S1 | Real Estate

Land Economics & Taxation | SALT Talks #219

“It’s really dangerous in the long run for a society to have land and housing- essential stuff- traded as commodities… There’s a limit to how much private property and market fundamentals can be allowed to drive human evolution and evolution of the whole planet.”

Kathryn Lincoln’s grandfather John C. Lincoln, industrialist and philanthropist, founded the Lincoln Institute of Land Policy 75 years ago. The non-profit was created around the ideas of famous 19th/20th century political economist Henry George, author of the hugely popular book Progress and Poverty (1879). Dr. George “Mac” McCarthy explains the dangers of treating land and housing, essential things, as commodities. The free market around land use does not create responsible long-term incentives and has played a major role in creating the climate crisis we see today. Mac notes the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) estimates there will be 150 million climate refugees by the year 2050. A land tax is seen as the most effective solution to building equality across society while also addressing climate change.

The Lincoln Institute of Land Policy seeks to improve quality of life through the effective use, taxation, and stewardship of land. A nonprofit private operating foundation whose origins date to 1946, the Lincoln Institute researches and recommends creative approaches to land as a solution to economic, social, and environmental challenges. Through education, training, publications, and events, they integrate theory and practice to inform public policy decisions worldwide.

LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE

SPEAKERS

Kathryn Lincoln.jpeg

Kathryn Lincoln

Board Chair & Chief Investment Officer

Lincoln Institute of Land Policy

George W. McCarthy.jpeg

George W. McCarthy

President & Chief Executive Officer

Lincoln Institute of Land Policy

TIMESTAMPS

0:00 - Intro

3:17 - History of Lincoln Institute of Land Policy

7:00 - Henry George’s findings around private property and poverty

11:30 - How John C. Lincoln would view current land policy

13:13 - Dangers of treating land and housing as a commodity

17:32 - Land policy changes and advocacy

20:20 - Climate change effects and potential solutions

28:55 - Addressing poverty and inequality through land policy

39:08 - The case for a land tax

43:23 - Relationship between land policy and water policy

49:37 - Lincoln Institute endowment asset allocation

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

John Darcie: (00:07)
Hello everyone. And welcome back to salt talks. My name is John Darcie. I'm the managing director of salt, which is a global thought leadership forum and networking platform at the intersection of finance technology and public policy. Salt talks are a digital interview series with leading investors, creators, and thinkers. And our goal on these salt talks the same as our goal at our salt conferences, which we're excited to resume here in September of 2021 in our home city of New York for the first time. But that's to provide a window into the mind of subject matter experts, as well as provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future. We're very excited to bring you a conversation around land policy, but a lot more than that issues like climate change, water conservation, uh, with the heads of the Lincoln Institute for land policy, that's Catherine Jo Lincoln and Dr.

John Darcie: (00:57)
George McCarthy, uh, Katie Lincoln currently serves as the board chair and chief investment officer for the Lincoln Institute of land policy, which is an independent global foundation focused on addressing significant policy issues through innovative land use and taxation methods over the course of her 25 year tenure as the Institute's CIO, uh, Ms. Lincoln has led the endowment strategic asset allocation policy development, investment selection process, and draw policies. All of which have contributed meaningfully to achieving the current $700 million asset base. Uh, Ms. Lincoln also serves as a member of several other boards, including Lincoln electric holdings, a publicly traded company. Now she's also a member of the board of directors of the honor health network, uh, and Claremont Lincoln university, Dr. George McCarthy, AKA Mac as president and CEO of the Lincoln Institute of land policy based in Cambridge, Massachusetts, before joining the Lincoln Institute in 2014 Mac directed metropolitan opportunity at the Ford foundation, uh, Mac has also worked as a senior research associate at the center for urban and regional studies at the university of North Carolina, go heels, a professor of economics at Bard college resident scholar at the Jerome levy economics Institute, a visiting scholar and member of the high table at King's college of Cambridge university and visiting scholar at the university of Naples.

John Darcie: (02:23)
And finally research associate at the center for social research in St. Petersburg, Russia, obviously with his deep international experience, George is the perfect person or Mack has, I should say the perfect person to lead the Lincoln Institute for land policy and its global mission hosting. Today's talk is Anthony Scaramucci, who is the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge capital, which is a global alternative investment firm. Anthony is also the chairman of salt. And with that, I'll turn it over to Anthony for the interview.

Anthony Scaramucci: (02:51)
Well, we're thrilled to have you both on John. Thank you. Uh, Katie and Mac, the Lincoln Institute of land policy its 75th anniversary this year. So let's, let's start with Katie. Uh, tell somebody that doesn't know what the Lincoln Institute of land policy is. What is it Katie, and why should we be super happy about its 75th year anniversary? Well,

Kathryn Lincoln: (03:18)
Let me give you a little bit of history, Anthony, cause I think that, um, some framing of it is, is interesting. So 75 years ago, my grandfather, John C Lincoln, decided that he wanted to have people understand a little bit more about land policies, specifically about tax policy and land tax policy and how that policy could really help underserved communities be better if you will. Right? So he wasn't in bedroom. He was a Renaissance person. As, as John said in my intro, I'm a member of the four, the Lincoln electric holdings company, the world's largest welding company. Um, he started that company in, um, 1895 with $200. So based home capital this year, we'll set, we'll probably have 3 billion close to $3 billion worth of sales. Um, so he had the chance to be an entrepreneur, a Renaissance person. And with some of that wealth, he started the Lincoln foundation, which really examined things around land policy and land taxation policy around the work of a gentleman named Henry George, which I'm sure Matt will talk about when you get to questions around tax policy later on in our conversation.

Kathryn Lincoln: (04:29)
But he, but my grandfather really wanted to think about those things. So he started the foundation and then my grandpa, my father took up those rings later on in 1974 and started the Lincoln Institute of land policy. He realized that there was really no place specifically in the seventies that was looking at land as a specific policy goal. And so he started the land pop, Billy get his to land policy because when you think about it, Anthony land is maybe no pun intended, but sort of at the bottom of everything. I mean, when you think about it, it's important and it really matters. I mean, my, my land policy matters to me a lot. Your land policy matters to you a lot. I, you might not care if someone's going to put a nuclear power plant next to my house, but I certainly care. Um, and you would care someone put a nuclear power plant next to you.

Kathryn Lincoln: (05:18)
The policymakers in your community really are the people who are making your life the way, the way it is. Right? And so not only getting student land policy works globally to think about how land policy can be part of a suite of solutions around global macro policy issues. We're going to talk about these today. I hope, you know, climate change, fiscal health, all those sorts of things, but it has its deep bruise and the visions of my grandfather who really wanted people to have better lives. Really, really he and my father there, their mantras, where the golden rule, you really wanted people to have better lives and better lives to thinking about how better.

Anthony Scaramucci: (06:02)
So professor, um, Mack, we're going to all your professor Mac for the sake of this. I feel like when I call you Mac after, uh, John Dorsey, read your bio, it doesn't do you justice. So you're going to want to go with professor Mack if you're okay with it. That's fine. A couple of couple of years ago, I read a book called the Nobelist triumph and it was called property and prosperity through the ages. And basically the, the author was making the case in the book that private property, uh, was the elixir for growth and the elixir for prosperity. Once people recognize that they could own a plot of land that they could call their own, they took care of it better. They built upon it. They, there was a blessing, uh, to property. What is your thought or reaction to that professor Mack?

George McCarthy: (06:56)
Well, certainly lots of volume Mac after this next question. Yeah. So the thing about, uh, property is that, um, there's, um, a lot of benefits that accrue to people for, um, owning and controlling a property. And, um, more often than not, those benefits are unearned and that's kind of the thesis of the work of Henry George that like Katie's grandfather decided it needed to be, uh, told more broadly now, uh, the fact that, uh, you know, people have been able to leverage, uh, ownership of property into other, uh, you know, economic growth, um, personal assets, um, you know, the transformation of places and countries and, and landscapes it's it's, it's undeniable, um, whether or not it could be done without, um, you know, the institution of private property and the private ownership of land is probably arguable. I mean, the, the greatest economic growth of the last 20 years has been in China where, uh, there's no private ownership of land.

George McCarthy: (07:59)
And, uh, you know, the back country has been able to actually surpass the United States and economic growth for the last 20 years, um, through a different kind of sets of policies and approaches to investment and, um, and you know, industrial and trade policy. So I don't know the, um, you know, just to go back to the, the issue of, of how land gets its value, because that's really kind of at the core of what the Lincoln Institute does. Um, Katie's grandfather was struck by the idea that, um, you know, Henry George said during the, uh, the industrial revolution, incredible amounts of wealth created through the, um, through invention, through investment, through hard work of lots and lots of people. Um, and, uh, he was kind of struck by the fact that in spite of the fact that economic growth was running a pace, uh, there was, uh, seem to be this distressing, um, endurance of poverty and in particular urban poverty that just didn't seem to go away.

George McCarthy: (09:00)
And he's trying to figure out why it was that poverty persisted in the face of all those opulence. And he concluded that the, um, uh, the benefits of economic growth are being distributed, um, in, uh, in a bad way. Um, and that distribution problem was that the people who are generating the wealth, um, capital and labor were getting taxed to fund the public sector. And meanwhile, uh, landowners were getting all the benefits of economic growth, uh, and doing nothing to earn them. And essentially what he argued was the value of land is almost always created by, um, actions that go beyond the actions of the landowner, whether it's public investment in infrastructure, whether it's the, uh, you know, the collision of people in cities that just raise the level of, uh, uh, value of land, having nothing to do with the people who are sitting on the land when they get there and having everything to do with all the public interest in owning land.

George McCarthy: (09:57)
Now that there's a glomeration of population. So what Henry George said was if we taxed away the under an increment of land value from landowners, we could actually eradicate poverty and fund the entire, uh, public sector. And, uh, that was the, the thesis of the book that he wrote called progress and poverty, which was, um, uh, at least in theory, or at least claimed to be the second, most popular book in the world. In the 19th century, after the Bible, it was translated to 30 or more languages and published all over the world. And, um, Henry George was, uh, was, you know, a barnstorming, uh, you know, political economists running around giving speeches. And he ended up in Cleveland one day and he met, uh, John C Lincoln, and the rest is history.

Anthony Scaramucci: (10:49)
So, so Katie, I mean, it's a brilliant exposition. Thank you, Mac, uh, Katie, if your grandfather was here today and he saw our society today, and he looked at land policy today, uh, what do you think he would say? And what would he, what would you think he would want changed?

Kathryn Lincoln: (11:11)
Wow, that's a good question. Anthony Johnson.

Anthony Scaramucci: (11:14)
I finally got a good question. You see that? Okay. You're not the only person that asks good questions.

John Darcie: (11:20)
I was hoping to save that one for myself. Let me, let me, let me repeat

Anthony Scaramucci: (11:23)
The question. Cause it was no, I'm kidding. Katie. Tell me, tell me what he would say.

Kathryn Lincoln: (11:30)
Um, I, I think that he would still think that there, there is, there's an equity there's unfairness in the way that people live and that way people are marginalized. Um, you know, there's, there's still, my partner is a real estate professional. And so he tells me that there's still in some places in this country, there are still laws that say, or, um, in NHL ways that say you can't sell to certain types of people. And, you know, you, you hear about neighborhoods that have been decimated because certain types of people can't live there. I think my grandfather would be appalled by that. I think that he would think that, that you should think should be open and that, and that everyone should have an equal opportunity to live someplace, to work someplace, to put an or in the water and pull equally with the person next to them, just, you know, whether they were whatever their skin tone, whatever their religious preference. Right. So I think you would be appalled at the way that we have segregated our society and marginalized, huge swaths of people. It not only in this country, but globally.

Speaker 5: (12:44)
So, so Mac,

Anthony Scaramucci: (12:45)
And I think that's brilliantly well stated, and it's an obvious problem. And I think we would probably all agree and correct me if I'm wrong, the problem is getting worse. It seems like there's been more separation and more disequilibrium in wealth. So, so Matt, what would you do? Let's say you were the grand czar and you could figure out a way to create better land resource allocation, uh, here in the United States and around the world. What would you do?

George McCarthy: (13:14)
Well, Anthony, I think the, one of the first things I would do is, um, recognize that, uh, it's really, um, it's really dangerous in the long run for a society to, to have, um, land and, uh, and, and the things on it, like housing, um, you know, essential stuff traded as commodities. And so, um, I would, one of the things I would do is I would preserve, um, a significant share of those resources, those assets for, um, for the, for, for the public, for the public use. Right. And so I would, um, I would pull a large share of our housing stock out of, um, the tradable market. And so that it couldn't so that, you know, um, the quiddity, that's piling up in any number of places around the world. Couldn't bid shelter away from low-income people because they see it as a good investment opportunity.

George McCarthy: (14:07)
Um, similarly land, uh, shouldn't be traded as freely. And, um, we would find ways to, um, uh, keep a certain share of the land available for, as the infrastructure for the society to, to run. Um, part of that, if you, um, if you then impose kind of more and fairer and better enforced kind of land policies, you could also make sure that the right things get built in the right places that the right, um, um, uh, you know, the right use of the police powers of planning are actually, uh, you know, designing places that actually worked for us better, uh, not just designed to kind of, uh, follow the, and let the market decide kind of what gets built, where and why. Right. Um, and I know that kind of runs counter to the idea of, um, of, uh, private property. But, um, I think that, you know, there's a, there's a limit to how much, uh, private property and, uh, kind of, um, market fundamentals, uh, can be, uh, can be allowed to kind of drive human evolution and not just human evolution, the evolution of the whole planet and, and, you know, in some ways, uh, an untrammeled, uh, you know, uh, freedom to kind of, uh, whatever trade and, and bargain in, uh, in nece necessities like land and housing and food, um, lead us into kind of a, a bad place.

George McCarthy: (15:39)
And that's one of the reasons why we have some of these really unassailable challenges, like a climate crisis to deal with, because we haven't been willing to kind of, you know, exercise restraint on ourselves and prevent ourselves from doing really, really damaging things in the longterm, in, uh, in exchange for short-term benefits and profits. Right. So I don't know, I, you know, there's a, I could probably write a thesis on it. So it's a, it's a pretty broad question, but I would say that if we just find ways to kind of, uh, impose a different sense of fairness into the way we make decisions about the use, uh, the taxation and the, um, and the, the transfer of land we could get, um, a lot further than we're able to get. If we just allow all those decisions to be made kind of in a, in isolated markets,

Anthony Scaramucci: (16:29)
You know, and again, this is just, I'm going to test this theory on you, Katie. You tell me if I'm right or wrong. Um, I find that, uh, and forgive me for saying this, we're going to leave John out of this. Okay. I find it's our generation, the baby boomer generation, that for whatever reason has been neglectful from a policy point of view, related to the climate, if I'm wrong about that, you guys correct me. Um, but I do feel like we're having a frat party with the environment. And then we want our kids and our grandkids to live in the frat house on Sunday morning with the bong water on the floor and the broken windows and so forth. And I'm wondering, is it possible to shake our generation, which let's face it is still more or less in power politically. And if not politically, also commercially around the world to shake our generation to do more Katy, am I wrong about that? And if I'm not, what can we do to shake these people to do more?

Kathryn Lincoln: (17:33)
Yeah, I think that you're, you are right. I think that we're slowly us old people are slowly seeing a light. I think it's, um, I think we're slowly seeing the light and I think it's people John's age. Thank you, John. And my children's age who are, you know, shake taking us by the collar and shaking us and saying, Hey, you know, this is why are you drinking out of a plastic bottle? Why aren't you using the recyclable one that I gave you for Christmas? I mean, just little things, right. Everything, every little step helps. So, um, but I think what it's gonna take, Anthony, I mean, I think it's going to take leadership from the top, right? I think that it's going to take, um, science doesn't lie. Right? And I think that people need to have to, there, there needs to be leadership to say science doesn't lie, and you have to beat our heads up with it, but science doesn't lie

Anthony Scaramucci: (18:31)
Not to interrupt, but we have a good 40% of the population that does no longer accept science. So we have two battles going on. Right. We have the science anti-science community now, uh, in addition to the climate change issue, right? I mean, I don't know. I mean, it's not just not just the client is with vaccinations or public health and safety.

Kathryn Lincoln: (18:56)
Right. But I think what we need is more leaders who are willing to stand up and say, science isn't lying and help people educate, you know, we need to, we need to continue to educate Lincoln Institute is, is by and large, well, uh, an educational organization, right? I mean, we really strive to provide good education around issues of land policy, right? I mean, around climate change around municipal fiscal health, around land policy taxation, but we really work at helping to educate policymakers so that they can make better policies. And then in that way, we are hopefully moving the needle on some of these issues that you referenced it.

Anthony Scaramucci: (19:39)
So I want to, I want to bend that needle. I don't just want to move it. I want to like totally bend it. You know, like, uh, like they did in those old silent movies, what do we do, Mac, how do we, how do we really force a major sea change? Because we know when we know even the climate deniers, I say to them, well, what about the AR you know, if you're in Beijing, New York and you've got small concentration, the asthma rates for these kids is going through the roof. So, I mean, maybe you don't believe that the climate is changing, but the pollution is affecting your shoulder. What do we do? Mac what's? Is there a bazooka that we get pull out a policy bazooka?

George McCarthy: (20:20)
Well, I think that the bazookas that are being pulled out are the, um, the climate bazookas that we've been experiencing, or just over the last few years. I mean, the, uh, you know, the, the, the shutdown of the entire power grid in Texas is just an example of, um, one of those events that happens it's supposed to happen every a hundred years or so. And it happened twice in the last 30, right. Um, the, uh, the flooding of, of, uh, of Houston, I don't know how many times of the last three or four years from these superintendents, tropical storms, wildfires, and all through California in the U S west wildfires in Australia that decimated that continent. I mean, the, um, we're seeing it over and over again. And, and, you know, there's, there's some things that you just can't deny like the, um, you know, uh, clear day flooding on the streets of Miami, because now sea level rise is actually starting to kind of show up because the, the, the water level is rising underneath the city.

George McCarthy: (21:21)
Right. And, and so, um, pretty soon you're just not gonna be able to deny it. And by then, um, luckily for us, the innovation that's been taking place, um, all around the globe in terms of finding new ways to substitute out kind of, you know, carbon intense, um, energy generation or carbon intense transportation, it's already there. I mean, we know what we need to do, and we know how to do it. It's just a matter of really committing the political will to do it. And I think that, um, more and more, you know, especially as people of our generation die off, the others are just committing themselves to really making, you know, the right kinds of things happen. So I'm actually pretty optimistic. I think that, um, carbon neutrality is something that people are actually talking about now. And we, weren't talking about carbon neutrality even five years ago, finding ways to make entire kind of corporations, carbon neutral, whole states are trying to commit the carbon neutrality countries, right.

