilities as well as to grow economically, politically and militarily.
John Brennan: (10:58)
So, when I look out in the 21st century and issues related to for example, the digital domain, the cyber realm, which you point out. There's a lot of information operations underway to try to shape the perspectives and to distort the facts and the truth of that the American people are going to be [inaudible 00:11:17]. This is an effort to try to further divide, as we saw what happened in the 2016 election, the Russians were not just trying to undercut Hillary Clinton, [inaudible 00:11:28] Donald Trump, they also were trying to divide the Democrats between Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton. So again, that division within the United States here, really helps a lot of these foreign countries, these foreign adversaries, who again are trying to diminish the tremendous capability, the tremendous potential of the United States and this is where I do criticize our politicians in Washington, on both sides of [inaudible 00:11:53]. I'm not a Democrat or Republican, I served for six presidents, three Democrats, three Republicans, they all took their jobs very, very seriously.
John Brennan: (12:01)
Although I disagree with the policies of everyone of those presidents, they all approached it with the appropriate attitude and seriousness that the position deserves. Unfortunately, Donald Trump has not done that and that's why I decided to speak out in this second retirement of mine and I wish I didn't have to do that. Anthony, I just wanted to say thank you to you, to speak out, speaking out forcefully and honestly. I wish more people would do that because we really need to get this country back on track for all Americans. Not just for a particular group or political party.
Anthony Scaramucci: (12:35)
Well, I do appreciate that, sir. You ruined my punchline, I'm just going to say that I'm very shy and introverted, but now that you've thanked me, I have to accept your thanks and as you know it's not easy for either of us, but we both love the country. The first time I met you was actually at a [inaudible 00:12:51] launch, I think, we were over at the university club after I just gotten back from Afghanistan and once you come back from Afghanistan as a civilian and you see the magnitude of our problems over there, it totally colors your opinion differently than if you don't have that information. So, somebody like you that has been given the gift to have all of these information, to be the patriot you are, we're very grateful to you. Robert has questions as well and I'm going to turn it over to the audience and it's a real honor for us to have you, sir. And-
John Brennan: (13:21)
Thanks again, Anthony.
Anthony Scaramucci: (13:22)
Can you hold up the book? Because I'm a little bit of a promotional person. Let's bring the book up and put it up there because I don't have my book. There you go. Okay. So, we'll be out there promoting that book for you, sir, but go ahead, Robert.
Robert Wolf: (13:36)
Well thank you, Anthony. It's always easy to follow you when I send you my questions and you take half of them upfront. So, I mean, this is a-
Anthony Scaramucci: (13:43)
I was going to take [crosstalk 00:13:45]
Robert Wolf: (13:44)
This is the way the partnership works with Anthony, John, so be aware. [crosstalk 00:13:48]
Anthony Scaramucci: (13:49)
I mean, I know you're smarter than me, that's why I would've been cheating off you in law school, but I mean, what can I tell you. [inaudible 00:13:55] the questions.
Robert Wolf: (13:55)
Well, perfect segue, because I do want to thank John before I begin with the questions of, we have something in common. The president went to Florida and then John decided to pass them on to my alma mater at Wharton, so that at least we have that one thing in common that we all went to the same school. I guess, together. So, thanks for that handoff. I'm going to start something a little lighter, John. You're a very serious guy, I think, that's what we love about you because when we listen to you, we know you're serious and so, we have to actually listen because the detail matters. But, what do you do for fun?
John Brennan: (14:35)
Well, after 33+ years in the government, I quite frankly didn't spend as much time with family. I know that's almost a trite, explanation about why people retire from the government, but I missed out a lot in terms of children and grandchildren as well as on culture, so I'm catching up through your reading books. I'm trying to get into better shape, I try to exercise every morning when I was a CIA director, but now as I'm getting up there in age, I'm trying to make sure that I am watching my diet and walking-
Robert Wolf: (15:10)
The question was, what do you do for fun?
John Brennan: (15:12)
Those things are fun for me. They really are. And spending time with family and-
Robert Wolf: (15:17)
That's great.
