“This crisis is probably the biggest crisis we’ve faced since WWII. If we didn’t have all the technological advancements we had today, the impact of this crisis would’ve been far worse.”
Saleh Romeih serves as the managing partner at SoftBank Investment Advisors and is a member of its investment committee.
The pandemic represents the biggest crisis the world has faced since WWII. The advances in technology have proven critical in navigating the landscape as people and businesses work remotely. The $100 billion SoftBank Vision Fund has seen the importance of its investments play out even more rapidly as demand for technological solutions soars. “We’re at the confluence of all the technological changes taking place and that allows us to play a big role in this revolution.”
Vision Fund 2 will see more smaller investments in earlier stage companies. This will facilitate participation in relatively under-supported regions like East Africa and in fast growing areas like the Middle East. Education technology and health industries represent two investment verticals where rapid growth is set to occur.
LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE
SPEAKER
Saleh Romeih
Managing Partner
SoftBank Investment Advisers
MODERATOR
Anthony Scaramucci
Founder & Managing Partner
SkyBridge
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
John Darsie: (00:07)
Hello everyone, and welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is John Darsie. I'm the managing director of SALT, which is a global thought leadership forum and networking platform at the intersection of finance, technology and public policy. SALT Talks are a digital interview series with leading investors, creators, and thinkers. And our goal on these SALT Talks the same as our goal at our SALT Conferences, which are two guests today, one the moderator, and also our interviewee attended our most recent SALT Conference in Abu Dhabi in 2019, and we had a great pleasure getting to know them there. But our goal there and our goal in these SALT Talks is to provide a window into the mind of subject matter experts, as well as provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future. And we're very excited today, as I mentioned, to welcome Saleh Romeih to SALT Talks moderated by our great friend Noor Sweid.
John Darsie: (01:01)
They're both in Dubai right now, but Saleh serves as the managing partner at SoftBank Investment Advisers as a member of its investment committee. Prior to joining SoftBank Saleh was a managing director at Goldman Sachs as head of securities for the Middle East and North Africa region. Previously he spent 17 years at Deutsche Bank, notably as head of corporate coverage for Asia and head of Central Europe, Middle East and Africa regions for the CIB divisions. He began his banking career in 1989 at BNP Paribas. Saleh serves on the boards of SoftBank Investment Advisers, and Georgetown University's McDonough School of Business. He previously served on the boards of Auto One and Abraaj Capital and Deutsche Bank, Saudi Arabia. We're very grateful. Saleh has accomplished so much in his decorated career that he was able to condense his bio into a nice brief introduction for us. But the hosting today's talk, as I mentioned, is Noor Sweid.
John Darsie: (01:57)
She's a partner at Global Ventures, which is a venture capital firm based in Dubai. And like I mentioned, we had the pleasure of getting to know Noor at our SALT Abu Dhabi Conference in 2019. She appeared on a panel a few months ago regarding health tech that she's investing heavily in the MENA region and beyond. So we're very excited to have her as a moderator here today. But without any further ado, I'm going to turn it over to Noor to conduct the interview.
Noor Sweid: (02:22)
Thank you, John, for the kind intros and welcome, Saleh. It's good to have you here.
Saleh Romeih: (02:28)
Yeah. Thank you for having me. Good to see you too. How time flies.
Noor Sweid: (02:33)
It does, it does. It's been over a year since we were on that panel together in Abu Dhabi, and a year of such significant change around the world. I don't think the world has ever gone through such fluctuation all at the same time. So maybe we start there. Over the last year and what seems so obvious at the beginning of 2020 and what seems so uncertain at beginning of 2020, what kind of impact has this last year had on your business, and how have you seen that really affect the bottom line of some of the companies or the strategy of the firm?
John Darsie: (03:11)
Yeah, well first, Noor, I think it's worth just talking about this crisis, and I think it's fair to say that this crisis is probably the biggest crisis that we've all faced since World War II. And what's interesting about it is, had we not had all the technological advances that we have today, I think the impact of this crisis would have been far worse, right? On multiple facets. If you think of the speed with which we've come up with a vaccine, it's only through the advents in computational biology and genomics that we've been able to develop those. In fact that we're communicating together like this I think is huge as well. And we wouldn't have been able to do this as recently as three, four, five years ago. So I think the first thing to say is that this is a huge crisis, but tech has actually helped us overcome this crisis.