George McCarthy: (22:19)
Um, and finding ways to really, really aggressively substitute out all sorts of, um, different, um, you know, carbon producing measures for carbon reducing measures, and now even finding new technologies to, to trap carbon in soil and in the, in the, in the ocean. And, and, uh, anyway, I think that, uh, that once we were actually on that path, and once we actually even create the market to kind of drive it where we're getting much more active carbon trading markets, other kinds of markets that are, that are, are just waiting to kind of get unleashed. I think that we're going to find that the incentives are going to align and things are going to happen really, really fast because the automobile has only been around for just over a hundred years. Right. They're really not commonly in use for about, you know, maybe 75 or 80 years. Um, so, you know, uh, things happen very quickly and, you know, we look at things in terms of quarters or years, or even lifetimes. Um, everything can change in a, in a matter of, you know, uh, one generation and it will be stunning and not probably won't be around to see it, but I think we're going to see an entirely different world, uh, in, in the next generation

John Darcie: (23:33)
Mack, I have a followup question about, about climate. So I know that the Institute focuses on six goals, and it's a global mandate that you guys have over there. And the first regarding climate related issues in what geographies that you guys work is this climate crisis most urgent, there's a place like Jakarta. That's close to being underwater. If we further sea level rise, they're engaged in a 30 plus billion dollar effort to move their capital to Borneo. Uh, there's other cities around the world that that potentially potentially are in the cross hairs. If we get greater warming and sea level rise, what areas do you guys work are most, uh, most in danger and what can be done in those areas to, to help them withstand the impacts of a warmer climate and is, is how much is climate migration part of that?

George McCarthy: (24:25)
Well, it's, there's a, about three or four questions. Let me see if I can kind of, I

John Darcie: (24:29)
Got to get my licks and while I can back. Yeah. So,

George McCarthy: (24:31)
Well, number one, I mean, the thing is that almost every geography we work in is affected by the climate crisis in one form or another. And that the problem is that it's not just one thing, it's everything it's, whether it's wildfires in Australia or California, or whether it's sea level rise in Bangladesh and Indonesia, or the entire Pacific rim, all the coastal cities are in trouble, right? The, um, uh, the entire Gulf coast, right. Is, is in trouble, uh, from sea level rise, Miami, I don't know how Miami survives this because there, there's no way that you can actually protect the city because the water comes in underneath. Right. So it's going to be really hard to kind of seal it off from a water that's going to be rising from below. Right. So, um, it just depends on what your, what you know of what you think is the real crisis.

George McCarthy: (25:19)
I mean, right now, in terms of climate migration, the, the, the, you know, the, what's it called the IFCC the, um, the intergovernmental panel on climate change that the, the IPC, um, they they've, they're estimating that we're going to have 150 million climate migrants, uh, by 2050, right. People who are going to have to move, uh, voluntarily or involuntarily as a result of climate change. And right now there's not that many of them, but right now it's really the disadvantaged folks that are going to be, or that are getting pushed out. And a lot of indigenous folks in the United States, in places, as far as long as Alaska, along the bearing, or the Chuck CISI or down in Louisiana, in the Gulf coast, they're already getting displaced by rising sea levels, and they don't have any place to go. And they're now testing all of our kind of jurisprudence and other kinds of, um, uh, uh, legal frameworks to figure out how we're going to adequately kind of accommodate them when they have to go someplace else.

George McCarthy: (26:23)
And, um, uh, and that's just going to be, that's a tip of the iceberg because we're going to see tens of millions of people having to move, um, from places, even look at the Southern end of, uh, of New York and what happened to Manhattan all the way up. I was in 42nd street, uh, with Superstorm Sandy, and we were displaced at the Ford foundation for a couple of weeks while they're actually just trying to restore power because of the flooding and the subways are out for weeks, right. Um, some of them, you know, indelibly harmed the office.

John Darcie: (26:55)
My office at the time was in lower Manhattan. And we, you know, it destroyed all the, uh, the technology infrastructure in the building and forced us out of the office for multiple months, also knew plenty of people whose houses were destroyed or severely damaged in that storm. So that was definitely a reminder that, you know, people forget a decade goes by, you know, from the most recent storm people forget, but it sort of, and this is not to pick on Miami, but I see this massive migration of, you know, people in the financial industry, people in technology industry, moving down to Miami, uh, knowing that, you know, the entirety of that city is only five feet above sea level right now facing the issues that you mentioned. So it'll be fascinating to see whether all those great tech minds can solve those issues.

Kathryn Lincoln: (27:36)
John, I think it's also important to note that it's not just sea level rise when you're talking about the 150 million migrants. It's when you think about, and we're already seeing this now, when climate change is the heat index. So they're making many of these lands on unmanageable. You can't farm on them anymore, right. Or the rain patterns are changing because of climate change. And so it's not just the sea level rise, that's impacting populations. And again, as max said, it's often the, the poor people or the underserved communities that are affected the most, and that is what that's going to be the global crisis. So

John Darcie: (28:13)
How do we solve those issues? And I'll turn it back over to Anthony after this question, but those issues related to poverty and spatial or geographic inequality, as you mentioned, you know, something like hurricane Katrina, there was a great Atlantic podcast series about the way that new Orleans permanently changed, uh, you know, following hurricane Katrina. Obviously we know that the devastation in terms of loss of human life and property that took place from that storm. Uh, but how do we fix this issue, you know, related to affordable housing related to poverty and just the growing inequality, uh, that's being exacerbated by climate related issues and even public policy issues around land ownership and, and the provision of housing.

George McCarthy: (28:55)
Well, um, just to start with, I mean, the only way that you actually kind of defend the interests of whatever we want to call the underserved, the, the lower income groups that, uh, those that have been experiencing racial discrimination for, for decades is through, um, really active public policy, because the only people out there that are going to be defending the interests or the poor, or the people with some other kind of power political power. And so we're just going to have to be willing to stand in the face of economic power, because the people who are able to are going to be, uh, you know, um, migrating to the high ground and they'd be able to afford to buy the high ground and buy it out from underneath the, um, folks that are living there now. And so, you know, I hate to keep using Miami as an example, but if you go to Overton in Miami, which was the historic, uh, African-American community, it's actually on high ground, right.

George McCarthy: (29:52)
And it was mostly ignored unless you wanted to build a super highway through it, right. Um, uh, for decades and, and kind of left alone. And all of a sudden they're facing all sorts of pressure from a higher income people who want to get away from, uh, the direct exposure to the coastline. Right. And that's going to be happening everywhere. And, and unless we get, um, a little bit kind of, uh, you know, creative and, um, and, um, you know, farsighted, we're going to have to, um, we've got to deal with it when it's really hard to deal with, as opposed to when it's easy to deal with. And so, like for, uh, for one of our, um, one of our projects we're working on is actually looking at where are the most vulnerable communities, uh, it, you know, two climate in the, in the U S and what are the options for them?

George McCarthy: (30:39)
And we're working with a group called the climate migration network, and we're working with, um, some, um, uh, uh, some folks down at Emory university, uh, and other scholars around North Carolina and figuring out, do we have public lands that we can reserve for communities that are going to have to be, um, moved? And how are we going to know, figure out how to transition them from where they are to where they can go. And one of the great things at least about the U S is that we've got a lot of publicly owned land in this country that could be developed for people to move to state trust, lands, uh, national, uh, trust BLM is the largest landowner in the world. And land, it owns, you know, uh, gigantic amounts of land across the west and, uh, and even some in the east, but the idea would be, um, finding a way to actually plan ahead, you know, proper, prior planning, prevents poor performance, right? If we, if we figure it out now and we do it before, we're all kind of running around and trying to figure out where we're going to, where we're going to land, we'll be able to do it kind of in an orderly fashion. But as soon as even you mentioned the words, managed retreat, politicians had the other way, because they think manage your sounds like you've given up. And you're, you're, you're, you're waving

John Darcie: (31:55)
The white flag. Yeah. But you don't want to be plugging holes in the boat. Uh, when the boat's sinking, you want to do it before, before you start taking on water. That's I guess that's an appropriate metaphor in this case. Anthony, go ahead. I

Anthony Scaramucci: (32:09)
Want, I want you to continue gentleman. I have, I have one last question before I let John, uh, read off some of the questions from our audience and stuff. What do you, what do you say to the full on capitalists in our society that, uh, you want to own their land. They want to have low property taxes on their land. They move to low tax states, uh, in order to do that, by the way, I'm a dyed in the wool, new Yorker, you spike Lee asked me, he's doing a documentary on nine 11. Am I going to be one of those rich hedge fund guys that moves down to Miami? I'm like, I'll be shutting the lights off in this great city with you, spike, meaning I'm here for the duration. Um, but what do you say to those people that don't understand what I think you guys are explaining, which I certainly don't want for myself. I don't want to live in a Bob wired, make match in, in a McMansion, in a Bob wire security compound gated community by my fellow neighbors are suffering. And yet we've got a very large group of people that think like that. I'm sorry to say it that way. And I hate to be cynical, but what do you say to those people? Do we need to move those people? Is that not necessary to move those people? What do you guys recommend that we do?

George McCarthy: (33:32)
I'll start with Katie. You can, you can jump in. So Anthony, that I think the, the, the, the, the sound, his argument, and there's, there's a growing body of research to support. This is that inequality actually creates its own deadweight loss of economic growth. No question

Anthony Scaramucci: (33:47)
About it. And lots of lack of diversity does the same thing that

George McCarthy: (33:53)
A diverse portfolio and how a diverse portfolio is, is, uh, you know, a much better kind of option in the long run. Right? Um, we'll also understand that, that, um, the, the countries in the world that have succeeded the most and had the most rapid economic growth are the ones with growing middle classes. They are growing middle class, uh, the, the, uh, whether it's an illusion or a promise of opportunity of, uh, of upward mobility, those are the things that actually draw from people that kind of the energy and the, the inventiveness and the, the hard work that actually builds economies. Right.

Anthony Scaramucci: (34:31)
I tend to argue, but I'm a direct beneficiary of that. You know, my dad was a middle-class worker, blue collar, laborer, non-college educated, uh, had a high wage. We went to a very good public school system. You know, I'm just going to emphasize this point. So I've made my money here in New York, and I'm a product of New York. I'm a product of its public school system. I'm a product of that middle-class ecosystem. And so now that I'm paying high taxes, because I'm doing reasonably well to pay back into the system, I'm totally fine with it. A lot of my buddies though, are not, they want to move to low tax places and, you know, they made their fortune here, but now they're going to take it elsewhere. I'm sorry to ventilate. You guys are cheaper than my therapist. And there's two of you. You see what I mean? I probably need a basketball team of therapists, but you guys are cheaper, but what do you say to those people? How do we ring their bell? I

Kathryn Lincoln: (35:26)
Think what other ways you ring their bell is to try. And, I mean, I get back to education and leadership, you know, I think role modeling is so important. I mean, I, I think try and model behavior, and I try to model language when my kids were little, you know, they're 29 and 26 now. So they're still kids. They'll always be kids. We know that, but there are no longer young, but young kids, you know, I, I always said to them, language is important and, and who, and who you, the things you say and who you are is important and who your friends are as important. And, and we're, and the kinds of things you like to do is important. And the things you say are important and diversity is important. And we always, I always made sure that they understood how, what a lucky life they had, but that we, I always made sure that they saw what a lucky life they had, that they, that they participated in, um, volunteering that we participated and not just gratuitously Anthony, it wasn't something that we did, you know, check the box once a year, we did this, right.

Kathryn Lincoln: (36:29)
It was something that we engaged in as a family, as part of our community. Right. I think it's, I think that you have to shake people and say, you have to give grace because that's important. I think that's important.

George McCarthy: (36:45)
Yeah. I don't, I don't know Anthony, what you, what you can say to folks who want to live on their own kind of island of, of luxury and kind of in their own kind of bubbles. I mean, maybe you can see that they can just do that. And, um, and then really just focus on kind of making sure that the, the, the rest of the world works for the rest of the people, because that's a pretty tiny share of the population that's running away and moving to gated communities and trying to sit on their wealth. And, and I do what I, I w w what is the, what, what is the benefit that comes to them of, of living a life in a bubble? I'm not quite sure. Right. And so the, you know, the pursuit of meaning ends up. I think being the thing that drives all of us in the end and understanding what, what brings meaning to life, I think is going to be, uh, the key. And I think that it's just incumbent on us and it's certainly in the way we do our own kind of promote are the right kinds of land policies that we want to make sure that, that things work for the vast majority of people. And if others decide they want to check out and take their chips and leave the table, I guess we've got to let them do it. I mean, you know, what's, what's really,

Anthony Scaramucci: (37:58)
I think it makes sense. You know, I, you know, what, what brings meaning to John Darcie's life Mack is that he asks better questions than me during these salt talks. I'm going to let John now a takeover, because I know he's got a flurry of questions and it would be important for him to outshine me. It gives him great. Meaning, go ahead, John.

John Darcie: (38:20)
He has a fair point, but, um, so, so to dig further into the tax policy question. So Anthony's referring to friends affairs, uh, that are moving to places like Florida and Texas, for example, being the biggest two examples of new Yorkers in the financial fleeing to lower tax jurisdictions. But that's only one element of taxes, income taxes, you know, there's no state income taxes in, in Texas or Florida. Uh, but there are in many cases, higher property taxes. So as you guys look at tax policies and public policies in general, how do you think about best practices as it relates to land use regulations, property tax frameworks, and land value return mechanisms, uh, that just create, you know, a better, better mechanisms for the supply of service land and just general land provision.

George McCarthy: (39:08)
So, you know, in terms of efficiency and, you know, economic fairness, um, and one of the reasons we exist and we still believe this is that the, um, the best tax is the land tax and it's the best tax for a number of reasons. But the, one of the main reasons is it's a, it's a tax you can't move away from, right. Because you can't pick up your land and take it to Florida. Right. Right.

John Darcie: (39:32)
And you can run your land through a shell company in the, in the Seychelles

George McCarthy: (39:36)
Or something. Right. And, and the, and the thing about land is that, um, the, or the land tax is that it doesn't actually distort, um, other kinds of economic markets and incentives as well, having a land tax. Right. And so, um, so we think the, the, the most preferable tax among all different suites of tax is the land tax. And it should be the basic tax to fund, especially local governments because, um, that is going to be, um, the source of, um, uh, value in the actions of the local government will have a direct bearing on the value of land, right? Because how you choose to invest in your own kind of, uh, jurisdiction will have a great bearing on what the, what the, the tax base is. Right. If you have, you build better sidewalks and you build better roads, and you have a better sewer systems, and you can pipe in good, clean, fresh water into the houses. Yeah. Your, your tax base goes up and there, your revenues will go up. It's one of those, you know, um, uh, whatever

John Darcie: (40:36)
Itself you create a line of incentives.

George McCarthy: (40:40)
So, um, yeah. And then, and then after that, then, you know, the property tax is, um, a good second best tax. Uh, the problem with the property tax is that, uh, if you tax equally, um, the land and the improvements you do send the wrong kind of signal in terms of making the right kinds of investments in the improvements on land, and you get, and so you, you might end up having people not using land to its highest and best use. Um, but, uh, the property tax is certainly better than, you know, a sales tax or an income tax it's a as a general revenue source, uh, because, um, it has it's, um, it has stability over time. And once again, the actions of the government and how it invests in how it builds its infrastructure, what it does will have a direct bearing on growing its own tax base, which is a good thing, right?

George McCarthy: (41:30)
So that's what we like, kind of, land-based, uh, we're really big fans of what we call the split rate tax, but you don't see it very often anymore where you actually tax the land at a higher rate than you tax improvements. Um, and that has the right kinds of, um, benefits because it incentivizes people to, um, make the right kind of improvements or maintain the quality of the improvements on land, um, and gets them to be more likely to bring land to its highest and best use. So, you know, um, we think that a diverse set of revenue sources is actually a good thing, but we think that we should rely mostly on the ones that distort the market, the least, and, you know, income tax, distorts, labor markets, um, uh, you know, sales tax, distorts, commodity markets at the store, it's all sorts of other kinds of markets, every other kinds of tax, you can measure the dead weight loss that happens as a result of the imposition of the taxes. But the reason that land has no kind of dead weight loss, because it's in fixed supply. So, um, the, um, uh, tax doesn't affect the supply of it. Right, right. And

John Darcie: (42:36)
You see a lot of the wealthiest people in the country and in the world, frankly go gates being one example of somebody who is hoarded, tremendous amounts of land because of that scarcity factor. Um, and the fact that it's not taxed owners in a way that maybe it should be, uh, but you talked a little bit about water. We've talked a lot about land, but water is a pressing issue, especially in certain parts of the world, in certain parts of the country. I think over the last decade, we've seen several instances of, of significant droughts in places like California, South Africa, facing a water crisis. How big of a crisis is general water shortage, and what can be done to solve those issues

George McCarthy: (43:15)
Is Katie, you should start in this way because this is near and dear to your heart in Phoenix, where water is something they think about

John Darcie: (43:21)
A lot, right. They use all the water on the golf course is there in Scottsdale.

Kathryn Lincoln: (43:25)
We use gray water. Thank you. We do think about that. You use gray water. Um, I don't know if any of the, um, any of YouTube on the, on the bottom of my screen, John or Anthony or golfers, but a lot of times,

John Darcie: (43:36)
Um, so I was saying that, uh, with a great deal of affection,

Kathryn Lincoln: (43:39)
Most of the water on golf courses here is gray water. So, um, but you know, we created the baddest center for on land and water policy about five years ago, to look at that nexus. I think it's important to remember that we learned Lincoln Institute of land policy, but we really wanted to look at that nexus between land policy and water policy, John cause to your point, water policy is really important, right? And it's something that, that a lot of people are looking at water policy. We're looking at Lam policy, but we really weren't looking at the connection between those two. And you think about how important water policy is to the use of land and how important land policy is to the use of water. And that's why we set up this on this center here in Phoenix, actually, where I'm sitting SPC. Um, and it's focusing on the Colorado watershed, Colorado river watershed, and about four days ago, actually something great happened again, first time it's happened again, about three years ago, water actually got to the sea of Cortez again through the Colorado river.

Kathryn Lincoln: (44:37)
Um, there's a nonprofit here who has been buying water and it's been actually able to get past Yuma again and yet through the two states and into the sea of Cortez, um, which is really quite a remarkable thing. When so many of those, um, farmlands down in Mexico have not seen water for decades because it's it stopped at the border. Um, water is an issue. And, um, it's a big issue in the west, especially in, well, where did huge drought, whether people think it's over last year, people that, oh, the drought's over. We had a good snow pack this year. I understand the Sierra Nevadas are at 5% of their normal. Snowpack 5% of their normal snowpack, which means that's a bad thing. Um, I was in Colorado every weekend. The Matt Rockies are still have a lot of snow and they had five inches of snow five days ago.