John Brennan: (15:18)
... and as a grandfather, there's nothing that beats being a grandfather [crosstalk 00:15:21]
Robert Wolf: (15:22)
Good for you.
John Brennan: (15:22)
... it's a lot of fun.
Robert Wolf: (15:23)
I want to take from where Anthony went. We're going to go a little deeper, but you mentioned you worked for three Republicans and three Democratic presidents and even though you had disagreements, you respected them and they respected you. Otherwise, you wouldn't have not lasted. Anthony and I started this business going into our second year, called Strategic Worldviews, that is non-partisan, bipartisan, however you want to explain it. We have Austin [inaudible 00:15:51]. We have Steve [Moore 00:15:54] and Jason [inaudible 00:15:55]. We've done meetings with you and Susan Rice and General Kelly and Tom Bossert, all walks of life and H.R McMaster is going to be following you. I guess, the first thing that we want to know is what was the turn of bipartisanship? When did it just start separating where literally everyone goes to their corners?
John Brennan: (16:21)
It's a good question. Given that I was in the intelligence community and business for many years, I always enjoy being able to go to the intelligence committees on TheHill. In the 90s and even after 9/11 attacks, especially because it was a strong bipartisanship as you say, maybe even non-partisanship. Whether they were Democratic or Republican and they would hang their political affiliation at the door and then really deal with [inaudible 00:16:46] issues. Unfortunately, and I haven't been able to put my finger on it and I think, part of it is a result of the explosion in that digital environment and so much information is going out there. That bipartisanship really has diminished because the fringes on both sides are pulling people away from this center. If you look at the number of seats in the house in the senate, very few of them are really competitive. They're either red or blue, it's because they have been pulled to those ends of the spectrum and I really do believe that there is a need to have get back to the days where Tip O'Neill and Ronald Reagan can actually sit down and have real disagreements, but also raise a glass together and recognize that they have a large responsibility than just to their party or to themselves. They have a responsibility to their country.
John Brennan: (17:37)
Unfortunately, I think, there had been too many craven politicians over the last decade, two decades that really have just intentionally misrepresented the facts in order to promote their personal agendas, their partisan agendas and it is to the [inaudible 00:17:53] of this country. But, we see it, not just here in the United States, but also in other countries around the world. We see a lot of these fringe groups in Europe that are able to now become, in France for example, Marine Le Pen, it was pulling in the single digits, six or eight percent, but then she's able to challenge the party, they were able to challenge for to be ascendant in the government. I think, we're seeing this phenomenon globally, that there is this polarization taking place, partly as a result, I think, of reactions to globalization.
John Brennan: (18:29)
Globalization, I believe is inevitable and it really has better society around the globe, but there are a lot of people who are reacting adversely to the increasing intrusion, as they see it of foreign workers, of foreign influences, of migrant populations and that has led to greater nativism and a [inaudible 00:18:54] that really has led a lot of people to have this adverse attitude toward things that are new and progressivism. At the same time, there are a lot of influences that come in and that are not respecting some of those national identities and national traditions. So, I think, part of this is revolutionary evolution in terms of the global landscape that really is pitting the old world against the new world. I think, some demagogues take advantage of it.
Robert Wolf: (19:25)
That segues into the next question, pretty easily. I don't want to make it nationalism and protection versus globalization, I want to actually center it where we are today. So, how should we look at a Trump re-election versus a Biden presidency from a national security perspective? They cannot be more stark and feel [inaudible 00:19:46].
John Brennan: (19:47)
Yeah. Well, having worked closely with Joe Biden throughout the Obama administration for eight years. He is somebody who is deeply experienced in a lot of these foreign affairs and national security issues. Joe Biden is somebody who would like to bring our troops home from places like Afghanistan, Iraq. He has seen the horrors of war close and I do think he doesn't believe that the United States should be involved in the military adventurism that actually got us involved in Iraq. Afghanistan was a much different situation. But, the thing that I think, Joe Biden will do differently than Donald Trump was doing, which is to really reach out to our partners and allies around the world and to recognize that the United States is strong because of those relationships because we have fulfilled that leadership role. The mantra of America First, America First, that Donald Trump issues, really has quite shrilled to the ears of a lot of our partners and allies around the world because it makes appear that the United States is going to try to advantage itself to the disadvantage of others.