Noor Sweid: (04:09)
And so as you think through that, and I would agree completely, and I think even the ability to work from home is something that 10 years ago would not have presented itself as an opportunity to continue being productive in the workforce, the technology. As you think through kind of the lessons learned or the impact of this crisis, how has that impacted the way that you think about your business and the way that SoftBank either operates or thinks about different areas to invest in, or ways of investing?
John Darsie: (04:39)
Well, the first lesson I think in all of this is that you can never predict crises, right? You can never, that's one thing I've learned throughout my career, having been through a few myself, but you can't predict crisis, but you can certainly prepare for them. And in that regard, Noor, I think in division fund we were inherently prepared because our focus had been on day one on tech. And we were always looking for cutting edge companies. And in general, the dominant player in each of the sectors that we invested in. So inherently we were prepared for this crisis, but certainly when this hit us, it did surprise us. But again, a couple of the principles that we built our business on, for example, and sharing that we were a long-term partner to our portfolio companies and sharing that we had deep pockets to be able to support the companies that deserve it.
John Darsie: (05:35)
We also had an operating group that was 30, 40 strong that helped our companies quickly adapt and weather the first phase of the crisis. So, and as in any crisis, Noor one of the first line of defense is to kind of preserve cash, to kind of batten down the hatches. Our investing teams obviously help steer the boards of our companies. We don't take a majority stakes. We influence through the boards, we influence through our relationship with the CEO and the founder. So that's something we were able to do quite quickly. And what we focused on was obviously to the extent that many of these were consumer facing companies, improving the interface, the consumer experience, the customer user experience by enhancing the front end of a lot of these companies, being able to reach out to the people, and then improving the backend, right?
John Darsie: (06:33)
So, ensuring better cashflow management, managing CapEx, and helping them manage their supply chain, which got disrupted in the first phase of the crisis. All of that was made possible by teams of people that we already had in place. So, had the crisis hit kind of two years earlier, would have been a very different story. But for the most part we were able to, I don't want to use the word benefit, but almost kind of work with the crisis and work with our companies to help survive the first phase. And I think to a large extent our central thesis, Noor, our central thesis that tech is the great enabler has been kind of proven throughout this crisis.
Noor Sweid: (07:19)
And I was about to say that it's almost that your thesis has come to fruition even faster than you anticipated when investing out of Fund One. And so that's really on the portfolio in Fund One and what you've done to support that portfolio and how that's gone. What about Fund Two? So now as you look at Fund Two and I recognize you're raising that and you're in the market with that. What's different> What are you seeing today, and what does that look like? Is it more of the same, or is there an inherent shift towards certain industries and verticals?
John Darsie: (07:53)
Yeah, before we talk about Fund Two, I think it's important to kind of maybe look back on kind of the evolution of Fund One, right? And, we have a four year kind of life. We were set up four years ago, and from the outset, Noor we had our fair share of doubters and naysayers, right? I was involved from the get-go. And I remember at the beginning of our fund, there were people that saying that, "There's no way that you could even put together a 100 billion dollar fund. And then once we had it put together, there were people that said, "Well, you'll never be able to deploy a 100 billion." And then once we deployed that people said, "You'll never be able to generate a return on your capital." And I think each step of the way I think we've kind of proven that this is possible, and this is possible just because we're at the advent or the confluence of all the technological changes that are taking place, which really allows us to play a big role in this evolution.
John Darsie: (08:57)
NASA likes to call it the AI revolution. It kind of encapsulates all of the changes and all of the exciting things that are happening in the tech space, across all the different disciplines and sectors, but essentially, that was our central thesis. And if you take Fund One, and I'll talk about Fund Two, in a second, but if you take Fund One, we've deployed close to 90 billion. And from that 90 billion, we have gains of over 22 billion, we've distributed 15 billion already to our LPs. And we have a portfolio of roughly 90 odd companies. And from that portfolio that we've invested in, we've already generated roughly 13, 14 IPOs.