Kathryn Lincoln: (45:24)
So that's a good thing, but, um, water is a huge issue and, and it gets around, um, the use of it, whether, you know, 80% of the water that's used in our region is for agriculture. Um, and then when you think about it, agriculture is a really flexible use of water because you can let a land lie fallow, and then that water can be used for, um, commercial. Other commercial uses. If you start building houses, you can't really let those houses life out of those people need to, you know, bathe them, drain them and live. So there's always that stressful creativity, if you will, between the ag land use and the commercial and residential use the other issue, at least in Arizona and often in the west is that much of the water is owned by the native American communities. So the rights to that water, um, are often, um, structured so that native Americans own it. And then when then you have to figure out how to buy it, how to rent it, how to lease it. So it's water is a huge issue in the west, generally, not enough, except occasionally we have too much, you know, on the days that we have a monsoon, generally we don't have enough,

George McCarthy: (46:37)
But the bottom line on water is though that it's a market failure because we don't really have an active market for water and market water isn't priced directly. So without being priced correctly, it's not rationed. Right. Right. So, um, the way we have portioned water through these, uh, you know, really arcane water rights that have existed about as long as property rights and oddly enough, you can sever the water rights from land and sell it away. Right. Um, that is a, that's a, a going concern is so until we w we'll never have the right incentives until we actually get the prices, right. And we'll never get the prices right. Until we actually can freely trade water as opposed to control it. And these, uh, you know, Byzantine ways that we do with, um, uh, you know, with, with, uh, water rights, particularly in the west, the us west people, um, they whiskey's for drinking, water's for fighting over.

George McCarthy: (47:31)
Right. And, uh, and that's where they do. They'll, they'll, you know, there's been bloodshed over, uh, water rights, uh, across the west, but globally, this is a gigantic existential problem. And, and the real answer is, you know, is conservation and really making the right kinds of choices because, you know, water is a cycle. It goes, you know, it goes into the atmosphere, it comes down as rain or snow. It goes into the ground, we pump it out. And it it's the same amount of water on the planet that there was, you know, a hundred million years ago. And we just have to figure out how to kind of manage it better. And part of that is just really being able to think through things like, you know, um, you know, landscape choices or crop choices, or how we choose to irrigate what we choose to irrigator or what, where you choose to grow, where, and those things, we haven't really given it the right thought because the incentives have been wrong all along. Right. I hate to concede it. What are the things that you have to give to the Arizona's is they have made more advancements in water economy than any place in the United States. And they, they actually are one of the most efficient users of water, um, in the world. Right. So, um,

John Darcie: (48:44)
You find in places, I mean, we do some business in places like the middle east, uh, w when you have to be very cognizant of the way you ways in which you use water in the ways in which you farm, uh, it drives innovation in those places. I think Arizona is probably an example of that.

George McCarthy: (48:59)
And Israel boy, Israel is, is real, right? Yeah.

John Darcie: (49:03)
Absolutely. Last question I have for you, Katie is you, you manage the, a sizable endowment there at the Lincoln Institute that allows you guys to engage in all these terrific projects that are helping to protect the planet and help to drive great public policies, policy decisions, uh, around the world, in terms of how you guys manage your asset allocation as part of that endowment, how do you think about portfolio construction in a way that provides that, uh, growth and sustainable, uh, type of returns that you're looking for? So you can sustain the efforts of the Institute? Um,

Kathryn Lincoln: (49:38)
Well, we talked about Mac mentioned it a little earlier about diversity. Um, you know, we really have diversified portfolio, but I'm really, um, I'm a huge, um, equity girl. I just think that, that, you know, equities in a long haul are gonna serve us well, we've done, we've done reasonably well with our equity portfolio. Um, I'm also a huge fan of private equity. And because I think, you know, all companies started small and they all got big and long point or another. We, um, I, I really got us out of substantially out of the debt markets, you know, as much as we have really wonderful, um, debt managers, you know, getting me, you know, beating their benchmarks, they're doing 3%. Wasn't getting me to my eight and a half percent bogey. So we really all of that into, um, unconstrained credit. We really love this manager called SkyBridge. I'm a boomer or heard of them. They they've done really well for us over at, but we've been with them for

Anthony Scaramucci: (50:38)
Salt talk, turned into a marathon, just so everybody

Kathryn Lincoln: (50:43)
Like the old Jerry Lewis marathons for quite some time. And we're really pleased with the work that they do for us. But, um, all things aside, we have been really pleased with our hedge book and, and the work that SkyBridge has done for us. So, um, I have a tendency to, um, we look at our asset allocation, you know, every three to five years, John and we, we're not a tactical player. Um, I have my sort of my mins, my max, and I can lean one way or another, but we really look at managing to a strong financial return versus benchmarks. I will say that I do try and find mission-related investments where I can, I have a private equity manager who, um, creates mitigation banks, which is right up our alley in terms of working towards good land policy. They've done really well for us, but again, we, excuse me, we always look for a strong financial return first cause we all, we, we believe, excuse me, we believe that the mission is first and that's sort of max job, if you will. That it's really important to make sure that we have the funds to support the work and that. So to maximize the funding is what I that's my job.

John Darcie: (51:52)
Well, you guys are a mission-based organization. So the great work you do managing that portfolio gives Mac the, uh, the arrows. He needs to do his job. So, and we just want to, I know Anthony will, uh, reiterate this as well, but you guys are definitely take the right long-term patient approach, um, when it comes to investing, that allows you to achieve those targets. So we're very grateful for your support and, and a very admiration of your long-term thinking when it comes to portfolio management. But thank you guys so much for joining us. Thank you guys so much for joining us

Anthony Scaramucci: (52:25)
Stay much more than what John just said. So, but in all seriousness, uh, um, I want more and more people to know about the Lincoln Institute of land policy. And hopefully we can have you at our live event in New York, uh, which is coming up in September at the Javits center. And I just think it's important that we push these ideas because, you know, what's the end game. The end game is we want to better each other. Uh, and we know, uh, smart economists know it's not a zero sum game. We can improve each other through the process of helping each other. And you guys are doing an amazing job at that. So thank you. And congratulations on 75 years now, John and Darcie thinks I'm 80 years old, but that's a whole other topic. We won't be. Anthony remembers

John Darcie: (53:13)
When he was in high school, when you guys were founded. That was a great, great

Kathryn Lincoln: (53:16)
Moment. It's brutal, Katie. It's brutal over here.

Anthony Scaramucci: (53:19)
If you can help me out me at a year at some point.

Kathryn Lincoln: (53:23)
Thank you again. Thank you for inviting us. It's been a fun morning. We appreciate it.

John Darcie: (53:29)
Likewise, and we'll get on one of those golf courses, Katie, where they use that gray water to irrigate. I'd love to tee it up with you

Kathryn Lincoln: (53:37)
As a partner who will certainly love to host you. So let us know. There you go.

John Darcie: (53:42)
Sounds good. You guys take care guys. Have a great day and thank you everybody for tuning into today's salt. Talk with Katie Lincoln and Dr. George McCarthy of the Lincoln Institute of land policy. Just a reminder, if you missed any part of this episode or any of our previous episodes of salt talks, you can access them on our website@sault.org backslash talks or on our YouTube channel, which is called salt tube. We're also on social media. Twitter is where we're most active at salt conference is our handle, or also on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook as well. And please spread the word about these salt talks, especially when we're talking about what we think are really important issues around sustainability. Uh, we love educating people on these topics, so please spread the word, but on behalf of Anthony and the entire salt team, this is John Darcie signing off from salt talks for today. We hope to see you back here again soon.

The Basics of Real Estate Investing | SALT Talks #176

“With COVID, we had an explosion of online commerce that has driven the fundamentals of industrial real estate to unprecedented levels.”

Robin Potts is co-head of real estate investments and director of acquisitions at Canyon Partners Real Estate. Mike Levy is CEO of Crow Holdings where he leads the real estate company’s overall business activities. The talk is moderated by Jan Brzeski, the founder, managing director and CIO of Arixa Capital, a private real estate investment advisor group.

COVID has brought about many changes to the real estate investment landscape. As a result of the pandemic, debt markets have reopened much quicker than the equity. We’re also seeing lenders work with their borrowers to put in place extensions and modifications to account for the challenges faced to during COVID. Industrial real estate has seen rapid acceleration in its existing growth. “With COVID, we had an explosion of online commerce that has driven the fundamentals of industrial real estate to unprecedented levels.“

There has been steady movement into the southeast and southwest of America, a trend that only accelerated during the pandemic. Real estate investment strategy will focus more and more on those regions as the populations continue to grow.

LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE

SPEAKERS

Robin Potts.jpeg

Robin Potts

Co-Head of Real Estate Investments

Canyon Partners Real Estate

Mike Levy.jpeg

Mike Levy

Chief Executive Officer

Crow Holdings

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

John Darcie: (00:08)
Hello everyone. And welcome back to salt talks. My name is John Darcie. I'm the managing director of salt, which is a global thought leadership forum and networking platform at the intersection of finance technology and public policy. Salt talks are a digital interview series with leading investors, creators, and thinkers. And our goal on these salt talks is the same as our goal at our salt conferences, which is to provide a window into the mind of subject matter experts, as well as provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future. And we're very excited today to welcome you to a panel discussion about the future of real estate in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic. And our panelists today are Robin Potts and Michael Levy. Uh, Robin is the co-head of real estate investments and director of acquisitions for canyon partners, real estate.

John Darcie: (00:56)
Uh, she has been with canyon for 14 years and is responsible for overseeing the origination and acquisitions of debt and equity investments across canyon partners, real estate platforms, and holds a seat on all canyon partners, real estate investment committees. Michael Levy is the chief executive officer of Crow holdings where he's responsible for leading and overseeing the company's overall business development activities, including strategy investments and organizational resources. He joined the firm in 2016 from Morgan Stanley, where he was the chief operating officer for the investment management division and a member of the firm's management committee hosting. Today's talk as a guest host. His name is Yon Brzeski, he's the founder of, uh, Rick's uh, capital, which he founded in 2006. And he serves as the managing director and chief investment officer for the firm in this capacity. He has ultimate responsibility for the firm's investment strategy, risk management and operations prior to founding a Rick Suh. Mr. Brzeski was the vice president of acquisitions at standard management company, a Los Angeles based private real estate investment firm. And with no further ado, I'll turn it over to Yon, to host today's interview.

John Brzeski: (02:04)
Terrific. Thank you so much, John. And thank you, Robin and Mike for joining this conversation. And why don't we just start out with you could each give a little background on yourself and your firm, uh, Robin, if you could go first, that'd be great.

Robin Potts: (02:19)
Absolutely. Well, thank you for having me. Uh, so I co-head real estate investments at canyon partners. I've been with the firm since 2006. Uh, canyon is an investment manager headquartered in Los Angeles. We have about 26 billion of assets under management. Uh, the firm was founded in 1990 and has a wide variety of strategies across, uh, corporate credit as well as real estate. And within our real estate platforms, we're active up and down the capital stack. So we invest in both debt and equity strategies, um, and we're active across all property types in the top 40 markets across the U S uh, so that includes, you know, being active in ground-up development repositionings lease-up situations and distressed opportunities as well. Um, and our market activity is about evenly split between our debt and our equity strategies.

John Brzeski: (03:15)
Terrific. Mike, uh, tell us a little bit about yourself and your firm and also, um, the, kind of the legacy of your firm as well. Your, your firm has an interesting history in our industry. Sure.

Mike Levy: (03:27)
Um, well, uh, first thank you for having, having me. I am a, uh, a lifelong new Yorker who built a career in real estate finance and five years ago, moved to Dallas, Texas to join the Crow family, uh, in the real estate business, uh, Yon to your, to your point in 1948, a guy named Trammell Crow started building industrial buildings. And over the past 70 years, the Crow family has overseen, uh, numerous businesses across the real estate industry throughout that period of time. Uh, the company is owned by the Crow family today, and, uh, we're engaged primarily in two areas of real estate. One is as a real estate developer. We have a national platform across the United States. We develop, uh, multi-family properties, industrial properties, office buildings across the United States. And that's about half of our business activities in real estate. And the other half of our activities are as a real estate, private equity investor through funds. We invest in value add real estate strategies throughout the United States.

John Brzeski: (04:25)
So Mike, is it fair to say then that on the family side, your holding period is longer and potentially forever. And then on the private equity side, I guess you have to hit return targets. So you need to exit after a certain number of years.

Mike Levy: (04:38)
Yeah. Yon, we have three per, I would say we have three perspectives on real estate. One is as a developer, as someone who is out in the marketplace on a local basis, securing land, going through the entitlement process, buying concrete and steel and building buildings. And we have that perspective as an undergrounds real estate for our real estate, private equity business has a slightly different perspective where we're raising capital alongside partners in co-mingled vehicles. And we're, we're targeting higher return strategies, which sh you know, relatively short duration, three to five year investment periods. And finally, in the third area, the family on behalf of the family over the years has acquired or developed many properties that we owned some of them 30, 40, 50, 60 years. And so we have the perspective of a long-term owner operator and that component of our real estate business.

John Brzeski: (05:30)
Terrific. So why don't we go into a recent investment that you made since COVID, and I think this will be a good way to segue into where's the market today and where do you see the opportunities, uh, Robin, maybe you could give us an example of, of an area where you saw some value and maybe outline a particular investment you made, and then Mike I'd love for you to do the same.

Robin Potts: (05:51)
Sure. Um, so COVID, you know, has reset the marketplace and a number of really interesting ways. So from our perspective where we have, you know, platforms that can go within the debt area, as well as the equity area, uh, there's been an expanded opportunity set in terms of what we can do relative to what we saw over the last eight years. Um, in general, within the marketplace, we've found that the debt markets have reopened more quickly than on the equity side. Although the equity side is definitely, uh, now resurfacing with the vaccine rollout. Um, so on the debt side, I think, you know, the interesting situations from our perspective, uh, that have emerged post COVID have been on the loan sale opportunities. Um, we've seen following COVID since last March, over 13 billion of loan sales that have come to market. Um, and that's really been driven by, uh, initially margin calls.

Robin Potts: (06:48)
So a lot of different lenders, uh, from debt funds to mortgage REITs and other types of lenders that had, um, mismatched leveraged facilities, uh, and faced obligations to pay down, um, uh, the leverage facilities on their portfolio at a very inopportune time. So that created some forced selling situations. Um, and now we're seeing, uh, that those margin calls situations have passed, but, uh, you still have a lot of loan sales being brought to market by banks and debt funds and other lenders who are just rebalancing and repositioning their portfolio based on, uh, where they want concentration and different areas of stress and distress that they're seeing within their balance sheet. Um, and so we've been able to, uh, capture this opportunity set, which really hasn't been available for a decade since the great financial crisis. Um, so one of the interesting transactions, uh, that we recently completed was the acquisition of a portfolio of loans, uh, in excess of 300 million, uh, across a variety of, uh, different properties, uh, the largest concentration being multifamily. Um, and in our view, just a really interesting way to gain access to a repriced situation, um, as a result of, you know, lenders, uh, need to rebalance their portfolio, um, on what in our view were really high quality assets. Um, so, you know, interesting dynamic in the marketplace were, um, kind of secondary opportunities are available, uh, in, in a much different way than they were a year ago.

John Brzeski: (08:31)
So Robin, I'm going to ask you a few detailed questions about that, and if you, if you can't provide all the detail, then just provide what you can. So you bought that at a discount to par I'm assuming what kind of discount is it a few percentage discount or is it, is it, does it get to be bigger than that? And the follow on question would be, um, did you perceive that the, that the debt was really underwater or cross or I'm guessing a few assets were, but probably the multifamily wasn't underwater.

Robin Potts: (09:04)
So, um, as you can imagine, I can't get into specifics on that transaction, but I can just kind of give you the general landscape of, of the loan sale dynamics that are happening. So, um, there are loan sales brought to market that are performing, that are, uh, needing to be sold because of the sellers balance sheet issues there alone sales, where the underlying assets in the loan are stressed. Uh, so maybe they're performing, but moving toward non-performance pretty quickly. Um, or there are loans being brought to market that are true. Non-performing already, they're already in maturity default. And so kind of the level of discount between those three categories varies pretty substantially. Um, so you, you've seen a lot of loans, um, trade, you know, in the nineties are at par, um, uh, but the true non-performing loans, uh, you know, those, those ultimately are a much more tailored discount because you're really anticipating to end up owning the property. Um, and I would say that the, the true non-performing loans that ended up being, uh, ultimately priced at a very significant discount, um, uh, are much more concentrated toward hospitality and retail, um, given the overall, you know, challenges that COVID has presented toward those,

John Brzeski: (10:27)
Right. I'd love to come back to that because this whole, this is an area of, uh, that kind of speaks to what's how, how everything's repriced and what types of assets of reprice. Just one last question, before we go back to Mike for one of his recent investments, uh, who who's actually selling, like, where are the transactions actually clearing the market right now? Because there's been a lot of talk about sales of debt, but, but who is it? Debt funds that are the first to sell? Is it, um, special servicers of CMBS loans? Is it banks, is it domestic, regional, national international? Who are you seeing? That's actually first to acknowledge what's changed and ready to sell,

Robin Potts: (11:10)
Uh, debt funds have been the most active sellers, uh, in what we've seen. Um, banks and insurance companies have also brought a number of loan situations to market. Uh, the least active seller has been CMBS. Um, and it's, I think that's pretty interesting. And I think the, the reason for that is, um, it takes special servicers, such a long time to make decisions and for loans within CMBS to work through the system. Um, whereas debt funds can make much, uh, you know, much more expedient decisions in terms of how to adjust their balance sheet. Um, and we've seen, uh, you know, banks be able to do that as well. Um, but CMBS will just take, I think, a lot more time to work through the system. Um, I would also say that, uh, there've been many situations where loan sales have been brought to market, and then they ultimately didn't transact and the, uh, loan holder just use those bids as a way to mark their balance sheet.

Robin Potts: (12:17)
Um, so kind of sussing out whether someone's a real seller or not has been a challenge throughout this process. Um, and, uh, you know, in addition, a lot of lenders have taken the approach of working with their borrowers and providing for barons and modifications and extensions. So, um, you know, as much as possible, I think that's the approach lenders have taken. And then the loan sales that have been brought to market, um, for the most part have been situations that, uh, kind of are past that for Berenson modification, um, and for whatever reason that's no longer possible, uh, to do, which is really, I think, most lenders first choice.

John Brzeski: (13:02)
Terrific. Mike, um, tell us about a recent transaction that you, that you did at Crow holdings.

Mike Levy: (13:10)
Um, um, I'm going to comment on that investment theme is I suppose, as, uh, uh, as compared to a one-off investment and, but that investment theme is e-commerce, um, and that theme isn't distressed from e-commerce, but growth from e-commerce. And specifically what I'm talking about is in the industrial space. Um, we have seen, you know, this was a trend we could see beginning in 1994 with Netscape navigator, that the beginning of e-commerce, if people were going to buy goods online, but what, what we had happen here as we went through COVID in this period of time, is an explosion of online commerce that has driven, uh, the fundamentals of industrial real estate to levels that are unprecedented. And certainly my lifetime and industrial real estate today across the United States is being driven by three primary forces. One is just the sheer penetration of online commerce and the movement from retail stores into industrial fulfillment centers to get to the customer.

