“Right now, there is now reason to leave the United States. As an investor, there is nothing more secure than the rule of law.”
Sam Zell is the Founder & Chairman of Equity Group Investments, a private investment firm that invests in real estate markets. He is also the Chairman of four NYSE-listed companies: Equity Residential, Equity Lifestyle Properties, Equity Commonwealth and Covanta Holding Corporation.
“Things are looking better than they did three months ago, but not good enough to be optimistic.” Sam anticipates a U-shaped recovery, at least until a vaccine arrives, while noting that the pandemic has acted as an accelerant to the themes that have begun changing the economy. That said, fossil fuels are likely not going away.
Working from home may become far more common, with workers going into the office three to four times per week. However, “businesses need to create contact between people to be successful; that’s what office space provides.”
LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE
SPEAKER
Sam Zell
Chairman
Equity Group Investments
MODERATOR
Anthony Scaramucci
Founder & Managing Partner
SkyBridge
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
John Darsie.: (00:08)
Hello, everyone and welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is John Darsie. I'm the managing director of SALT, which is a global thought leadership forum at the intersection of finance, technology and public policy. We've been doing these SALT Talks in lieu of our in person conferences in order to replicate the experience that you get at those conferences. We really try to provide a window into the minds of subject matter experts and also provide a platform for big important world changing ideas.
John Darsie.: (00:37)
Today, we're very excited to welcome Sam Zell to SALT Talks. Sam is a global industry agnostic entrepreneur and investor. He has a long track record of turning around troubled companies and assets, leading industry consolidations and bringing companies to the public markets. His current investments are focused in energy, logistics, manufacturing, communications, healthcare and real estate. Sam is the chairman of equity group investments. The private investment firm he founded more than 45 years ago.
John Darsie.: (01:07)
He also chairs for companies listed on the New York Stock Exchange. Those are equity residential, leading apartment REIT, Equity Lifestyle Properties, a manufactured home community and resort REIT, Equity Commonwealth and office REIT and Covanta Holding Corporation. An international owner and operator of energy from waste and power generation facilities. He just recently sold Anixter International Incorporated, a company he chaired for 35 years for four and a half billion dollars.
John Darsie.: (01:37)
Sam is best known for his role in founding the modern real estate industry. He founded and chaired Equity Office Properties Trust, the largest office REIT until 2007, which he sold for 39 billion in the largest leveraged buyout at the time. In addition, he introduced the first Brazilian and Mexican real estate companies respectively, to the New York Stock Exchange through Equity International. A second private investment firm he founded to focus on real estate related businesses in emerging markets.
John Darsie.: (02:05)
Sam is an active philanthropist with a focus on entrepreneurial education and sponsors three leading Programs at the University of Michigan's Ross School of Business, Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Business and Management and the Interdisciplinary Center Herzliya IDC in Israel. The Zeal Global Entrepreneur Network, ZGEN, unites the students and alumni of these programs and actively provides them with connections, opportunities, mentorship and support. Sam also sponsors the Sam Zell, Robert Lurie Real Estate Center at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton Real Estate Center.
John Darsie.: (02:41)
He holds a JD degree and a BA from the University of Michigan. So it's fair to say he's a Michigan man. Sam represents the REIT industry on the New York Stock Exchange wall of innovators. He was recognized in 2017 by Forbes as one of the hundred greatest living business minds. In 2017 Sam debuted his book, Am I Being Too Subtle?, which was published by Penguin Random House, in which he shares fundamentals and philosophies that made him a self made billionaire.
John Darsie.: (03:10)
Interviewing Sam today is going to be Anthony Scaramucci. It's not the first time Anthony and Sam have had a conversation with SALT. Sam has been to several of our SAlT conferences. So we thank him for joining us for this digital version. Anthony is the Founder and Managing Partner of SkyBridge Capital, which is a global alternative investment firm, as well as the chairman of SALT. And just a reminder, if you have any questions today for Sam, type them in the Q&A box in the chat window at the bottom of your video screen. And with that, I'll turn it over to Anthony.
