“I will forever bemoan the lack of a consistent national message that transcends politics.”
Phil Murphy is the 56th Governor of the State of New Jersey. He has signed legislation putting New Jersey on the path to a $15-an-hour minimum wage, enacted the nation’s strongest equal pay law to combat gender wage discrimination, ensured all workers have access to paid sick days, and expanded the state's Paid Family Leave provisions. From 2009-13, under President Obama, Murphy served as the U.S. Ambassador to Germany.
New Jersey was among the states, along with New York and Connecticut, hit hardest by COVID-19 early in the pandemic. This forced a series of difficult decisions around restricting indoor sports, indoor dining, concerts etc. Consistent national messaging plays a critical role getting state residents to understand the need for responsible behavior. The lack of leadership and messaging early on, when it has the most impact, continues to have negative downstream effects. This has required states like New Jersey to be aggressive in supporting small businesses hurt by the restrictions. “We have put grants, loans, capital into, I think at this point, 35,000 small businesses.”
In order to avoid a massive economic fallout, large federal stimulus is required. The moment calls for around $3 trillion in spending. State and local governments are facing budget shortfalls and federal support will allow these governments to continue employing frontline workers facing the pandemic head-on.
LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE
SPEAKER
Phil Murphy
56th Governor of the State of New Jersey
MODERATOR
Anthony Scaramucci
Founder & Managing Partner
SkyBridge
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
John Darsie: (00:07)
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is John Darsie. I'm the managing director of SALT, which is a global thought leadership forum and networking platform at the intersection of finance, technology and public policy.
John Darsie: (00:22)
SALT Talks are a digital interview series that we started during this work from home period with leading investors, creators and thinkers. What we're trying to do during these SALT Talks and what we're trying to do at our global conferences is provide a window into the mind of subject matter experts as well as provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future.
John Darsie: (00:43)
Our guest today, we're very excited to welcome him onto SALT Talks. He is someone who has had an incredible career in business and is now leading the state of New Jersey as a governor. We're very excited today to welcome Governor Phil Murphy to SALT Talks.
John Darsie: (00:57)
Governor Murphy, as he says, grew up in a family that was middle class on a good day. He was the youngest of four children with only one parent who graduated from high school. His upbringing, where religion, a strong work ethic, education and civic awareness were pillars of his family life, shaped his values, his priorities and the leader that he is today.
John Darsie: (01:18)
Since taking office, Governor Murphy has focused on building a stronger and fairer New Jersey that works for every family. He signed legislation putting New Jersey on the path to a $15.00 an hour minimum wage, enacted the nation's strongest equal pay law to combat gender wage discrimination, and he's ensured that all workers have access to paid sick days and expanded the state's paid family leave provisions.
John Darsie: (01:44)
Governor Murphy restored state funding for Planned Parenthood and other women's health programs, including family planning services. He also made New Jersey a national leader in tackling gun violence, and has expanded protects for the state's immigrant and LGBTQ communities, among others.
John Darsie: (02:02)
Nationally, he served proudly as New Jersey's sole representative on the board of the NAACP, the world's oldest civil rights organization, and as the finance chair for the Democratic National Committee.
John Darsie: (02:14)
In 2009, he answered President Obama's call to service. And following his confirmation by the US Senate, he became the US ambassador to the Federal Republic of Germany where he served until 2013.
John Darsie: (02:26)
He's a proud product of the public school system, and he also holds degrees from Harvard University and the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania.
John Darsie: (02:35)
Just a reminder, if you have any questions for Governor Murphy during today's SALT Talk, you can enter them in the Q & A box at the bottom of your video screen.
John Darsie: (02:43)
Hosting today's Talk is Anthony Scaramucci, the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge Capital, a global alternative investment firm. Anthony is also the chairman of SALT. Anthony's tenure in government, as I like to say when we have other public officials on, not quite as long as Governor Murphy's tenure so far in government, but we're hoping that maybe Anthony one day [crosstalk 00:03:03] can build on those 11 days that he served in the Trump Administration.
Anthony Scaramucci: (03:07)
You see how he starts out, Governor. Listen, if you have a one day program where I can be the comm's director for one day, so I can have an even dozen of days in public service, is just something I'm going to throw out there.
Anthony Scaramucci: (03:19)
It's great to see you, Governor. I know you and I both don't believe in fake news, but since I'm lying about my age, I don't want to let people know how far back you and I go. Okay, so it's nice to meet you, sir, for the first time.
Anthony Scaramucci: (03:37)
But in all seriousness, Governor Murphy and I go back about 30 years. It's certainly hard to believe. But, let's take it way back, Governor. Tell us something about yourself that we couldn't find on Wikipedia or from your very august resume.