Mike Levy: (14:04)
But there are a couple other trends that are bubbling up and have been bumbling up one directly as a result of COVID. And we've moved from a world of just-in-time inventories to resilient inventories and have corporate America needs to have just a little bit more inventory of certain essential goods like pharmaceuticals or other supply chain, disruption items that, that small amount of additional space results in large amounts of additional demand for industrial real estate. And then finally you had this last trend, which was taking place pre COVID, but I it's pretty clear it's continuing today, which is onshoring and the movement of manufacturing around the world and because of tax and trade matters, moving to the United States. And so what we've been doing in response to that is financing the development and developing, uh, significant of industrial real estate across the major distribution markets. The United States, we will probably this year finance and developed 25 million square feet of industrial real estate. And so it's not about one industrial building or the exact economics of the building in Los Angeles versus the building in New Jersey. But fundamentally we're seeing this across the country and the major distribution markets, unprecedented levels of bright red growth and impressing them to levels of net absorption. And that's been an opportunity

John Brzeski: (15:19)
Financing. Um, the development Mike is that equity financing. So are you prevail providing JV equity to the local, uh, developer typically? Correct.

Mike Levy: (15:30)
We we're, we're, we're not a lender, uh, we're not in the credit business, but we have a real estate development company that builds industrial properties across United States. And we have a real estate private equity business that, that partners with other developers and provides the equity financing for their projects. And so we see the market from both lenses.

John Brzeski: (15:50)
Is that a traditional JV equity, or is it ever take the form of sort of fixed return preferred equity that can be refinanced out later by the owner? Or is it all

Mike Levy: (16:03)
It's traditional common JV equity. It's where traditional, you know, 95, 5, uh, common equity, we'll put up a construction loan of 60 or 65% below that equity. And we'll, uh, we'll build a building together and, and, and sell it either before it's leased or after it's leased in today's market. Sometimes selling a building before it's least as, uh, as attractive to investors is they anticipate more and more rent growth, but it's traditional JV equity. And

John Brzeski: (16:34)
Last question on that, are you doing that both on the family side and also on the real estate private equity side, where you provide a JV equity to the local developer.

Mike Levy: (16:45)
So we're, we're doing it, we're doing it on the real estate, private equity side. So about 40% give or take of our activity as a real estate. Private equity investor today is an industrial development. Uh, but we also pursue it in the real estate development company. Uh, and that activity is in partnership with institutional investors. And so, so those are the two areas that we're approaching the market today.

John Brzeski: (17:05)
Got it. And then, um, Amazon, are they building their own industrial now? And what does that mean for industrial developers like yourselves?

Mike Levy: (17:16)
Well, Amazon is doing many things. They're doing many things on their own, and they're doing many things in partnership with other people and they're acting in built to suit opportunities. And they're also acting as a tenant for buildings. Uh, the people like us build on a speculative basis and they decide as a tenant that, that we built a building in the right location to the right specifications. So Amazon is clearly a major market participant in building out their industrial footprint across the United States today. Uh, and they're, they're, they're certainly able to move the market from there, their solo activity, but this is much bigger than Amazon.

John Brzeski: (17:50)
Okay. Let's move on to winners and losers with COVID. And I want to kind of touch on that, the, the kind of the obvious, but also get into some things that may not be as obvious to, to all of our listeners on this, on this webcast. So, for example, I think it's, it's easy to say that working in the office five days a week is not going to be, uh, as it's not going to be necessary and every single company going forward. So office demand is going to be a little lower hotel. Demand clearly has been terrible the last year, but maybe it comes back. Let's get underneath the surface a little, we talked about industrial, um, being a long-term trend and maybe, uh, COVID has accelerated that. But, um, what, what are some other winners and losers? And you could go a product type, or you could also go geographically, like, like a, I mean, here in Los Angeles, in west Los Angeles, the suburbs are doing a little better, smaller cities are doing better. California's kind of doing worse. Phoenix is doing better. So, so, so maybe how about one observation, which is just you can't, you can't miss this, you gotta know that this is happening. And then one observation that might be, um, not as obvious to people that are outside of our industry. So Mike, why don't we go with you first?

Mike Levy: (19:15)
Okay. The obvious people are moving to the Southeast and Southwest in America, that trend was occurring pre COVID COVID, it's accelerated that trend. It's for many, many different factors that are in it that are engaged in that you can argue it's taxes. It's not just taxes. It's the totality of experiences. It's infrastructure. It's whether it's the build up of these cities, but America is moving to the Southeast and the Southwest. You can look at the domestic migration trends. You should not miss that. If ultimately you want to be successful in real estate, being in a market where people are moving to is a great formula for being successful over long periods of time. So that would be an area that I would, I would find as a bit self-evident, um, maybe in an area that gets a lot of discussion, um, and we're not active in it, but nonetheless is, is, uh, we've obviously seen a secular impact against malls.

Mike Levy: (20:07)
And there's a lot of discussion about converting these malls into whether it's industrial fulfillment centers or mixed use properties, uh, across America. And, uh, and that seems to be something that's grabbed a lot of attention from the marketplace. I would just caution people that converting malls into other uses requires, uh, entitlement and zoning, restructuring, and community groups and residential communities around these malls. That the last thing that these people want is 18 wheel trucks coming through the neighborhoods at night. And they're going to work really hard to keep a single family homes or apartment buildings from being built because they don't want to tax their school systems with additional kids. And so the duration to convert these malls, what they are today to alternative uses it'll happen. But the duration is not three to five years. This will take a long period of time in order for these properties to be redeveloped because the entitlement and zoning considerations that may not be self-evident to everybody involved in the business. Terrific.

Robin Potts: (21:08)
Um, you know, to echo, uh, some of Mike's commentary, uh, certainly the kind of secondary market growth has been an area that we're very, very focused on. Um, uh, you know, meaning we want along with a lot of other managers, uh, exposure in those high growth markets like Austin, Dallas, Atlanta, Charlotte Raleigh, et cetera. Um, but beyond the headlines of just, um, those secondary growth markets, uh, to your comment at the beginning, um, I do think an area that, that does deserve more focuses just the strength of, um, suburban or secondary markets within, or very close to, uh, the gateway markets, um, because you do have this tale of two cities just within, uh, kind of the greater gateway markets as well. Um, so for example, if you look at, uh, the bay area and the challenges that multi-family rents have had, um, an occupancies within the bay area with, you know, double digit, uh, impacts on rents, um, and significant occupancy challenges.

Robin Potts: (22:20)
Um, you're seeing the inverse of that in Sacramento, which has been, you know, a top three rent growth market, uh, over the last 12 months. Um, and so, you know, there are, well, there are a number of people, um, and companies focused on, uh, you know, moving from California to a different location. There are also a lot of people who need to stay in California for a variety of reasons. Um, and it's making those secondary locations within some of these, um, uh, areas, very attractive and high growth. Um, so we've been spending some time on that as well. Um, and then from a property type perspective, you know, I would just say, uh, our view on the hospitality industry, um, is you really have to dig down asset by asset because it's not one size fits all in terms of the effects of COVID on, on hotels.

Robin Potts: (23:16)
And we, um, absolutely think that this is a kind of temporary shock to hospitality, as opposed to what you're seeing in retail, which has been, you know, a structural decline over a very long period of time. Um, but within hospitality, you see, um, areas of bright spots and, and, uh, segments of the hotel industry that are going to come back much more quickly. So, you know, your select service sets that don't have a heavy FNB component, um, you know, your assets in a drive to markets that have, you know, demonstrated a lot of resilience, uh, post COVID. Um, and then at the other end of the spectrum, in terms of the assets that are going to take longest to recover, you know, it's those assets that rely on group business and corporate travel. Um, so your big box convention center hotels, uh, really do need quite a fair amount of time to restabilize. So, um, you know, it, it's, it's the winners and losers really require a granular exercise and, uh, you know, pursing asset profiles and sub-markets in a quite detailed way.

John Brzeski: (24:24)
Okay, I'm going to give you each a little, uh, heads up I'd like for you to each think of one question for each other that you can ask the other person based on what each, each of you does that you'd be interested in knowing more detail about. And I'll get back to that in a minute, in the meantime, uh, want to do a quick, quick feedback question. So let's talk about New York city and San Francisco, how long in each case until COVID is in the rear view mirror, and things are going great guns again, and everybody wants to be there again, if ever, if ever, if you think that's going to happen in our careers. And, and, you know, I, I give me, give me, uh, an estimated number of years for each one, when you think fully back to where it was. Um, and let's go with you first, Mike, as a native new Yorker

Mike Levy: (25:15)
Look, th the, the mega trend, the 500 year trend can continue to be around urbanization and major cities in great cities like New York and San Francisco being, uh, along the coasts and in port areas. Uh, I wouldn't bet against them over a 10, 20, 30, 40 year period of time. Uh, that's not exactly the question you asked. So we're going to this as society be vaccinated by the summer, give or take, that's pretty clear whether anyone chooses to get vaccinated, it's their decision, but it will be available to us. And so arguably one would think that by the end of this year, that we will absorb, have absorbed this in our lives and be able to manage it a level to allow us to engage with one another in a city like New York has been so crushed like San Francisco because of public transportation and tall buildings and elevators and people not wanting to get close to one another.

Mike Levy: (26:04)
So that should begin to burn itself off, you know, as we go into the end of the year and people are expected to get back to work, but there will be a residual here for quite a number of years. There are people who have already taken decisions to leave. There are people who've made temporary decisions that are turning into permanent decisions. New York's mega trends around population growth had already started to turn against it prior to COVID. There were, there were forces at work prior to COVID that were not positive in terms of continued migration into the city. Um, you know, I think it's going to be 3, 4, 5 60 years, uh, before the totality of these burn off on a generation of people. And now a new group of 22 to 26 year old people come into the city who didn't have any of these experiences. I don't think it's 24 months from now, and we're back to the same population, the same economic activity, uh, and the same tax base that we had.

John Brzeski: (27:01)
Do you think Sanford, do you think San Francisco snaps back sooner then New York? Is that one of the things you're saying,

Mike Levy: (27:07)
You know, it's interesting, cause we're all biased by the seats. We sit in and I now sit in Dallas and I can't tell you the number of people from Los Angeles and San Francisco that are moving here between Dallas and Austin. And so I see a stronger tug away from California than New York right now, based upon my interaction with people and the experience that they have that are not just COVID, but that are the totality of their life experiences in these cities right now. And whether those are taxes or other like quality of life factors, uh, I've also seen quite a number if you listen to corporations across America, the most prolific corporations across America that have said my workforce will work from home and no longer need to be here. They're from San Francisco. The company's making the strongest statements that you'll never need to come back into. The officers are coming from San Francisco. So I wonder how will that take hold? Okay.

John Brzeski: (27:58)
Robin, what do you think

Robin Potts: (28:03)
I agree with, with at least a three-year timeline to see, um, kind of the convergence back to 2019 numbers across asset classes for New York and San Francisco, um, and maybe longer in certain areas, but, uh, three years seems I think a reasonable assumption. Um, the challenges with the gateway markets and New York and San Francisco in particular is that, um, COVID has shut down the international migration and international travel. And so all you're seeing right now is the domestic trends and, um, New York and San Francisco relies so heavily from a demographic perspective on that international activity. Um, you know, for a long time, if you've, if you've stripped out, um, uh, the international and migration, uh, the New York and California, uh, population growth would not have been positive. And it's that, you know, international attraction that keeps, keeps that growth positive. So this isn't, um, necessarily COVID specific in terms of the kind of domestic and migration shifting to, um, lower cost and more affordable states. Um, so once you're able to have that, uh, international movement resume that will really help support those two cities in particular. Um, and that's also why they've been hardest hit from a hospitality perspective, you're missing all of that tourism element, um, as well as the longer term, uh, movements as well.

John Brzeski: (29:44)
Okay. Let's talk about office for a minute. I know I'm neither of you as an office specialist, but, uh, many international investors, especially sovereign wealth funds and pension funds. They're attracted to class, a office central business district, and the, you know, in the top markets in the U S is there any distress buying opportunities for those types of buildings today? And, and talk about how much have values come down and give me give a range if you can, from peak values, which presumably would have been a little before the pandemic to today, any information either of you can shed on that.

Robin Potts: (30:25)
So I think, you know, um, the, the winners in terms of multifamily and industrial and life science are very clear post COVID and the losers that are having the most challenged time in terms of hospitality, the hospitality and retail are very clear and office sits in, in this middle area that people, um, it's going to take time to play out because you still have, um, the, the corporate decision makers in terms of leasing and relocation activities. A lot of those decisions have been put on hold. I mean, you've obviously seen some, uh, companies make those decisions during COVID, but for the most part, the leasing, uh, activity has been kind of short-term extensions and companies have postponed a lot of that normal decision-making for the long-term. Um, and as a result, just overall office transaction activity is, is way down. Um, you know, if you're an office owner, uh, selling right now in this, you know, strange environment obviously is something that, that most owners are looking to avoid.

Robin Potts: (31:30)
So there's not a lot of data points in terms of valuations to, you know, really answer your question. Unfortunately, I would say we've seen more movement on the office side, um, on the notes sale, uh, side. And, um, the values that we've seen be impacted from that perspective really are you're kind of class B older commodity office product. That type of office is very, very challenged, um, especially coming out of COVID. Um, there's a lot of cap ex that's needed in those buildings to address today's health and wellness standards to attract or keep tenants. Um, so the, the amount that it costs for older class B office, um, to, to, uh, essentially keep your rent roll is pretty extraordinary, um, for your newer class, a office that can actually meet the, um, you know, new technology and health and wellness and touch, you know, touchless and outdoor amenities standards that people want to see in this post COVID worlds. Um, you know, there's going to be in our view, this flight to quality from both the tenant and buyer perspective. Uh, so I think there's going to be this winner and loser segment within the office market as well, but the transaction activity hasn't transpired to really pinpoint the value impact.

John Brzeski: (32:55)
So no, there are no data points really on, on how much office values have changed. I mean, I'm sure that you could, uh, there must have been some transactions of, of, you know, large office buildings. Mike, do you have any insight into that? Look there.

Mike Levy: (33:11)
What there is in the office space. Now I'm going to repeat quite a bit. What was said is just, uh, an uncertainty. Um, look, you've seen big, w you asked the question about distress, big distress in big retail, big distress in hotels. Now there's not a lot of trades there either because the lending community is being too cooperative, but, and maybe that's a question I'll ask the Rob and later about distress, but in office it's uncertainty, right? And uncertainty paralyzes people. And unless the lenders are going to foreclose and take control, but there hasn't been massive operational distress in office, even New York city, where I believe something like only 15% of the office buildings are occupied today, people are still paying rent. And so you haven't seen that kind of distress forcing, you know, the sales and the lenders have actually been too cooperative. You've been willing to work with waiting to get to the other side.

Mike Levy: (34:01)
But when you talk to people in the office business, whether you're a buyer or seller, it is the uncertainty. What percentage of people will really work from home? How many, a days a week will they come in? How do I underwrite the future cash flows? How do I know what this thing might be worth? And as a seller, if your lender is enforcing you to sell it, you're not going to sell into that uncertainty. And as a buyer, you're careful about your capital buying into that uncertainty. And so this uncertainty has really stifled activity. One of the things that seems to be clear from a design perspective is we went through a 40 year trend to densification, right? We went from 250 square feet to 125 feet, 125 feet per, per person in an office building. My sense is this COVID is certainly going to push people a little bit further apart from one another.

Mike Levy: (34:51)
And that's going to be a lingering feeling. And then owners of office buildings, if they're not modern buildings with modern, uh, health and wellness and ceiling Heights and HVAC systems, there's going to be a real renewed focused on wellness and the office space. And how close are you to me every single day. And that could be ultimately, that's going to be a big cost to the owners of office buildings, but it could expand in some areas, the actual square footage that a given company's going to need, because they may, might not be as dense with one another, but those are all topics on design. But in terms of transaction activity, I'm not an office investor. We do develop office buildings in high growth states in Greenfield areas like Frisco, Texas, where people are moving to, but we're not acquirer of existing office buildings, but I don't see a lot of transaction flow out there right now

John Brzeski: (35:43)
That raises another question. You both invest on behalf of institutional investors, and I believe your, you need to mark to market quarterly, the value of assets that are in the portfolios that you, that you manage do either of you have data points, either from your own portfolios or elsewhere of, of asset types that have declined based on the appraisal, or have the appraisals come through close to their peak value because cap rates have compressed since, since COVID as well.

Robin Potts: (36:18)
Um, we've seen appraisal adjustments and, um, hospitality, um, and non-grocery anchored retail as a retail. You know, the grocery anchored and high credit tenant, long duration retail is, is actually a favorite asset class still, but all other types of retail, uh, definitely are reappraised downward. Um, and, you know, uh, kind of anything that has restaurant FNB, entertainment, oriented exposure, that's, uh, that's been, uh, shut down during COVID or a very low occupancy during COVID. All of those have certainly had effects, um, from an appraisal perspective. Um, but otherwise, you know, the, the, just the broad lat lack of transaction activity, um, uh, because appraisers are backward looking in terms of comparable sale data points, uh, it continues to be largely supportive. Um, for us, that's not to get reappraised significantly beyond the most hurt property types, because appraisers just don't have those new data points, uh, to comp to,

John Brzeski: (37:33)
Okay, Mike, um, if you have anything to add, go ahead. Otherwise I want to get to one other topic, and then I want to let you each ask questions of each other.

Mike Levy: (37:42)
Well, I'll, I'll try and just go a little further out of the limb. UK obviously looked up public markets and, and you can look to appraisers and private markets I'll make a generalization across the spectrum just for, for the group. It seems to me that when you're looking at these various metrics of value, it looks like the hotel industry kind of down 10 to 25%. Uh, you know, you look at these big malls and these big power centers, these big retail, these, the, these are worth less today as well, but not all retail is worth less today. Grocery-anchored shopping centers and small food and service centers have done great, right? And so retail is a dichotomy of values. You know, the office sector we talked about, it's uncertain. It's probably not a net positives, but you haven't seen much movement there. Multi-families done great. I know there are headlines out there that people aren't paying rent, but the truth of matter is in class a in high-quality multi-family throughout the United States, people nesting in their homes and they're paying rent and rent is going up and multi-family is more attractive today than it was. Cap rates are lower and industrial is on fire and worth more. And so this valuation spectrum, the impact here has been, there's been winners and losers from evaluation perspective. And that's how I see it based upon appraisals and private market pundents and public market forecasters and, and transactions that are taking place today.

John Brzeski: (39:02)
Okay. I want to switch gears. We've got probably a little less than 10 minutes to go and ask a different type of question. Many of the people in our audience are in a position of placing capital with sponsors, either fund managers or individual transaction sponsors that are raising LP capital. And I want to see if you could each give them some advice, maybe even ideally, based on mistakes that you've experienced in your career, that, you know, the, the worst transactions you've been involved with, what would you tell our audience that, that they should not do or avoid that maybe so they could save them some trouble that you experienced through each of your extensive careers in real estate when they're making investments with real estate sponsors of any time, whether it be a fund manager or a, um, or someone that's buying a specific property and is raising capital for that project, any, any learnings that you can share and maybe, uh, whoever chooses, uh, whoever's got something to say first, please go ahead.

