“I started getting interested in [digital assets] watching my children. To see how they play video games and value certain things.”
Roxanne Davies is the managing partner of Parly Singapore, the Asian investment arm for the multi-century-old European family office (SFO).
The rise of digital assets is better understood by the younger generation of consumers. The inherent value of a video game skin in Clash of Clans is more easily understood and that paves the way for the normalization of the larger digital asset world. That change in mindset as a consumer trend will have a major effect on investing. Depending on a family office’s risk tolerance and tech savvy, digital assets like NFTs will likely become part of investment portfolios. “I started getting interested in [digital assets] watching my children. To see how they play video games and value certain things.”
Singapore is set up well to become involved in the burgeoning digital asset space. It’s a digital economy and regulation is designed to facilitate innovative wealth.
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SPEAKER
Roxanne Davies
Managing Partner
Parly Singapore Pte Ltd
MODERATOR
Anthony Scaramucci
Founder & Managing Partner
SkyBridge
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Rachel Pether: (00:07)
Everyone. And welcome back to salt talks. My name is Rachel Pether and I'm a senior advisor to SkyBridge capital based in Abu Dhabi, as well as being the emcee for salt, a thought leadership forum and networking platform that encompasses business technology and politics. Seoul talks as a series of digital interviews with some of the world's foremost investors, creators and thinkers. And just as we do at our global salt conference series, we aim to provide our audience a window into the mind of subject matter experts. Today, we're going to be focusing on family offices and digital assets, and that includes everything from the spectrum, from cryptocurrencies to NFTs and digital art. And I'm very excited to be speaking to Roxanne Davies. Who's the managing partner of Polly Singapore. Now Roxanne as a seriously impressive woman. She's a senior investment professional with multi decades of experience running family offices and ultra high net worth departments within private banks.
Rachel Pether: (01:11)
She moved to Asia a little over a decade ago to set up and run Polly Singapore, which is the Asian arm of a 900 year old European family. Based out of Switzerland. She's been a speaker at multiple industry conferences, including salt sits on the investment committee of several global family offices and has held a number of board positions. She has a master's degree in finance and an MBA from at Geneva, and if that's not enough, she speaks four languages. Roxanne, welcome to soul talks. Thank you, Rachel. Or maybe we could start by you telling me a bit more about you and providing a bit more color on who you are.
Roxanne Davies: (01:53)
Um, sure. Thank you. So I, um, have been working with families for about 30 years. I was lucky. I ended up in this incredible family office when family offices, weren't really a word. Um, you know, in the late eighties, early nineties, and this family specifically put about a billion and a half to work in, um, alternative, um, assets, uh, private equity, hedge funds, et cetera, and you know, had offices around the world. So I was able as a foot soldier to kind of learn and grow with this industry. And my focus really was on research and risk management. So I had to do deep dives into, um, hedge funds and how they work and how people are thinking and how these great brilliant minds are thinking and who, how to recognize talent and solve problems. And that was really the start of my career, which took me to, you know, Asia as well as Brazil and Russia and so on, so forth. So I was, I was fortunate, you know, you're obviously
Rachel Pether: (02:55)
Very international, so you're Swiss, but you're born in New York and you've lived all over the world. What originally took you to Singapore? Was it as part of this family office? Correct.
Roxanne Davies: (03:06)
We purchased a listed financial services company around 2009 when we had a very complex operational structure with managed accounts globally. So the, the component of a fund administration technology was important to us. And we thought that a, we bought a list of financial services company, which had a trust license, which we thought was an excellent mid to back office solution for families where we in the process sold it a few years ago. But, um, you know, we are still, I would say this family is a highly progressive family when it comes to operational and, um, you know, admin and, you know, where are your custody and your assets, how it's custody and how it's structure, how are you executing trades? This, this type of thing is a, is a very important part of the investment process. And
Rachel Pether: (03:57)
You mentioned that you're, you know, you're on research and risk management, but the traits that you often use are like problem solving and, and finding talent, given that you've worked with family offices for so long, maybe you could talk a bit about what are some of the skills that you think are really important when working with family offices? That's a really
Roxanne Davies: (04:20)
Great question. And I really feel like it depends on the art type of the family office in itself. What do they want? And in the ideal world, I would say the EEQ component, as well as the IQ and investment management expertise for both the main, um, you know, two of the most important parts of the, uh, of the equation to have a great long-term family office professional, but essentially you have to have a character that is flexible, and that is able to, you know, um, operate in a non institutionalized framework in a general sense. There are plenty of family offices that are now highly institutionalized, you know, um, very, very well organized professional backgrounds, but most of them are flexible. And so you need to be able to work from home or work from anywhere, or be able to handle, um, various different tasks when they come to, you know, when they come to your desk or office, basically.
