“Your version of happiness can’t have a template. Feeling fulfilled in life is something you’ll have to figure out on your own. Trying to have more money than your peer group doesn’t appeal to the newer generation as it did to previous ones.”
Nikhil Kamath, along with his brother, co-founded Zerodha, India’s largest brokerage exchange with over three million users. Kamath and his brother also founded the asset management firm True Beacon in an attempt to disrupt the traditional asset management space.
Around 2009, India’s brokers would charge as much as half a percent of volume as a broker’s fee. With the belief that such fees made profitability too difficult, Zerodha was created simply to remove those barriers and from this users have flocked organically. Opportunities for disruption in finance will continue to grow into areas like traditional banking. “I think there’s a big opportunity to disrupt banking. I think banking will become more fragmented and have tinier banks who do a better job serving clients in those niches.”
Zerodha provides similar levels of access to financial markets in India as Robin Hood in America where the GameStop-Reddit saga made headlines. Among the lessons learned are that retail traders should seek to organize around stocks with good fundamentals instead of those headed towards bankruptcy and that regulators should limit leveraged trading. “I think we should be careful about how much leverage is provided. When you allow someone with $1 to short $50 worth of GameStop, that’s when things get unnatural.”
LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE
SPEAKER
Nikhil Kamath
Co-Founder & Chief Investment Officer
True Beacon & Zerodha
MODERATOR
Anthony Scaramucci
Founder & Managing Partner
SkyBridge
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
John Darcie: (00:07)
Hello. Hello everyone. And welcome back to salt talks. My name is John Darcie. I'm the managing director of salt, which is a global thought leadership forum and networking platform at the intersection of finance technology and public policy. Salt talks are a digital interview series with leading investors, creators, and thinkers. And our goal on these salt talks is the same as our goal at our salt conferences, which is to provide a window into the mind of subject matter experts, as well as provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future. And we're very excited today to welcome. Nickeel come off to salt talks and keel is the co-founder and chief investment officer of both zero dot, which is the largest broker brokerage exchange in India. It's been called the Robin hood of India as well as true beacon and asset management firm, uh, that Nickeel and his brother started, uh, that, that they saw an opportunity to disrupt the traditional asset management space in India and around the world.
John Darcie: (01:06)
And I know their performance has been fantastic since they started true beacon as well, but Nickeel also has a non-traditional background into, into the business world. Uh, he started trading equities at the age of 17 after giving up a career as a professional chess player. He was a chess prodigy dropped out of school at a young age, but started trading stocks and fell in love with financial markets. Uh, he largely focused when he was a trader on emerging derivatives and commodity sectors before co-founding Komatsu associates at the age of 19 to manage the net worth of high net worth individuals in portfolios and public markets. And in 2010, as I mentioned at the age of 23, he co-founded zero die with his brother Nitten, uh, the company aimed to revolutionize Indian financial market access by adopting a transparent ultra low fee and proprietary tech driven strategy.
John Darcie: (01:58)
It's also self-funded, uh, by the [inaudible] brothers. So it's taken no venture capital funding. It has over 3 million users and is the country's largest retail brokerage platform. It facilitates orders were 10 billion us dollars per day, which accounts for about 15% of the daily equity volume in India. The company is headquartered in Asia, is it hub Bangalore? And as I mentioned, it's funded entirely by Nikila Niton. It has a valuation of over 2 billion us dollars. Uh, the Klamath brothers also incubate, uh, FinTech companies through their VC fund rain matter, aggressively investing in a variety of different FinTech companies, driving innovation, aimed at bringing financial inclusion across India, which is something, uh, that is a very welcome development hosting. Today's talk is Anthony Scaramucci, the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge capital, a global alternative investment firm. SkyBridge traditionally is in the hedge fund industry as a fund of funds. But in recent years, we've continued to diversify our business have made several investments, the FinTech sector. So looking forward to a great conversation today about FinTech, about trading, about financial markets. And with that, I'll turn it over to Anthony for the interview.