Robin Potts: (40:08)
Um, I guess I'll jump in first. Uh, so, you know, when investing with the fund manager, um, I think one of the things that, that a lot of investors may have learned over the last year is that, um, you know, that fund managers existence and experience across multiple cycles really does matter. Um, you've seen, you know, over the last 10 years, just a proliferation of new funds and new managers, uh, that didn't have experience managing portfolios through the great financial crisis. Um, and a lot of those new funds and new managers, uh, didn't necessarily have a fully built out asset management team to deal with the very unusual types of challenges that COVID is thrown at all of us. Um, and may not have, uh, you know, we've seen firsthand a lot of funds who didn't structure their leverage in a way that, um, could withstand shocks to the system and, um, uh, you know, ciao deep challenges within the portfolio. Um, so, you know, my, my advice would, would really be to dig into the track record and understand how, um, a manager has performed at different challenging points in time. And, uh, there should be lessons learned. There will be deals that have lost money if you've invested through multiple cycles, um, and making sure that you have a manager who, um, has actually incorporated best practices based on those lessons learned, I think is just incredibly impressive.

Robin Potts: (41:44)
Um,

Mike Levy: (41:45)
Look as any asset class, there are many ways to invest in real estate and, and, and, and different funds and sponsors out there looking for lower risk, low return strategies, higher, higher risk, higher return strategies. But within all that, if I had to boil down to one thing over cycles, and over time, it's leverage, it's fundamentally our ability where private illiquid asset class, no one can guess economic trends or capital market cycles with any degree of specificity, make sure that you financed your property in a way that if you get that incredibly wrong, that there's no scenario where you can't get to the other side of that economic cycle. It is fundamentally leverage that will destroy your returns more than anything else. Uh, and that's something to be incredibly careful of and make sure that your sponsor manager is really capitalizing their investments in a way that if they're wrong in terms of their exit, and they need to hold this through a cycle or through a period of time that they'll be able to do that, whether it's the underlying leverage of the real estate or the capital reserves necessary to protect, protect, and preserve that asset during a period of financial market distress.

John Brzeski: (42:53)
Okay. Mike, why don't we go to your question for Robin?

Mike Levy: (42:58)
So when COVID first broke, there was a huge amount of activity and energy around raising large pools of capital to pursue distress in real estate, let alone the tens hundreds of billions of dollars. It's already on the sidelines from existing market participants, but there was all sorts of folks out there raising large funds to pursue it. What's going on in the pursuit of distressed real estate today. What is the reality of the capital being, being, being put to work in, in any of these distress real estate areas?

Robin Potts: (43:32)
Um, so I think a lot of, a lot of the capital that was raised initially post COVID, um, uh, was best suited if it was able to take advantage actually of distressed in the public markets where, you know, things are liquid and could actually transact a distressed prices, um, within the private real estate markets. Um, there definitely has been, uh, I think less distressed volume than investors were anticipating because of the dynamics that we discussed originally, where, um, lenders have been forbearing and modifying and extending, um, uh, to the extent possible with their borrowers, uh, to, to provide a lifeline. Um, but it, you know, it will unravel it's, it's just a matter of time. Um, and there have been situations to, uh, to pick off over the last 12 months. And I think that as the, the, uh, economy reopens, you'll get to the point on a number of assets where the borrowers just, or the owners just aren't able, uh, to continue to fund the operating deficits, uh, given that this has gone on for so long. And so it will just take time for the distress to work through the system. Um, but ultimately, uh, from a volume perspective, we are not expecting it to be as large as, uh, what everyone saw on the great financial crisis where essentially, uh, parties on multiple sides of a transaction were forcing that sale. And, uh, in many cases that that's not happening today.

Robin Potts: (45:11)
Thank you.

John Brzeski: (45:12)
All right. And Robin, your question for Mike.

Robin Potts: (45:16)
So, you know, we've seen, uh, cap rates on a multi-family and industrial over the last 12 months, tighten up to 50 basis points in certain markets, um, given that, you know, incredible pricing dynamic, are you a buyer or seller today and multifamily and industrial?

Mike Levy: (45:37)
So we're where for the most part, whether it's as an investor, as a developer, we're in the manufacturing business right now, or those asset classes is what I would say. Um, the opportunity for us to, as we look at the marketplace, we think, uh, cap rates are a component, but, but it's fundamental rental growth and rental demand is what we see. It's the operating fundamentals behind those asset classes. That that is what is attracting us. And those operating fundamentals, uh, seem to be screaming for more supply. You know, America is under house by millions of housing units, right? It's not all going to be met in single family homes. A lot of it's going to be met in apartments. Uh e-commerce and other forces are at work. And so this fundamental demand, uh, has, is putting us in a position that we see the opportunity is creating new properties, you know, for this underlying demand.

Mike Levy: (46:28)
And as we build on some of them, we do hold for long periods of time because that's the investment strategy for ourselves and our partners we're looking to build to core. Um, and when we develop these properties, we can develop them at, you know, 100 to 200 basis point yield on cost differentials to the current cap rate environment. And, and, or we'll sell at that point in time to someone who wants to own a core piece of real estate at those attractive cap rates. And we'll realize the profits at that moment in time from taking that risk and that work of building these buildings.

John Brzeski: (47:03)
Okay. So we're down to our last question and I'm going to make it a hybrid. So I'd like for you to share anything that you think might be valuable to the audience, um, if you have anything like that and, or answer my last question, namely interest rates and inflation, obviously, um, those two things both affect real estate investment decisions. And I'd like to know what your internal assumptions are today about both interest rates and inflation. When you underwrite, when you discuss investment strategy, what are you, what are you internally talking about with respect to both those things? So why don't we go to Mike and then let's end with Robin.

Mike Levy: (47:48)
So on the one hand, I've spent my entire career now from the very beginning that interest rates were on their way up, uh, then inflation was on its way up and I've spent my entire career now watching the exact opposite thing happen and the smartest people in the world from the most well-heeled institutions consistently telling the marketplace that it was going up tomorrow. And so now the question is we go to the COVID and we wind up with a 0.7, 10 year bond. The answer is, it must go north from here and there's in the marketplace in the past week or two, there's been inflation concerns out there, the ability for any of us to guess the future with respect to interest rates and inflation is a bit of a fool's errand. And so the question is when, you know, you don't know, right, how do you run your business?

Mike Levy: (48:30)
And so fundamentally we, we generally are from a modeling perspective, making some increase in interest rates on a forward curve. Uh, we're looking at exit cap rates that are slightly, uh, greater than the entry cap rates in the, in the, in the investments that we have. Uh, but we are not looking at a scenario of runaway inflation, uh, in our investment period over the next three to five years. And we would expect an inflation environment to be consistent with what it has been in the, in the very, very low single digits. That is how we're running our business at this moment in time, not withstanding all of the anxiety, given all of this money that is being pumped into our system today, uh, and the longterm implications that may happen.

Robin Potts: (49:16)
I think it's a really interesting, uh, backdrop economically for commercial real estate. You know, you have, um, the recent stimulus package hitting this quarter quarter of, you know, 900 billion, which just as an unprecedented enormous amount of stimulus being pumped into the economy. Um, and then you have on top of that, you know, the new administration's, uh, proposal that's multiples of that, uh, potentially also hitting this year. Uh, so you have just this tremendous amount of stimulus, which gives kind of a backdrop of inflation. Um, while at the same time, uh, the fed has been very clear from a monetary policy perspective that we're in a continued low interest rate environment for the meaningful future. Um, so that is just a broadly favorable backdrop for commercial real estate. Um, and, uh, you know, all of this, uh, underlying support, uh, between interest rates and stimulus, um, I think sets us up very well for an interesting recovery across, you know, multiple asset classes within real estate. Um, so we're, you know, we're pretty excited about, uh, leaning into those asset classes and markets that are going to benefit the most from that dynamic

Mike Levy: (50:42)
Yon. I think for the audience as well, inflation isn't necessarily a bad thing for the real estate industry. You know, we should, we should step back. And first of all, cap rates are not a hundred percent correlated with interest rates at all. Second thing is real assets and hard assets seems to do generally well and inflation of periods of time. And there are some asset classes like multifamily that rent to reset literally every day and taking advantage of that inflation environment. The hotel business rents are reset every day. So maybe if you have a 20 year fixed bondable lease with no, uh, with no bumps on an annual basis or CPI bumps that works more like a fixed income instrument. And that's physical building may be disadvantaged during an inflationary period of time, but a lot of real estate will do well in an inflationary period of time. And so it's not all bad

John Brzeski: (51:32)
Well said. I want to thank Robin pots from canyon, Mike Levy, from Crow holdings, uh, John Darcie and salt organization. And then I want to thank our audience as well for joining us for this conversation today. Thank you very much.

Robin Potts: (51:49)
And thank you everybody who tuned into today's salt talk with Robin Potts and Michael Levy hosted by our friend Yon. Brzeski just a reminder. If you missed any part of today's talk or any of our previous talks, you can access our entire archive and sign up for all future salt talks on our website@salt.org backslash talks. You can also watch all these episodes on our YouTube channel and you can become a subscriber there. Uh, it's called salt tube. We're also on social media. We're most active on Twitter at salt conference, but we're also on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook. And please spread the word about these salt talks. We love growing our community and on behalf of the entire salt team, this is John Darcie signing off for today. We hope to see you back here soon again on salt talks.

Gert Dijkstra: The Business Case for ESG in Real Estate | SALT Talks #100

“You can invest in a sustainable and responsible way and keep sound returns so you can maximize returns and be sustainable [financially].”

Gert Dijkstra is Senior Managing Director at APG Asset Management, responsible for Global Networks and Peers and for Investing in the Netherlands. Formerly he was Chief Strategy & Communication and member of the Board at APG Asset Management.

More and more, asset management companies are placing an emphasis on investing in socially responsible companies. APG created GRESB, standing for Global Real Estate Sustainable Benchmark, now used by over 180 asset managers. This measures responsible environmental behavior like energy and water reduction. Pension fund management companies are beginning to collaborate in order to streamline the ability to evaluate and monitor institutions’ commitment to key environmental factors like carbon reduction. “We can report on listed companies with regard to their sustainable development goals and results.”

Adherence to ESG commitments involves communication with clients and shareholders. Five-year sustainability goals are set and these standards are weighed along with likelihood of investment returns. 20-30-year targets are also overlaid in building a global portfolio aligned with long-term ESG goals.

LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE

SPEAKER

Gert Dijkstra.jpeg

Gert Dijkstra

Senior Managing Director

APG Asset Management

MODERATOR

anthony_scaramucci.jpeg

Anthony Scaramucci

Founder & Managing Partner

SkyBridge

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Rachel Pether: (00:08)
Hi everyone. And welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is Rachel Pether and I'm a Senior Advisor to SkyBridge Capital based in Abu Dhabi, as well as being the MC for SALT, which is a thought leadership forum and networking platform that encompasses business technology and politics. Now SALT Talks, as many of you know, is a series of digital interviews with some of the world's foremost investors, creators and thinkers, and just as we do at our global SALT events, we try to empower really big, important ideas and provide our audience, the windows, the minds, and subject matter experts. Today's focus will not be on the US election. And as our producer, Joe said, "you can think of this as a bit of a palate cleanser from the news for the last few days," but we will be focusing on pension funds, sustainable investing and partnerships. And I'm very excited to be joined by a dear friend of mine, Gert Dijkstra. Gert, is a Senior Managing Director at APG Asset Management.

Rachel Pether: (01:08)
Which is one of the world's largest pension investors. He's been with them for over 12 years and he was a member of the board from 2010 to 2017. He was previously with ABP, which is the pension fund for government and education employees in the Netherlands. Gert studied business management at the University of Copenhagen. And has does further education at [inaudible 00:01:32] NCF/NCA and Harvard Business School. He's also a frequent speaker at high profile events globally, as always, if you have any questions for Gert, please just enter them in the Q&A section of your zoom screen. Gert welcome to SALT Talks.

Gert Dijkstra: (01:49)
Thanks.

Rachel Pether: (01:51)
Now tell me a bit about your background. You're obviously Dutch and you have a very unpronounceable name. So I apologize if I did not get that correctly. But tell me a bit about your personal background and what took you into the world of pension funds investment.

Gert Dijkstra: (02:06)
Yes. Okay. Well, Rachel, thank you very much for this introduction. And the pronunciation of my name was brilliant. Thank you for that. Indeed, I'm Dutch, I'm was born and raised in the Netherlands. And interestingly is that often when, such a question is asked, people start talking about their career and what they're doing and the importance of their firm. But thank you for the opportunity, first of all, for yourself and SALT and SkyBridge for having me. I'm currently in the past several months, working from home and that makes it, well, you might say, we look at a different way to this world and your life. I don't know how you all experienced that, but, several months working from home is interesting and give you food for thoughts. So one of the things I did for instance, is I picked up is play golf, again.

Gert Dijkstra: (03:06)
Instead of commuting for one and half hours from where I live towards my Amsterdam office. I have ample time to try to improve my golf. So that's one interesting thing here, I've learned you can shift your time to interesting things. Next to that, I must admit it's challenging to get used to have just one door between your professional work and your family office. You might say you're working, living with your family. And so often that's interesting to have to get a morning coffee, but it's also challenging to, in the evening, get away from your work and things like that. So my life has changed. As you rightfully mentioned, I studied at University of Copenhagen, did an MBA over there, worked around in consultancy, different consultancy firms for, let's say 10, 15 years doing different things, marketing strategy, [inaudible 00:04:15] M and a.

Gert Dijkstra: (04:15)
And I ended up, one and a half decade ago a bit more than that ,in the investment environment and institutional investment environment for large Dutch pension funds, which gave me an opportunity, to fill in different roles, have different challenges. And... But also to travel around a lot, also driven by having offices in New York, in Hong Kong and since not long ago in Beijing as well. So that's a bit of my life plan and I'm looking forward to the coming season because I am an [inaudible 00:04:55] energetic skier, but currently it's pretty challenging to leave the Netherlands and travel to Austria, for instance, where we often go because of the COVID measurement. It's challenging to plan your ski holiday. So I do hope we mostly go, around Christmas but currently the chances are low that I will be skiing during Christmas. So that's an introduction Rachel.

Rachel Pether: (05:25)
That's a great overview. Thanks so much Gert. And if you've just taken up playing golf, then we should probably have a game, because I'm probably at your level. So it'd be nice to play with someone that's as bad as me.

Gert Dijkstra: (05:35)
Love do to it.

Rachel Pether: (05:38)
But you mentioned your global mandate, and I want to dive into that a bit deeper later on, but the benefit of those in the audience that don't know much about APG Asset Management, Could you give an overview of the company as well?

Gert Dijkstra: (05:54)
Yeah, sure. Love to do that. Well, APG Asset Management, let's start with a bit of history. At one hand, we are very old firm, founded in 1922 when the Dutch government, started a pension fund. So in many years [inaudible 00:06:14] my view it happened nothing until 1996 when the pension was privatized. And then you suddenly see that, there is a broad mandate. You see a lot of new asset classes being introduced, going global. And when I started to run somewhere in 18 years ago, we already were into New York, North America, fixed income, real estate, going into private equity, hedge funds, commodities. So that was a really interesting period of time. In 19- Sorry, in 2009, the Dutch government introduced a new law and the Dutch pension funds has to be split into the pure pension fund and the executing asset manager.

Gert Dijkstra: (07:05)
And that point in time, APG was founded and currently APG Asset Management is the asset manager for four Dutch pension funds of which the civil servant educational pension funds ABP is by far the largest. The second largest one is the pension fund for the building construction industry. And I mentioned those two because they are also next to that they are our biggest clients. They're also our shareholders. So I live in a very interesting environment where my clients are also my shareholders. I maybe touch upon that later. Currently, at least at the start of 2000 to 20, we had around 540 billion euros assets under management. In US dollars, that's around 635 billion, I think. So I mentioned that because that's ranked us in the top 10 of pension funds globally. And I think we are characterized as a global leading, long-term and responsible investment.

Gert Dijkstra: (08:14)
And the responsible part I'd like to elaborate certainly later on. An important characteristic is that we have a large staff, 900 people working for us. So we have a 75% of the assets we have mentioned, we manage internally for the other 25%, obviously we select and monitor external managers. We are an active asset manager in the sense that we don't believe in standard commercial benchmarks, but we do believe being smarter than the market in the long term. Again, I already mentioned 900 people working from the Netherlands from New York, Hong Kong, Beijing. And we embrace typically the responsible and sustainable investment beliefs of our clients and ourselves. So that is, I think in a nutshell, what APG management is.

Rachel Pether: (09:13)
That's a great summary. Thanks Gert. And when we look at the sovereign wealth fund and pension funds world by far two of the largest themes or trends that we're seeing, the move to sustainable investing or the increase sustainable investments, but also the rise of co-investments and club deals between other asset owners. Is this something that you're seeing in Holland and with APG specifically?

Gert Dijkstra: (09:44)
We don't always see it, but we initiate it, I tend to say. It's not a new tendency, you're rightfully mentioned that as an important tendency in the world of large institutional investors. And I remember that I think already 2018, or even earlier, Texas teachers had in their strategy... So Texas teacher pension fund, had their strategy already, [inaudible 00:10:19] property/partnering/partly ordering asset, another part included and there's a beautiful Harvard business case on that. If you like to read more about that, but having said that it's typically a tendency, we already have had in, especially investigative real assets for quite some time, but it also picks up or in other areas. And also from an academic point of view, it's interesting to read some of the work of,[inaudible 00:10:47] as the monk from the Stanford University was privileged quite a lot of it, very interesting and relevant research on networks in the financial sector.

Gert Dijkstra: (10:58)
Having said that, for us we focus on, let's say five pillars, which are part of our asset on the property initiative. And if you look at our strategy, this asset on the [inaudible 00:11:13] property is typically, well needed for, as part of our strategy. The first pillar of that is boosting returns. Typically, if you look at the future, compared to what we could return in the past decade, it is far more challenging to find the same level of return. To find access to an objective yet difficult to implement long-term investments, it's partly is... Well, a very good option. And I think it's interesting example of that is that we collaborate and it's public information. We collaborate intensely in the past year with South Korean funds, NPS, we already did two deals together.

Gert Dijkstra: (12:11)
One toll road [inaudible 00:12:13]in Portugal, a student housing, real estate in Australia and those are typical, examples of too large asset owners collaborating. And this is an example where we talk about two pension funds investors, but you see that we collaborate with several wealth firms. A good example is that we already for long time, together with GIC from Singapore invest together. That's public information as well. But what's new is in the past, let's say two to three years. We talk also with [inaudible 00:12:53] family offices, something I wouldn't have done a decade ago, so everywhere where you see long-term and responsible investors and investment ambitions, large institutional investor find each other. So the first reason to do that is obviously boosting returns. The second important reason to partner with other asset owners is lowering costs.