Roxanne Davies: (05:19)
So you have to deal with different family members and the issues around them. So it's a person, it's a people job. And then on the other side, um, problem solving is a, is a large word for anything that's investment related. You have to have the curiosity and be able to understand how things work, be able to derive parallels across things that you find, you know, that you see evolving, for example. And, um, having been in the alternative asset management industry, I have seen a lot of things that look similar to me. They may not be exactly same things. If you talk to experts that ever going to be able to, you're never going to be able to compare, let's say Hadoop to blockchain, but we look those factors as similar factors as to how did that change the universe of data analytics versus today? What are the applications and, um, businesses that can be built on a distributed ledger system, for example, as a pew, as opposed to a digital file system.
Rachel Pether: (06:16)
Yeah. And I'd love to go into a bit more detail about that distributed ledger technology. Cause I, I know this is an area you're very passionate about as well, but I thought what you said about AICCU was really interesting, I guess that applies both externally on the investment side, but also more importantly, as you mentioned, sort of navigating the family dynamics and the family politics as well,
Roxanne Davies: (06:39)
And as much as you can, you should avoid those things, but sometimes you can't, but then DEQ also comes to play with as an allocator. And I've been doing the allocation to hedge fund managers, private equity managers, fund managers in general, um, or company CEOs for a long time. And you are, you know, you have limited time with them and you have limited, um, ability to sort of sink in as much as you may want to. So you have to, after thousands or hundreds of interviews, you kind of get your red flags up and that's a something that you really can't quantify. It's an art versus a science, but it's extremely important to sort of be able to recognize new talent. That's a very important part of what we do. We have seeded many managers, um, many of them very successful. Um, and you know, that that's an area where I think that we, you know, they want investments or seating managers. We were very successful. And, um, I was lucky to be, you know, with some of the great managers and their very first day of trading. So I feel very good about that. Wow.
Rachel Pether: (07:46)
That's amazing. I'm sure it was a combination of, of luck and skill, but you're right. I mean the seating manager business, as many of us know is a very, very tough ones. So it's certainly difficult to spot both the talent and also the underlying investment thesis as well. And you know, what I thought was really interesting is that you mentioned that the family that you work with has invested or decided to invest quite some years ago, $1.5 billion in alternatives. And I know you were really, I mean, maybe saying one of the runners is perhaps a bit strong, but I do really think you are one of the leaders and the sort of digital assets cryptocurrency space. So maybe rewind a few years and tell me how you first got comfortable with the space and what was your own research and risk management process leading up to it? So,
Roxanne Davies: (08:35)
Um, the 1.5 was absolutely, and the head Trent and private equity world, and that was, um, you know, a different family. This family has dabbled and we certainly haven't been comfortable with, um, you know, large scale institutional investments in this area, but we've been looking at it for a while. So, um, we have direct and indirect investments. Um, personally I started getting interested in it, um, watching my children to be honestly, uh, to be honest with you, um, just seeing how they play games, how they, you know, value certain things. So for them, for example, a skin is akin to an NFT. Um, the skins are valuable, um, the way they play games, the way they trade mining, the way they communicate with people that they don't know how they can cooperate in certain specific clash of clans type of game, for example, in the day.