Anthony Scaramucci: (03:09)
Well, first of all, congratulations on your amazing career. Uh, and so we're, we're, we're super thrilled to have you, but I want to go back, uh, because you're 17, you're trading, um, you're being inspired somewhere to start so early. Um, and so tell us about that. Where, where did you get your vision from your inspiration and when did you decide that this is what you were going to do with your life?
Nikhil Kamath: (03:38)
So, Anthony there never
Nikhil Kamath: (03:39)
Really has been a plan. Uh, I think, uh, everything that has happened up until now has been fairly organic. Uh, the decision to go into trading happened by virtue of having people in my vicinity might be a group. Some people I knew who were trading back in the day, uh, I attempted many different things at that point in life, but, uh, trading is the one thing that kind of stuck on, I think it worked well for me. And also I had some kind of a natural liking towards trading. Uh, the one great thing about reading a career in trading or investing when you're going solo and not working for a larger enterprise is there's no starting, uh, you know, minimum qualification one requires or, uh, you don't need to pass a certain exam to be able to do it. You can, you know, bring in a little bit of capital and you can begin trading on your own. So that played a huge part in, uh, the entire trading career.
Anthony Scaramucci: (04:40)
You you're, you're the founder of India's largest retail brokerage company, zero doubt. So tell us about the origination of that company, uh, and why you've got competitors. Uh, what was your edge, uh, in terms of your execution and your vision for the company?
Nikhil Kamath: (04:58)
So when
Nikhil Kamath: (04:59)
We started 11 years ago, uh, the marketplace then was very expensive. Uh, brokers would charge as much as half a percent on volume as a broking fee. Uh, back when we were full-time traders, uh, we, we always thought that it would be impossible to remain efficient and profitable as a trader being these kinds of fees. So the intention of starting a broking firm was to kind of like Reid ourself out of paying those fees. Uh, but once we started to, we got a broking platform and we started using it and kind of start developing it the very early stages. People really liked it and they came on board. So we have been in the very lucky, a situation where we started in 2009, right after the financial crisis. So not much money was going into innovating the FinTech industry, especially in India, but we also have organically grown without having to, you know, go out there and market or do ads and stuff like that.
Anthony Scaramucci: (06:05)
You, you, you you've said, I mean, I referred you to say this, that, uh, there are people that have inspired you. So tell us about those people. Tell us who your mentors are, tell us who you lean on. Who's your personal board of directors?
Nikhil Kamath: (06:22)
Well, mentors,
Nikhil Kamath: (06:25)
Mentorship is not something I truly believe in, especially, I think you start off in life having a mentor, and then when you meet them physically and you spend a little bit of time and with them, everybody has flaws. So the whole mentor, mentee relationship, I don't think works, but, uh, as my personal board of directors, you know, it would be my brother, some of my colleagues who, who have been working with us for a long time now I would consider them the personal board.
Anthony Scaramucci: (06:55)
You know, it's interesting, you know, uh, uh, Churchill said that once he said that there are no heroes to a man's valet. And at the end of the day that, uh, no matter who we're talking about, they've got issues, strengths, and weaknesses, et cetera. And I, and I totally agree with that. Tell us about the asset management company called true beacon. Um, why did you take that step and tell us what true beacon is? Yeah. So
Nikhil Kamath: (07:19)
Even today, I mean, if you were to look at different geographies, not just in India, but even in America, for example, uh, when a ultra HNI individual, uh, typically wants to allocate money to a third party fund, he goes to his wealth manager or private bank who acts as a middleman in introducing the fund and they charge you a percent or two in between to set up the fund for you. Then the fund manager charges you 2% a year. If the client makes money, does not make money. There is a recurring fee of 2%, which is essentially paid in perpetuity. Uh, and there are many inefficiencies like, you know, these are not open-ended, there are locking periods. You can't take out your money for three years and such. So the intention is starting to beacon was, you know, uh, when I wanted to allocate my personal money a few years ago, these are the issues I dealt with.