Anthony Scaramucci: (03:41)
Great. John, thank you. Sam, thanks so much for being on with us today. I just want to point out, there was no sarcasm in the title of the book, Am I Being Too Subtle? Sam could never be subtle enough as everyone knows about Sam Zell. But if you have not read that book, I encourage you to read that book. I have send that book out Sam to hundreds of people. I made my oldest son who I think you met, we had breakfast with him one morning, just graduated from Stanford Business School. He loved the book, gave it out to about another hundred of his fellow students.
Anthony Scaramucci: (04:15)
So please read that book, Am I Being Too Subtle? And since you are never subtle Sam, that is the absolute truth. Let's get right into it. How do you view the economy, the economic landscape, in the shadow of the pandemic, where are we going? What do we need to be worried about sir?
Sam Zell: (04:35)
Well, first of all, Anthony if I knew the answer to that I'd be rich.
Anthony Scaramucci: (04:40)
Richer, richer.
Sam Zell: (04:41)
All I can have is an opinion. I think that most people have overcome the idea that we're going to have a V kind of recovery. And I think that's probably a valid assumption. I think that the way things look today, I think they're better than they looked three months ago, but, not any reason for object optimism. I think probably, something like a U shaped recovery. I think we'll see some significant recovery between now and the end of the year. I wouldn't be surprised if unemployment at the end of the year where 10% or lower. Now normally you'd say 10% is a recession, maybe, maybe not.
Sam Zell: (05:49)
I do think however that, once we get past this pandemic, I think our ability to recover will be significant. I think it's important in line with that thinking, at least from my perspective, when I look at the pandemic, and everybody is talking about a vaccine, which I'm hopeful we'll have a vaccine. But, it's hard for me to imagine that we can have a vaccine anytime in the next year and a half or two years, that was in my opinion, probably be the shortest time, where that could be determined. But I don't think we need a vaccine in order for our country and the world to go back to business.
Sam Zell: (06:45)
I think we need to eliminate the concept of death as one of the results of this virus. You mentioned that, before when we were talking about Mike Milken and I, talked to Michael recently and he's been working on a drug that was used in prostate cancer, which suppresses testosterone, which seems to suppress the connection to the lung of this pandemic. Maybe that's a solution. Maybe the guys in Oxford will come up with something. Maybe there'll be a cocktail, but once we "get death out of the equation" and it becomes a flu, maybe a more stringent flu than what we've been expected. I think go see our country quickly begin to recover.
Anthony Scaramucci: (07:48)
You think the capital markets, Sam, or price right for that recovery, or are they ahead of themselves? What parts of the capital markets may be behind where things are? When you look at the landscape of the credit and equity capital markets, what's your opinion there?
Sam Zell: (08:06)
Well, my view before the pandemic was that the capital markets were very expensive. My view when it took its dive, was that we were having a correction. When it recovered as much as it did, I thought that the capital markets were getting over heated again. At the moment, in a general term, I think the capital markets are too willing to assume, what I call good news or too desperate for good news. And therefore, I think that the capital markets generally are probably too optimistic. Certainly the debt markets have been wide open and we've finance the staggering amount of stuff in the last three or four months.
Sam Zell: (09:09)
Obviously the FED has in his facilitated that. But I think it's still a little too optimistic. On the equity side, we still have a bifurcation between value and grow. And I thought before the pandemic that, that bifurcation was too great and nothing has changed in my opinion.
Anthony Scaramucci: (09:33)
When you look at the, what some people are calling residual permanency. So meaning we've had lost economic output. And now there may be some permanency, meaning that local restaurant on your local main street is now closed. It can't reopen, or that store is closed, or J. C. Penney is in bankruptcy and we'll have to see what happens. But Pier 1 Imports went into bankruptcy and they've vacated their store. So when you see that residual permanency piece, does that make you worry, sir? Does that make it harder for us to recover or do you think that the economy is so adaptive that those resources and labor and all the different things that went into those businesses will recirculate in to other places quickly?
