“If you want a company to fail, surround yourself with yes-men.”
Mishal Kanoo currently serves as the Chairman of The Kanoo Group, one of the largest, longest running and independent family-owned groups of companies in the Gulf region. He holds chief positions as Chairman/Director of various reputable companies, including AXA Insurance Gulf, Gulf Capital, KHK & Partners Limited, Dalma Capital, Johnson Arabia LLC and KAAF Investments.
Started in 1890 in Bahrain, The Kanoo Group has been effective at avoiding the generational drop off as control passes down. Often times, there is a disconnect between a family group’s founding and the third generation of control. The Kanoo Group has maintained longevity by treating each generation as an opportunity to change. “We were lucky in that every generation within my family looked upon the new one as a rebirth of a new business.”
Among the recent shifts in approach is the inclusion of more women in the family business. Women are not only equal in ability, but more importantly, they offer a different perspective that contributes to more well-rounded decisions. The combining of men and women on boards creates a long-term benefit where both groups learn to adopt and incorporate a more holistic view when making decisions.
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SPEAKER
Mishal Kanoo
Chairman
The Kanoo Group
MODERATOR
Anthony Scaramucci
Founder & Managing Partner
SkyBridge
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Rachel Pether: (00:08)
Hi everyone and welcome back to Salt Talks. My name is Rachel Pether and I'm a senior advisor for SkyBridge Capital based here in Abu Dhabi as well as being the MC for Salt, a thought leadership forum and networking platform that encompasses business, technology and politics. Now as many of you know, Salt Talks is a series of digital interviews, with some of the worlds foremost investors, creators and thinkers. And what we're really trying to do here is, provide our audience with a window in to the mind of subject matter experts.
Rachel Pether: (00:40)
Today's focus is going to be on family businesses, entrepreneurship and gender diversity. And who better to discuss these topics with, than Mishal Kanoo, one of the most iconic business figures in the Middle East. Mishal is chairman of The Kanoo Group, one of the longest running, largest and independent family owned businesses in the Gulf region. He is also a motivational speaker, is published in business journals on a regular basis and holds key positions as chairman or director of various companies, including AXA Insurance Gulf, Gulf Capital, KHK and Partners Limited, Dalma Capital, Johnson Arabia and CALF Investments.
Rachel Pether: (01:22)
Finally, Mishal is also something of a role model to me for the absolute tireless work that he does in terms of female empowerment and gender diversity in the region. So Mishal, welcome to Salt Talks. It's a real pleasure.
Mishal Kanoo: (01:38)
Thank you very much for inviting me.
Rachel Pether: (01:41)
So, we have quite a geographically diverse audience on today's calls, and I know what they say about assumptions, but assuming that people don't have much knowledge about you or your background, could you just tell me a bit about your personal story?
Mishal Kanoo: (01:58)
Yeah. It's kind of an embarrassing situation to be put it, because t's not easy for me to sit and talk about myself. However, I will say the things that I am very proud of are the fact that I'm married and have four beautiful children, and they mean the world to me. And that is my main concern in life, other than of course, ensuring that whatever businesses I'm in, does the best that they can do and make sure that the people who work within the organization also get as best an opportunity for them to grow and to benefit from the organizations we're in.
Mishal Kanoo: (02:40)
I think it's very important, because we tend to forget as humans, and we put organizations at the top of the list, but reality is also going to be the humans are to be at the top of the list, and recognizing them and recognizing the people who help build any business or any institution. They are the key personnel, they are the people who you should be saying thank you to all the time, and we seem to forget that. And I would never be in the place I am in, without the fact that I am member of my family, I am member of my company, I am a member of my community, I am member of my society, and each of them play an important role in where I have arrived.
Mishal Kanoo: (03:28)
And I think it's also very important to recognize that education is what got to me sit here with yourself and be able to sit and talk to you. Education is formal education and education is informal education, and it is both of them, being able to utilize both of those, again, is the reason why I'm sitting here and able to be able to talk to you about this situation or any thought that you'd like to express and talk to me about.
Rachel Pether: (04:00)
Fabulous. And I'd love to come back a bit later to the points you made about education, but you do work for one of the oldest, largest and most well respected family businesses in the region. Did you always want to work in the family business?
Mishal Kanoo: (04:16)
The reality is, yes and no. Yes, I always wanted to give back to my family because they've been very generous with me. They ... when somebody takes care of you, somebody ensures that you have an opportunity, I think the very least you can do is give back something to them. And no, because after a while it becomes a bit hard to continue pursuing all the goals you want to do from personal point of view.