Nikhil Kamath: (08:15)
And I was like, if there is not a great product for something like this, why not try and attempt to create it on our own. So we are trying to read the ecosystem of all of the inefficiencies that I just mentioned. A true beacon will not have any middle men, not have any distributors, uh, no setup fees, no exit loads, no, lock-in completely open-ended. We don't have the typical annual management fee that other fund houses do. Uh, instead we've kind of like got a performance fee of 10%, which makes us totally client aligned. Uh, it's a way of putting the fund managers neck on line. So if we don't make money for the clients, for any reason, for three years or four years, we have zero revenue as a company. So we are trying to approach asset management in, in a slightly different manner, uh, wherein you know, we only build based on the performance we bring in and we have kind of waved off everything else.
Anthony Scaramucci: (09:15)
Yeah. It's fascinating. And you, and you got your start basically at 14. I mean, you dropped out of school at 14, you became a chess champion. Um, tell us about the future. Um, I have adult children, uh, two of which went to college, one went to business school, one, uh, one has dropped out of college, uh, and he's pursuing a career in the music industry and, you know, he's doing quite well without his college degree, as he points out to me all the time. Uh, I'm an old fashioned fuddy-duddy. I went to college, I went to law school, uh, but the future is really different Maciel and the things have changed. So tell older people your observation of that and where is the future as it relates to secondary education? Yeah,
Nikhil Kamath: (10:04)
I think education, the formal structured education, I think, has to change to keep, keep, uh, keep pace with the, how the times are changing. But one significant change that I think will happen is people will no longer have one career in which they spent 40 years. I think the newer generation is a lot less patient than the previous ones were. So I would picture, you know, having people having three or four careers in their life span, you know, somebody does a certain kind of job for 10 years. It takes a year off and then does completely, uh, something which is very different for the next 10 and so on and so forth. So I think the gig economy is going to play a bigger part. Then we have witnessed up until now, uh, and education, I think will change in a manner that outside of what you learn in your college or your school, or whatever, whatever stream of education you choose to pursue, versus the amount of information and knowledge you're able to, you know, assimilate on your own and practical, pragmatic knowledge will probably have a greater importance than traditional structured, uh, education.
Anthony Scaramucci: (11:19)
So I shouldn't worry about my kid. Is that what you're telling me? I mean, I, you know, cause I I'm, I'm this old fashioned traditionalist NICU, well,
Nikhil Kamath: (11:27)
I wouldn't know Anthony, but, uh, I'm guessing, uh, I think we used to evolve at a pace, you know, like, uh, a 40 year old man would meet a 20 year old kid back in the day and, and realize that the 20 year old is far more evolved smarter in many ways than the 40 year old is I think that intergenerational gap, that window is narrowing. Now, if I meet somebody who is five years younger than me, instead of 20, you already see the difference. They are a bit more evolved, a bit more, uh, acknowledge or CLI uh, adapt in a way. And, uh, I think that that pace of evolution is changing significantly, such as by virtue of him being your son and so much younger than you. I think the probability that he's also a bit more evolved at quite high,
Anthony Scaramucci: (12:17)
You know, it's, it's, it's, it's interesting because I, I absolutely believe that. Of course I supported his, uh, the portrait from school and he's, he's doing something that he really loves. I, I live by the motto of Mel Brooks, the American comedian, uh, where he says, relax, none of us are getting out of here alive. And so you have to pursue your dreams and, and, and, and had that vision. And I think what you're saying is a resonating message for people of all generations, we can learn from each other. We're also coming into the earth with different, uh, families were coming into the earth with different biology. And so therefore, you know, you know, some of us are more advanced than others. I can remember a Michael Dell who helped me actually get SkyBridge started when he was 27 or 28. I said to him, I've done everything right.