Roxanne Davies: (09:33)
So I've just watched how some of these games were developing and even something like Minecraft, for example, many, many years ago when my kids were playing that some, a friend of mine had built out the Minecrafter YouTube social net. So there were these very famous influencers on YouTube that represented Minecraft. And I believe the whole concept was similar, which is the Minecraft or, um, lady Gaga would actually bring in the advertising, um, revenues to themselves, right. As opposed to be able to give, let's say a YouTube or another, um, platform full rights and, you know, um, revenue. So it was really, that was kind of a social net, which we thought was an interesting model that company and specifically, um, has changed names and changed, um, DNA a couple of times, but the concept is the same. We still think that this is an interesting, you know, development and then steam. It was also from Dan Larimer, the similar concepts where the creators own the information, own their own information and are able to share it and get revenue back. So that brings us to the NFT world. Um,
Rachel Pether: (10:47)
And before we dive a bit further into the NFT world. So when your kids come to you asking for say birthday or Christmas presents, is that mainly in the, in the physical world or the digital world? Whereas there where's, their focus depends
Roxanne Davies: (11:01)
On the child, but, um, most of most, both of them and most of the kids that I know. So all the nieces and nephews would be focused more on the virtual than the physical. And I've had comments throughout, you know, the last, uh, few years, um, like, oh, you know what, I don't want your RMS bag, or I don't care about this art piece, or I wouldn't want any of these things. And I actually believe that there's a, a change in philosophy and a mindset of this generation that I think is very interesting consumer trend. Um,
Rachel Pether: (11:35)
And I guess you've got that cross generation sort of split or dichotomy with your global perspective. Have you also seen a divergence or difference between cultures? Like, do you think that Asian families are more comfortable with alternatives or digital assets than say and Americans? For example, I
Roxanne Davies: (11:56)
Think that the Asian family offices are as likely to invest in these as other families. I don't think it's a cultural thing to go for it or against it, it will really depend on their risk tolerance and their access. So access is not as easy as it was for example, to set up a Coinbase or Cumberland or crack and et cetera. So some of those, um, exchanges and custody's that are considered somewhat safe were not accessible by everybody. Um, so it really just depends on the specific family. Um, however, I think that, um, there has been, so in China they had more than 50% of the trading volume globally. So this, so China representing a big part of what, um, what we're talking about when we talk about Asia, definitely there are highly, highly advanced and Binance, for example, Neo, et cetera. These are all Chinese or Asian, um, you know, innovations and companies. So I would say it's on an equal footing. Um, however, on a regulatory front it's different. So is it considered a collectible? Is it considered a currency? Is it considered a security? How's it going to be taxed? This tax make a difference? Um, what are the main reasons for, you know, the buy and hold? Um, that kind of thing is, is different. So I would say that would a family office now collect digital assets, um, like an NFT, like be part of it people purchase.
Speaker 4: (13:30)
Yes,
Roxanne Davies: (13:32)
I, uh, there was, you know, a few months ago, a friend of mine was talking to me about a Japanese artist that had created these tokens, that he was very interested in and, you know, they bought them, but I still think that it's still, it's still early days.
Rachel Pether: (13:47)
I'd love to go into the Japanese artist side because you did share some of those pictures and videos with me and they were amazing. But I just wanted to ask a quick question on the regulatory environment within Singapore, because it is actually a jurisdiction that Abu Dhabi has looked to emulate as well, particularly on the financial regulation front. So maybe tell me a bit about what is it about Singapore in particular that makes it such a good place for digital assets, whether that's purchasing or storing or custody, et cetera. The
Roxanne Davies: (14:22)
Port is of course, a very rational wealth management destination. That's there, that's the very, um, important goal for Singapore as a country. And it's been on the innovation it's ranked on the highest innovation lists. It is a digital economy, um, and it puts its money where its mouth is. So there are, you know, there's a complete push from all parts of the government and sub-parts specialized to really, um, uh, bolster the digital economy. But that necessarily mean only crypto. So the project you've been is a Singapore dollar, uh, digital effort that's been going on for several years, maybe even five. So it's, it's to say that there has been a lot of experimentation on the side, similar to the digital one, which has been test marketed in a couple of cities in China. So the, the main currency separate from that would be the, then the payments component of it, right?
Roxanne Davies: (15:20)
So it's a unit of exchange, it's a transferable asset, so to speak. So Singapore already in 2018, 2019 updated the payment services act, um, looked at how to license looked at features. And it has to take its time on a regulatory basis to really assess, you know, the cybersecurity issue when there were plenty of, um, uh, hacks and fasts and that's not okay. So how do you handle the cybersecurity? How do you handle the AML CFT component for kind of the dark web and all the illicit, um, you know, trading that was, that, that is kind of linked to this in the main, you know, headlines, but not, aren't really, um, you know, where the potential of, uh, of cryptocurrency and blockchains lie. So how do you tax it? How do you create a legal framework? Um, what are the AML and CFT, um, protocols that are need to be used?
Roxanne Davies: (16:19)
Um, how do you resolve a dispute? What is a dispute framework going to look like that type of thing needed to be tested? So today I would say they're testing a lot of the blockchain technologies on this. Um, whether and Tamasic is intricately involved in all of this, um, out as are some banks SGX, um, the Singapore exchange, et cetera, and DBS. One of the main banks, I think was one of the first to get the recognized market operator as a legitimate digital asset, um, exchange and broker dealer, so to speak. So you, you know, the licensing component versus given so that they can test, run a few of these to make sure that their, their economy doesn't get negatively impacted by reputation or, or by actual losses. Yeah.