John Darsie: (09:45)
So, I think, and even in Vision fund One we've seen some validation of our core thesis and our core modus operandi. And that's why when we finished deploying the capital in Vision fund One, we decided to switch to Vision fund Two. The difference being that Vision fund Two for now has only SoftBank Group [inaudible 00:10:08]. And to come back to your question, the key differences is that we're being much more granular in the types of investments that we're making, right? Vision Fund One made some very large investments in some sectors. So for example, in ride sharing, and others we made some very big investments. In the case of Vision Fund Two we're making smaller investments into companies, which allows us to also participate in earlier stage companies as well. So Vision Fund One was almost exclusively focused on 100 to $200 million investments as a minimum into kind of late stage growth companies. Vision Fund Two is in significantly smaller companies. And case in point, we've made 40 investments, 40 investments already in Vision Fund Two.
Noor Sweid: (11:04)
And what's the average size of those investments? And why have you gone earlier?
John Darsie: (11:08)
There are average size we ... Look we've deployed close to like five, $6 billion, right? So you can do your math there. And we have some out sized investments, but we've made investments to the tune of 20, 30, even $50 million. I think that's a reflection of the fact that clearly there's a lot more capital at work now, right? In the past we would lead the rounds. Now we're participating on the cap table alongside our partners. And we're not looking to lead rounds as much as we were before. So I think that's a reflection of the fact that there's a lot more capital out there, but there's no shortage of opportunities. We're certainly seeing plenty.
Noor Sweid: (11:53)
And where are you seeing those, which industries? I mean, we can talk a little bit about digital health, which I think is one that most people are excited about, is that one that you're focused on? Is that one that you like, and what others have kind of become more focused areas of focus for you at this point in time?
John Darsie: (12:11)
Yeah, we focus, Noor on specific sectors that are particularly relevant to the crisis that we're currently going through. So if you look at things like Edtech, E-commerce, entertainment, I think people's behavior has changed fundamentally in this crisis. If you look at the rate at which, for example, people adopted E-commerce. Shifted from offline to online. In the last six months we've made up so much ground that would have otherwise taken us years, I think. So the key theme is around companies that are doing particularly well in this period right now, and certainly, health tech. And as I mentioned, Edtech, E-commerce and others are areas of focus for us.
Noor Sweid: (13:11)
So when you think about those areas, I mean, let's talk maybe a little bit about digital health. So when we think about digital health, and we are very much investors across Middle East and Africa, we recognize that there, per 1,000 people we have 1.3 doctors, whereas Europe potentially has 4.8, right? And so we think of this as an area where we could leapfrog and there could be innovation, and really think about healthcare inclusion the same way people thought about financial inclusion 10 years ago. And even in Edtech, the region across Middle East Africa has 115 million children out of school pre-COVID. So 50% of the world out of school children actually reside in Middle East and Africa. And so these are sectors that I think speak very loudly in the region and that not as an incremental change, it's exponential change, if technologies could be built and scaled here.
Noor Sweid: (14:01)
Do you think about that at all? So do you, when you take a look at the Middle East and Africa, do you think that these are sectors that potentially could have opportunities arising in the region? Or do you think that this region is simply for the adoption of technologies coming in? Where is your head on? Where can innovation arise? Is it really global? Does the region perhaps have an advantage in sectors that are more dire, or not really?
John Darsie: (14:26)
Yeah, I think the way I looked at tech in a very simplistic manner is to view it as the ability to democratize products and services to a broader population. So, you're absolutely right, Noor, when it comes to being able to deliver content or product or whatever it is, doing it online is much more effective than doing it offline. And we are all aware. For example, if you take Africa for example, of the problems that Africa has in terms of logistics, the geographic distances, et cetera, as well as the income levels. But I think if you have an ability to deliver products and services online the way you've described it, through whether it's education, whether it's healthcare, certainly there's a lot to be done in the region. And we've started to see that. I think for Vision Fund, we haven't been as active in the region.