John Brennan: (20:49)
So, I think, one of the first things that Joe Biden would do is to really try to get those relationships back on track and also, try to deal honestly and directly with the issues such as North Korea's nuclear program, that has not been reversed and that continues to develop and grow. I think, Joe Biden will deal with China in a very forceful manner, but I think, he's going to be much more surgical and much more strategic as opposed to blunt instruments. I think, Joe Biden will bring a different approach. I think, if Donald Trump gets re-elected, he'll continue along this path with the obsequiousness toward Vladimir Putin as well as trying to demonstrate a muscularity with little, quite frankly little substance behind me.
Robert Wolf: (21:42)
Well, you brought up Putin, so I'm going to stay with that. You were working with the Obama administration during mid 2016. In retrospect, do you think the public should've been more aware of the Russian interference on the election and when you look at the moves made by James Comey, that seemed to have really change the outcome by many perspectives, not all. Bring us back to that time and maybe if it was, call it a mulligan, what would you have done? Not you, but what do you think should've been done?
John Brennan: (22:26)
Well, it's an important issue and it's still living with us now and I devoted a couple of chapters in the book to it. It was quite evident I think, to people within the Obama administration as well as to the American public that Russia was trying to interfere with the election. It was in the media, it was in the press and seeing Donald Trump's public calls for Russia to find Hillary's emails, he made no secret of his relationship and interest in having Russia assist him the election. It was a very, very difficult time and we we're very concerned about possible interference by Russia in the technical infrastructure of our electoral system. We were trying to understand whether or not they were going to do something to try to affect the votalities, we saw that they were navigating into a certain state systems. We didn't know whether they were going to try to pull down the voter registration roles or not, but what was much more impactful as well as insidious were there information operations. All the things that they did in social media, things that I have learned about, an awful a lot, since I left the government.
John Brennan: (23:30)
In terms of the personas that they would put out there in Facebook, in Twitter, misrepresenting themselves as Americans and really influencing the attitudes and views of American citizens and I do think, it did effect votes by what they did. I talked in the book also, about Jim Comey's decisions to have that press conference as well as to notify congress that he was basically reopening the investigation just about a week or two before the election and I have tremendous respect for Jim Comey. I never saw a partisan bone in his body, in terms of how he carry out his duties as FBI director, but, I disagree with those decisions. Sure at 2020 hindsight is much more greater fidelity, but I don't think he should've done those things. I don't know all the things that he took into account when he made those decisions, but I do think that on the eve of an election and given the Department of Justice guidelines that really, should not do anything in the period of time before a general election-
Robert Wolf: (24:35)
Does that correlate to the idea that, we should or should not have proliferated what was happening from the possibility of what Russia was doing because it was really pushed under the carpet.
John Brennan: (24:54)
Well, there were public announcements by the Obama administration about Russia's attempts to interfere with the election in October. Secretary of Homeland and Security Jay Johnson and Director of National Intelligence James Clapper came out with a statement about it. We did send messages to the Russians, I think, I was the first US official to brace the Russians when I spoke to the head of their internal security services in early August of 2016 and told them to knock it off. I don't know whether or not our warnings to them dissuaded them from doing more than what they did. In the book, I talked about some of the options we considered, including rattling the Russia's cyber cage. Everybody thinks that China and Russia have much greater cyber capabilities than the United States. That's not true. We have tremendous capability, but on the eve of a hotly contested presidential election, did we want to engage in a cyber war with Russia, because they could escalate that and their objective was to undermine the integrity of the US election.