Anthony Scaramucci: (13:04)
I went to law school, I went to undergrad, you dropped out, you know, and we're separated now by billions of dollars. And so I always want to encourage people to pursue their dreams and to stay on stuff like this. So you're, you're a great role model for these young kids. Um, before I switched over to game stop and things like that, what advice do you give people? Um, people call on you and they say, okay, this is what I'm thinking about, what my career, what is sort of the template that you tell people to think about philosophically? Well, I
Nikhil Kamath: (13:39)
Think there is no template. I would say that, but, uh, uh, I think we've all been too fixated by our peer groups in a way, uh, the people, the cities that we grew up in, the people that we grew up with, uh, there is this French guy, Rennie, Gerard, who talks about something called mimetic theory, uh, in isolation. We truly do not know what we want. Uh, we think we want what we want based on the people around us, by, you know, kind of mimicking what their perceived goals are. So I would say, you know, like take the time to figure out what you actually want. Uh, having more money might need a certain pedigree of people happy or having more, uh, academy success might make a certain kind of people happy, but your version of happiness, I don't think can have a template or your version of feeling fulfilled in life.
Nikhil Kamath: (14:35)
You will have to figure it out on your own, uh, as time passes. I think I'm coming to realize that the whole monetary aspect of, uh, trying to have more wealth than your peer group, uh, it doesn't appeal to the newer as a date to, you know, maybe my generation or yours when you meet a 15 or a 20 year old kid today, especially in the affluent community. I don't think their trip in life is to have more than their friends in terms of financial value. A lot of them are evolving. Do you know, uh, in a way, or be a bit more righteous and kinda like do things which are not just good for them, but for the ecology and the community as well, which is actually a very, you know, interesting and inspiring. And I hope the world evolves in that direction.
Anthony Scaramucci: (15:26)
We'll say they, I think it's a beautiful statement. It's the reason why I wanted to ask you about this because you know, we're finding now that we are, and again, we have social issues related to this, cause we're not spreading the wealth as much as we need to. And of course, I want to do that through market forces, not through the imposition of the government, but as we get more abundance in the world, we find that our base needs are fulfilled. And so therefore, what are we actualizing as human beings? And so with that, what is the next step for you as you see your career unfolding?
Nikhil Kamath: (16:03)
I think more of the
Nikhil Kamath: (16:03)
Same, uh, the one thing I realized Anthony is each time I attempt something, which is not my core competency, uh, I'm guessing my core competency is, you know, stock markets and FinTech. Uh, every time I've invested outside of that, I've tried to be adventurous and do new things. They've never really worked out for me. So I think I'm going to stick to my niche and kind of like try to build more product and more companies, but in my core sector and, uh, we've started asset management. Now we might attempt insurance banking, but everything in, in the sector where we already have a captive audience.
Anthony Scaramucci: (16:45)
Yeah. I think it's good advice. I mean, of course I had my foray in politics and tequila and yeah, that didn't, that, wasn't my sweet spot. You can see John Darcie laughing. I'm going to cut his night later. Okay. Cause I see him giggling to himself over there, uh, before I turn it over. What's that if you remember Anthony,
Nikhil Kamath: (17:03)
We spoke about this. Uh, we met at Davos in a pre pandemic world last year, and I remember you talking about politics and I think Trump was meant to be speaking there and stuff like that.
Anthony Scaramucci: (17:17)
I know, I totally remember we were at the wine bar. Um, it was interesting that, uh, you know, we, we had of course Trump and I had had a falling out. Uh, I tried to be supportive of him. Um, but, uh, I don't know if you remember, but standing where this was Mark Burnett, uh, the producer of the, uh, of the show, the apprentice. And so mark wanted me to smoke a peace pipe with, uh, president Trump, but, uh, you know, uh, obviously that didn't come to pass, but in any event. Yeah, no, I, I absolutely remember the conversation vividly. Um, I turn it over to John Dorsey, who is our resident millennial that has all of the fancy pants, millennial questions. I'm more of the boomer old fashioned questioner. Uh, but before I turn it over to him, you're an avid reader. Uh, that's something I, uh, uh, pride myself in. I try to read everything. And so what types of books do you like what's on your nightstand right now? Uh, what do you, what do you, what are you, what are you reading these days? Yeah, so
Nikhil Kamath: (18:18)
I, I try to keep it fairly eclectic. I had a big history phase where I was very interested in, you know, uh, Greek history, uh, maybe the nasi history, many different bouts of history, uh, that was followed up by psychology. I think that interests me today more than other things, because at the end of the day,
Anthony Scaramucci: (18:40)
Have a psychology book. Nickeel that you've read recently.