John Darsie: (15:27)
Well, certainly for Vision Fund One, because as I mentioned, our ticket size, our investment size was much bigger than what the region could absorb, but increasingly for Vision Fund Two, we think that the region will present itself with opportunities for us. But certainly, we've seen incredible entrepreneurs and founders in the region trying to address some fundamental problem that the region has. And we're keeping a close eye on those. But the bulk of our activities in the region, and then least to be specific, Noor has been more focused on helping our portfolio companies grow their business into the region.
Noor Sweid: (16:18)
So could you give some examples of that? So which portfolio companies, or which industries, and why is the region important to them? I think occasionally within the region we have question on, is it even an interesting market to founders, and why could it be an interesting market to founders?
John Darsie: (16:36)
Yeah. Well, for one, you've got a very young segment of the population that's digitally connected. We all know that. So, I think the market is definitely there to be able to connect with consumers for different types of products and services. What excites me is the fact that the region has got some very well-established champions, some very large well established, regional, even global companies that are based in the region with very significant activities. You take companies like ADNOC, like Etisalat. You take Aramco, SABIC, just to name a few. These are all companies that are effectively global map multinationals. They're not regional companies, they're not domestic companies. And in the last 10, 20 years, we've seen them kind of evolve into very large companies. And all of those companies are trying to digitize and adopt technology to improve the way they operate.
John Darsie: (17:42)
So a lot of our companies become relevant for them. So we have robotics companies, we have automation companies, we have industry data companies like OSIsoft, for example. Now that that's done really well in the region, helping companies like Aramco, the Telcos in the region improve the way they can process information and their productivity. We have another company called Automation Anywhere, and that's working with the public sector companies, the private sector companies to drive efficiencies and lower costs via automation. Automating kind of the mid-office and the back office functions. That's a big theme. And we have other companies such as SenceTime that's based on facial recognition, working with local companies as well. We have other companies in FinTech that's working to improve supply chain finance, right? So all of these companies I mentioned are multinationals with receivables, with supply chains. There's some very efficient ways to fund those, rather than going through the commercial bank routes. So these are all examples of situations where we're helping the region kind of adapt and change and improve with technology.
Noor Sweid: (19:11)
And so you then are leveraging your partnerships and your presence in the region to bring these companies in? That's a great win-win because it means that the region really accelerates their technology adoption and these companies get access to new markets. So what new partnerships are you forming here?
John Darsie: (19:29)
Yeah, so our aim is to create partnerships and kind of help the local tech ecosystem. And we work with institutions like, of course, the PIF and Mubadala, those are primary institutions we work with, but we also work with ADIO, Hub71. We work with different ministries in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to help set up our companies to create an ecosystem of sorts by bringing our companies to the region. So one thing we do for example is, we facilitate the entry into the region, and because of our network and because of all these institutions that I have set up to help absorb these companies and help them get set up, cut red tape, that's made it much easier. So one is kind of the facilitation role that we play. The second thing we do is we help them network.
John Darsie: (20:27)
We have offices in Riyadh and in Abu Dhabi. And those offices' primary function is to kind of network with the local ecosystem, and introduce them and to kind of almost match make them with partners in the region. So, not only helping them draw up a business plan, but we help them acquire licenses. We find advisors, we help them find people in many cases. So we play that networking role. And then the other thing we do in the region is, together with the management of the companies we obviously monitor the progress of these initiatives and we help preempt them and manage any issues that arise. So all of that is really to deliver on one of the key tenants that we set out at the beginning of the Vision Fund's life, which was, look, the vision fund is the primary means by which PIF and Mubadala can access global cutting-edge tech companies. But at the same time as a by-product of that, we're able to bring some of that technology back into the region.
John Darsie: (21:36)
So it's early days, Noor, but I'm optimistic, given how many companies have started to work with us and the excitement that they've generated. And more importantly, the reception that they've gotten from, the governments of Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi that will make a lot of ground and kind of a lot of success there.
Noor Sweid: (21:58)
Well, it's very exciting. And as I think through as well, the knowledge transfer that happens as these companies start to come into the region and then regional founders start to learn from them, or there's a lot of talent that gets swapped over time. So it really enables the entire ecosystem. It's a rising tide, kind of lifts all boats along with it. So that's very exciting for the region, the regional founders, the regional entrepreneurs as well, what specific verticals are exciting, regional or global? So as you look forward, what are you really excited about? Where do you think there are changes that are happening today that will affect the way that we live 10 years from now, or just two to five years from now? So, what are those industries and verticals that you think are game-changers today?