Mishal Kanoo: (04:48)
It's not that I have anything against my family. In fact, I love my family, and I think what you call ... as I said, I wouldn't be sitting here if it wasn't for my family and all the support I get from my family. It's what makes family businesses special, not just my family, by families in general. And it's having the heritage. The company started in 1890 in Bahrain. So, having that heritage in this region is not easy to come by. Having a huge network made up of family members ... at one time, which was made up of uncles, for me, they were made up of uncles, and now made up of cousins. And each one brings his or her own specialty, knowledge base, and we all play a whole role together to make this company significant. And being part of that, for me, is really special.
Mishal Kanoo: (05:40)
So, while I'm not able to do everything I want to do from a personal point of view, but having this as something to fall back on and something to be full of pride about, not arrogance, but pride in my family and all we've accomplished, keeps me and drives me forward.
Rachel Pether: (06:03)
And so if you go back to 1890, the family business was established 130 years ago, you've been through a number of generational wealth transfers during that time. How well prepared do you think family businesses are in general in the Gulf Region for intergenerational wealth transfer? And maybe in terms of being institutionalized enough to make that transfer without too much [inaudible 00:06:30] political tension?
Mishal Kanoo: (06:31)
You ask a very, very important questions, because a lot of family businesses, not just in the Gulf, but in the world as a whole ... there is an axiom that usually says, and sorry it's going to be male-dominated in terms of the wording, but it's, "The grandfather starts the business. The son takes care of the business. And the grandson fritters it away." Again, doesn't matter which country you're from, there's always an axiom that's similar to that one. And it's usually by hitting the third generation, and the reason why hitting the third generation, the business starts to die, is because there is a loss of connection between the last generation, the third one, and the first generation in terms of the struggle and the pain that went into making it, and there is a disconnect. Because of that disconnect, they can't see why they have to continue the struggle.
Mishal Kanoo: (07:29)
I think we were lucky in that every generation within my family, every generation looked upon the new one as a rebirth of a new business. We take new generation, and we look at this, say, "Okay, this is what we have currently, but now the next generation has to add onto it and build up on it. It's a new generation, and a new idea, new thought." It's not a disconnect, because we are consistently and constantly talking to one another, interacting with one another.
Mishal Kanoo: (07:59)
I got to see the pains of my uncles who helped institutionalize for us this business in the 1960s. At that time, it was a very strange beast. Usually, it was the father running the business and bringing his son or sons on board, and then they would run everything. Whatever the father said, the sons would apply. My uncles, two of them at the time, my uncle [inaudible 00:08:31] and my uncle [inaudible 00:08:32], God rest their souls, decided we are going to institutionalize this. They saw the British equivalent that they were competing against, and they brought in professional managers. And the professional managers had a very strong say in terms of how the business was run, in conjunction with, by setting up a board, by setting up how a business should be functioning, governance structures. We did that in the 60s, and I think that was one of the reasons why we managed to institutionalize at such an early time.
Rachel Pether: (09:06)
I love what you said about you're also constantly, not reinventing yourself, that's maybe the wrong word, but trying to be innovative within the family business. Where are you looking at in this generation, and how have you changed your investment strategy and focus to make sure you stay current?
Mishal Kanoo: (09:26)
What's happening currently in the world is a complete different ball game compared to what happened before. In the past, you had geographical/political barriers, and would block companies to come into your playground and start competing with you. Right now, it doesn't really matter what business you're in, if it is expandable, if it's available, it'll be coming to your neighborhood whether you like it or not. And you have to start to say, "Okay, I have what I have, and it'll take a while for this current business to be threatened. But there are opportunities on the other side, on the businesses are coming up. Which one of them is going to be a unicorn?" I'm using the moniker that's used currently for large companies.
Mishal Kanoo: (10:18)
And, it's a shot in the dark, because really you don't know which one it's going to be. The key is trying to understand, do you want to stay in your current businesses and hope to God it goes away, which I can't see happening. So you want to stay in your businesses, and look completely outside of your area of comfort? Or, are you going to look at your businesses, and say, "Okay, what businesses can I add to that are going to scale up, and I can be part of that huge scale up that's going to happen?"