Rachel Pether: (17:09)
And I guess it's, it's quite hard for a regulator to maintain that balance between sufficient, robust regulation and innovation I do, then that's something Singapore has managed to do pretty well on that side. As you say, it has a great reputation. It is an excellent private wealth destination too, so they can't really afford to have any reputational risk damage or any scandal and the, you know, that, that digital asset regulatory space, right.
Roxanne Davies: (17:38)
And then there's the overseas. So how do you connect with others? Um, so they have to also be, um, they're, you know, uh, cognizant of what the us is doing or what Europe is doing and what China's doing. They have to bring all of these features. And so it's an ongoing and say, it's fluid
Rachel Pether: (17:57)
You Alicia, and date. And so now we can move on to the really fun stuff. Uh, you mentioned the, the, the artwork, um, the Japanese artists, and you actually shared an incredibly impressive digital painting with me last month. I think it was. So let's now sort of pivot slightly towards, towards digital art. And where do you see as some of the areas, the greatest areas for growth in the digital asset world, and maybe talk a bit more about the digital art space as well.
Roxanne Davies: (18:31)
The digital art spaces is fascinating. Um, however art in itself can be art. The physical art world has been manipulated for years. So the digital art world, you know, you have to, you definitely need to be careful. Do I think that there is, um, do I understand someone who would buy an initial, um, JPEG of, of the first tweet or of, um, the, the artworks of, of, of people I do get it, it's the first, right. So it's kind of interesting if you're in the collectibles business. It's interesting now you, you know, you can always look at various different perspectives to say, you know, who's, you know, who is actually, um, incentivized to make sure that this is a market that, that, you know, booms and so on and so forth. But again, going back to my children, um, if there was a skin, for example, in one of their games that they could buy and keep for themselves, or there was a limited edition, I believe because most of these are owned still by the game companies.
Roxanne Davies: (19:34)
Um, however, if there was a means to have this owned by themselves so that, you know, they could then play and that either had some super power to it or, or some aesthetic component to it, I do believe that they would go insane over something like that. So, um, so I do see that this as much as, for example, for the older generation, including myself, it's sort of a head-scratcher, um, I do understand how they, um, this generation, the younger generation would value this, um, you know, have value this for the long run, because this is coded in their culture, in their DNA. And Asia, I would say particularly is, um, is incredible with collectibles and especially art. Um, they, they just love that. And, and the Pokemon's of this world, et cetera, they're all. And a lot of the extraordinary games are really, um, you know, uh, created here and played here and then taken very seriously here.
Roxanne Davies: (20:32)
So, you know, the, um, e-sports et cetera, this, this is not a, it's not a hobby, this is a commerce, this is a real industry. So I think that that's and FTE is here to stay that being said, is there going to be manipulation and issues linked to this? Yes. Um, you know, of course this is just the beginning of this world, but if you think about, let's say an Andy Warhol, um, foundation, could they create one image that, you know, that is the original image of a digital, um, you know, iconic, uh, an iconic digital image and then sell it. Sure. Why not? Is it worth it? I don't know.
Rachel Pether: (21:15)
Yes. And maybe, you know, for those on the phone. And I must admit that I am part of the older generation that you mentioned, and B I only know about people because you told me before about it, but for those that are listening, that aren't so familiar with people mania and the people's story. Could you talk us through that and how has, how this gentleman became a bit of an icon, but he's
Roxanne Davies: (21:37)
A digital artist and, and lately, and I think, uh, most of your, um, listeners and users, uh, and viewers would have seen this, it was on financial times as well, recently that there was a Christie's auction of all his visual art, um, over the last 13 years for like $69 million. And, um, he's just a digital artist with a following. And, um, it's, it's kind of interesting when you think about art. And this is more of an art question as in some of the art that he does is not supremely original per se. But for example, my son told me that it's actually not easy to do what he does, right. So is it more complex, do this in a digital way versus in a physical way? So there's a technique component and so on, but it was really a congregation and a collection of digital art by an artist that is, um, well known in the certain, you know, uh, specific digital art, loving world.