Gert Dijkstra: (13:21)
So try to find cost-effective in direct investment in for instance, in real asset, but also cost sufficient to deal sourcing or processing and even negotiating fees. You might see as part of the agenda of the cost reduction part of asset owner partnering. Then the third important driver for this standard scene of asset on the partnering is to have more impact, more responsible investments impact. So more control over investments, more increasingly applying all aspects of responsible investing. Let me give you two examples. We were one of the founding members of a benchmark called GRESB G-R-E-S-B. That stands for Global Real Estate Sustainable Benchmark. And that is currently a benchmark used by around 180 asset managers and investors to monitor and report all their real estate investments. And it's typically geared towards reducing energy usage, reducing water usage, things like that.

Gert Dijkstra: (14:42)
As a next step, we also try to develop a lookalike benchmark for infrastructure, which is a bit more challenging. And another example, I'd like to mention to you is a very recent initiative, which we took together with another Dutch pension fund investor called PGGM, but also with Australian pension funds, AustralianSuper, and the Canadians British Columbia, which is an initiative for a... What we call AOPFGI,[inaudible 00:15:15] a platform where we can report, what I'd say, source data and report on listed companies with regard to their sustainable development goals and results. If, for instance, in carbon reduction, that's a new example. So there's typically something we need the partnering with large global investors to set standards in that area. Fourth reason you might say driver for cooperation without a large long term investors is obviously to share ideas on innovation.

Gert Dijkstra: (16:04)
We share our ideas with some of the large investors, sorry, to see whether or not we can jointly, initiative innovative pilots. We do that to go to together with beside parties, but also with cell sites, commercial parties like JPMorgan. We did artificial intelligence pilots with regard to sentiment recognition in the publications of central banks. So basically we don't have enough budget to do it ourselves, but if you share your budget, you can do far more innovative work than when you do it alone. And if you allow me the last fifth and last driver for accepting the partnering, for us is, human talents. What we try to do is to offer, let's say our professionals, which somewhere between mid thirties and mid forties to pick up some experience abroad with one of our peers.

Gert Dijkstra: (17:24)
And there's typically the period in most careers where you're not yet at the highest management level, you have had your university follow-up posts, academic experience, and you're looking for something new. So being able to offer young professionals in that age category to have one year in Japan or Korea or in China or in North America. That is a typically a benefit as well, becoming an attractive employer. So that is more or less the scene behind our ambition to implemented an asset partnering program.

Rachel Pether: (18:14)
I think that all those five points obviously really makes sense. I'd want to pick up on the third one that you spoke about and delve deeper into the impact side. And, ESG becomes such a highly used, or some would say overused acronym and can take on many different forms. Can you maybe just outline how APG actually views sustainable investing? And also I'd like to... You mentioned that your clients are also your shareholders and maybe how that plays into the equation there as well.

Gert Dijkstra: (18:51)
Yeah, well, we'll pick up the last part. Yes, we are obviously very close with our clients because they're our client and shareholders. So if you're talking about target setting and investment beliefs, it's always very dear. You might even say that it's an iterative process where we advise our client, and the client comes back. And so does that [inaudible 00:19:19]. So if you look at our investment beliefs, one important investment belief obviously is that we truly believe, and there is also sufficient economic research for that, that you can invest in a sustainable and responsible way and keep sound returns so you can maximize returns and be sustainable and disposable at the same time. That's a strong belief. And again, we have done some academic-

Gert Dijkstra: (19:51)
In the mean time, we have academic research sufficiently to[inaudible 00:19:55] indepen that belief. So if you try to translate that belief into policy and practice, you might say we have and it differs to be honest on the E environment. Yes, the social and the governance part. But do we have, let's say five parts of our policy, which well, give contents to that belief. First, well, we have a good governance policy. I like to elaborate on a little, we talk about exclusion about inclusion, and that's the most interesting part I like to share with you more elaborate. So say a little development investments and carbon footprint or climate as a theme.

Gert Dijkstra: (20:43)
What's important for us is that we typically start with the targets of our clients. Our client has very clear given us a very clear targets. They already did that for the period in time, 2016, 2020. So basically your question is very well timed because we start with a new set of targets for 2025 and targets for 2055 is in the listed equity environment. 40% carbon footprint reduction in the listed equities, and that's the benchmark is by the way, 2015.

Gert Dijkstra: (21:30)
So that's the baseline, but still challenging. The number two, another example of the targets of... Or really a quantitative target is that we have to invest 50 billion euros in clean, affordable energy, which by the way, is directly related to one of the sustainable development goals for the past agreements, for the specialists that sustainable development goal, number seven, clean and affordable energy. We have to reach that target by 2025. Then an interesting one might be the phase out for coal and tar sense from our portfolio also by 2025 or earlier. And then we have to find the portfolio fully aligned with the past agreement by 2030 and more challenging. And I'm not sure whether or not I will be still an APG Asset Management and net zero ambition portfolio by 2050. So those five very clear quantitative targets drive our policy and investment decision-making.

Gert Dijkstra: (22:46)
And obviously, we can't do that without clients having those type of ambitions. Having said that,[inaudible 00:22:56] adults are actually very challenging to implement that, but that's what we do. And that implies that in each and every investment decision we make, and I gave some examples in the listed of equity, with the same goals for real assets that we make our decision from four angles, obviously from a return angle, obviously from a risk angle, cost angle, but certainly also from the ESG angle. And they all have the same wage for a decision to be made yes or no to a investment proposition. So that's the way we translate, I believe towards targets, towards implementation.

Rachel Pether: (23:48)
That first one that you mentioned Gert, the 40% carbon reduction, do you apply that on a global basis across listed equities? Or how does that work?

Gert Dijkstra: (24:00)
Yes. It's very clear that at the end, it's for the global portfolio and it's a very, very interesting topic you now bring up, because for instance, when I mentioned there is a difference in base between [inaudible 00:24:15] EDA S G. When I take governance in Europe, it is the [inaudible 00:24:22] Anglo SEC's rules you might say, but certainly Europe, we have an increasingly intensive dialogue with the boards of the corporates, the listed corporates in which we invest. To steer them towards a more ESG, if necessary, more ESG like policy.

Gert Dijkstra: (24:46)
We experienced... So we have in Europe, for instance, a focus Europe portfolio equity portfolio with an increasingly, limited number of companies, because it's very labor intensive to have all those [inaudible 00:25:03] islands. So one of the effects you see, is that the number of companies you invest in decreases but at the time invested increases. In China, we now implementing a China focused funds that goes to say a limited number, but you see there that at an E, at environment and social, it works, but governance is quite a new topic for the boards of some of the Chinese listed companies. So there, you have to take more time before you are successful implementing your policy.

Rachel Pether: (25:42)
And we've had a question coming in from the audience. It's similar to a question I was going to ask, but they've actually worded it much better. So I'm going to select their version that said, "why do you think it's often the Dutch and the Scandinavian pension fund is leading the way in ESG and impact investing? Do you think it's a socially driven viewpoint, or is it also tied to the political stance?"

Gert Dijkstra: (26:09)
Well, that's indeed a very good question. And to be... My easy answer would be, I don't know. But when I think about it and often we are challenged to think about it because our Canadian peers often talk to us and call us, the enlightened Europeans that we are obviously very proud, but we'd also... You can also start thinking about why the heck is that... They are doing that, but you're talking about the Scandinavian when one of my dear peers is a Norwegian [inaudible 00:26:41] oil funds. So AND BIM, Norges bank investment managers, and that is typically a fund where there is a strong political connection historically. And I can't imagine that you see they're more political influence than in some of the other pension funds. For the Netherlands, I must say that there is not a strong or any, if you like political connection.

Gert Dijkstra: (27:13)
So then you can come to a discussion about the [inaudible 00:27:19] Anglo-Saxon world and the Rheinland model. So the [inaudible 00:27:22] and the Rheinland model, and when I was at a university [inaudible 00:27:26] in his town of which name you pronounce brilliantly. I was educated with a strong shareholder focus, but looking at my library, I find by all the old books on shareholder value, shareholder value, shareholder value. Still, the Netherlands is at the brink of the Rheinelands and the Rheineland model. So I think we picked up earlier from an academic, maybe full of societal, and maybe even from a political angle. So flavor of the movement early from shareholder towards stakeholder movement and modeling and thinking. And if I look at the board members of my largest clients, so being the Dutch pension funds, they want to be part of the Dutch society.

Gert Dijkstra: (28:20)
They want us to focus on our role in society. So, yes, that's, maybe a bit of no answer, but I do think that if you're in Europe, that might be a bit earlier influence of societal, or if you like stakeholder thinking that it might be in other parts of the globe. What's interesting for me is that we had... We also, here, we have had a fierce discussion some years ago. Was regard to the tension between return focus and which is part of your fiduciary duty or which is rooted in the prudent person rule and whether or not you could broaden your scope towards ESG, so sustainable and responsible investing. And at the moment that there is sufficient academic research and prove that you can do both.

Gert Dijkstra: (29:29)
So being a responsible and a sustainable investor without losing return. That's the solution, that's the way forward. And we had some enlightened CEOs and leaders here at Western Europe who brought us all that route. And I see the same by the way, and some of the same sinking and some of the US-based large venture funds in terms of the Californias,[inaudible 00:30:02], et cetera, who do a pretty much the same thinking as we do. So it's not any more, the enlightened Europeans, I must say. So I am not sure whether or not I answered the question, right, but that's some of my thoughts about it.

Rachel Pether: (30:18)
I think that's very explanatory. And if you do look at the academic research, which shows that sustainable investing actually leads to greater returns, you're doing a fiduciary disservice by not investing sustainably, and you can almost flip that around. You do mention US pension funds, and we've had another question coming in from the audience about that. So I'll address it. And then I have a bit deeper into asset classes, but given that, there are many States employee pension funds in the US that have this large funding gap. Some of them are very heavily underfunded. What do you think can be done the here and what would be your advice or guidance to some of these spaces facing large funding gap issues?

Gert Dijkstra: (31:15)
Yeah, well, I think it's an important question, but at the same time, pretty difficult for me to answer in the sense that I'm curious about the reasons behind the gap. Basically, if you can see what options would, which instruments a pension board has. It's limited. You can say, we can raise the pension premium in, we can lower the pension premium out. We can take more risk in terms of investing, but those are basically the limited instruments the boards of pension funds have. Maybe I can illustrate it by the following. We did some research based on the data our clients gave us that's which gets insight in which part of the premiums paid out were raised by our returns. So if I make it more visible, if you take 100 euro for you, maybe 100 US dollars, but for me, one unit euro, the question was for each 100 euro paid out today to retired fireman or retired teacher, which part is brought up by APGs management.

Gert Dijkstra: (32:54)
So what are the investment returns? And the answer to that question is, well, I'd say very interesting. That's 75 euro. So 75% of the premium paid out are based off investment income. By the way 8 euro is the contribution on average of the employee, 18 euro is the contribution of the employer. And again, 75 is the work we have to do. And I'm not sure whether or not this is the answer but those are the limited options, a pension fund board member has to influence the gap. So that's part of, let's say part one of the answer, part two is there is now a gap. So in a low interest environment, you have to seek for more risky investment opportunities to get an acceptable return for a couple of years or a couple of decades. So what move would forward one way out is to find controlled, but still more risky and more return giving assets, which is a dangerous route.

Gert Dijkstra: (34:22)
But if you don't go that road, it will be extremely difficult to bridge that gap. Obviously, the other one is to cut the bench of premiums paid hours, which is not favorable for society is well, in many senses, it's not a good way to move forward. And obviously the other one is to raise the pension premium page at this moment by their employees. And what we also did is currently with some of the pension funds in the Netherlands, the participants already pay, one day per week of their salary in the pension fund. So we're up 20%. So that's extremely high, extremely high. So in the Netherlands, it's for some of the pension funds, extremely difficult to use that instrument to keep the coverage ratio at a sound level.

Rachel Pether: (35:28)
Yeah. And I think that well, if you suddenly change the amount that you pay out, as you said, it has a whole lot of social implications and relationships either.[inaudible 00:35:37] method as a last resort.

Gert Dijkstra: (35:39)
The good news is, what we have here at Netherlands, I know you know our model. We have the three pillar model where the first pillar obviously is that somebody was working and living in the Netherlands becomes 67 currently, gets a state pension. We don't interfere with that. Then the second pillar is typically our market segment where somebody who is working in the Netherlands on a mandatory basis becomes participant of a pension fund, an industry pension funds. And then when he or she becomes 67, that is paid out as well. And the third pillar obviously, is that you can arrange your individual pension scheme. And that's a market segment where mostly here, the insurance companies are active.

Rachel Pether: (36:33)
And did you know, just quick facts for you that in Birmingham you can retire at age 49 after 15 years. So, as you can imagine, there's quite a difference in the pension model there. We had a whole host of other audience questions coming in. One is, I know you spoke about the public equities and how you look at that, but there's a question that's come in, it's got a few parts to it. Firstly, is how are your policies implemented outside of public equities for example in the private equity and venture capital space. And then the second part, do you invest across the board or you prefer early stage innovation versus much late stage, or do you prefer any sectors or industries as long as they meet those as five pillars that you spoke about previously?

Gert Dijkstra: (37:23)
Yep. Let me first take the last one. Typically pension funds we love long-term predictable cash flows. That's because we have to deal with the liability of our clients. So our clients liabilities. And so the cash flow out is pretty predictable. And so we love long-term predictable cash flows by preferably with a bit of inflation compensation in it. So that's why we invest in [inaudible 00:37:56]. That's why we invest in some of the energy related to industries. Having said that, that was in all the good old days because those markets have become very competitive. So to be positioned, ideally for those long-term cash flows. So for what we call the brownfields, we've moved towards Greenfield, and we have already some mandates from our clients where we can fully invest in venture early stage.

Gert Dijkstra: (38:39)
But still in terms of size it's not that large. So yes, we are moving towards earliest stage in terms of investing, but at the end, we still love our long term predictable let's say brownfield cash flows. So yes, we moved to greenfield. Another important thing is not only in investing, but also in, you might say a behavior or governance. What we did... What we not did, let's say a decade ago was to interfere with project developers, intiaters innovators, and typically in the past years, we moved towards also what you might say, the life cycle value chain in early stage, where we together was entrepreneurs develop, their projects. And if you allow me, two or two examples, one is if you, I would... Rachel, I would advise you when you go and when, come in London again, go visit the Westfield shopping mall.

Gert Dijkstra: (39:47)
That's typically, just parked near the Olympic stadium. It's a beautiful market shopping mall. We already set at the table together with the project developer where there were still the old industry buildings. So that was a very early stage, the same goes for a hotel chain, which started in the Netherlands, by the way, it's called [inaudible 00:40:08]. It's a very easy to go hotel chain. And the same goes there, we started in a very early stage there and that two illustrations of actions we wouldn't have done 15 years ago, 10 years ago, maybe, but we are now trying to position us as a... Well investor for the longterm, but to be... To make that long term interesting, we started early. So that's part one of the answer. The other question was about, yes, you can implement your sustainable, responsible investing policy, in listed equities, but how do you deal with, for instance, private equity or venture capital?

Gert Dijkstra: (41:00)
We have a pretty large private equity portfolio around 20 billion euros. And most of them or maybe all of them are funds, are co-investments secondaries. So we always have to deal with private equity, with GPs, with general partners, and we have to convince them that we really love them, but they need to implement our ideas of sustainable, responsible investing. And that's challenging so the question is absolutely spot on because that's a challenging part, especially in an era where there's so much money available for real assets, for private equity, for venture capital. So at the one hand, you want to be an LLP, in the top core title, GP league and on the other hand you want to negotiate that's the private equity firms start implementing, or at least living up to your sustainable and responsible investing principles.

Gert Dijkstra: (42:08)
The good news is many of the large private equity and top core title, private equity firms have adopted, in the mean time similar responsible investing policies using more or less the same responsible investing criteria. But I think the truth is, it was and still is challenging to get the right level of transparency, the right level of attention for those aspects. So the honest answer is yes, some of the asset classes are easier than the others and private equity is not always easy to get your ambitions in terms of sustainability and responsible investing, implementing, but it's... You need to have a permanent dialogue with those private equity firms and one step forward, I know that in some cases, private equity firms said, no, thank you. We don't want your money because it's too challenging, et cetera. So yes, that's a really a challenge. Good question.

Rachel Pether: (43:27)
Yeah. And I guess with your size, 635 billion having to deploy so much capital, you're already shrinking your investible universe a little bit there as well. It's a lot of money to put to work. We've only got time... we are actually over time, but I'm going to ask one more question from Sebastian Javadi and thank you, Sebastian, because he's a great SALT Talk supporter, but he said, "how do you balance the need to invest in companies that are responsible on the carbon side versus companies that aren't carbon responsible, but are critical to the functioning of our economy." And the example that he gives is, flying appliance for instance, is another carbon friendly activity, but critical for the functioning of our global economy, or maybe not so much in the last few months from the passengers' statement. How do you sort of balance out that tension between, well, necessity or the economy.

Gert Dijkstra: (44:31)
Sebastian great question. And typically a great illustration of one of the dilemmas you encounter, where you have an ambitious, responsible, sustainable investing year that's when policy and tried to implement it. You're typically... Well typically, well, get... I see my colleagues wrestling with those type of dilemmas. And the way out obviously is to start and maintain dialogue with the boards of those companies and try in time to move them towards a situation where they fit into your policy. And maybe, I don't know whether or not we have much time, Rachel but just let me briefly explain our inclusion policy.

Gert Dijkstra: (45:25)
We only invest in companies after a few steps. The first step is to assess whether or not they are a front runner or a [inaudible 00:45:39] in terms of sustainable and development, entrepreneurship. If they are in the front line, then you look at the return options, et cetera. And that it comes into the portfolio. Is there [inaudible 00:45:56]? Those are the most interesting. Applies most on Sebastian question I guess, with your leg art, you have two options, if you see that there is an interesting return perspective, you might say, okay, they are possibly, they are potentially part of the portfolio, but we have to start a dialogue. If the return perspective is negative, these typically are not in your portfolio. So there you see the mechanism we apply, but that is a bit of a technocratic answer on a very, very deep dilemma we encounter every now and then so Sebastian, Thank you very much for the question. It's spot on.

Rachel Pether: (46:35)
No, I think that's a great answer and if it's a case of a [inaudible 00:46:40] and that's an opportunity for you as well, isn't it? As long as the willingness as you say, is there from the actual company to improve. I do just want to ask, I know I said it was the last question, but I do just want to ask, one last question I had about a dozen questions that we didn't get to, and we didn't talk about the elections. I'm happy about that too, but how do you see the post-crisis world and the role of the responsible institutional investor within that?

Gert Dijkstra: (47:15)
Well given that, that's a beautiful last question, which I can, well spend an hour, but you want me to give a brief answer. I still like to have two or three perspective, number one is from a geographical point of view. We guess that, if you look at the three large economic blocks, starting with US. It might be the case that US comes out of the Corona crisis less dominance, partly because there's a division between the States, which is very visible and became even more visible, I guess, during the COVID crisis, Corona crisis. And there is a very strong market and individual orientation. So that might be the big round of US being a less dominance. You have to see that in relation to the second economic block, being China, and although China might come out and be stronger.