Nikhil Kamath: (18:43)
Uh, what I was
Nikhil Kamath: (18:45)
Talking about earlier, it's in-between philosophy and psychology, but, uh, the memetic theories of rainy Gerard, I think are a good program. Uh, I think, uh, Freud is a little bit out there, but a euphemized version would probably be young, which is more apt for readers today. Uh, Adler is good, uh, in many, many great books in psychology, but if I have to talk about one book I like right now, I think it's Rennies.
Anthony Scaramucci: (19:16)
Yep. Okay. Good. All right. Well, I'm going to, I'm going to turn it over to John, but before I do that, talk to me about GameStop and the emblematic nature of game stop. Is there a revolution going on right now? Is this a blip on the screen or are we going to see a revolution because of people like you? Um, you're basically providing technology to people that I saw back in 1995 on the Goldman Sachs prop desk, uh, where you're getting instant information and instant feed, relatively costless or almost costless trading. Uh, those are things that, uh, gave the Goldman Sachs prop trader twenty-five years ago, a significant advantage your evening, the playing field for people. So is this a game changer or a blip in the system?
Nikhil Kamath: (20:03)
Well, I, I think the
Nikhil Kamath: (20:04)
It's a pity that, you know, these guys who are the ready traders pick something like GameStop stop, uh, which inherently does not have sound fundamentals. Uh, it was a company walking towards bankruptcy before they started meddling with it. Anyway, on the other hand, if they were to pick a company which a hedge fund had shorted and beat down, which had decent fundamentals and had had scope and potential to grow, I think the equation would be totally different, uh, in this entire game stop saw. I think those Reddit traders, they're the ones who actually ended up losing a lot of money. Uh, so I would say blip, I don't think this will continue, but, uh, information about hedge funds being shot, whatever company is publicly available and has been. So for a long time, uh, great if people won't, you know, champion the cause of the company and support the small guy and get together and all of that, but they should pick companies with some kind of fundamentals versus picking companies, which are on the verge of bankruptcy and moving the price only based on, you know, the fact that they can come together with a certain amount of capital.
Nikhil Kamath: (21:16)
I don't think that works John Dorsey.
John Darcie: (21:22)
All right. Well, uh, it's a pleasure to have you on Nickeel. Um, I want to talk about India for a second. So you guys are based in Bangalore. Uh, we recently had Rahul Padgett potty on, on assault talk, talking about, uh, things that are going on in the digital asset space. So, you
Anthony Scaramucci: (21:37)
Know, he's been practicing, pronouncing that name for about six months. Okay. I just want to make sure you know that, okay. This is very good, John. That was impressed.
John Darcie: (21:44)
Thank you. Thank you, Anthony. Still can't pronounce it. Your mouth probably happened to you, but, uh, for some reason, I've, I've got them all, but to Martha
Anthony Scaramucci: (21:51)
Atmos, to like me, despite the fact that I can't pronounce his name. Okay.
John Darcie: (21:55)
That's fair. I guess that's why everybody just calls him Tomas, but India is a fascinating place to me. It's it's somewhere that's rapidly modernizing. It has an incredible base of engineering talent and entrepreneurs, uh, in your time as an investor, as an entrepreneur over the last decade or so, how has the entrepreneurial landscape evolved in India? How has the quality of investment opportunities in India evolved and what do you see as the future for India as you look out over the next decade? Yeah. So
Nikhil Kamath: (22:26)
The one thing that has changed over the last decade is, uh, a lot more attention has fallen upon, you know, Indian entrepreneurs and the startup scene here. Uh, just in terms of liquidity and the amount of money chasing quality, Indian startups. I think the number has gone up 20 fold in the last decade. I think that trend will continue. Uh, we have to remember that, you know, India is a large country, right? We have, uh, we have a lot of people when it comes to things like FinTech companies or people like us who are stock brokers. We are operating in an ecosystem where in, for example, out of the billion and a half people we have in the country only about one or 2% of our population, even today has access to financial markets. So that number will steadily continue to grow. And, you know, it will go up and at some point you'll come near the 60, 50% that you might have in America.