Sam Zell: (10:21)
Well, I think that I hardly could be surprised at what has actually happened. I mean, if I interviewed a bunch of people last December and asked them about what their view of J. C. Penney was, maybe they wouldn't have predicted a bankruptcy as quickly as there was one. But there weren't any optimists in the room for J. C. Penney. Probably similarly to Neiman Marcus. We have been overly retailed up for many years. We've been in the process of adjusting to it. I think the pandemic acted as an accelerant to the strategy or to the themes that were already in process.
Sam Zell: (11:18)
Even your example of the restaurants. You look at the statistics, the number of restaurants created in the last four or five years, sets an all time record for new openings. And my own view was then as it is today that, there just isn't enough demand to support that many facilities and obviously the pandemic and the closing subsequent has brought that to the forefront.
Sam Zell: (11:50)
I think there's a lot of retail establishment that will not open. But I would also tell you that America is a great place and it's full of people who have ideas. And maybe they won't be willing to rent the stores at the same rates as previously, but they're going to want to rent the stores. They're going to want to try out their ideas. And I don't think entrepreneurship is that.
Anthony Scaramucci: (12:23)
That's a good transition to my next question related to the consumer. So you've got some of those vacancies and you and I agree entrepreneurs will eventually fill those vacancies. In some ways the economy would become even more dynamic, but the consumer seems to be impaired right now. If you look at the savings rate that was tallied a few weeks ago, [inaudible 00:12:42] was at 33% historic high and people are concerned and people have either lost jobs or lost some pay. Are you worried about that impairment to the economy in terms of it causing a more meaningful longer lasting contraction? Or do you think that will stop once we start stop fearing the health scare?
Sam Zell: (13:05)
Yeah, I think that at the early stages of that health scare, people were using the term depression. I don't think that that was relevant then, and I don't think that's relevant today. Are we going to have a recession? I think we already have a recession going on. Although I don't think it's going to be anywhere as deep as a lot of the [inaudible 00:13:37] have suggested. I think that, just what you've seen in the last few weeks has been some partial opening, various places around the country. The results have been, people have been willing to spend. And in fact, seem to be very excited about the opportunity to get back into the commerce side of the world.
Anthony Scaramucci: (14:03)
Just a few more questions there on the macro economy. So your analysis of the stimulus, both the fiscal stimulus and what's being put into the capital markets by the federal reserve, what is your reaction to that? Is it a mama bear stimulus? Is it too much? Is it too little? What's your bit?
Sam Zell: (14:22)
Well, I think the best way to answer your question, Anthony is to compare it to the stimulus of 08. The famous Nancy Pelosi stimulus bill. Which I think was basically focused stuff on adding time climbing, adding to existing programs without really focusing on what the objective was. This stimulus, I think, Mr [Minuchi 00:14:53] deserves the credit. That it was focused. It was basically bridge financing to get us over the 90 to 120 day period that we were anticipating. We were going to see the country closed or partially closed.
Sam Zell: (15:13)
And I think they succeeded in doing that. I think that, a lot of people are probably relatively surprised at how well we're doing today, considering what we've been through. Obviously, Mr. Powell deserves similar accolades for very actively and aggressively making sure that the existing economy was not destroyed by the "shutdown."
Anthony Scaramucci: (15:49)
Okay. So I want to ask you about investing. I'm going to switch gears a little bit. You seem to have backed the truck up in energy, at a time where supply is up and demand is down. And so you are a great contrary and investor by nature. What are you seeing in that space that other people are not seeing?
Sam Zell: (16:09)
Well, first of all, you got to ask me that question five years from now. And maybe five years from now, we can both either cry or laugh together. It's way too early to reach any conclusions. I've always been fascinated by arenas where capital becomes very scarce. Despite the fact that there's nobody disputing the fact that there's more capital floating around the world today. And then at any time, anybody can remember. If you're in the oil patch today, there ain't no capital floating around. And so, I was intrigued and attracted by the fact that the kinds of yields that were available and the kinds of situations that were available would have been very rare by historic standards.