John Brennan: (25:53)
By doing that, by doing something in the cyber front, would that have prompted the Russians to actually increase what they did? President Obama did not want to do anything that was going to interfere, one way or the other in that election. I think, we have to still learn a lot about how we can deter these types of attacks, whether they be technical attacks or information operational attacks because I think, the foundations of our democracy is really depend on them.
Robert Wolf: (26:19)
John, I want to carry from that today. One of the top streaming movies is called, The Social Dilemma and maybe how you learned [inaudible 00:26:31] post-CIA, I would probably say, I'm learning things as well with having kids in their 20s.the documentary really goes after internet privacy and the lack thereof. When you know think about Facebook and Twitter, one, should it be a more closed environment? Should it be regulated? Should we even be on it? What do you recommend to your grandkids on Facebook, on Twitter? You don't have to go into detail about each of those, although we'd loved to have you view that, but more, how do you look at social media and then, the idea of we're giving away our privacy and our data?
John Brennan: (27:16)
Well Robert, this is the question for the 21st century and for our country. How are we going to try to have the digital domain continue to advance our prosperity and our security and not undermine it? Because it is the environment where most human transactions and activities take place these days. The challenge is, the digital domain is owned and operated by the private sector, about 80 or 85%. So, what is the appropriate government role in that environment? What should the government be doing and we see that the Chinese and others really have this very authoritarian and suppressive policy toward the internet. But, here in this country, we really cherish the foundations of freedom and freedom of speech and privacy [inaudible 00:28:05]. There is a tension between those things on one side of the ledger and then security on the other. How is the government going to work with the private sector to try to better enhance the security of that digital domain?
Robert Wolf: (28:19)
But you know that news and newspapers, I mean, those are regulated.
John Brennan: (28:23)
Well, they are, yes. But, I must tell you because when I was at the White House, cyber was in my portfolio. It's one thing in terms of the physical world and regulating things that you can actually see and touch. That's why we have regulations whether it deals with orders or [inaudible 00:28:42] or the physical media. When you start getting into that digital environment, it means so much is happening there, it's almost like a wild, wild west and I'm glad to see that the Facebooks and the Twitters now have less [inaudible 00:28:54] than they did earlier. When they thought they were not being exploited, but I didn't say that they have totally [crosstalk 00:29:00]. What they're doing now, is i think, recognizing that they are being exploited by mal actors whether they be foreign or domestic and they need to tidy up their own systems and do more self regulation and I think we see more and more of that. But, I have long called for a national commission, just like we had after the 9/11 attacks.
Robert Wolf: (29:21)
Yeah.
John Brennan: (29:21)
So, that there's a national commission, bipartisan commission, independent commission that is going to look at this issue of the digital domain. Bringing together the futurists, the technologists, the engineers, the businessmen, the bankers, government officials and others, to try to do what we can to ensure that, that environment is going to thrive for our children and grandchildren. But, I must tell you, there's still a lot of stuff that goes on there.
Robert Wolf: (29:46)
Beyond Twitter, are you on an other social media platforms?
John Brennan: (29:49)
No. No. The only reason why I'm on Twitter is because I felt that Donald Trump was just almost monopolizing that. I didn't want to seed that environment to him. But now, I'm-
Robert Wolf: (29:57)
Yeah, me too. I'm on Twitter only because Scaramucci use to go after me when he was with Trump, so I had to do the same thing.
John Brennan: (30:03)
Yeah, exactly. [crosstalk 00:30:04]
Robert Wolf: (30:05)
We're similar that way.
John Brennan: (30:06)
Yeah.
Anthony Scaramucci: (30:08)
You get fake news Director Brennan, even on a SALT Talk. Robert, because we're going to run out of time-
Robert Wolf: (30:14)
Right.
Anthony Scaramucci: (30:14)
... let's ask him a couple of these questions that have come in, if you don't mind.
Robert Wolf: (30:18)
Thank you.
Anthony Scaramucci: (30:19)
Director, this is a great one. How do we restore that reputation of these great agencies, the CIA, the FBI, assuming that you can get to a post Trump administration?