Nikhil Kamath: (23:26)
So each micro market like that in India, each ecosystem has significant scale and potential to grow. And I think people recognize that opportunity and there has been a lot more attention capital interest in India, uh, in the very short term though, I think it's a bit overdone think, uh, uh, how we are valuing startups in India today, just because of this, you know, the cycle where we will grow from being this small ecosystem to a much larger one over the next 10 or 20 years, I don't think even, uh, accounting for that, the valuations we see are justified. Uh, if you were to look at the 10 most valued startups in India, uh, maybe nine of them do not have any profits. Uh, and I don't think that's a fair picture and I don't think that's a good way to kind of like, uh, value them. There's no justification for that. So it'll be interesting to see how that changes and evolves.
John Darcie: (24:27)
Well, I'm sure your investors, uh, value the fact that you tell them the truth. You know, you have a lot of cheerleaders in financial markets today. It's, it's, uh, it's good to hear a sober and honest assessment of what's going on, but I want to go back to, uh, your sort of adolescents. You were, you were a chess champion. You didn't, you know, maybe weren't able to take the next step into being the greatest grand master in the world or a professional chess player, but you were an extremely talented chess player. A lot of people I know that are very successful, young entrepreneurs play chess and are very good at it. Are there things that you learn or skills or mental frameworks that you learn in chess that you think that you've been able to apply in business to help you be successful a little
Nikhil Kamath: (25:08)
Bit, maybe? Uh, so Joe and I think chess is more about memory and theory than it is about intelligence. And you know, how smart who is you become a better chess player. You know, when you have gone through middle game theory and game theory, you have kind of like read up on all the games that have been played historically, and in a way you're able to regurgitate what has happened and who did what, when during your chess game. Uh, the one parallel maybe that I could draw is chess is a bunch of rules that you have to follow. You know, you, you try and control the center, you develop your pieces, you console as quickly as you can, uh, beyond these rules, there is opportunity to be creative and differentiate yourself as a player. I think that applies in business. Uh, it might be a business run by a millennial or a baby boomer, or, you know, a generation Z or whatever. But I think there are these rules that each one of us has to follow in the business that we are attempting, and we get to be creative beyond that. And differentiate beyond that. I think that's a good parallel and maybe chess teaches you to do that a little bit better.
John Darcie: (26:22)
Right? So I think FinTech is a good application of that. So obviously the financial industry, uh, in, in different countries, there's different regulatory frameworks, but you have to fit within certain regulatory frameworks as a financial entity. Um, but at the same time, a lot of investors, especially venture capital investors like to invest in people that are the financial industry that don't necessarily come from inside the establishment. So people that can look at it with a fresh set of eyes and say, you know, maybe things are done this way and they could be done this way, but obviously it all has to fit inside of a regulatory framework. What type of FinTech companies are you most excited about that? Maybe take a fresh look at the way things have been done. Historically, there's obviously a lot taking place in the FinTech sector. We're investors in companies like Klarna, which is the largest player in the buy. Now pay later space. Uh, plaid is a, um, is another FinTech company that's enabling these pipes and rails into traditional banks through FinTech FinTech applications. Chime is another one. That's a neobank, that's basically disrupting the entire, you know, branch banking model. What different types of fintechs are you most excited about? And do you think are changing the system, you know, most actively, I think
Nikhil Kamath: (27:34)
There is a big opportunity to disrupt banking. Uh, I think the whole lending, almost everything a bank does today has not seen serious disruption in a long time. Sure. There have been met, uh, you know, like, uh, Neo banks in different pockets of the world, which have done well, but structurally banking has not changed. And that carry in between how much a bank borrows at how much they lend it. Uh, I think there's plenty of room to disrupt there. I think banking, uh, in a way will move towards becoming more fragmented than consolidating. And you will have tinier banks in different niches, which do a better job at serving the clientele in those niches versus having one large bank, which does everything. Uh, so in FinTech I've seen a lot of evolution in asset management and broking in, uh, uh, even to a large extent in insurance and products related to that. But I think banking will be the next big sector to be disrupted. Right.