Phil Murphy: (03:53)
John Darsie, thanks for your introduction. Anthony, it's great to be with you. You and I go back, as you say, over 30 years and it's really, really good to be with you, virtually as it is.
Phil Murphy: (04:06)
Listen, John said it. When we grew up, we were in what you would call, I think, working poor circumstances. In other words, both my parents worked. We all worked. I worked under the table as a dishwasher, in what we call a coffee shop, outside of Boston when I was 13, in the summer of 13 going on 14. So it wasn't that we weren't willing to work, we just didn't make enough money. And we were living on top of each other. But I got to tell you something, I wouldn't trade that for anything.
Phil Murphy: (04:35)
Our kitchen tables were tight, but we talked about civics, politics, union leaders, Jack Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King. I'm the youngest of four. My oldest sister would debate my dad about the Civil Rights Movement, or about the Vietnam War, about the Catholic Church. It was an incredible and tight family growing up.
Phil Murphy: (05:02)
Frankly, we, now, Tammy and I, and you go back with Tammy over 30 years as well, we have four kids and we're trying to replicate that same sort of ambience, that same sort of atmosphere of the kitchen table since we've had kids. So again, it was a great family upbringing and we're trying to do our best to give the same to our kids.
Anthony Scaramucci: (05:26)
Well, and I appreciate it. I've been to your beautiful home and met your kids. They're adorable people. God bless you for that, Governor.
Anthony Scaramucci: (05:34)
I want to go right into the COVID-19 situation. You've been one of the big leaders in terms of explaining to people what they need to do from a public health and a public safety perspective. I'd like you to talk a little bit, if you don't mind, about some of the business operation restrictions and the potentiality of school closures. What factors are going into your decision making on restrictions right now?
Anthony Scaramucci: (05:58)
I know that you shut down youth sports, indoor youth sports, temporarily until January 4th. Where do you think that goes? What factors will go into the decision of potentially reopening? Just let us into the inner sanctum of your thought process and your team.
Phil Murphy: (06:15)
Yep, all good question. Just to step back is context, and people know this, but New Jersey and New York, Connecticut got clobbered early on. We've lost well over 15,000 lives. We were scrambling. I mean, there is just no two ways about it. The country was scrambling and we certainly were in this region and the state. We beat the curve down with the help of millions of New Jerseyans, and we had a relatively peaceful summer. Remember, Anthony, we were doing most of our living outdoors where the virus is a lot less lethal.
Phil Murphy: (06:51)
We'd get back to school, you get some religious holidays, the weather gets colder, pandemic fatigue goes up. You begin this one after the other holidays of Thanksgiving, Hanukkah, Advent, Kwanzaa, Christmas, New Years. The epidemiological curve, that surges again, and we are in the thick of it again. We're printing 5,000 or more cases a day. People, sadly, are dying. Our hospitalizations are up.
Phil Murphy: (07:24)
I will just say this, it's going to get worse before it gets better. The very bad news is, the next couple of month, I think are going to be lousy in all the metrics we look at and all the sacrifices we're going to have to make. The very good news is, these vaccines are real, and they're coming, and they're coming soon. So we're going to be light years in a different place by the spring.
Phil Murphy: (07:48)
When we see transmissions, we try to be surgical. In the spring, we had no choice. We were at the edge of the abyss. We didn't know if we were going to run out of hospital beds or ventilators, so we had to shut the whole place down. I don't anticipate that, Anthony, now. Is it a possibility? Yeah, it is. But, we're trying to be much more surgical.
Phil Murphy: (08:07)
So we saw, for instance, I'll give you two examples, indoor dining late at night, people got sloppy. Restaurants, not all the cases, but many cases, started to look more like clubs. Bar seating in particular was a source of transmission. We said, okay, after 10:00 you got to shut on indoor dining. Likewise, you mentioned youth sports. We're seeing transmission, not necessarily in the sport, but in the adjacent activities, whether it's locker room, convening for a pizza in the basement afterwards, whatever it might be. We put a temporary halt, December 5th to January 2nd, on indoor sports. I hope we get back and have an indoor winter season.
Phil Murphy: (08:49)
The last thing I want to do, I've got four kids, they all play sports, I don't want to be the one that doesn't allow the high school senior to have that basketball, final basketball season or whatever the sport may be. So I don't think we have to shut the whole place down, but I have to say, everything is on the table. It's going to get tough. It's going to get worse before it gets better.