Gert Dijkstra: (48:19)
Typically, they cannot take over the leading role globally. The Country is not sufficiently trusted yet at a global stage. And there is evidence sufficiently for that. And then Europe, my own environments. What I see is that Europe is populous divided, and we have to get our act together in decision-making before European union can become a relevant, really relevant part on the global stage. And that is not the case yet. Although I must say that, recently we had a European Green Belt issue, which forced the different countries to work together. And that's a very interesting signal I'd say. So that's perspective number one, if you'll allow me, the second one, that's technology because we do see that the crisis, the COVID crisis might reinforce technological trends in which you can see that US and China have far more stronger technology sectors than Europe.

Gert Dijkstra: (49:34)
Let me illustrate that with the one third of the engineers globally, live in China. So that is a potential source for innovation, which is great. Then you might say that some of the industries like pharmacy and biotech will continue to grow, maybe boost even. Mass entertainment, we think to take a hit over digital individual entertainment. What I will say obviously is that the tourist industry might come out quite differently then when we started the investment company. My last three remarks on the COVID crisis, is one; What we see is that's not necessarily the US dollar will stay the only reserve currency, the midterm or long term, you might even say, it's not inconceivable that interest rates and inflation will take a different path and start to rise sharply. And what other consideration might be that perhaps it will be a turnaround in the popularity of illiquid investments and listed markets being more transparent and being more digital might be re-assessed and being for large institutional investors before will be more relevant and interesting. Well, let's keep it there.

Rachel Pether: (51:16)
Thank you so much Gert for summarizing what could have been an hour answer about three and a half minutes. That was very impressive. And we're slightly over time, but I just wanted to say thank you so much for your really thoughtful and in-depth answers and providing such a great window into APG Asset Management and yourself as well. So thanks very much again.

Gert Dijkstra: (51:37)
Good. Thank you, Rachel. Always great to have a dialogue with you. Thanks.

Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: Why Success Is All About Execution | SALT Talks #77

“I never think any trait, or any weakness can be an obstacle if you have the right political alignment, if you have the right financing in place… it's all about execution.”

Zulfiquar Ghadiyali is the Executive Director of Directions Investment Holding Company (DIHC), under the chairmanship of His Highness Sheikh Mohammed bin Sultan bin Hamdan Al Nahyan. Ghadiyali’s family business spans across Asia and the Middle East in the fields of real estate, hospitality and general trading.

Growing up in India in a family involved in major construction projects provided early exposure to the real estate business. It also developed early an ability to manage politics of a project. After traveling extensively for work, a move to the UAE made clear that business and hospitality companies should first come to UAE and set up shop before expanding into other regions of the world- made effective due to UAE’s de facto position as the gateway to Asia. The desire from the family to build and their capital backing serves as two of the most important ingredients necessary to drive successful development projects. “I never think any trait, or any weakness can be an obstacle if you have the right political alignment, if you have the right financing in place… it's all about execution.”

LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE

SPEAKER

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Zulfiquar Ghadiyali

Executive Director

Directions Investment Holding Company (DIHC)

MODERATOR

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Anthony Scaramucci

Founder & Managing Partner

SkyBridge

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Rachel Pether: (00:08)
Hi everyone. And welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is Rachel Pether and I'm a senior advisor to SkyBridge Capital, which is a global alternative investments firm, as well as being the MC for SALT, a thought leadership forum, and networking platform that encompasses finance, technology, and politics. SALT Talks is a series of digital interviews with some of the world's foremost investors, creators, and thinkers, and just as we do at our global SALT conference series, we aim to empower really big important ideas, and provide our audience a window into the mind of some subject matter experts. Today, we'll be speaking to his excellency, Zulfiquar Z Ghadiyali. Zulfiquar is the Executive Director of Directions Investment Holding Co. Which is under the chairmanship of H.H Sheikh Mohammed bin Sultan Bin Hamdan Al Nayhan.

Rachel Pether: (01:00)
Zulfiquar's Family business spreads across Asia, and the Middle East in the fields of real estate, hospitality, and trading. He co-founded Los Angeles based entertainment company, Cinemoi, which focuses on artificial intelligence, and virtual reality, and he's also a major shareholder and publicly traded, Encanto Potash Corp. Zulfiquar is involved in various social entrepreneurship projects, he's the chairman of Blue Sky Village, and he also sits on the board of Beto Chang, which focuses on philanthropy using blockchain technology. Lastly, he's a board member of world defense holdings an ING Robotics based out of Montreal, Canada. Zulfiquar, it's a real pleasure having you with us today.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (01:44)
Thank you Rachel, and thank you SALT Talks for having me on SALT Talks today. I hope we keep it salty and spicy today, and not boring. I look forward, yeah.

Rachel Pether: (01:55)
Is that a promise, or a challenge, I'm not sure? But when I was reading your bio, I subject down quite a lot. You've done a lot of things throughout your career, but before we begin, just tell me a bit about your personal background, and how you ended up where you are today.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (02:11)
Sure, I'll be happy to. So I'm predominantly a hospitality graduate in various countries. So I started off with studying in my own city of Burke, which is Mumbai in India. And I studied hospitality at one of the heavily competing and a very, you know how Indian institutes are, there's a lot of competition for, see if you have to fight with perhaps 4 million students who compete with you, but that's a good way to bring up yourself. And after that, I went on to study more hospitality in Switzerland. And the idea behind me studying hospitality was not because I wanted to be a chef, or a cook, or something, but the idea was more or less to develop hotels, and evaluated real estate, when I come back to my family business, because as a predominant thing, as a family, we are a real estate company based in India.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (03:04)
And I wanted to bring my expertise, and not just buried in buildings, and mortars and fixing the mortars, but to add some landmark to the location, and to that particular street or that particular city. So that was the reason why I wanted to study more of hospitality. So I went on to do masters from University of Cornell. And before that, I was at Swiss Hospitality School in Switzerland, and also went to London for University of London, as well as University of Derby, in the Derbyshire of course. And after all of these education, I worked with the Intercontinental Hotel Group, I worked with Starwood, I worked with higher chain of hotels and, in a very short span of time, I climbed the corporate hierarchy, because I was youngest to have that kind of qualification, and at the same time, ready to be kicked to different cities. So my management would be more than happy to let me take a transfer rather than asking Joe who was already 50 years of age at my level of designation, who's got family and can't move much easily.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (04:07)
So in like a span of 40 years in the U.S I was in the Midwest, in Chicago, I was in Tennessee Nashville, I was in New Orleans, in Louisiana, I don't know how many of you all know about that place, but it's a beautiful jazz music place. I was in Los Angeles, I was in Miami, and then finally, I came back to India briefing, and I started with the hospitality, and real estate consulting. I realized there was a lot of brands who wanted to move into India at that time. It was a buzzing economy back then, I'm talking about early 2005 and 2006. That's when all the investments were coming into India, the private equity players were coming in. That's the year when all the Morgan Stanley's of the world are moving into invest money. So I thought it was an exciting space to start a career with consulting in the Asian economies, and the emerging markets.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (04:55)
That went pretty well for me, and the turning point, what brought me into the UAE was one of the assignments for the hotel development, which I'm not supposed to talk about, but I went to meet the promoter, and they just negotiated a deal with one of the brands. And I happened to ask him if I can jump onto this assignment, and perhaps help him save some on the agreements. And he's like, what can you do? I said, I wasn't the other side, the side which is dealing with you today, at some point I used to be on that side, and they agreed to allow me to negotiate on their behalf. And we realized I could seriously save a good 78% for them. And that immediately made me blue-eyed boy of one of our own family members.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (05:37)
And that was my beginning with the whole of family as an advisor, as someone who would be investment manager for them. With that as a career beginning in the UAE, it was early 2011, 2010-2011, that's when I started. And after that went on to find, found a couple of other large companies, which again I moved on from them. The idea was to encourage FDI into UAE, because I realized there was a big gap between people who wanted to come into business in UAE and they're bringing their investment. And I felt as an investment manager, if I have to invest money, I don't have to go into another country and invest, I rather could bring those companies into UAE, invest with them in UAE, which is the home for me, which there I have a better control over the market dynamics, and ones that rapport and once the partnership sets in, in the right way, then perhaps I could go with those companies to different countries, and explore partnerships. So the idea was from then on, from your country, come to UAE and from UAE, we go to the world.

Rachel Pether: (06:42)
That's great. Yeah. The sort of thing about the UAE being a gateway to the rest of the world does come up again and again. So I would like to touch on that a bit later, as well as the work, that you're actually doing under the chairmanship of his Highness. But you mentioned about your family business in India, what sort of things are they investing in? Do you think that the experience, and your personal family business has helped with working with the Sheikh, which I guess in some senses is also a family business?

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (07:12)
Yes, absolutely it does. And so a little bit about our family is that, we migrated from Iran almost 300 years ago into Bombay, which is the place where our family originates from, and the first sheriff during the bumpy presidency during the British rule was also our family. And we always were aggressive , and very much in the forefront in terms of business, and politics. And we started our career almost 150 years ago with business, was more of in the steel, and general trading of commodities, and land development. So what we see a Palm Jumeirah in Mumbai, in Dubai today, was something we developed in Mumbai in 1980s. So we have a fairly good amount of experience of dredging, and creating cities out of water. And we also known as pioneer for social housing, and slum rehabilitation. If you know the city of Mumbai, it has got a lot of slums, and a lot issues of poor hygiene, and poor housing quality.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (08:11)
So our family decided at some point that we're not just going to be building buildings, and adding money to our coffers, but at the same time, we'll do a lot of social housing as well, letting me develop homes for poor people, and upgrade those lifestyles, and upgrade those land landmarks, and create a beautiful city. So we did well, and we rehabilitate more than 40,000 families so far. So we are known for our construction, we are known for our business in the business community we come from. So it's going pretty well. And my idea when I wanted to join the family business was, to build more assets that we can retain and hold, because more or less, whatever we developed was a residential and commercial, which we just sold, because in India it's not a very renter's market, more of a market where people just buy it out you know.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (08:58)
They love to buy real estate, and gold of course. So, but I wanted to come back and build more hotels, build more malls, and value added real estate, where we could just look at longterm yield returns, and then create a readout of it and list store rates, that was my idea of doing things. Which I did for some time, I still continue to do, we are developing one of the tallest residential building in India right now, it's a 91 story building in a landmark location in Mumbai. And that was again, a good experience for me as well, because I was involved in planning from day one, and sales and marketing, and we did pretty well with that project. It's almost complete now, so we are up for another challenge.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (09:36)
So yeah, the knowledge that I gained from family business certainly helped me since childhood I've seen master plans, and how those master plans were executed, how the politics was mainly managed, how the finances were raised, how the social stakeholders were taken care of, how we managed, and challenges with the technology, availability of resources, and also I've seen that whole nine yards, and legalities, and the environmental concerns. So the whole PESTLE analysis, the whole BST level was taught to me since the beginning of my life.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (10:08)
So I never believed in SWOT analysis by the way, I never think any trait, or any weakness can be an obstacle if you have the right political alignment, if you have the right financing in place, and investment, and a capital. If you have stakeholders happy with you, and of course, if you've taken care of the legalities, and the environment, and the sustainability part. I don't think anything can be a weakness, it's all about execution, so, yeah, that's my take on that. So it definitely helps me yes, and today when I manage royal affairs with H.H Sheikh, and the team, and also going to help companies, the business just comes naturally to me, the moment I see the information memorandum, I know what to do with this company, and I know how to execute this business. Yeah. That helps.

Rachel Pether: (10:53)
I really want to pick up on the pieces that you mentioned on the sound social housing, and investing with impact as well, because I know this is an area of focus for you, and something you're very passionate about. But let's talk about the types of work that you're doing under the chairmanship of His Highness, are you looking predominantly at investments, or you're looking at bringing companies to the UAE? What are some of your focus areas there?

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (11:17)
So three things, one is of course investment, but like I said, I like to invest with companies where I have a complete, I won't say I'm a control freak, but I like to have my hands wrapped around it, you know. Like I don't believe anyone should have a right either it's my money, or it's someone else's money, nobody has a right to like play with it, or do anything which is called injustice. So I like to be, to start with, I like to work on a secure return kind of a model, where I have my downside protected for my capital, and anything on top, the distribution waterfall, I leave it more in the favor of the entrepreneur, so that he's more incentivized to work hard for the project. So that's my investment philosophy if you ask me so, but I look at it investing more for bringing in FDI into UAE, and once we have set up the businesses with this company, then I want to go with them in the biggest countries, like I said in the beginning.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (12:14)
So investment yes, is very much a focus, then also there're a lot of companies will reach out to us when they look for a stronger partner in UAE, especially, you know, so, and they all feel, and somehow have a belief that having a strong Royal family office will definitely help them to navigate the whole nine yards of the system. So nothing wrong with it, I mean, we are as other everyone else, and we openly help them, and commit to supporting these companies to get all the business in place, and to attract the market, to attract the right kind of capital. And then from UAE to enter into Africa, to enter into the middle East region, because we see a lot of traction coming in from Egypt, and the rest of the North African countries, you know, they're booming very well.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (12:59)
Just today morning, I was evaluating one of the projects from Tunisia, one of the smart cities that is coming up, and I was a surprise to see that the young population is so aspirational. They have a good education now, getting very good on education, the men, women ratio of, the sex ratio is very good. The economic diversity is very good, the demographics are very educated, and they have a very good future in place. So yeah, so Middle East, North Africa, and East Africa is booming. So that's what creates more opportunity for companies to set up their base in the UAE. And just to have some time back, I was in one of the webinar, and the more chaos people see worldwide, the more they want to come to UAE, especially right now is dealing with Chinese, and Indian companies. So the Chinese have a problem that nobody wants to touch made in China product anymore, and Indians have a problem that they cannot import Chinese goods anymore.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (13:51)
So they are not able to manufacture, because most of their raw materials came from China. Of course, eventually they will evolve the whole local ecosystem, but by then, longterm everybody dies. So it's the short term survival, is a strategy for them, but we are helping these companies to migrate into, and set up something in UAE to our royal support. But that, again is becoming a very important task for us, and tech and, sustainable projects, emerging technology. We are about to announce our joint venture with one of the very larger sovereign fund for the Middle East, and UAE, and GCC strategy, so we'll be announcing that. That will add a lot of, it's a third party investment, but it definitely be routed through our company, and our holding company. So that would really add to us, in a sense that we be now able to actively invest much larger than what we would actually investing as a family office. So that is going to be our focus area as well.

Rachel Pether: (14:47)
And so when you're looking at these investments, you mentioned smart cities, and other emerging technologies, the SME area in the UAE is obviously a very staffed one in terms of capture, I think about 3.5% of bank financing, for example, goes towards SMEs. What are you doing to support those companies in the SME space?

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (15:11)
Yeah. Very interestingly you touched upon the SME, because last few months I've been focusing a lot on the SMEs, and the SME outreach program that we have created for, especially for emerging market companies, from Indonesia, India, Nepal, countries like Vietnam, and even Bangladesh, you know. There're lot of these small small companies, which have a lot of scalability possible. So we are helping these companies, and we are providing them with all of the possible approvals, and licenses that they need. And we are helping them create an ecosystem for themselves in the UAE. And that's the best way to bring back employment in the UAE right now, because a lot of people are losing jobs, and that's not a very happy situation. I mean, on LinkedIn, and social media my inbox is full of job applications, and I feel bad, because I cannot employ all of them.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (16:00)
So it was in a way I wanted to do some things so that I can bring more and more employment. And if you look at the SME, they actually drive all the possible growth, in terms of housing, in terms of everything that, so FMCG, consumer durables, everything succeeds if SMEs are growing at a rapid pace, and the right way. So we have to doing quite a lot, we are helping them with the adequate financing, we are in fact helping them also to go and trade in Africa, if they have contracts from public, or private sector. We are helping them even with trading find trade finance what we call it to our limits, as well as we have couple of funds which only focus on trade finance with us. So we are helping SMEs to that effect. Yeah. Those are some of the things we're-

Rachel Pether: (16:45)
And you mentioned the hospitality industry. I know you have a lot of exposure to this with the family business, and also with His Highness, that's obviously been one industry that's been hit very hard with COVID, and the lack of travelers, and tourists. How has your family business, and the, His Highness' office adapted to this, and what are some of the changes that you've had to make?

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (17:14)
Well, in the His Highness office, the best thing is that it's a patient money, it can wait, and it is not in a rush to repatriate itself, because it's a legacy investment. For our family business, yes, again are not highly leveraged, so it's a very conservative family of mine, which doesn't believe in borrowing, they believe that their money, is their money. And it's recently just, they invited a couple of foreign players institutions to participate in equity, but otherwise they've always been homegrown, and self-driven company. So we're not very much in a soup, but I would say, yeah, situations are tight, especially the real estate sector is totally, I would say in a very, very bad shape in India right now, especially the luxury market, and we predominantly are known for luxury market.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (18:05)
So luxury market has taken a lot of hit, but just seven years ago, we decided to diversify into affordable luxury where , we decided to sell smaller units focused on very small ticket size, under a million, because in Bombay, in a city like Mumbai, each luxury apartment could be a million, or two, or more sometimes. So we decided to be within a million dollar limit, in fact half a million kind of limits, and provide them with a lovely building, with great facilities, gymnasiums and everything that a family would acquire, a family of four perhaps. So we decided to design houses, smaller houses, smaller apartments, so that, but good locations, and with all facilities, so that people are tempted to buy smaller apartments. That kind of worked very well for us. So that way we were able to save ourselves at the Royal office, but there was not much of an impact. In fact, now that I'm driving most of the investment initiatives, my focus is all going to be investment in emerging technologies, and agriculture and agri-related businesses.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (19:08)
So, very limited exposure to heavy Capex, very limited, I don't have any liking for real estate sector anymore. Some real estate, yes, some quality real estate, yes, which is income-producing, and which is, which has great tenants in place, which I know will last forever. And those are the projects that I'm highlighting, and taking interesting in, but otherwise not going into Greenfield projects, not going into futuristic long-term projects, but perhaps if there is a running office building, with a good 6-7% yield, I'm not very greedy, I'm happy with that, that gives you some realistic portfolio active. And of course when the market improves, you go in cash on it. But at the moment, it's going to be serious focus on emerging technologies, AI-based companies, or FinTech related companies. And with the new farm bill in India, we want to now focus a lot on agriculture culture sector, and retail. Yes, that's going to be the focus now.

Rachel Pether: (20:04)
Well, that's a really great segue actually, because I do want to go into, more depth on the impact investment path, but you mentioned some of the focus areas for India, and we've actually had a question coming in from the audience asking for your current views on the Indian market. I know you mentioned that you were doing some things, and the kind of $1 million affordable luxury range, but what's your current view on the Indian market? Is that still a very robust growth story?