John Darcie: (28:39)
And how was the pandemic not just impacted your business there at $0 or the way you invest at true beacon, but in the way you think about the world. So, you know, obviously, uh, there's a couple of different factors at play. We moved to a completely digital world, almost. We're sitting here talking on zoom rather than being at an in-person conference. Are you visiting our office here in New York, uh, in the United States and around the world, different central banks and governments threw money at the problem. So when you look at the long-term impacts of the pandemic, how has it reshaped your business and help them grow? What do you think are going to be the longterm impacts of the way our minds are sort of reshaped, uh, by the pandemic era? Yeah, so for business,
Nikhil Kamath: (29:21)
It has been good. Uh, I think, uh, people who did not have time to, you know, go out there, open a trading account and allocate some time to invest, have actually gotten the time now. So the industry has grown tremendously and we have grown with it. Uh, I think the same has happened in America as well, but a lot more investors in traders have kind of manifested out during the pandemic. Uh, personally, I, I quite hated John. I mean, I'm sick of like talking to people on a computer screen and zoom is great and everything, but, you know, beyond a point it does get, uh, I don't think it's the same as meeting someone in person. Uh, so honestly I can't wait for it to end. Uh, I'd love to begin, you know, life where I get to travel and meet people and do things together and collaborate, uh, this entire sitting in your home office and staring at a zoom screen all day. I think, um, I'm kind of like completely bored out of doing that
John Darcie: (30:25)
Well, that gives me a good segue to plug our salt conference, which we're resuming, uh, in September of 2021 in New York city, to the extent you're able to travel safely. We'd love to have you there. Uh, September 13th to the 15th in New York city, it's gonna be the first time that we've held our conference in New York city. You know, we were trying to help the city sort of bounce back from the pandemic and also make it accessible to people like you, who might be traveling in from out of town. We also most recently did our salt conference in Abu Dhabi in 2019. So we're looking forward to welcoming people from the UAE over to our salt conference in New York, but we'd love to have you there. And we're believers in the exact same thing that you can replace that interpersonal interaction, uh, when it comes to evaluating people, uh, and making connections.
John Darcie: (31:07)
And I also love that you're not talking your book again. I know the pandemic has probably been very good for your business the same way. It's been good for a lot of, uh, FinTech oriented companies. Um, but I want to talk about crypto and blockchain technology for a second. So you're not necessarily directly in that space. I don't know, potentially incubate some companies in that space through rain matter. Uh, but you obviously seen an explosion in the prices of cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin, Ethereum and others and explosion and things like non fungible tokens and decentralized finance. What's your view on crypto and blockchain? Uh, how has it reshaped the way you think about business or FinTech, or are you thinking that this is some sort of a short-term fad that's going to wane?
Nikhil Kamath: (31:50)
Yeah, so John, I I'm fairly jaded by the fact that I've missed the bus and I don't own any Bitcoins or I don't have any large crypto investments. Uh, I think central banks across the world, especially in America for that, in that case has been fairly irresponsible over the last two or three decades. I think they have continued to print money, uh, at a rate that that should ideally have the rest of the world question what is happening. But considering that, you know, it's not in our best interest to do that. And we all also intern on many dollar backed acids, it does not happen. So I think the use case where something like a Bitcoin, which has a finite number that is available are increasing, but I think the question then is at $60,000 a coin, uh, uh, do I think I have missed the bus and I would not like to change the rally anymore.
Nikhil Kamath: (32:48)
Yeah, I would say, uh, at $60,000 a coin, I don't think I'm in that boat, which believes that, you know, Bitcoins will have the same market capitalization's as gold in a way they're comparing it to things. Uh, it's like, uh, you know, apples to tomatoes, kind of a comparison there, nothing in common at the end of the day, gold still has a use case. And, uh, there is a cost of mining each time you get gold out. So I'm not the biggest fan of crypto coins or Bitcoins. I think, uh, the, the technology definitely has a use case, but the anonymous, it, it kind of delivers to people who are using it, I think will cause trouble at different points of time, which will in turn act as a big hindrance on this becoming a more widely accepted currency.