Sam Zell: (17:12)
Our involvement in energy has been hardly bet the truck up, but certainly we've been more aggressive than most people. We had a hiccup when the price of oil fell through the elevator shaft. But that was really a short term scenario that was unlikely to be repeated going forward. And we've seen a pretty significant recovery since then and pretty much stable in that arena. Natural gas today, except for 11%, it seems like it had been beaten down well beyond any rational scenario. And so, fossil fuels are not going away. The pricing of fossil fuels are not going to be prohibitive going forward. And I think it's likely that the investments we've made during this period, should produce significant returns.
Anthony Scaramucci: (18:23)
So it's sort of a related contrarian play. So I'm just interested in your reaction, given your real estate expertise. There's a lot of bears in the commercial mortgage backed security space, very similar to the energy. To your point about capital leaving certain areas of the market. Are you a contrary in there as well, and think that there's representative of good value there? Or do you think that the consensus is correct in commercial mortgage back real estate?
Sam Zell: (18:54)
Well, I think that referring to it as commercial backed real estate is probably [crosstalk 00:19:02].
Anthony Scaramucci: (19:02)
Well, CMBS, Commercial mortgage-backed security.
Sam Zell: (19:04)
No, I know. But in other words, but if you look at where the real focus of CMBS has been, it's been in retail. There's much more retail in CMBS than there is residential or anything else.
Anthony Scaramucci: (19:19)
Yep. Or commercial office buildings for that matter.
Sam Zell: (19:22)
Yeah. There's office, but it's primarily retail. Which by the way, as far as I'm concerned is still very much of a falling knife. And when you package things together, as CMBS does, you end up with, you might have a good mall and four bad ones, and that just drags down the whole scenario. And in a sense capital fleeing, and that's basically what's happened. And I wouldn't be very confident that those people who have stepped up and taken advantage of the CMBS market are likely to end up with a very high positive results.
Anthony Scaramucci: (20:10)
Okay. Makes sense. So, so let's switch over to office space then. What's your opinion of office space in both the suburban markets and the 24/7 cities?
Sam Zell: (20:24)
There's been a lot of discussion about the 24/7 cities. People have talked about it as though as a passing phase. I totally disagree with that. I think the 24/7 cities will suffer somewhat, but they're not going away. People are not going to move to [inaudible 00:20:47] Iowa from New York city just because they can remotely connect to their job. We're social animals. We want to work together. Nobody's figured out a way to motivate by modem. We've done very well by operating office space and businesses remotely.
Sam Zell: (21:13)
But it's very important to remember that we've done so. Because we're operating with a bunch of people that we know that we trust and that we have expectations. If it were five years from now and there had been a 25% turnover in people working, we would be sitting here trying to do a remote problem, not really knowing or trusting the people at the other end of the phone or at the end of the Zoom.
Sam Zell: (21:44)
And so, when it's all said and done, we may end up with a scenario of four days a week. We may end up with a scenario of a lack of concern about working from home for a day. But when it's all said and done, if you want to run a business and you want to be successful, you need to create contact between the people. And that's what office space provides. Now, having said all of that, even before the virus, I believe that we had a significant oversupply of office space in America. We didn't see it because we had assets. Like we work, taking up space like there was no tomorrow because they didn't intend on paying tomorrow.