John Brennan: (30:31)
Well, I'd like to think that my former colleagues at CIA, FBI, NSA and other places are continuing to do their work. Unfortunately, I think, there has been some people at the top of these organizations that have abused their authorities. The William Barrs, the John Ratcliffes, the Richard Grenells and others, but I do think that their rank in file, the women and men who sacrificed so much for their fellow citizens really feel strongly about that mission. What you need in the Biden administration is for a President Biden, a Vice President Harris as well as other senior officials of both parties to really highlight the importance of their work as well as the confidence they have that these individuals are going to carry out their work and their mission irrespective of whatever political party might be empower and irrespective of what their own personal political sentiments might be. I do believe that it's resilient to environment.
Anthony Scaramucci: (31:25)
Director Brennan, I'm going to ask you for a little bit of a lightning round here because we've got series of questions and I want to keep you to our schedule. But, I think these are very interesting questions. Let's do a little bit of a lightning round. Do you think Saudi Arabia will follow the UAE and Bahrain in normalizing relations with Israel?
John Brennan: (31:45)
I think, ultimately, yes. It all depends on what happens I think, in this presidential election. Mohammed bin Salman, the crowned prince of Saudi Arabia, who basically controls the reigns of power in Saudi Arabia is very close to Donald Trump and Jared Kusher and I do think, that Joe Biden is going to take a different approach to Saudi Arabia, particularly to MBS, given MBS has responsibility for their horrific killing and dismemberment of Jamal Khashoggi.
Anthony Scaramucci: (32:12)
Okay. What is your opinion of the elections, sir based on your intelligence and your life experience? Is it possible to steal an election in the United States?
John Brennan: (32:25)
Steal, I do think that Joe Biden is going to have many more votes and more electoral votes as a result of the election in November 3rd. I do think that Donald Trump and his advisers are going to pursue legal challenges and try to bring it up to the Supreme Court. I do believe that his election is going to be more lopsided than maybe some people think and the lopsided nature of that, I think, will basically undercut their ability to present these legal challenges. But, I didn't think Donald Trump is going to be elected in 2016, I didn't follow domestic politics at that time. It shows that I didn't appreciate the extent to which Donald Trump was able to hoodwink so many Americans in the vote.
Anthony Scaramucci: (33:11)
The threat assessment, sir. It's a month after 9/11, of their 19th anniversary. Your threat assessment of domestic terror here in the United States from foreign adversaries or domestic adversaries for that matter. What's your threat assessment?
John Brennan: (33:30)
Well, I am very concerned about these homegrown groups of whether they be on the right or the left. I think, there is a real problem with white supremacists groups here in this country. The QAnons and others and I do know that there are a number of foreign actors that try to stoke those fires of violence and extremism here in the states. We also see it on the left as well and so, I think, the bureau, FBI has its work cut out for it to try to identify those foreign links as well as their sources of financing because a lot of these groups really do rely on the financing that may come on from abroad as well as from various domestic quarters.
Anthony Scaramucci: (34:09)
Just a question on QAnon, sir. I don't know if you've read the book, Active Measures by Thomas Rid. It was recommended to me by General McMaster. But when you read the book, it feels like QAnon is inspired by Active Measures. Is it a Russian intelligence movement? What do you think is going on with QAnon?
John Brennan: (34:29)
I don't think it was initiated or incubated by Russia. I do think, there are domestic players here who start this, but then foreign actors like Russia, specifically Russia, particularly since there are a lot of folks within the Russian establishment who had very right wing of sentiments themselves provided support and enabled the growth of QAnon. But, when I was in the government, they were enough spots within this country that were the source of right wing, extremist supremacist movements.
Anthony Scaramucci: (35:09)
Last question and then will turn it back to Robert. Is Afghanistan, in your knowledge of the region, is Afghanistan ever going to be what we would describe in the west a stable, democracy, less tribal and more integrated into the global community or is Afghanistan going to be what it has always been, just a very difficult spot in the world?