Mishal Kanoo: (10:48)
Right now, every company is basically ... family businesses anyway ... are trying to figure out which one is the best approach. I think those who are going to say "I'm going to seal myself up in a cocoon, and everything is going to go back to what was before," they will very soon cease to exist. Of the other two, one is a more hotshot hoping it actually happens, and the other one is a bit more focused.
Mishal Kanoo: (11:13)
Now, it might be that it will take a while for the ones that they are concentrating, the investments they're concentrating on, will bear fruit. The question is, to what degree are you willing to be patient? If you were an early investor, for example, in Amazon, and first five years, horrible. Next five years might not have been that great. But 20 years on, wow, it's there, this is the company you want to be part of. How many people had the breadth to wait for that to happen? Because it might be that it's not the business that's wrong, it's not the management that's wrong, it's just an issue of time because you need things to catch up with you.
Mishal Kanoo: (11:58)
Or, in some cases, for example, things that happen over night. I mean, you have so many companies that started in say 2018, and today are bigger than companies that existed 100 years ago. It's a matter of sometimes luck, and I know we try to think in business or investment there's no such thing as luck. Yes there is. And sometimes it's an educated guess, and perseverance, because again, whenever someone invests in private equity invests in a VC fund, the rule is one or two are spectacular, three are okay, and the rest are garbage. The question is, is in any business, if you're going to take that approach, you must be able to hope, of your bouquet of investments that you've invested in, one or two of them are actually going to be successful, and you stay with it.
Mishal Kanoo: (13:02)
Now, how lucky are you? Well, that depends on how lucky are you?
Rachel Pether: (13:11)
Yeah, no, I think you're almost de-risking yourself as well, aren't you? If you're investing in companies that can have a direct impact on existing companies in your portfolio, you obviously have a very diverse portfolio.
Rachel Pether: (13:25)
I do want to go down further on some investment questions, but-
Mishal Kanoo: (13:29)
Before you get to this, I also want to focus on one thing. The current businesses, any business currently in [inaudible 00:13:39] is not going to go away for these new technologies. People forget that technologies, any technology is a tool that will be utilized by a business. This is key. I'm not going to invest in technology for the sake of technology. I'm going to invest in technology that's going to actually help what I currently have. So, the key is to be able to understand where I am and what technologies are out there that I can add on to my business, because that business is not going away.
Mishal Kanoo: (14:06)
For example, food is not going to go away. Logistics is not going to go away. Shipping is not going to go away. Air travel is not going to go away. But the tools that will get me from point A to point B, or the project from point A to point B, or the service from point A to point B, if I can get those tools that make me better positioned than my competitor, is what will drive business towards me. So, I just wanted to mention this point. The old world businesses should not be thrown aside in the thinking they're dead. They're not dead. It's just how many new tools can I add on to my current business that will allow me to grow that? That will be key to my success if I pick the right tool for it. I'm sorry, I just wanted to clarify that point.
Rachel Pether: (14:58)
No, I think that's a great clarification point, using technology more as an enabler rather than a set class, as it were, in an of itself.
Rachel Pether: (15:09)
We've already had, actually, a couple of audience questions come in that are related to specifically the family business side of things. So, I'll address them now. We've had a question from Kim, thank you as always, Kim who said: "Mishal is so impressive, and his family's accomplishments. Please ask what he and his family are doing to prepare the next generation to take forth the business." And maybe this comes back to the education point that you raised before as well.
Mishal Kanoo: (15:39)
Formal education is very important. There is no doubt ... and by the way, this is something that we've always done, at least as far as I can remember ... you have to get a formal education, because that's the basis for where you start the other education. But once you've had the formal education, then the other education, which is the on the ground, hands on education ... I'll give you an example of something I experienced.
Mishal Kanoo: (16:01)
When I got my bachelor's degree, I was really happy. You know, I have my degree. Right. Now, I want to have a position in the company. I want to run things and do things, and fix things. My father looked at me like "What are you talking about? Yes, you have formal education, but you don't know anything about the businesses were in. So, do a round of the businesses." So, I did a round of the businesses. Then I thought, "Oh, you know what? Now, I have a better grasp of the businesses, I know everything, and I can take on the world." My father said, "You know what? No. You're going to experience what everyone else experiences from the bottom up." And while it's annoying, and it was painful, it did give me insights that otherwise I wouldn't have.