Anthony Scaramucci: (09:09)
Yeah, well, I think one of the things that you've done a great job of explaining, Governor, and I just want you to address is because you mentioned the hospital beds. Some of my friends who are libertarians say, "Well, I know the risks. Why can't I just go out and do whatever I'm going to do, and if I get it, I get it, so be it?" But I point out to them, "There is only a million hospital beds in the United States. We have over 100,000 people in those beds right now that have COVID-19."
Anthony Scaramucci: (09:34)
And so, how do we get that information out there? How do we get that level of community awareness out there, so that we are saving each other and our libertarian idea of individualism is, A, I'm going to decide to stay home to protect my family and to protect my fellow citizens?
Phil Murphy: (09:54)
Yeah. It's hard, and it's gotten harder, Anthony. That person that wants to do that, God bless them. Here is the other problem, not only can they get sick, but if they're healthy, it's less likely they'll get sick, they can still get sick, but it's less likely, but they can easily transmit the virus to somebody whose older, somebody whose got underlying healthy conditions. They can even, with their own view of what a best intentions is, they can infect someone. God forbid, and that person can get hospitalized or die. I think we have to plead, continually plead with the public megaphones that we have.
Phil Murphy: (10:35)
We've been able consistently to find common ground with the Trump Administration in our hour of need on testing, on ventilators, on bed capacity. I'll forever be grateful for that. But, I will forever bemoan the lack of a consistent national message that transcends politics. This, frankly, has nothing to do with politics. You know what? This is what your behavior has to look like. You got to wear these. They matter, not just for others, but for you. Just a consistent, national talking points, consistent national themes, policies. I bemoan the lack of that, and I think we've suffered and paid a big price from that. I hope that will change.
Phil Murphy: (11:20)
I anticipate it will change. But, in some respects, the horse is out of the barn. It's much easier to have done that early on in the pandemic when everybody was rightfully unified in their fear. They just didn't know what they were facing. The passage of time has allowed too many horses to get out of the barn. I worry that it's going to be hard to pull some of that back in.
Anthony Scaramucci: (11:45)
Well, we've had public health and safety officials on. Dr. Vivek Murthy, who is now going to go on to be the surgeon general again did say, "It is easier to slow down the curve before it gets to that exponential hockey stick than it is to now bend the curve."
Phil Murphy: (12:03)
Yeah.
Anthony Scaramucci: (12:03)
But with that, you were talking about vaccines, Governor. What is New Jersey's plan for rolling out the vaccine, including the education to ensure the mass adoption of that vaccine?
Phil Murphy: (12:15)
Yeah. I mean, that last point is a big one. We've got a big anti-vax block in our state as there is in every state. We certainly have it here. They're unified and they are loud. By the way, not lately, Anthony, but the past couple of months has been pretty much politics free in our deliberations on the vaccine. But in the summer, into the early sort of into Labor Day, a little bit too much political noise around the vaccines as it relates to the election. There was some amount of noise. We probably still have some amount of folks who are recoiling from that.
Phil Murphy: (12:54)
I, personally, think it's, the vaccine development has been nothing short of miraculous. It's safe, based on everything we know. So we've started a public campaign already. Our aspiration is to get 77.0% of our state vaccinated. That's a reach, but we're going to try. We'll get our first batch within a week, if it goes well at the FDA for the emergency use authorization. We'll begin getting the Pfizer vaccine first and then Moderna. Each week, we'll get larger and larger doses. We've submitted our plan. It's now fine tuned down to literally where it's going to get drop shipped.
Phil Murphy: (13:40)
Health care workers and long term care residents and staff are the first priorities. And then we'll go from there, vulnerable communities, other essential frontline workers. I think, Anthony, by April, May, we have a wide availability to anybody in our state who wants a vaccine. And that, to me, is a complete game changer.
Anthony Scaramucci: (14:04)
So while we're rolling this out, and I appreciate your optimism, I share your optimism, Governor, tell us what New Jersey is doing to help small businesses during the pandemic. I know you as a business person who is an incredibly strong, business-minded progressive. Would that be a fair description of how you see yourself, Governor?
Phil Murphy: (14:28)
I think that's right. I mean, I call myself a pro-growth progressive, which is a different way of saying that.
Anthony Scaramucci: (14:35)
Yeah, exactly. So what are we doing for these small businesses, sir?
Phil Murphy: (14:38)
So they've been crushed. That's not news, but that's a fact, especially the restaurant hospitality sector. I think, frankly, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back because the small business experience this year has been awful, but I'd put our record up against any American State. We have put grants, loans, literally, capital into, I think at this point, 35,000 small businesses.