John Brennan: (35:38)
I'd like to think that we're going to see incremental progress in Afghanistan over the coming decade or two. But, anybody who has illusions that we're going to see western style democracy break out in Afghanistan, I think, are just deluded themselves. During the Arab spring when there is a lot of hope, including the Obama administration, that democracy was going to develop in a lot of these countries, democracy is not like a light switch. Here we are 240 or so, years after, our independence, we still are working on some of the democratic processes and foundations. So, I think Afghanistan is going to continue to go through some tough times, but I'd like to think that it's going be a lot of blocking and tackling and you're going to be grinding out, not yardage, but footage, I think, in the coming years.
Robert Wolf: (36:24)
Thank you. Just to go back to where we are today. If you were the director of the CIA during this COVID crisis, how would you think of it whether the importance of reopening the lack thereof or the need for protocols, the impact of security. How would you think of it and because right now, the way we think of it, there is no protocols which is why it opens and closes, the cases are higher today than they were Memorial Day, more deaths today than they were Memorial Day. It seems that the direction is getting worse, not better and then you have the White House, have their own super spreader.
John Brennan: (37:09)
Yeah. In fact, when I was at the White House as President Obama's assistant for Homeland Security, it was when we had the H1N1 pandemic in April and the rest of the 2009 year and it was quite a challenge and we had to go to school on trying to find out exactly what we needed to do first, how we needed to rely on the medical experts and data. But, one of the things that I really appreciated from President Obama was, he told us to rely on the medical experts, rely on the data, insure that data is going to be the foundation for policies and guidance that we give out, but also make sure that we're not confusing the public and that there needs to be coherence. One of the things that I really criticize in the administration for is the lack of coherence in its communications to the American public and how it undercuts the guidance from CDC and clearly, they want to put a positive spin on things.
John Brennan: (38:04)
When I was director of CIA, if we had some type of health crisis, I want to make sure that I understood exactly what the recommended guidelines were or how we should deal with this challenge, the medical challenge, what should be the protocols to point out, how we should rotate staff, distance and making sure that we're doing everything possible to minimize the impact of this virus, but there does seem to be a some chaos and confusion within the executive branch and this is when the American people look toward leadership. In the aftermath of 9/11, it didn't matter if you were Democrat or Republican, George Bush, when he stood on the embers of 9/11 of the attacks of the World Trade Center with the bull horn, he was speaking to all Americans rallied behind the Bush administration to get Al-Qaeda. The same thing should be happening now and unfortunately, all's has happened is bare divisions among ourselves and either with the medical community. So, I do think, coherence of approaching and communication is critically, critically important.
Robert Wolf: (39:07)
So, I'm going to play a little devil's advocate here, but it's not really made, so I'll explain it to you. There's this book, Three Seconds Until Midnight and actually, it was the Steve Bannon who recommend it to us, that some of us read it, but that's a different story, but it's written, it came out November of last year-
Anthony Scaramucci: (39:25)
And so, he read it anyway, John, I just want to make sure you know that [inaudible 00:39:29].
Robert Wolf: (39:30)
It's written by two epidemiologists and what they will say to those politicians and those agencies is that, after the AIDS epidemic took place, that CDC and NIH started starving the idea of viruses and how to look at viruses and that this was very much in our face that out of China with what Africa with rats and bats that these viruses would come, but instead we put all our money towards diabetes and cancer research and that we should have seen this coming because we were not prepared for it and this came out like, I said, less than a year ago. Do you feel that there's truth to that in a way or do you feel or not?
John Brennan: (40:21)
Well, I think that's the H1N1 pandemic in 2009 really gave us a lot of lessons about how to deal then with Ebola and other types of health challenges, medical challenges around the world. Have we done everything possible to prepare for the next medical challenge or pandemic? Probably not because it requires a lot of investment in terms of contingency planning and unfortunately, specially the way our government works and with election cycles, there is not that continuity I think, of effort that is required to deal with the multiple challenges that we face in the country and there are so many out there. So, you have terrorism, you have proliferation, you have Russia, you have [inaudible 00:41:08], you have China, you have pandemics, you have health issues, you have climate and one of the real challenges for any administration is the prioritization that you give to this issues and how you then allocate resources. But, clearly, I think, on the health front and when I think about and I know about some of the various initiatives around the globe on genetic engineering, other types of things in the biological front, it really worries me.