Roxanne Davies: (22:37)
And so, um, you know, their, their variety of artists, uh, grinds, who has had a child with Elon Musk, um, a variety of different artists that have created an FTS of some kind, um, to, you know, take advantage of this growing business. And in some cases, I think that they can use them for authentication. Um, for example, Nike is going to be putting this type of chip or some kind of authentication method within their shoes. Um, but in any case, I think that, um, it's a, it's, it's just the beginning of a new world. And the Japanese artists was, it was difficult for him to sell a variety of his art because you, you know, there was a, you had to go there yet to know et cetera, but he found himself on one of the, um, and if T gateways and his art was loved and bought and overnight he became a millionaire.
Rachel Pether: (23:36)
It's amazing, isn't it? How it, I mean, well, there's no such thing as an overnight success, but I do really love the points you made about democratizing art. And I actually just listened to a podcast it's Malcolm Gladwell's revisionist history, and it actually looks at the physical art world. And just how much of that is actually held in storage and not finger pointing at any of the museums, but many of the curators haven't even seen the pictures before, you know, it's just such a closed market. So even some of the great items haven't been on display for years for public to see. So digital ad to me, and just that democratization of the art world is, you know, something quite special that opens it up to everyone. Maybe not everyone can afford, you know, the paintings at the amount that they're going for, but it does seem to standardize the playing field a little bit, but
Roxanne Davies: (24:29)
There's a fractal component to that. And it's a, there's a component for that for real estate or for art that you can buy a piece of it. Um, as opposed to the entire side, I mean, there is something called bit rot. So technically an image will, um, decrease in its in its value and beauty over time. But it's the same thing with physical art. Um, and to your point, this democratisation concept is an interesting one when it comes to the crypto world, because it is intended to democratize, but it isn't really, since it's, you know, a handful of minors, for example, that control, um, you know, Bitcoin and, and can control, for example, certain aspects about when there are releases of certain things and how they can act maybe in advanced or not advanced, I'm not pointing fingers either, but it is certainly not a democracy. And whether the digital art world will then also be somewhat in the control of a few, um, savvy players, so to speak. Um, you know, I, I thought we reached the top of the market when the banana was a scotch taped to the wall. Um, but you know,
Rachel Pether: (25:40)
We always think we've reached the top and then something more ridiculous happens and we realize it wasn't, but it actually does. Just one more point, I would really like to go back to the democratization point, but you also mentioned about Jack Dorsey's first tweet. I believe it was, was optioned for 2.5 million. So he released that as a, as a piece of digital, uh, I mean, it does seem quite toppy, right. Is this, um, or do you think this is, this is just the stat or maybe it was just a well timed release from his side? Well, I believe
Roxanne Davies: (26:20)
There was an article that had talked about it, um, prior to it's really, so I don't know the chicken and the egg story with that one, but I do understand the first of something. Right. Um, and having a tweet from the first tweet from Jack Dorsey, the founder of Twitter and Twitter becoming the phenomenon that it has become. And Jack isn't limited to Twitter, right. He's developed and it's on the board of major companies, but, um, that seems like, I don't know about the actual value of two and a half million. I can't really apply on that. Um, but I do think the first of something like that has its value. Now it can become a historical, um, instrument and historical token over time and saying, oh, this was the first of this type of things. First of I'm the founder of this major social media platform, it can have a historical component to it and it can, you know, it, it can have value. I'm just not sure how it would work in terms of gaining value over time. Yeah,
Rachel Pether: (27:28)
No, that's a great point about the first there's always sort of value in that. And I just let a couple touch on a couple of other points. Um, you know, you mentioned about, is it really democratization because it's still controlled by just a handful of players. I know that always used to be, or was historically quite a bit pushback of cryptocurrencies as it was controlled by a few whales who would manipulate the price, but we've sort of seen that market evolve as more players come in. Do you like, do you think that where we are now and say some of them in FTS and some of the digital art pieces that it's just because we're at quite an early phase in its development and, or do you think that it's, it's always, it would be very hard to democratize a digital outward and in the same way, it's been hard to democratize the physical world. So it's,
Roxanne Davies: (28:24)
Again, the gateways. And I think though the digital art component is a little bit easier because it's really the creator that creates something and that it can be tokenized and then distributed, um, for sale. And so I think that that is actually the easier part to control. Then let's say a Bitcoin that was, you know, subject to very, um, expensive hardware and, um, engineering ability to, to mine these Bitcoins. And then they're part of a community that needs to validate in the proof of work, et cetera. So, so that part of it is, is really, you know, um, and it's like a federal government and the states and their powers, right. So you can kind of think about it in that sense or, um, it's not a democracy, it's just a different type of central bank. Um, and there have been issues linked to, I mean, I have read not an expert, but I have read about for example, software updates that weren't happening or other issues that were blocked by, um, potentially by these minors, um, these very powerful minors.