Mishal Kanoo: (16:47)
So, yes, it's important to get the formal education. Yes, it's important to get the training, what it's calling, investment banking training, which a lot of investment banking will go to family business ... banks will go to family businesses and say, "Give us your children to help train them in the investment aspect of it." But, it's only when you're on the ground, when you feel that you don't have a say in things, and you can start seeing things without having to worry about things so much, because you are so low in the food chain, that you can get to have better picture.
Mishal Kanoo: (17:24)
One of the things we do do in our family, is we send our ... as soon as someone graduates and has gone through a small series of understanding our current businesses, we try to send the outside to other businesses to go and work outside. The idea is you go work outside, you don't have your family nearby to carry you and to push you forward. You get to see what other people, how they interact. You get a better understanding of human nature. And then, when you come back in, you are a bit more of a rounded person. And then you add your experience. There is nothing better for a person to have than his or her own experience in a business because that adds a dimension that books cannot explain to you, other people who've experienced it cannot explain it to you, because it's something you've touched, you've felt, you've experienced. And then, you can have a better picture.
Mishal Kanoo: (18:27)
Now, hopefully, the member of the family who comes in, doesn't come in with an idea that once they've gone through all those steps, that "Okay, now I know everything." Because we're constantly in flux and change, and we have to understand how things work.
Mishal Kanoo: (18:50)
Another anecdote: At my office, I had a huge painting, and it says the word in Arabic, [foreign language 00:18:58]. [foreign language 00:18:58] is not [foreign languane 00:19:01]. In Arabic, [foreign language 00:19:02] means "no." [foreign language 00:19:04] is a definitive "no." It means, "Forget it, it's never going to happen."
Mishal Kanoo: (19:07)
And everyone used to ask me, "Why do you have the painting behind you? Why do you have that painting in your office?"
Mishal Kanoo: (19:13)
And I said, "Because this is the first thing my family tells me every time I have an idea: 'No.'"
Mishal Kanoo: (19:19)
And one day, I am frustrated ... I've been in the company for a while, and I got frustrated ... and I went to my uncle, my Uncle [Abdullah 00:19:24], who was the chairman at the time, and I asked him, "Why do you say, 'No.'? Why is it every time I have an idea, you say, 'No.'?"
Mishal Kanoo: (19:32)
He said, "Because I want you to go and find every plausible answer for every plausible refusal I'm going to give you, so when I say, "no" you can give me the answer, and finally I'll be convinced and we can move forward."
Mishal Kanoo: (19:45)
And I said, "You know what, I didn't think of that."
Mishal Kanoo: (19:48)
It's all, again, coming through these experiences. Now, hopefully, I think myself and my cousins don't do that to our younger cousins, our younger siblings. The idea is to try to help them, embold them to take risk, to don't worry. If you make a mistake, you learn from your mistake. The key is to learn from your mistake. And, get a formal education. This is key. Get a working education and experience. Learn. Read. Come back. Go outside, learn from others. Come back. And then try, and take risks. And if you fail, we are there as your ... we are like a coach, we're there to hold your hand ... you have a problem, go and try to find the solution yourself. You can't find it, come back to us, and we'll try to help you. Our job is always to find ways to help people move forward.
Mishal Kanoo: (20:51)
The next one, and this is key, a lot of families need to understand this, is I need to prepare the next generation for succession. I cannot take their time. I have a certain amount of time where I will work, and then I need to find myself slowly taking a back step, and allowing other members to come in, and for me to sit back and end up being like a consultant. They take up the decision making, they take up the reigns of the company, and I'm there to consult if you have a problem, if you've never experienced this, if you have a political tangling that needs untangled. That's what my job should be.
Rachel Pether: (21:39)
You mentioned the power of the word "no" in sort of forcing you to look at other possibilities and options, but one thing that I do find ... and this is perhaps a cultural thing or a society at large's ... there are a lot of yes-men out there. Right? So, there's a lot of people that will just say "yes" even if they don't think that it's a good approach. I know you sit on a lot of boards. What do you think about the notion that you just surround yourself with yes-men, and it makes your path a bit easier, and how do you go about changing that culturally and creating an environment where people do actually speak up and say "no"?
Speaker 3: (22:22)
If you want a company to fail with you, surround yourself with yes-men, because the moment you die, the company collapses. It's simple as that. I don't need, no company needs chaos from within, as in people fighting all the time. But, you need people to push back. If you have an idea ... okay, I hire professional people, so if I don't listen to the professional advice, why do I hire? I can do this all by myself. You don't need them. I need people to come back and say, "You know what, don't give me an opinion." I have as many people, who ... and every person has an opinion. I don't need opinions. I need you to defend what you say with something that is on the ground. You have better knowledge in finance? Explain to me why this investment is not good. You better experience in operation? Explain to me why we shouldn't be doing this logistic. You better knowledge in human resources? Explain to me why I shouldn't hire this person.