Phil Murphy: (15:13)
The overwhelming amount of those funds have come out of CRF, or Coronavirus Relief Funds that we have deployed into small businesses. And so we've got, as I say, the 35,000 or more. I speak to these business owners all the time. It's been a godsend, a life line. But, and the big but is, we need, not just a vaccine, but we need multiples of that. And that gives me the opportunity to get on both knees and beg for a big, federal stimulus bill.
Phil Murphy: (15:49)
You and I were texting back in the spring. I had seen you on television and you were in the, as I recall, the three trillion dollar neighborhood. I continue to think this is a three trillion dollar moment.
Anthony Scaramucci: (16:05)
Yeah.
Phil Murphy: (16:06)
It's not a $900 billion dollar moment. I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for folks coming together. And believe me, I'll take it. But, we need more. And if you're unemployed, if you're a small business, if you're a restaurant in particular, if you're a state that's got to keep a budget and keep employment of frontline workers who are delivering services or a local budget, the local governments, at so many levels, we still need a big federal moment that meets the moment that this pandemic has presented us.
Anthony Scaramucci: (16:40)
Well, I appreciate you remembering that, Governor because John Darsie and I did the economic analysis. These stimuluses need to be way bigger. Just imagine if we had a homeland invasion of a sovereign government with its army that killed 280,000 Americans, was killing 2,000 or 1,800 Americans a day, but wounding 150 to 200,000 Americans, what type of response would we have from the government? And that gives you the sense or the scale that I think we need. I agree with you.
Anthony Scaramucci: (17:13)
I want to talk a little bit about what's afflicting, not just the State of New Jersey, I would say, the Northeast. It would also be California. It is the tax changes that took place in 2017 with the SALT tax reduction, and also now that put pressure on the states, and the new taxes that you've had to impose to try to help close the deficit there.
Anthony Scaramucci: (17:38)
We are seeing some predictions of migration. Our old employer, Goldman Sachs, as an example, where you were once a partner, considering moving the wealth management business or the asset management business to South Florida. What are your thoughts on all this? What are your predictions about the potential migration? How do you plan to keep businesses and workers in the State of New Jersey?
Phil Murphy: (18:00)
It's funny. When I heard, was listening to John Darsie in your introduction and when I see your name and I see SALT besides you, I think always, they got to come up with a different name on the cap on the state and local tax deductions. So you're hit in a drive-by shooting, innocent bystander.
Anthony Scaramucci: (18:21)
Right.
Phil Murphy: (18:22)
Listen, we're going to continue to do everything we can to get that cap lifted. Let me just say that specifically. It's damaging as heck, and it's not just New Jersey. It's crushed us. I didn't like it. I don't like it. I'll continue to do everything I can to get it lifted. And so, that's a specific answer to that. It was a huge blunder as a federal tax policy. It happened before I got here. So I got elected in November of '17. That happened in Washington in December of '17, and I was sworn in, in January of '18.
Phil Murphy: (19:07)
Having said that, we bill ourselves as the number one state in America to raise a family. It's my job to make sure that folks see the value in what they pay and what they get back for that. So we have the number one public education system in America two years running. We have the number one or two, depending on which metric you look at, health care system in America. We have the highest number of PhDs and scientists per square mile of anywhere in the world. We have a location second to none.
Phil Murphy: (19:44)
I was at a state visit in India last year. It feels like 20 years ago. When I sell New Jersey, I sell two words, talent and location. If you look at our administration, that's where our overwhelming amount of our investment has been, including in a dire fiscal budget reality that we're going through right now. We've ring-fenced education, workforce development, higher ed support as well as infrastructure.
Phil Murphy: (20:13)
Today, Anthony, I just was outside. I crossed the street at Newark Penn Station talking about the beginning, right now, of rehabilitating and bringing back to life the beautiful, what was the beautiful Newark Penn Station, seventh busiest rail station in America, which has been left to go for far too long. So we're all in on that.
Phil Murphy: (20:37)
The pandemic has had a wrinkle. I have to say this. So in other words, if you're working and you've got kids you want to get educated, we want to be either a state or the state of choice for you, quality of life, school, convenience, commuting, health care, you name it. The pandemic has added a dimension to this, which is fascinating. You've seen this. You see a lot of folks rejecting a vertical work environment, or a vertical living environment, or an urban environment period. And then not, in fact, going to South Carolina or Florida, particularly if they've got kids that they want to get education and particularly if headquarters remain in New York or Philadelphia. By the way, I do nothing but root for the success of New York City and Philadelphia, because in so many respect as they go, we go.