Sam Zell: (22:38)
But they took up a lot of space and in effect, created an environment where people didn't understand that we're building a lot of stuff. Lot of new buildings, Hudson yards. And it's Hudson yards is 14 million square feet. There's another 5 million adjacent to it. And Steve Rob has got a giant project above Penn Central Station. That's a lot of space. We have a similar situation in Chicago, where we've had four or five new office buildings, they've emptied out, the old buildings. And we don't have tenants for those old buildings. So I think the office space business is likely to suffer from over supply. But in an oversupply similar to previous periods of over supply, as opposed to something dramatic, like everybody working from home,
Anthony Scaramucci: (23:41)
Let's switch gears for a second. I'm going to let John ask a question in a second, but I want to ask you about hospitality before we go to the outside questions, Sam. What are your thoughts there and its potential recovery?
Sam Zell: (23:55)
Well, I don't own any hotels. Thank God. If I did, I would be slitting my wrist because in effect, [crosstalk 00:24:07].
Anthony Scaramucci: (24:07)
It's very subtle. It's very subtle, Sam. It's a very subtle [crosstalk 00:24:11].
Sam Zell: (24:10)
Yeah. To go from 70% occupancy to zero gets your attention. And the answer is, the hotels are going to slowly open, occupancy is slowly going to increase. But it belies one of the big issues that I have been focused on since the pandemic began and the shutdowns began. And that is, everybody's talking about the cost of having your building closed down. Nobody's talking about the cost of reopening. And those are very significant. And even in the best hotels across the United States, they're going to open at 5% and then they're going to go to 10 and they're going to go to 12 and they're going to go to 15 when meanwhile losing their ass.
Sam Zell: (25:07)
So I think it's gonna be a tough environment. I don't believe that this is going to end the "convention business" or the use of hotels to make deals. I think with, and I've heard a lot of people say, "God, with the experience we're having right now. I don't know why we ever put anybody on the road." Well, I would expect that as it starts, there will be reticence of people to go on the road. And they'll say, "Well, just zoom it out." And that's what will happen until some young aggressive guy gets on a plane, goes and gets the deal done while you're sitting on Zoom selling an idea.
Sam Zell: (25:54)
So I don't think we have any significant change. We had, again, just like office space, we had an oversupply in the hotel business already in place before the pandemic. And the result is, this going to be a significant number of hotels that are not going to reopen. But I would bet that they would have not reopened except maybe a year or two later than what's going to happen now. So I think the hospitality business is not going anywhere. I think people like Marriott, Hyatt and Hilton are going to get home to be more dominant and stronger, as the world reopens.
Anthony Scaramucci: (26:43)
All right. Terrific commentary as usual, Sam. I'm going to turn it over to John for some outside questions and then I'll feather some more back in.
John Darsie.: (26:52)
Thank you. We have great participation on the call and a lot of audience engagement. So, thank you everyone who's listening for that. Now the first question is about one of your REITs. EQC has been sitting on about 4 billion in cash for several years in anticipation of a downturn, which is what we're now seeing. What will you target in terms of sectors, geographies, and where in the capital stack are you going to be looking to take advantage of some of that distress?
Sam Zell: (27:18)
Well, first of all, the answer is, it's got about 3.4 billion in cash. We took it over five years ago and we've sold 150 assets during that period of time and assembled the $3.4 billion. I might add that, it's very unusual. We sold 150 assets and we don't have one regret, so far. We don't buy markets, we buy deals. And I think that the capital is going to be used to respond to specific situations. I can tell you, it's unlikely that we'll get involved in retail.
Sam Zell: (28:11)
Aside from that, I think we will be involved and we will start to expend that capital. And by the way, I don't expect anything to happen for another three or four months. But I expect we will begin to spend the capital, as we deal with other landlords and other owners of real estate, who in one form or another survive this far. Maybe through pretend and extend. But, the game is ending.
Sam Zell: (28:47)
And I think the lending community, whereas in 08, or 09 was afraid to do anything and therefore did a pretending to extend, I think the lending community this time around, very much wants to "clean the books." And I think there are going to be a lot of foreclosures and opportunities.
John Darsie.: (29:14)
Thank you for that Sam. You mentioned on CNBC a little while back that you were buying gold for the first time. What attracted you finally to gold? Are you still buying it? What's your outlook for gold and silver?