Speaker 3: (23:20)
This is what is the responsibility of any leader. There is this misunderstanding that leaders are the person on top of the hill, leading the charge, and everyone is a minion following behind them. I assure you, the moment that that person is killed, the minions will run away. Now, that's one alternative.
Speaker 3: (23:47)
The more sustainable business leadership style, should be, I bring in people who can help grow the company, so whether I am there or somebody else comes in, it shouldn't have an effect necessarily on the business itself. And the best example I can give you ... this is a story I learned when I was in university, and it stuck in my head. And forgive me for just a couple of minutes, just to understand the type of leadership you should have.
Speaker 3: (24:19)
The story goes, there was this young boy in China walking with his father, and they saw a gathering of men, one man who was sitting down, and a lot of men surrounding him. And the young boy asks the father, "Who's that?"
Speaker 3: (24:36)
And the father says, "That's the Emperor of China."
Speaker 3: (24:39)
So the boy goes, "Oh, he must be the bravest man in China."
Speaker 3: (24:43)
So the father goes, "No, no, it's that man over there."
Speaker 3: (24:45)
"Oh, in that case he must be the smartest man in China."
Speaker 3: (24:47)
Says, "No, that's that man over there."
Speaker 3: (24:49)
"Ah, he must be the wisest." And imagine all the adjectives where you call it the bravest, the smartest, the most philosophical, the best swordsman, the best...
Speaker 3: (24:58)
"No, no, no, no. It's that man. It's that man. It's that man."
Speaker 3: (25:01)
So the son was looking at the father, and he does, "Well, if he's not any of these attributes, why is he the Emperor of China?"
Speaker 3: (25:08)
And the father says, "Because he's the hub that allows all these spokes to function."
Speaker 3: (25:12)
And this is the key of leadership. You don't need to be the best, but you need to surround yourself with the best, and you need to allow them enough space to be able to push this company forward, because remember it's in their interest as much as yours, if you're the leader, it's in their interest as much as yours to move this thing forward, whatever the company is. They need to be part and parcel of it. If they feel at any point it's not theirs, they're not important to it, well very soon they will either go away or utilize you as a base for their own benefit.
Rachel Pether: (25:49)
Yeah, I really like that hub and spoke analogy. I think that was very applicable. And we spoke, I think it was last month, about gender balanced boards, and I want to talk about this specifically in relation to speaking one's mind as well, and creating an environment where people can say "yes." Where are the weaknesses in regional family businesses, and maybe even society at large in creating a sort of environment where females feel in a safe place where they can be assertive, rather than being called something else?
Mishal Kanoo: (26:26)
I will say fortunately in family business as a whole, better than say non-family businesses, unless we're talking multi-national companies, but in family businesses as a whole I think there's ... depending also on the age, of the makeup of the family business to start ... there's a lot more females coming in and playing an active role in the businesses. And, hopefully smart families are not using them as a rubber stamp to say, "Look, we have females in our company."
Mishal Kanoo: (27:03)
Women are a smart as men. There's no reason to think we can [inaudible 00:27:09] otherwise. They have a different perspective in terms of how things are done. There are certain traits that females bring that males don't bring. Now, by the way, I'm talking about traits, I'm not talking about the gender. But, some of the female traits that are brought in ... and the more there are the better for a company ... consensus building, care for people around you, making sure that there I a buy in. These are very female-oriented traits. Male-oriented traits are decision-making, quick decision-making ... how should I put it? Attacking the hill kind of mentality, you know? I'm going to gather people and attack the hill. That's a very male trait.
Mishal Kanoo: (27:54)
I don't necessarily want to see a female on a board that just thinks like a ... have all these female traits. And I don't want to see just male having male traits. I want to see that after a while both males and females on the board, there's a cross filter between the female traits and the male traits so that both of them can start understand each other. Because the more you have a better understanding ... because there are times when you need to make quick decisions, and there are time when you need to be consensus building. And having those traits, whether it's male or female, between both genders on a board is always going to be something beneficial for any board. Lip-service is never going to achieve anything.