John Darsie: (22:46)
Well, there's a lot, I mean, in the Vision Fund we focus on multiple sectors, Noor. And I think what this crisis has shown is that it's emphasized some particular sectors, right? Clearly there's some sectors that have suffered as a result of this crisis, but the key ones that have kind of really been highlighted in this crisis, it's for example health tech, as you mentioned. And what's really exciting is, if you look at the advances in computational biology and genomics, that is going to be huge, because that's going to ... I mean, just in terms of the crisis itself, the speed at which we've managed to find these vaccines and to deploy them is largely because of computational biology and genomics, right? Being able to understand the human immune response and being able to model it relies on a huge amount of computation in relies on machine learning.
John Darsie: (23:47)
And that's only been possible right now. So I think we're at the advent right now where we're going to make huge strides in drug discovery and treating encountering pathogens. And that's going to be a huge area. If you look at companies we have in our portfolio, like Garden Health, where we lay therapeutics. All of those are geared towards understanding genomic sequencing and being able to model and use computational biology to be able to speed up either diagnosis, or speed up treatments and therapy. So, I think that's an area that's going to be tremendous. And we're just at the advent of those companies doing really well. So that we're very excited about, but equally we have companies like in Edtech, I have teenage kids, unfortunately they've had to kind of rely on online learning, which is obviously not ideal. But what we're discovering is that Edtech with the technologies in being able to kind of connect and supply and the ability to kind of process what works, what doesn't work, that's uncovering an entirely new area of learning.
John Darsie: (25:15)
So, I don't think it will kind of replace the way people learn necessarily, but certainly it can supplant and enhance the way people learn. So if you look at tutoring, for example, or after-school lessons or whatever it is, if you can do it online it saves time on commuting. It reduces the cost. So again, it democratizes the way people can access these. So I think there's going to be a lot of advance made in areas that were just starting to see opening up because of this crisis, and because so many people have kind of shifted from offline to online.
Noor Sweid: (25:57)
Right. So, let me ask you one question on each of those industries and maybe Saleh's view, not the house view, if you like. So on digital health, do we use that data, like do clinics become the new data aggregators and the new data centers? And do we use that genomics data to move towards a world where prevention is much more doable and really can we take that data and harness it, so that based on your genomic sequencing, you can be given certain preventative measures until the healthier life? That's one. And what are you doing at SoftBank or, Saleh, to enable that? And then on the Edtech side, do we move from a knowledge-based education system to a skill based education system?
John Darsie: (26:46)
Okay, well, let's start with Edtech, it's hard to say which way education is going to go. I think people are really ... Let's first of all, let's hope that this crisis doesn't last too long. But when people do go back to the classrooms, I think there are going to be some fundamental question that's going to be asked about, how and what education should be delivered? And my view is that it's going to be a combination of in-class kind of learning and out of class online learning. A little bit about a little bit the way I think the future works now, Noor. I think when it comes to work, historically everybody commuted into work, and that was obviously a very inefficient way of people trying to get together. Now we can digitize that people can get over Zoom and other ways.
John Darsie: (27:47)
I think so as a result, I think at work people are going to use a combination of being in-person in the office, and being able to communicate the way you and I are communicating, Noor. I myself, I used to have to fly across continents for one or two meetings. Not only is that bad for the environment, but it's also very inefficient use of one's time. So I think we're going to probably find a combination of kind of online and offline when it comes to things like education as well. And with regards to your question whether it's going to be knowledge-based or people focusing more on vocations or technology, that remains to be seen. But certainly we're seeing a number of our portfolio companies focusing on the ladder and focusing on allowing people to improve their skillset or to be able to kind of upscale their skills through online classes. We're seeing that as well.
Noor Sweid: (28:56)
So, SPAC seemed to be massively trending. They are not something new they've been around for a long time, but it seemed to have the heat turned up under them. What are your thoughts on SPAC? Is it a fad? Is it something that will continue on this accelerated curve, positive, negative? You know, what are your views?