Phil Murphy: (21:35)
But this whole notion of, I want a backyard, of working at home, at least for another six months or a year, I want to get my kids educated, we have seen an enormous influx of people into New Jersey, particularly in the Metro New York and Metro Philadelphia counties. Houses are flying off the market. Again, is it temporary? Is it permanent? I'm not smart enough to know. And again, we wish nothing but success for the New York and Philadelphias of the world. But, that is a dimension that if you and I were talking nine months ago, we still had a lot of people coming here, but the acceleration is really, really striking over the past nine months.
Anthony Scaramucci: (22:23)
It's not going to surprise you, Governor, I don't talk to the president anymore. But, when I was talking to him and we brought up the tax situation, I don't say this as a blue state or I just want to fortify some of the things you're thinking about, what I said to President Trump is that these states are the fountain of innovation and economic growth for the entire country. And so, that tax policy depleting those states, causing a migration of intellectual capital, you're going to have a domino effect into the rest of the nation that you're not going to like, because those states are equipped to handle the influx of immigration and all the great intellectual capital that springs from immigration. Needless to say, he didn't agree with me, but I just thought I would point that out.
Phil Murphy: (23:09)
Listen, that's a well, as usual, a well reasoned argument. And I agree 100% with you.
Anthony Scaramucci: (23:15)
We got to be careful with this economic innovation, particularly with those blue states. Having the safety net is so important for those states.
Phil Murphy: (23:22)
You bet.
Anthony Scaramucci: (23:23)
I have two more questions before I turn it over to John Darsie, who is going to try to outshine the two of us, Governor. So you got to turn it up a notch, because I don't want Darsie coming in with all that millennial youth-
Phil Murphy: (23:35)
No, no.
Anthony Scaramucci: (23:35)
... and trying to power us, okay.
Phil Murphy: (23:37)
We got to channel Tom Brady and Drew Brees and Eric Rodgers and some of the older lions who are still on the field.
Anthony Scaramucci: (23:44)
Exactly. That's what I'm all about. I guess, we got 74 million people that voted for President Trump. I guess, because I voted for him in 2016 and I pad my explanation there, but I'm worried. I [inaudible 00:24:04] very candid about that. Those 74 million people are not deplorables, they're not racists. You grew up with those people, sir. I grew up with those people. My parents were not educated as well, and I grew up in a blue collar neighborhood.
Anthony Scaramucci: (24:20)
What do we say to those 74 million people? Why are they supporting him? What can more benevolent politicians do to better communicate to those voters to bring them back into the fold where they don't feel as left out, or as President Trump described this weekend, as victims in our society? What do we do?
Phil Murphy: (24:45)
Yeah. We ignore that number, Anthony, at our peril. As a nation, certainly as a Democratic Party, but as a nation, we ignore it at our peril. Those are people who are screaming out for help, in my opinion. They've been victims of probably any number of mega trends that have swept through our country and the world over the past couple of decades. On my list would be trade policy shifting somewhat, if not largely related, shifting of manufacturing in the world, technology, to pick some mega trends. These folks are screaming out. They want help. President Trump or candidate Trump in 2016 said, I'll be that guy.
Phil Murphy: (25:39)
I think it is striking in a reelection that he got more votes. We ignore that at our peril. Even if we question, as I do, whether or not his policies, in fact helped or impaired their lives, he was able to convince them, to the tune of 74 million people, that he was their guy, not just the first time, but the second time. And that, to me, is far more relevant than what he did in 2016, right. In 2020, he's running on a four year track record. And so, I think it's got to be a moment of reckoning for our country and certainly for our party.
Phil Murphy: (26:21)
I do think if we were to have from central casting a guy who is elected from our party, at least, as president who has lived that life himself, whose grown up in it like you and I did, and I think even more importantly, has led by example in now what is almost five decades of public service, I think we couldn't have, again, I'll say selfishly as a Democrat, but I think as America, a better incoming president than Joe Biden.
Phil Murphy: (26:55)
But, I think this has got to be all in on an economic program that is real, that includes workforce development, that looks around the corner and gets out ahead of the next mega trend. In other words, that not only are we dragging, being dragged by the trends that have swept through us like trade and an exodus of manufacturing, huge hurt among our farmers... By the way, I'm governor of the Garden State. We're the densest state in America. We still have a proud agricultural industry and they have suffered. I just think we need a whole new...
Phil Murphy: (27:44)
What is it right now in America like to be in a working family, particularly a working poor family? And what are the steps we can take together, parking the partisan stuff at the door, that goes directly into helping these people's lives get better? I think this has got to be an all in moment.