Mishal Kanoo: (28:41)
Having also ... By the way, in terms of family businesses, just to bring this to the issue of family businesses, you will find the most successful family businesses are not the ones that are run on board level. It's the one with a very strong matriarchical person who ensures in the background that there is consensus building, that there is some sort of comradery between everyone. And she is looked upon as the person that they all fall back to, because, yes, I need to make quick decisions in a business perhaps, but I also need to have harmony within a family. And she can help in that aspect in a way much better than a male can. Males, unfortunately, will focus on the fear factor, the dictatorship mentality, but the females ... that's the patriarch ... but the matriarch is much more of a consensus building in making sure that no one's left out, everyone gets a piece of the pie. Not everyone necessarily gets equal pieces of the pie, but at least they get a piece of the pie, and there's buy in.
Mishal Kanoo: (29:55)
And this is important, and it's not seen, certain superficially, it's not seen. And it doesn't have to be seen. But, if there is no matriarchical counterbalance to the patriarch, you have issues going to happen.
Rachel Pether: (30:13)
Yeah, I couldn't agree more on that. It's a great point you made about the box-ticking. I mean, I don't think putting someone in the position just to tick a diversity box is going to be beneficial to anyone. Is there anything that you can do, and maybe a politically correct answer, that we could do, to address the sort of fake advocates of diversity? So, those people that are just doing it to pay lip service. Is there a way around that?
Mishal Kanoo: (30:42)
Well, I'm hoping the Darwin awards mentality kicks in, i.e. those who don't utilize soething to the betterment and sustainability of their organization, eventually kill themselves off. You can't change their mindset. If someone has a mindset that he or she thinks ... I'm sorry, in this case, he ... thinks that he's right and he knows everything, and he's going to do everything the way he wants, eventually he's going to kill his company. And, so much the better. Sad for the people employed by him, but so much the better, because when that company dies another company comes up in its place, and hopefully is smart and intelligent to say, "Oh, let's see it from the mistake that that company did, and let's change that."
Mishal Kanoo: (31:28)
And, again, bringing people on board ... to my knowledge men did not inherit the genius gene. It's available to both genders. Men did not inherit the knowledge gene. It's available to both genders. Perspective, a man's perspective and a female perspective, are different. An intelligent person, would say, "You know what? I need to have, since women make up at least if not more than half the population, if I'm selling something to them, I need to make sure I understand what they like. And so, I need to bring them on board, and make sure that they also tell me what I like."
Mishal Kanoo: (32:15)
If you're going to invest in FMCG, sorry, in retail, in clothes, the best thing you could do ... and I heard this from the founder of, I believe it was Vanguard Fund. He's a famous gentleman. I can't remember his name, but I remember what he said. He took his advice from his teenage girls telling him these are the companies they like, these are the companies her and her friends buy from, and they knew something [inaudible 00:32:49]. "You know what, if I asked my boys, they would never know this. If I never asked my girls, I'd never know this." So, he was intelligent enough to say, "You know what, I'm going to try to find from every resource, including my wife, my children, my girls, my boys, my friends. I'm going to try every resource I can to help me in their own way direct me to my benefit."
Mishal Kanoo: (33:16)
Now, as I said, if I don't have the female perspective, whether it's on the board, whether it's in the employment in the company, whether it's within my family, if I don't have that perspective, I've lost half the market. Why would I do that? Whey would an intelligent person do that? The first thing I would be doing is trying to find from everyone what everyone wants, and then seen whether I can afford to bring them the product and/or service, or not. That's what intelligent people do. Not intelligent people, as I said, hopefully will go down the Darwin awards way where they kill themselves off, as they die.
Rachel Pether: (33:55)
That was more politically correct than I thought you would give, so thank you for that. We've had a few people come in and say, "Yes, that was John Bogle from Vanguard [crosstalk 00:34:04] that made that comment."
Rachel Pether: (34:07)
We've had more, so many audience questions coming in. Someone has asked, "What do you suggest for children who are rebels and not willing to flow with the family?" And I guess that means from a cultural perspective. .
Mishal Kanoo: (34:22)
I know the feeling, because I'm one of them. There are different types of rebels, those who rebel against authority and those who are rebelling against a person, not necessarily the authority but the person wielding an authority against them. So, if that person that's wielding the authority against them goes away, rebellious nature goes away. It's just natural. And there are those who rebel again an idea. You can't do anything about that.