John Darsie: (29:17)
Well, first I think, Noor, SPACs or the proliferation of SPACs is I think just the reflection of the amount of liquidity that's out there, right? So it's just another form of another pool of liquidity that's out there. You know, I won't delve into the reasons as to why we have that much liquidity, but clearly the government policies have all been towards easing the lowering of interest rates move. There's a lot of money seeking a home, that is natural. For us however, SPACs is a means to expand our reach, right? If you look at kind of the different stages of companies we invest in, there is a segment of companies that are prone or appropriate for SPACs. And those are ones that kind of sit in between kind of late stage and IPO, right? So, that around the pre-IPO stage of companies.
John Darsie: (30:15)
So for us, our involvement in SPACs is simply to be able to broaden and to be able to target companies that specifically seek to IPO via SPAC. And I think we're well positioned for that, just because of the network we've created in our ability to source deals, right? The fact that we're able to deploy so much capital in so many companies is a reflection of our network that we're able to see a lot of opportunities. So it's not that we rely on the liquidity coming in to SPACs for us to invest. We have sufficient capital, right? Capital is not the issue for us. It's really our ability to target companies that are kind of prone or appropriate for SPACs. That's been kind of the philosophy behind that.
Noor Sweid: (31:12)
Right, thank you.
John Darsie: (31:15)
So it's really if you like a bridge between a private and public investment, simply put.
Noor Sweid: (31:21)
It is I, and I think that's exactly what it is. It's a bridge, right? And I think as one market boomed then the other kind of stalled for a little while. The question was, how do we bridge this? So before we wrap up, I have one final question for you. So if you were not doing what you are doing now, if you weren't in this current role and position, what company might you start? What challenge might you address? What problem might you try to solve in this world?
John Darsie: (31:46)
Yeah, I haven't worked in the Vision Fund for the last four years, Noor. I'd like to be able to continue to make an impact. And in so far as making an impact, right now, obviously the world is grappling with this crisis, and hopefully the world comes together to solve it. Certainly the initial phases of vaccines seems to be kind of tempering the spread of this disease. And hopefully we get to a place where we can manage this crisis, and that's not too far out in the distant future. But once that is contained and managed, I think the world is also facing another looming problem, which is the environment and the way we've been damaging the environment through greenhouse gases and pollution. So one area which excites me a lot is the advents in clean tech. We're at a conference right now where solar panel, technology, battery technology, other forms of storage, that's all coming together. We have the conference of that.
John Darsie: (33:03)
A lot of countries are now forcing people to give up combustion engines for their cars, switching to EVs. I think that's a very exciting area, because ultimately we have to change something to be able to manage this before it becomes a crisis that becomes much more difficult to control. The world is only going up in terms of population, in terms of spending power. So consumption generally is going to keep rising. So unless we find more efficient needs to fuel that consumption, I don't think the world is headed to a good place. So clean tech is a very exciting area right now, and that's probably an area that I would like to get involved in. And certainly that would be very impactful.
Noor Sweid: (34:06)
Thank you. Thank you, Saleh, for those insights. And thank you so much for your time and for answering all these questions. John, thank you for having us.
John Darsie: (34:14)
Thank you so much for doing this. We enjoy, like I said, getting to know you guys as part of the SALT's Abu Dhabi Conference and wish we could have been back in Dubai and in Abu Dhabi recently, but obviously the COVID pandemic has prevented us from traveling. But we look forward to hosting conferences again in the region, in the UAE, in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and other places that Saleh and Noor you guys are both very active. So we look forward to seeing you in-person soon. But until then we'll have to make do over Zoom and it's been a pleasure to catch up with you guys here today.
Noor Sweid: (34:48)
Thank you.
Saleh Romeih: (34:48)
Thanks so much for having me. Thank you, Noor. Thank you, John.
Noor Sweid: (34:51)
Thank you.
John Darsie: (34:52)
Thank you. And thank you everybody who tuned into today's SALT Talk with Saleh Romeih of SoftBank hosted by Noor Sweid of Global Ventures.
John Darsie: (35:00)
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