Anthony Scaramucci: (28:08)
Well said, Governor. My last question, from 2009 to 2013, you served with great distinction as the US ambassador to Germany. How would you describe our alliances right now in Europe and across the world? What would your recommendation be to the Biden Administration in terms of your observation, your first-hand observation of those alliances?
Phil Murphy: (28:37)
The alliances are, without question, frayed. They've been damaged, but they're not destroyed. I'd love to think there is a light switch that can be applied to getting those alliances immediately back to where they need to be, but I think that's naïve. I think it will take time. Anthony, these are both bilateral alliances, such as the US Germany, but also the multilateral organizations like NATO and the World Health Organization and the World Trade Organization, et cetera.
Phil Murphy: (29:14)
The other observation I would make is, and I know Joe Biden knows this and his team, which is an outstanding team, it's not just your father's Oldsmobile anymore. It's not 2016 anymore. You have to account for the four years that have interceded, good, bad, and otherwise.
Phil Murphy: (29:35)
By the way, I'll give you one example where I've been thematically with President Trump and that is that China can't have it both ways. I have not liked the tactics. I've not agreed with his tactics. But, the thrust of making China play by the rules was the right intention. I think the execution is where there was a challenge.
Phil Murphy: (30:03)
But, I want to see strengthening. I think you'll get the symbols as well as the substance very early on from who will be then President Biden, a strengthening in the TransAtlantic relationship, strengthening our engagement with NATO, and then strengthening the particular alliances with our best allies. Germany, high on that list, Angela Merkel. Many things in the world change. It turns out, over the past 15 years, the one thing that doesn't is Angela Merkel. That's where I would start. I'm biased. Obviously, I'm a big fan of hers. But, we got to get back at it.
Phil Murphy: (30:44)
By the way, last comment, we wouldn't do what I've just said because it's nice to do or it's good for them. What I've just suggested, strengthening those relationships and alliance, is in our cold-blooded, national, selfish interests, and that's why we should do it.
Anthony Scaramucci: (31:02)
When I travel to Germany, Governor, the joke in Germany is, school boys say all over Germany, "Is it possible for a man to become leader of this country?" That's what they ask in Germany. [crosstalk 00:31:14].
Phil Murphy: (31:16)
Time will tell.
Anthony Scaramucci: (31:17)
Yeah. Time will tell, exactly right. And so with that, I'm going to turn it over to my least favorite millennial, okay.
John Darsie: (31:24)
Thank you, Anthony.
Anthony Scaramucci: (31:24)
There are many millennials on my list that are higher than you, John. I'm just kidding.
John Darsie: (31:29)
I probably deserve that for all of the torment that I give you on these SALT Talks.
Anthony Scaramucci: (31:34)
It's all good. Okay, go ahead, fire away at the Governor.
John Darsie: (31:37)
Yeah, just a personal anecdote, Governor. My wife's family is in the real estate development business. Traditionally, invested in New York City, but they have now shifted a lot of that investment to Monmouth County, New Jersey. They're very grateful for your pro-growth leadership-
Phil Murphy: (31:50)
Wow!
John Darsie: (31:50)
... in places like Asbury Park that was once one of the great cities of the East Coast and is now back on the rise. We're seeing a lot of great towns and cities in New Jersey continue to grow. It's very exciting to see.
Phil Murphy: (32:01)
John, three quick things. I sent a note to the mayor of Asbury Park, John Moor, this morning just to check in on him. It's a great community. Secondly, I live in Monmouth County, so thank your in-laws for that. And thirdly, I think we're at long last very close to having a incentives package that's smart, forward leaning, works for everybody, not just for some. And I think that will spur further development in the state.
John Darsie: (32:26)
Yeah. I mean, they're shifting investment to places like Austin, Texas and Asbury Park, New Jersey, not necessarily Florida and Texas only. They view New Jersey as a place that has a lot of secular factors. It's close to New York City, but also provides a lot of other great benefits to residents and businesses that want to set up there.
Phil Murphy: (32:44)
Amen.
John Darsie: (32:44)
So a very exciting time to be involved with the State of New Jersey.
John Darsie: (32:48)
I want to talk about Vice President Biden, or now President-elect Biden. I view you guys in somewhat of a similar light, in that, you're dealmakers. You're very good at getting in the room and convincing people to come up with common sense solutions. What do you expect the Biden Administration to prioritize in its first 100 days? And if you were the policy czar, let's say, in the Biden Administration, what would you push the administration to focus on early on?
Phil Murphy: (33:15)
So I'll leave aside foreign policy for a second, John, in answering this because among other things, we just, Anthony and I just talked about that. But obviously, strengthening our alliances would be high on the list. But, I'll put that aside.