Mishal Kanoo: (34:55)
One way to harness this, if you do have a quote-unquote black sheep ... I know it's not political correct, I can't use these words these days ... or a rebellious person, maybe it's time for that person to discover for him or herself what he or she can do. So, I would say, "Here's a chunk of money," whatever amount of money it is ... "Here's a chunk of money. Go away." Now, "Go away and discover for yourself, and then you'll understand what you're missing." Or, "Here's a chunk of money, but you need to also put a chunk of money in there so that you have skin in the game, so it hurts you, and let's see how well you do. And if you do really, really well, put in a clause that says the parent company can come and buy the company that you've built if you both agree to it."
Mishal Kanoo: (35:47)
This way, there's an incentive. If I don't like the way you're running things, and I think I can do better, here's a bunch of money, you add a bunch of money to it. "Go run the business. Go run the business that you think you can run. You will either fly, because your idea is fantastic and great, or you'll be mediocre, and then you might want to think about going back or not. Or, you will fail, and then you can come groveling back to the family." The three options are there, but I think sometimes ...
Mishal Kanoo: (36:20)
Again, depending on the age, because if you have someone who's rebelling at 40, there's a systematic issue that you need to address. If you have someone rebelling at 20, it's usually a personality issue. You can control that one. You can try to help them along the way. When you have someone rebelling at 40 or even 50 ... you can have that ... again, it might be a systematic thing that you need to address. Why is this person rebelling? Sometimes it's not they are rebel just for the sake of rebelling. There is something that they're telling you, but you're not listening.
Mishal Kanoo: (36:58)
Now, it always takes two to tango. Forgive me on the cliché, but it's two parties. One is trying to tell you there's an issue, and the other party is saying there is no issue. Now, if you don't want to listen to the other one, ideally, pay them off and let them go away. If you keep them inside, it's like having an angry tiger in your house. Do you really want to have an angry tiger? But, that's what you're asking for.
Rachel Pether: (37:32)
Yeah, and this may be a Mike Tyson or someone, but, no I really like that point about [crosstalk 00:37:44].
Mishal Kanoo: (37:44)
[crosstalk 00:37:44] tiger, how about that?
Rachel Pether: (37:47)
In any situation, I guess no one party is every solely guilty.
Rachel Pether: (37:52)
We've had a number of audience questions coming in as well interested about your approach, and you mentioned sort of supporting the family at a micro level. Do you also look at, with your businesses, really supporting the regional ecosystem? So, is it important for you to invest in regional start-ups and companies, and how do you see your role within the Middle East?
Mishal Kanoo: (38:18)
I will talk from my personal point of view rather than my family, because it's easier for me to do that. From my personal perspective, there are two roles. When I invest, there are two things that are in my head.
Mishal Kanoo: (38:31)
Obviously, the first one, which is what everyone is in, but no one wants to say, is I'm in there for the money. I say that to get that out of the way. Because, if I don't make money, then I can't continue doing the things I want to do. It's not ... will my lifestyle change? Not really. But, I want to take that money, so that I can do the things that I really actually want to do.
Mishal Kanoo: (38:53)
This is where it comes to the second point. I'm 51 years old. I'm not going to create rocket science, what you call, but there are people in the region in their 20s and 30s, perhaps even in their 40s, who have the breadth to want to do that. And sometimes, there's no one who believes in them. That's when you have to sit there and ... okay, I don't necessarily have to invest financially, but I can invest with my ear. I can invest with my experience. I can invest with talking to them, and giving them an opportunity. "You know what? If you do something along those lines, I'm interested at the next stage. So, I'm giving you hope. Get to that next stage. I will come in. But get to that next stage. If you need help in terms of 'How do I address this problem', maybe you need somebody who can help you because they've experienced that. And that's what I'm here for."
Mishal Kanoo: (39:46)
My job is to try to help the young generation. And, in respect for me, nationality becomes secondary. The key for me is to help young men and young women who want to do something, who don't want to be lazy, who don't want to rely on others, who want to create soething, who want to add something to this world, and sometimes might not have the opportunity. My job is to help them get there. And, as I said, different stages takes ... sometimes it's just a pat on the back. Sometimes it's just recognition. Sometimes it's experience and knowledge. It's sometimes opening the door. Sometimes it's finance. But my job, and this is for me key, I want to make sure as much as I can, and I am limited to what I can do, but as much as I can to help those people to get to a point where they can pick up themselves.