Roxanne Davies: (29:32)
And, um, some of them may, may or may not have led to the volatility of the price of the, of the cryptocurrency, whether or not we're going see the kind of volatility we did in the beginning to something like Bitcoin, you're going to see volatility, but is it going to go back to out? I just don't know when I would be very surprised, especially because the office of the currency and controller or CCS, um, has basically allowed, regulate, you know, allowed for banks to hold, you know, cryptocurrency. And that's a big change in the framework and the regulatory framework in the United States, because it now has, has basically blessed this as an asset class, but I just volatility will exist. Um, going back to the Hadoop, um, uh, analogy, Hadoop in what it was great for that part is obsolete. So it's very hard for me to understand whether today's Bitcoin blockchain will not become obsolete at a certain point in time.
Roxanne Davies: (30:30)
Does that mean the value of Bitcoin will go down as a result? I don't think so, but I just don't know what I don't know in this situation. And I think that that's a, that's an important part. So you can't as a risk manager, um, increase, um, even if you think something's going up 100%, 300%, 500%, that's hope it's, it's a prediction. It's not a, you don't have any kind of, um, roadmap. And so you have to be careful about how you're implementing those strategies, but I definitely think that we're in a very different world than we were in before.
Rachel Pether: (31:03)
Hmm. I think you're showing your wisdom Roxanne by saying you don't know what you don't know. And it was an interesting point that you raised about the banks. Do I think over two week period, it seemed like every day, one of the new blue chip fortune 500 banks was making an announcement. You know, we had Wells Fargo, Citibank, JP Morgan, Goldman. They're all kind of coming on one by one.
Roxanne Davies: (31:29)
I think you guys announced Charles Schwab as well. And as an alternative, Charles Schwab is, which is a huge, huge firm is smaller than Coinbase, but like it's a third of Coinbase, its size and Coinbase is going for direct listening. And to that point, I believe I read somewhere that there was a, a big whale within Coinbase with whose holdings were linked to Satoshi's holdings and they could be valued at $46 billion. So what would happen in a situation like that? If those became Bitcoin got transferred, it's just, it'll be interesting to watch how that direct listening goes and what happens. But so far there, you know, they are number one in terms of exchanges and the many of the companies treasury have purchased their Bitcoin in the cold wallets, Coinbase is allowed or has.
Rachel Pether: (32:22)
Yeah, I think, I think everyone would just be so excited if it, if it meant that we found out who Satoshi Nakamoto was, they probably wouldn't, they probably wouldn't care. It was, it's been such a long, you know, decade long mystery kind of thing. Um, that I appreciate where, you know, we've, you've given up so much of your time, so generously already, but I would like to ask, you know, you have been investing in FinTech companies, you've been investing in cryptocurrencies, you've been investing in digital assets. What are you most excited about now when you look at the investment opportunities, uh, and the sort of digital world.
Roxanne Davies: (33:03)
Um, so I have actually learned that there is a lot, there are a lot of very interesting, um, developments that I think are amazing. However, where I personally would focus my attention on would be in the financial services sector, because I do understand that world in a granular basis and the family office that I've been working with for the last 15 years understands that at a granular basis. So we would understand the smart contract world that is needed in fund administration or a variety of kind of boring, but yet essential, um, essential, uh, services that, that, that are part of financial services. It wouldn't be, um, a smart move for me to spend my time looking at the altcoins from other industries that I don't have that granular knowledge about. So, so we do rely on our manager network and, and friends that have expertise there to look in that, but there's definitely, um, innovations in a variety of different areas that can help bring transparency and, um, an origin to buyer, um, track, track, um, so to speak or trajectory. So for example, we were looking at, um, trade finance as an asset backed, um, opportunity. So today, if you're sitting in cash or cash made in costume money, so you can give to these trade finance firms and they're backed up by commodities and it's sort of a collateralized or asset backed, um, financial opportunity. And so anything that's in that world, we are interested in and we're looking at, um,
Rachel Pether: (34:40)
Fabulous. There's nothing wrong with boring but necessary. That's for sure. Um, well, I, I just wanted to thank you so much Roxanne for your time today has been such a pleasure speaking to you, and thanks for sharing all your, your knowledge and insights gained from spending so long in a family office and, and then the digital asset world. So thank you so much
Roxanne Davies: (34:59)
For having me Rachel, speak to you soon. Thanks. Bye.