Phil Murphy: (33:29)
The President-elect and I had a good conversation on Saturday night, so a couple of nights ago. I think there are three big ones. It seems to me, get a hold of the pandemic with that consistent, national set of policies and talking points, "This is what we're going to do. This is what we're about values-based," so pandemic. Federal stimulus, I think no matter what happens between now and January 20. I was just on the phone with Speaker Pelosi. And again, I'll take anything right now, and I applaud the folks trying to get a deal done. But, no matter what it is, it's going to be only a fraction of what we're going to need. So if it's $900 billion, we're going to need two or three times that, so stimulus. And I think, thirdly, infrastructure.
Phil Murphy: (34:22)
President Trump or President-elect Trump when he came in, he wasn't my guy, but I said, "Listen, the one area," which he talks a really strong game, "where I can see common ground is infrastructure." Unfortunately, that has largely been just that. That's largely been a talking piece. It hasn't been a big substantive part of his agenda.
Phil Murphy: (34:46)
I am thankful that he greenlighted a very big bridge project in New Jersey, which is part of the broader Gateway project. But I think the Biden Administration will get all over infrastructure, all over the entirety of the Gateway project, which is a game changer for the Northeast Corridor, including for New Jersey. So that's my big holy trinity, putting alliances and foreign policy aside, pandemic, stimulus, infrastructure.
John Darsie: (35:17)
So you have a business background. You're a pro-growth progressive. How quickly do you expect the economy to start to normalize once the vaccine takes hold? I think, we're expecting the vaccine to be administered pretty heavily late Q1 into Q2 and into the second half of next year, potentially have a lot of the population vaccinated to the point where we can get back to some level of normalcy. From an economic perspective, what do you expect the economic recovery to look like starting in the second half of next year into the next several years?
Phil Murphy: (35:50)
I will tell you, I was going to ask Anthony this as well. I'd love yours, John, your opinion and Anthony's on this. I think you see a significant bounce slash spike if the public health trajectory goes as we're talking about. So everything from a very bad couple of months, but vials begin to be delivered next week, through broad access to a vaccine by April, May, I think you see a very significant bounce, spike up in Q2 and Q3.
Phil Murphy: (36:24)
You'll probably then stabilize at some level, which is still, I would guess, for a couple of years at least trying to get back completely on our feet. So again, a spike up and then a fairly static period of moderate finding our way that I think could be a couple of years.
John Darsie: (36:53)
Can we avoid it being K-shaped? There is a lot of talk about a K-shape recovery. How do we avoid leaving so many more people behind that are already disillusioned and might have led them to vote for someone like President Trump?
Phil Murphy: (37:03)
Yeah. I've said this many times and I'll say it again with you guys, history will not be unkind if we overshoot with federal stimulus. I think it'll be brutally unkind, not just to the historians, but to the individuals if we undershoot. And that includes millions, tens of millions of the folks who voted for President Trump who deserve a better shake, who deserve a better path forward as workers and as members of working families.
Phil Murphy: (37:35)
I'm a big union guy. I have to say that up front. I believe that unions, their strength and/or diminution, correlate almost 100% with the strength of our middle class in our state, in our country. So I think federal stimulus that is not just big in the here and now, but that the federal government plays the right kind of role in guiding a better future for those working families, workforce development, increase in minimum wage, a fair deal for our farmers in rural communities, those are elements of a longer set of policy agenda that I think we need to be all over.
John Darsie: (38:19)
You campaigned on the idea of creating a statewide investment bank of sorts. We actually had a SALT Talks panel a few weeks ago with some municipal investing experts who talked about the benefits, potentially, of creating a sovereign wealth fund type of apparatus at the federal level as well. Just for people who don't understand what that would mean, what would be the benefit of both a state and federal level investment institution that thought about things at a more macro level?
Phil Murphy: (38:47)
Anthony, these questions from John are really good. I just want you to know that.
John Darsie: (38:50)
This happens every time, Governor. Everyone is [crosstalk 00:38:52] very bored at the beginning, and then I get to come in and ask the intelligent questions.
Anthony Scaramucci: (38:57)
Let me tell you something, Governor. I'm trying to help the kid out, okay.
Phil Murphy: (39:00)
I know. I know.
Anthony Scaramucci: (39:01)
Look at his haircut. Look at the way he's dressed without the tie. I am trying to help the guy out.
Phil Murphy: (39:06)
You guys should [crosstalk 00:39:08] go on the road.
Anthony Scaramucci: (39:09)
I had to feed him some of the good stuff.
Phil Murphy: (39:11)
There you go.