Mishal Kanoo: (40:39)
The more we have those success stories, at least ... and I'm talking in this region, irrespective of nationality ... but the more we have in this region, the more all the rest of the world will start saying, "You know what? Something's happening here." And it is. We have young, intelligent, bright, smart, articulate, go-getters, risk-takers. They're in Egypt. They're in North Africa. They are in the Levant. They're in Iraq. They're in the Gulf. Sometimes they feel, "I don't have the ability." Sorry, "I don't have the support" not the 'ability.' "I don't have the support around me." And my job, and I hope others will also do the same thing, in saying, "You know what? No, no, I am here to help you. I'm here to help you promote and do whatever you want to do." Because we want this region to be a bastion of opportunities for others.
Mishal Kanoo: (41:37)
And I'm taking my lesson, and I'm not saying this because somebody is putting a gun to my head. I'm saying this because I actually believe this. I'm taking a page from the lesson that Dubai created, and it's very specifically Dubai, because Dubai said, "I'm going to open up the door. I'm going to open up the landscape, and I'm going to give you the opportunity, as long as you don't cause mischief in a place, to grow your businesses." How many businesses in the Arab world have grown starting from here because the door has been opened? And I would love to see this happen in Saudi Arabia. I would love to see this happen in Bahrain, in [inaudible 00:42:23], in Kuwait, in [inaudible 00:42:25], in Yemen, in Iraq, in Syria, in Lebanon, in Jordan, in Palestine, in Morocco, Algeria, Tunis, Sudan, Egypt, [inaudible 00:42:40] Somalia ... I'm trying to think of the ones in the Arab world. Did I miss anyone? Djibouti. I think Djibouti was the last one.
Rachel Pether: (42:50)
We're going to get who are writing in from a country that you've left of the list, and they're going to be very irate. But, now, I think that's great, and you're obviously doing so much to support the ecosystem, and the family, and businesses in the region.
Rachel Pether: (43:05)
We do just have time for one more question. So, I'd be very interested ... you put so much effort into helping others achieve their goals, and acting as a source of inspiration. Who or what inspire you?
Mishal Kanoo: (43:22)
The answer for me is very simple, but I'm a bit cautious in what I'm about to say, because I don't want it to sound I'm propagating religion. But, for me the reality is, for me the book that matters to me the most is the Qur'an, and the personality that matters to me the most is the prophet [foreign language 00:43:45] Muhammad.
Mishal Kanoo: (43:46)
And the reason I say that is because the gist of the Qur'an ... put the religious aspect aside ... the gist of it is to be fair and to be caring. And this is what any business has to be to its employees, to its customers, to itself, to be fair, just, and to be caring. Because there are sometimes when you need to bend the rules to help someone who is in need of it. So, this is the principles that are in there, are the principles that drive me. And justice and fairness are huge principles that drive me.
Mishal Kanoo: (44:26)
And the life of the prophet [foreign language 00:44:28] in terms of how he interacted with the different peoples at different times ... whether they were unfair with him, whether they were nasty with him, whether they were good with him ... in terms of how he interacted with them to the idea of whether it was in trade, whether it was in politics, whether it was in social structures, social change that he was bringing, all of thee things matter. And, this is a driver for me. This is what makes me say, "You know what? I want to do as much as I can to live up to the principles in the Qur'an. I want to be fair with people. I want people to be fair with me. I want to give people an opportunity. I want to give them a message. I want to be caring for them."
Mishal Kanoo: (45:11)
I can't do everything. I'm but a human. But, key is to try to do as much as I can to help others, again irrespective of religion, irrespective of nationality, irrespective of political affiliation. At the end of the day, everyone is free to choose what he or she wants. The only thing you can't choose, is I can't choose who my parents were and what the color of my skin is. I can't do that. But, everything else, I can choose. And, as long as they're not harming others, as long as they benefit others, and as long as they're caring of others, there's no reason why I would not want to take those principles that I've learned from the Qur'an and help apply it into my life and help others benefit from it.
Mishal Kanoo: (45:58)
It's key, and it's the most significant driver for me, is to help others. There are people, and God bless them, but there are people who want to obtain money for the sake of money. If they want make their bankers happy, good for them. For me, the key is to take this money and utilize it for the benefit of humanity. And if I can't do that, then making money is useless.
Rachel Pether: (46:31)
Mishal, yes, life is about choices, and I really appreciate you choosing the spend the time to talk to us today and share your views. It has been a pleasure, as always, so thank you.
Mishal Kanoo: (46:43)
[crosstalk 00:46:43] [inaudible 00:46:43]