John Darcie: (33:40)
Yeah. I mean, we've talked to some of the smartest money managers in the world who have a similar, uh, point of view on Bitcoin where they now embrace the story. They understand why it has rallied and in the midst of historic money printing and, uh, and money creation in the midst of us moving to a fully digital world for a year, a year and a half, they fully get it. But, uh, you know, there's some, some ego that comes in when they don't want to be the one holding the bag and chasing, uh, Bitcoin around this $60,000, uh, area. But we try to impress on, on people, our belief that it's still very early, uh, for Bitcoin and, and this entire movement. I want to talk about access to financial markets. And Anthony talked about GameStop for a moment. Um, in general, I think there are differing views on Robin hood, as you mentioned, a lot of the retail investors that invested in GameStop lost their shirt.
John Darcie: (34:33)
You know, they, they, uh, thought that this was some type of game that Robin hood has definitely gamified, uh, people's participation in financial markets and given people access that didn't have it before. On one hand, that's very positive that you have more people that are participating potentially in, you know, asset inflation and, and able to invest in companies even with small dollar amounts. But at the same time that gamification has also Lord people into a game that is very difficult and psychologically challenging. Do you think it's a double-edged sword when it comes to increased access to financial markets or things like Robin hood or zero dot, uh, or do you think it's, it's just overwhelmingly positive to have more people participating? Uh, in that system
Nikhil Kamath: (35:14)
Personally, me, I am kind of a fan of three markets. I think we should have, uh, as much access possible, but what we need to be careful or is, you know, the amount of leverage that is provided and stuff like that, I think that's where the regulators need to step in short, is looking for people to buy games, stop it's okay for people to short game and stuff. But when you allow for someone with $1 to short $50 worth of stock by virtue of leverage, I think that's when things get a bit unnatural, maybe the cap, you know, the natural that can be available on a certain company to the market cap of that company is probably a fair thing to do. Uh, many regulators have done a great job. Some have not. Uh, I don't think in America, the regulators have done a great job. On the other hand in India, some countries in Southeast Asia have been a bit more proactive and kind of like, uh, mitigated risks before large events occurred, but I'm sure, uh, you know, the V or the American regulators are going to turn around and make it harder for these sessions, these scenarios to occur in the future
John Darcie: (36:27)
Only keel. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you on again, just to reiterate, we couldn't agree more with you about, uh, interpersonal interactions. So we're looking forward to next time we see you not be on zoom, but either at the wine party in Davos or potentially at our salt conference in September, uh, we would like nothing more.
Nikhil Kamath: (36:45)
Thank you so much on thank you, Anthony. Lovely catching up. Yeah. It's a
Anthony Scaramucci: (36:49)
Pleasure to have you on with us and we're looking forward to seeing you live and I promise you very good wine the next time we get together.
Nikhil Kamath: (36:56)
Definitely looking forward to that. You're welcome. Thank you. Fantastic.
John Darcie: (37:01)
Thank you again to Kiel and thank you everybody for tuning into today's salt talk, uh, within the Nickeel come off, who is the co-founder with his brother Nitten of both zero dot the leading a broker brokerage platform in India, as well as true beacon. Uh, one of the top emerging asset managers in India, as well as incubating, uh, tons of exciting FinTech companies. Just a reminder, if you missed any part of this talk or any of our previous salt talks, you can access them all on our website@salt.org backslash talks and on our YouTube channel, which is called salt tube. We're all on social media, on all the different platforms. We're most active on Twitter though, at salt conference, we'd love for you to follow us there. Uh, but also on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram as well. And please spread the word about these salt talks. Uh, we love meeting new people and introducing our audience to new people like Nickeel who are young people doing exciting things in the world of finance and technology, but on behalf of Anthony and the entire salt team, this is John Darcie signing off from salt talks for today. We hope to see you back here soon.