John Brennan: (41:32)
Because there is tremendous sophistication out there and tremendous opportunity for people to use the scientific knowledge for bad purposes. That's where I think, there needs to be again, an approach, a bipartisan, non-partisan approach to these issues, so that we don't allow the most recent shiny object to distract us from taking care of the multitude of issues and challenges that we face as a country. And again, going forward, I mentioned cyber in the digital realm, that wasn't an issue for us 50 years ago, now it is one of the most important issues. Climate change, what are we doing on a regular basis? Just like pandemics and viruses, what can we do now, so that when something like this occurs, we are better positioned to deal with it and I still think we have a lot of ways to go before we're better positioned as a nation to deal with these issues.
Anthony Scaramucci: (42:28)
Great. [crosstalk 00:42:29]
Robert Wolf: (42:29)
This is my last question. Do I have time for one more, Anthony or not?
Anthony Scaramucci: (42:32)
Yeah. Let's fit it in quickly because I want to keep him on time, but go ahead.
Robert Wolf: (42:35)
Yup. So, today one thing Anthony and I talked about and all our clients is that, systemic and equality is in our face. Health and equality, wealth and equality, education and equality, race and equality and we're seeing it every which way in the country today. How would you look at that from a national security perspective when literally every aspect of our life today is showing that this recovery is really a K-shaped recovery of the haves and have nots and it's literally separating more than we could ever imagine, just from security perspective.
John Brennan: (43:16)
Yeah. Well, that's not an easy question and it doesn't have a short answer to it. I think, you're absolutely right. In equality, across so many areas, wealth, income, opportunity, education, you name it. It's fueling a lot of these problems again, not just here in the United States, but also globally, both within countries as well as between countries and so, maybe what we're facing right now, with the COVID and the economic downturn and this recovery that is quite bifurcated as you pointed out, maybe it's going to bring it to stark relief. The challenges and the problems here that we need to try to course correct. Democracy and capitalism have served us well over the last two centuries and I am a firm advocate of both, but I do think we need to think through how democracy and capitalism are going to thrive in the 21st century, given the ecosystem that they operate within now and just because something might've worked a 100 years ago or 200 years ago, does not mean that it doesn't need some adaptation, so I do think the issue of inequality, especially inequality of opportunity is one of the most important issues that I do hope our government and other governments will address.
Robert Wolf: (44:25)
Thank you. Anthony?
Anthony Scaramucci: (44:27)
Well, Ambassador Brennan, thank you so much for joining us on SALT Talks. I hope we get you back after the election and have a little bit of a debriefing on where we think the world is going. For me personally, sir, I'm glad that you're not Pope Owen I. Okay, because something tells me, you would've been a really strict Orthodox Catholic pope. Okay, just getting that vibe from you and so, I'm enjoying you as our former CIA director. I just want to thank you so much for your service to the country and your amazing patriotism, sir. You're a true patriot and we're big fans of yours, sir. Thank you again.
John Brennan: (45:03)
Well, thank you, Anthony for the kind words and thank you for what you're doing today and this invitation. I really appreciate it. You take care [crosstalk 00:45:09]
Anthony Scaramucci: (45:09)
Good luck with the book. Let's hold the book up one more time. See, I usually do this, but I don't have a copy.
John Brennan: (45:14)
It's officially-
Anthony Scaramucci: (45:15)
There you go, Undaunted by John Brennan [crosstalk 00:45:18]
John Brennan: (45:17)
Officially released tomorrow. Yeah.
Robert Wolf: (45:19)
Great.
Anthony Scaramucci: (45:19)
Check your bookstores starting tomorrow, okay? Well, God bless you, sir. Best of luck with the book. All right, Robert and I and Joe will see you soon and that's it for SALT Talks.