Sam Zell: (29:27)
The only thing I bought is gold. And I continue to buy gold, not in staggering proportions, but making it a part of my diversification. And it's very much a response to the debasing of currencies on a worldwide basis. It's not just the United States that's had QE2 and 3 and 4. But it's everywhere in the world. And, so far, we haven't had any inflation because everybody is doing it at the same time. But there's little doubt in my mind that this is not going to be like that forever. And I think that a prudent investor would have some proportion of his assets in the metal gold.
John Darsie.: (30:33)
Outside of real estate and gold, as you just mentioned, are there any other industries or specific types of deals that you're looking at that you think present tremendous opportunity in this distress cycle?
Sam Zell: (30:45)
Well, we've spent a lot of our time in the distribution end of the world. And they've done very well through the pandemic, which is really interesting. And consequently, and distribution is another way of talking about it as the asset light. And I think that, we're intrigued and interested in business opportunities that are asset light as opposed to other times, when our whole orientation has been just the opposite.
John Darsie.: (31:30)
Fantastic. So there's a question relating to, you mentioned the troublesome environment for office buildings in general, and there are some questions about how those office buildings can potentially be repurposed. So could old office buildings needing major improvements in large cities with large homeless populations. Could we eliminate laws that mandate or eliminate a single room occupancy from allowable use, should those laws be revived and maybe including provisions for jobs and other social assistance programs for those office spaces?
Sam Zell: (32:07)
Well, it's hard for me to imagine that you're going to turn an office building on third Avenue into an SRL. In the same manner, as it's hard to imagine that you're going to turn an office building on LaSalle street into an SRL. I also think that you're talking about rather globally, but the economic cost of trying to do what you're talking about doing is pretty staggering. So although it sounds good and I'm all for [inaudible 00:32:51], the answer is that I doubt. And, yes, there will be some office buildings somewhere that are created and used to solve the homeless problem, but you ain't going to say solve the homeless problem without building housing. Or converting some assets to housing. But converting an old office building to housing is a staggeringly expensive scenario.
Sam Zell: (33:21)
I've been to the movie and I know. So, I just think that when it's all said and done, what they've been trying to do in California for the last three or four years, which is increased density. In particularly in transit corridors, that's what's got to be done across the country in order to generate the kind of housing we need to solve what is a significant problem. Obviously it's been held back in California and everywhere else in the country by the NIMBY scenario or not my backyard. I think that, as a population and as a country, we're going to have to come to grips with the fact that we can't allow NIMBY to determine the future of our country. And have the kind of impact that it's had today.
John Darsie.: (34:21)
We have several questions about your process of an investor and how it applies in this scenario. So I'm going to merge them into one. You made a lot of money after the savings and loan crisis. You basically predicted the 2008 crisis. You sold, had a record sale of your business prior to the 2008 crisis. What is the indicator in your mind that tells you when to take risk off and what's the indicator or indicators that tell you it's time to put capital to work. And then how do you compare the opportunity set in this current crisis as it relates to the savings and loan crisis in the 2008 crisis?
Sam Zell: (35:01)
Well, I think that it starts with the fact that today, we just don't know where we are. The number of transactions that have occurred are minuscule, price discovery is miniscule. In the past, it's been very easy. In the post-saving zone crisis arena, making investments was, in my opinion as simple as it's ever been. It basically revolved around replacement cost. I was buying office buildings all across the United States in 91 and 90 and 92 and 93 and buying apartments. And all of those assets were basically sold to me at significantly less than it costs to replace them. That meant that longterm, I was protected from competition by virtue of the price at which I had bought. At this moment, we have a tremendous disparity between the bid and the ask.