Anthony Scaramucci: (39:12)
Keep rubbing it in, John.
Phil Murphy: (39:14)
So listen, I can't [crosstalk 00:39:16].
John Darsie: (39:15)
Let the Governor get in.
Anthony Scaramucci: (39:16)
By the way, like at Goldman, bonus season is just around the corner. The kid [crosstalk 00:39:19]. I just wanted you to know that.
Phil Murphy: (39:22)
This explains a lot.
Anthony Scaramucci: (39:23)
I'll be calling you, Governor to discuss his compensation when this is over.
Phil Murphy: (39:27)
There you go. So John, I'll speak to the state level. The public bank is an idea I still like a lot. In fact, we've had a group that's a standing commission trying to work through the, work the kinks out for over a year at this point. The pandemic has slowed us a little bit. It's more complicated than I ever would have hoped.
Phil Murphy: (39:47)
The place that's done it, and they've done it for over 100 years, is North Dakota, of all places. It doesn't look anything like New Jersey, but this is an idea that we love. It's not an anti this or that. It's not a political statement. I think it's filled with a lot of smart logic. And it's the following, when folks pay their taxes or they pay their fees, if it isn't to a local community bank, and we're all in on supporting our local community banks, it inevitably is into one of the big money center banks. The money goes. It sits there. The banks uses it like banks should and have a right to, to then build a loan book out of those deposits.
Phil Murphy: (40:34)
The problem is, the money goes out to sit in the deposits. The loan book that is built from those deposits rarely comes close to returning the favor back into lending to projects in New Jersey.
John Darsie: (40:49)
Right.
Phil Murphy: (40:49)
And so, the idea is a simple one. Yet, you have a walled off institution that's basically owned by our citizens, by our taxpayers. You load in the deposits, and then that bank makes... has a book of business that is lending into small businesses. Student loans, which is where the North Dakota experience really was the most impressive, it's small scale infrastructure, so not big Gateway projects, but small community based stuff. I did love it. I do love it. I will always love it. It's harder to get set up for reasons I won't get into, but we still are committed to doing everything we can to at least try to get that done.
John Darsie: (41:37)
My last question before we let you go. So obviously, the pandemic has created a lot of budgetary challenges at the state and local level that we're going to have to confront as part of these packages that are in Congress right now, these stimulus packages or recovery packages. But, there is also things that we can do organically that can help states shore up some of these budget shortfalls. One of them is potentially marijuana legalization.
John Darsie: (42:02)
You've been a proponent of legalization of marijuana for recreational purposes. Let's talk about recreational marijuana legalization as well as other things that you think should happen at the state and local level, obviously with federal blessing, to help shore up some of these budget shortfalls we're seeing at the state level.
Phil Murphy: (42:19)
Yeah. I'll be brief, because I know our, the clock is running overtime. It's something I campaigned on. It's something we've been trying to get done. And at long last, it's actually happening. I didn't get there though because of the budget. I got there because of social justice or social injustice.
Phil Murphy: (42:36)
I inherited a state with the widest white non-white gap of persons incarcerated in America, and the overwhelmingly biggest reason were low end drug offenses. So we tried to get it done legislatively, came close, couldn't get it done. We put it on the ballot. It passed overwhelmingly in November. Literally Friday, so four days ago, the legislative leadership and I ironed out the last details of the enabling legislation that we need. God willing that'll get done in the next couple of weeks.
Phil Murphy: (43:10)
We're beginning to set a commission up that will then oversee the beginning of the industry. We've had a very successful three year run with our medical marijuana industry. It was set up years ago, but it was left to really stagnate. We've grown that aggressively. This commission will oversee both medical and recreational. My guess is mid-summer into the fall where we'll first start to see access to this.
Phil Murphy: (43:39)
We'll address social injustices. We'll control the rules of the game, not criminal interests. And by the way, to your question, we'll raise some money, revenue for the state and create a lot of good jobs. So I think it's a win-win-win.
John Darsie: (43:55)
Well, Governor Murphy, we're very grateful for you taking time out of your day to join us on SALT Talks and get the message out about the COVID situation as well as other things you're doing in New Jersey that we think could be adopted at the national level and among other states to increase growth and keep people safe. So thank you so much.
Phil Murphy: (44:12)
John, thank you. Anthony, thank you guys very much for having me, a real treat.
Anthony Scaramucci: (44:17)
Governor, all the best. Merry Christmas to you. Happy Holidays to everybody. Thank you.
Phil Murphy: (44:21)
Likewise.
Anthony Scaramucci: (44:22)
Thanks for coming on.
Phil Murphy: (44:23)
My honor. Thanks for having me.