Sam Zell: (36:16)
I think that the current owners of real estate basically think or take the position that nothing has really changed. There's been a three or a six month gap while everybody sits back. And as soon as it's over, we're going to go back to 3% yields on office buildings and apartments [inaudible 00:36:42] et cetera. The other end of the coin, are buyers who are sitting there saying, "Wait a minute, we've had a major, major event that has occurred, that has changed everything forever." And it's got to change cap rates, it's got to change risk, it's got to change everything. And therefore, what I was willing to pay six months ago, I'm not even willing to pay a take a cap rate double, and maybe it should be even more than that.
Sam Zell: (37:18)
This kind of disparity, frankly, is not unusual. And that's why we have something called price discovery. And price discovery in effect comes about as a result of multiple transactions. We are a long way from having any multiple transactions. And that's why I think we won't really know till the third and fourth quarter or this year, what the impact on real estate is going to be.
John Darsie.: (37:47)
Thank you for that. In terms of looking geographically a little bit, you talked about how you don't buy markets, you buy individual deals. But as you look around the world, the economic pain, there's been some dispersions between the economic pain in various countries. What's your view, generally on international markets, specifically emerging market?
Sam Zell: (38:07)
There have been times when emerging markets have been very attractive. And at the moment, I believe that there's no reason to leave the United States. And that when it's all said and done, as an investor, there is nothing more secure than the rule of law. So I think the United States represents the strongest and the best marker in the world to take advantage of the post-pandemic period.
John Darsie.: (38:46)
Within the United States, are you focused on any particular types of markets? The question is relating to whether you think States with no state income taxes and more business friendly environments are set to continue to grow a lot more quickly than say at places like New York, San Francisco with a high tax frameworks.
Sam Zell: (39:07)
Again, I think you got to be really careful not to make too broad, a series of assumptions. Before the pandemic, two most expensive markets in the country were New York and San Francisco, both of which did not seem to suffer very much from being very expensive. In the same manner, Florida is everybody's favorite place to retire to. And the problem is that retirees don't rent a lot of office space and they don't create new businesses. So Florida may be a great place to retire to. I'm not sure it's ever proven to be a great investment horizon other than, if you're providing housing, or if you're providing entertainment.
Anthony Scaramucci: (40:07)
So Sam and I want to know, John, what the monkey behind you is reading. Okay. Now I don't know if Sam can actually see the monkey behind you, but we're not washed. So we're looking at that thing saying, "What is that exactly." So what is the monkey reading Darsie?
John Darsie.: (40:26)
Maybe I'll save it for the ultra premium SALT Talks that we have. Maybe I'll share it on the next call.
Anthony Scaramucci: (40:35)
It's unbelievable Mr. Zell that he would actually put that in the [raider 00:40:39] shop. But it's fine. Sam, you don't set out those musical boxes anymore, but one of your friends is texting me and they're asking, what would the song be this year? If you were sending out those musical boxes?
Sam Zell: (40:56)
I don't know. Probably something about the fact that it ain't over yet.
Anthony Scaramucci: (41:07)
Yeah. See, I'm a Sinatra fan. So I would say the best is yet to come.
Sam Zell: (41:12)
Right.
Anthony Scaramucci: (41:13)
Well, you've been absolutely terrific as usual. We're very, very blessed to have you as a friend. And, you had asked me a question about the live SALT conferences. And so, yes, we're hoping to get that back up and running as soon as we think it's safe to do. And hopefully we can blend in these virtual conferences. Mr. Darsie, do you have any final remarks before we let Sam go?
John Darsie.: (41:35)
No, what I'll say is, thanks a lot to the audience for your engagement on this. I know we didn't get to every question. Sam, you're a popular guy and people want to know what you're thinking because of your [inaudible 00:41:44] around every other crisis that we've seen in your lifetime. So thanks so much for joining us. Maybe we'll have to have you on again as a followup to this conversation. And of course, we look forward to having you at our next live SALT conferences as Anthony said.
Sam Zell: (41:58)
My pleasure. Thank you. And be safe.
Anthony Scaramucci: (42:02)
All the best. Thanks Sam.
John Darsie.: (42:05)
And again, thanks for joining today's call with Sam Zell. We'll see you later in the week.