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (20:32)
Well, if you initiate a project today, by the time you complete, it's going to be submitted between 24 months to 36 months, that's usually the time that you complete a project in, by then you will be in a very good situation. So if you're launching a real estate project, I would advise, you launch it in affordable luxury segment, don't go for a very high end, and don't go for the social housing, because there's already too many players in there, but affordable luxury is the sector. India is predominantly a self grown country, self grown market. It doesn't depend a lot on imports, it doesn't depend a lot on exports. So it's an economy within itself, so the most important factor is the political stability, and of course COVID has really made a big difference.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (21:20)
I may have my reservations about the current government in India, but this is not a political forum, or a debate, so I will stay away from political discussion. But that is certainly some decisions which has not gone very well down with the industry. And that has led to certain impact, which is, I would say a sort of destructive, we Indians sometime can get self destructive ourselves, we're the smartest race on this world, and we are self destructive sometimes. So I think, but I think in the long-term, the market is very strong, and there's a huge potential. But in the short term, yes, there is a small pain. It just how you plan your financing, and don't go too much on, heavily exposed on debt. And even if it's a debt, make sure your cost of borrowing is under control, because the margins have been shrinking a little bit. So you may not have a big cushion on your earnings after paying such a heavy debt.

Rachel Pether: (22:11)
I know there was a big push a number of years ago to encourage more financial investment into India, and I think that's, that's worked quite well to some degree. Do you think that, that pace of investment is likely to continue? And I appreciate that you don't want to go into too much of the political discussion, but how do you sort of say that growth, and traction of investment playing out when the world sort of returns to normal post COVID?

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (22:42)
I think the recovery in India is going to be a case for a year, China equally, you're going to take six months to a year to recover. I believe the fastest to recover would be the developing countries, because they do not depend on exports a lot. So it's easier for them to recuperate within the country. So India, yes, but in a year. But I think the Western countries, especially in the developed markets, like the U.S, and the UK, and the European world, I think it will be a slow recovery for them, simply because they depended a lot on exports. And the countries who were importing from them are actually the worst effected.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (23:21)
So it's going to be a little slow recovery, but like I said, I don't believe in threats, and weaknesses, and any kind of negativity, I believe in positivity. So there are a lot of opportunities actually that has come out away from Europe, some from Americans, and we are exploring, but again, not going very heavy on real estate, going very much on FMCG, going very heavy on consumer durables, we are going heavy on emerging technologies, which can be scaled very well in our part of the world, because that's what we can control. Like I said, I like to invest, I'm not a control freak, but I like to be sitting next to the driver, and work hand in hand, you know? So yeah, that's the, but I think that the company should be somewhere between 12 months, it's eight to 12 months.

Rachel Pether: (24:12)
No, that's great. And I'm with you on that Zulfiquar, I've been called a control for it before, and I took that as a compliment, so I understand your positioning there. We've had another question coming in from the audience, which I think you've answered in part with what you've just said about Europe. But the question was, I was wondering for such big markets and countries like UAE, and India, are these funds interested in investing in developed markets, IET European markets. And I think you did touch on that in your previous answer, but maybe you could talk about specifically in Europe, some of the sectors that you find most interesting.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (24:50)
So, I I'm looking at some industrial projects in industrial companies, and corporations in fact in Europe, one such is an opportunity that we just gave a final term sheet to, which is a pharmaceutical opportunity from Germany. I think that's a very good opportunity, and the valuations are very sensible. I would not say it's a steep downwards for them, or a great deal for us, but it's a value for money. And I most importantly believe that that company will do very well in India ecosystem, and GCC ecosystem, because more and more people are spending on health, and so precaution has become more important than just a cure. So people are building to pop those multivitamins, and now more and more, the vitamin C has become a part of daily lives. So the health care is going to become the preventive healthcare basically. So that's another area of interest that I'm focusing on right now, preventive healthcare.

Rachel Pether: (25:51)
That's great, thank-

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (25:52)
Europe is playing an important role, because European companies have some of the great industrial projects come in the pharmaceutical industry, from a quality pharmaceutical comes from the area, so we are focusing on that.

Rachel Pether: (26:02)
So let's talk more about the impact investing phase, and firstly, I mean, it's great work that you're doing on this female empowerment, so I think that's really impressive everything you're doing in that space. But on impact investing more broadly, it's obviously very important for families to leave behind some sort of legacy, and not just financial for the next generation. So perhaps you can tell me more about some other initiatives that you're doing in the impact investing space, and why this is so important for you.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (26:36)
Yeah. I mean, I believe like we have to invest our money, we have to invest our capital, but if that investment can create more jobs, and if it can make life easier, and better for as many people as possible. So that's one of the core principles, which I look at a project to invest. So I am not a very big fan of men on mars, or men on sartun, sorry, I mean this is just personally me. I believe even after 200 years of industrialization, we haven't solved the basic necessities of humans on this planet yet. So I think it's time to actually focus on that. So what are the sectors? And everybody's running for that urban buy of a marketplace, which is just 35% in most of the markets, especially in the emerging markets.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (27:20)
Like the other day, some brand approach for partnering with them for India strategy, and they're like, Oh, the market looks very cluttered. I said, no, you're not looking at the 65% of the rural market, you're only looking at the 35% urban market, and urban incomes are shrinking, while you can put more money in the hands of the rural market, which is 65%. And like, how can we do that? I said, let's go and start agriculture, going back to basics sometime helps, you know. It's very basic sector agriculture, but what we are doing. So, and I have created a whole ecosystem around it, it's not just, it's a random thought for me that all let's go now to villages, no, it's not like that. The last five to seven years of my career, I have invested in a fertilizer company, I've invested in the potash, which is one of the very important component of fertilizer, I've invested in biostimulants, I've invested in seeds, and processing units. So I've done a complete backward integration for agriculture sector.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (28:12)
And now, what we're doing is we come up with a very good scheme where we go into the farmers, we're telling them, okay, we'll give you everything that you need for your production and your cultivation, and your harvest, we will buy on a contract with you, and we'll pay you double the amount that the government pays you. So there is no corruption, there is no allegation of any wrongdoing, because we are paying anyways more than the government pays them. Right? So, but what we're doing is we're cutting down the middlemen, and because all the raw materials are owned by us, it's like our production, and our companies. So we have a very negligible cost in terms of cost of cultivation. So there's a cost efficiency, and yet, because we have a technology and direct sourcing, we are able to cut down the complete middle market thereby saving almost 45% of the cost. And that benefit we're passing to the farmer, and the rural areas, and at the same time to the urban market, which is the consumer. And the extra money, we are putting it back into the communities for healthcare, for education, for housing.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (29:08)
So you are actually creating economy with that 65% of the pocket, and not just on that 35% in the urban area, where everybody is fighting, the Gucci of the world, designers of the world, everybody's fighting in that. I don't want to be in that clutter, I want to go where nobody's going, which is a much larger area, which is 65% of the market place. There is a light activities with agriculture, and the margins can be higher depending on how you processing, and international exports, and stuff, so that can really help, now that we can even grow in deserts. And we see half of China being desert, half of Northwest, part of India being desert, most part of Africa have absolutely no water. Even in those situations, we can grow using a modern agricultural technologies. So why not invest in that? So that nobody goes hungry? You know, that's my vision, that's my thought process when it comes to investing. Yeah.

Rachel Pether: (30:01)
And so I think that water question is actually a really important one. You know, we live in a part of the world that has very scarce, fresh water supply. What are you doing on the waterfront, and how are you doing the turning unfarmable land to farmable.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (30:21)
So the're a lot of these new innovations, like just four days ago, I saw one very innovative technology. So, what they do develop is they have developed these paver blocks, which you put on pathways and walkways, and these are something which, so the major problem is we're not storing enough running water. You know, like most of the countries of the world barring some desert regions, which don't get rainfall, but otherwise, most of the regions of the world, they get good amount of rainfall, but still the water goes down the drain, and it goes into the ocean. So there's no one, no ways to conserve that, and in, especially in emerging markets, and developing, and under developed countries, there's no such enough investment available to kind of actually create those kinds of reservoirs, it costs a lot of money.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (31:04)
So, simply if you made, make roads made of these blocks, the road, these blocks have ability to absorb water, and it takes it to the underground water reservoir in a central location, and it gives the water fresh for at least 12 years. So these are some of the innovative ideas that we're implementing, and agriculture, we just looked at one of the Israeli company the other day, they're number one in drip irrigation. And if it takes you one gallon of water, then you just need a hundred ML of water compared to that. It's just the way you irrigate the whole land. So yeah, water is important, but the absorption of water, it takes its own time. So you pour a gallon of water on a plant, it's not going to absorb all the water. It's like, you can't drink a gallon of water at one time, but within a period of one week you can drink a gallon of water, right? So, that's how it is. Yeah.

Rachel Pether: (31:55)
That's fascinating. [crosstalk 00:31:59] You did touch on looking at Israel, and investing in an Israeli company, maybe you can talk a little bit about the Abraham Accord, and if Israel is now a market that you're looking to more intently as a result of that.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (32:14)
Well, like I said, I'm Indian as well, so I've always looked at Israel and Cinemoi, the company that you talked about, it's actually an Israeli founder. And so, I'm not new to working with Israelis, and my Jewish friends, in fact, 70% of my partners are Jewish origin. And we sit down, and when we look at the global conflict we laugh on it, because we feel technically there is no conflict between us. It's like I was using this very apt example like, I mean, Abraham Accord is basically the cord for the Jewish, the Christians, and the Muslims. So, we all believe in the same God at the end of the day, so it's like, we all alike, and we believe that Domino's has the best pizza in the world, it's just we have a problem with the delivery boy, so that's the only conflict we have, and the day we settled down on that conflict I think we are good to go.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (33:06)
But I have a strong connection with a lot of my Jewish friends, and I believe they are just like you and me, and they want happiness, they want education, they want freedom, they want peace, and so as me, I want the same things in life. And some of the initiatives on cybersecurity, on automotive bagels, what I call AVs, and some of their drone technologies that we're working on, that you read about ING Robotics, we are working with some of our Jewish partners in that, it's a company found in Canada, of course. And I believe we have one of the best drone systems in the world. I cannot, of course get into the technicality here, not dependent for that, but definitely it's a very smart technology. We are working on smart cities, not just smart cities, but super smart cities. And there is a whole explanation to that as to how it can become super smart cities, which is absolutely aligned with the sustainable development goals.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (33:59)
And I think that Abraham Cord, Abraham Accord, will actually open more opportunities for everyone in the region, because the most important consideration for every investor was, Oh, it's a hot region, it's a volatile region. Now somebody says it's a volatile region and your eyebrows really, you really think so? It's not, because the major region reason for conflict is solved now. So that has gone politically very strong message, that we are ready to make these no matter what it takes. And that is going to work very well for the whole region as a whole, not just for UAE. So people in the neighborhood were not very happy with the decision, I don't know why, because it's actually going to help them and every one of us. So in fact, everyone should have worked towards it. And I salute the vision of H.H Sheik Mohammed bin Said, and of course, H.H Sheik Mohammed bin Rashid, for kind of taking this bold initiative. And this is going to be a very long-term, and it holds a very bright future for the GCC and Middle East actually, and for the world, I would say rather.

Rachel Pether: (35:00)
Yeah, I completely agree with all of your points, except for the point you made about Domino's pizza being the best in the world. Rest of your points, I agreed with. We have time for one more question, so I'll just give you a slightly easier one to finish on. Perhaps you could talk about how you think your training in hospitality, and that that sort of customer outward focus has helped you in your career, and in your life to date.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (35:26)
Yeah, I learned one thing like it's about, it's the 10%, which is the situation, and 90% is your reaction to that situation. So in the hospitality, I always learned about you attitude. So whenever I saw an angry customer, or a guest, you know, all it took was an appreciation, and a little bit of a care, a little bit of affection, and put yourself in their shoes, and think how are they feeling in that situation? You may feel like, Oh, how can I do this? And what can I do to make this guy happy? So if you leave that attitude and rather think, what is that that he wants, and how can I make him happy? And that will really go along way.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (36:10)
So in my business dealings, I always, so whenever I prepare my presentation, I don't prepare for what I want, I prepare for what the other side wants from me. And if I'm going to give him what he wants, he'll automatically give me what I want, because that's how you win in business. So it's called the you-attitude, and I always carry that you-attitude with me. So that's something I learned a lot, and we were taught, no matter how much the pressure, you always will smile, and no matter how much the other side is stupid, or wrong, you'll always still smile. So, that always helps trust me.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (36:44)
I've come across a lot of people, and not everybody's happy to see you grow and progress, but you take them in your stride, and that's what I do, and this is part of my training. And I mean, I can go on telling you the goodness of the hospitality, and service industry, but service industry just makes you for life, because your business is not done on the office table, but on the dinner table when you order a drink, and that's why we have our mastery, because we are trained in hospitality. So when you ask the next time for dinner, I'm going to suggest to you Alsace Gewurztraminer wine with lowriter oysters. So I'm sure that you're going to be more than happier, to have that kind of a starter with a lovely wine. So, I mean, that's how we are trained to dress to kill, and smile to impress.

Rachel Pether: (37:34)
Well, that's great. That's a very optimistic, positive note to end on. So, Zulfiquar I just like to thank you so much for your time today, it's been a pleasure speaking to you as always.

H.E. Zulfiquar Ghadiyali: (37:43)
My pleasure Rachel, thank you for inviting me. I've always been a big fan of you, and I think it's my fan moment today. So, Rachel thank you for inviting me in this lovely interview. And again, Joe thank you for helping coordinate this thing, and everyone who posts their questions, and people who are listening to us, thank you again for your time, and attention. And wish you all the best with your health, and wherever you are, please be safe this year, just save yourself as Jack Ma said, the biggest profit of this year is you are safe, and you're alive, that's most important.

Ryan Williams: How Fintech is Changing the Way People Invest in Real Estate | SALT Talks #68

“I’ve always chosen to see problems and challenges as opportunities.“

Ryan Williams founded the technology-enabled investment platform Cadre in 2014. Cadre is an online marketplace that provides institutions and individuals access to previously inaccessible quality real estate and alternative investment opportunities. As Chief Executive Officer of Cadre, Ryan has raised more than $130mm of corporate capital backed by investors such as Goldman Sachs, Andreessen Horowitz, Ford Foundation, Khosla Ventures, Thrive Capital, General Catalyst, and others.

A true entrepreneur, Ryan is not a “conventional founder or CEO.” Many people take the first step from recognizing a problem to identifying a solution, but most fall off when trying to bring their idea to life. Ryan applied this philosophy to his first company, where he worked with embroiderers in his area to buy products at a fraction of the area’s established retailers.

At the time of filming, Cadre Cash had just been launched. Investors on Cadre’s real estate investment platform can earn an annualized 3% reward on their cash, 4x higher than leading banks and 60x the national average. “This is all part of our mission to provide more individual investors with greater access to financial products that drive their futures forward.”

LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE

SPEAKER

Ryan Williams.jpeg

Ryan Williams

Co-Founder & CEO

Cadre

MODERATOR

anthony_scaramucci.jpeg

Anthony Scaramucci

Founder & Managing Partner

SkyBridge

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

John Darsie: (00:07)
Hello, and good morning everyone. Welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is John Darsie. I'm the managing director of SALT, which is a global thought leadership forum at the intersection of finance, technology and public policy. SALT Talks are a digital interview series that we started during this work from home period with the world's foremost investors, creators and thinkers. And our guest today combines all those aspects into one, into a fascinating startup that's really democratizing access to investment opportunities that have typically only been available to institutional investors. More really trying to do during this SALT Talk series is replicate the experience that we provided at our global conference series, the SALT Conference, and that is to provide our audience a window into the minds of subject matter experts, as well as to provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future. And today we're very pleased to welcome Ryan Williams to SALT Talks.

John Darsie: (01:01)
Ryan is the co-founder and CEO of Cadre which is a technology platform providing individual investors with access to the kind of commercial real estate investment opportunities that were previously only available to institutional style investors. The company currently owns and manages about a $3 billion portfolio of properties. And today Cadre has delivered a net IRR of better than 18% on its portfolio realizations. It's a very unique company and Ryan is a unique founder. He grew up in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and he began his entrepreneurial career at the tender age of 14 when he founded a sports apparel company that he later sold. He worked his way through Harvard and during his senior year at Harvard when the financial crisis hit, Ryan started a company that invested in single-family distress properties, mainly in the Southeast. Like I said, his company acquired more than 500 properties mainly in the Southeast United States.

John Darsie: (01:55)
And as a part of building that business, he caught the attention of some of the major investment firms on Wall Street. And he joined the Telecom group at Goldman Sachs before moving on to the private equity real estate division of Blackstone. He then launched Cadre in 2014 and has built it into one of the leading real estate technology startups today. He is about the same age as me. So I'm feeling very unaccomplished right about now. At 32 years old, Ryan has won widespread recognition as one of America's most promising young CEOs. Appearing on the cover of Forbes Magazine last year. He's described his self in the past as reticent to talk publicly about his experience as a black tech founder, but in the wake of the George Floyd incident this summer and subsequent protests that followed that, he's emerged as a strong voice for economic and social justice.

John Darsie: (02:42)
A reminder, if you have any questions for Ryan during today's SALT Talk, you can enter them in the Q and A box at the bottom of your video screen. And hosting today's interview is Anthony Scaramucci, who is the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge Capital, a global alternative investment firm. He's also the chairman of SALT and another quick anecdote that I'm sure they might get into during this conference, the chairman of the investment committee at Cadre, Mike Fascitelli, once had the privilege at Goldman Sachs of firing Anthony. So I'm sure Ryan and Anthony can have a fun conversation about that, but with that I'm going to turn it over to Anthony for the interview.

Anthony Scaramucci: (03:14)
Ryan, you see you're missing the sibling rivalry that's going on in here. Okay, so you had to just bring up the fact that Mike fired me. So at least the good news is when John Kelly fired me from the White House, Ryan, I was prepared for it because I had been fired once before.

Ryan Williams: (03:31)
There you go, good training.

Anthony Scaramucci: (03:33)
And this is a learning lesson that everybody out there, when you're getting fired by somebody build a friendship. Mike's one of my best friends. It turns out that General Kelly and I have become very close as well. But I want to go to you Ryan, you had an amazing career. I had the chance to see you speak at the Forbes 30, Under 30 up in Boston a few years ago. Obviously you've spoken at our conference, but I haven't asked you this question, and I'm very curious about this because you are the classic entrepreneur and something happens in your childhood where the light bulb goes off and you're like, "I'm going to run my own business. I'm going to build my own enterprise." And I want you to tell us when that was, where it was, when did that moment happen for you?

Ryan Williams: (04:15)
Yeah. Thank you Anthony for having me, I'm really excited to spend some more time talking about myself, but also about our business and what we've been up to. You're right. I thought a lot about what drives me, thought a lot about when I kind of got on that entrepreneurial flywheel so to speak, and kind of going back to my childhood, I didn't really grow up around a lot of money or frankly had a lot of role models in the business world that would provide a clear path to building my own business but I think what it was, was I've always chosen to see problems and challenges as opportunities.

Ryan Williams: (04:57)
And I was fortunate that I had a family that definitely encouraged me to think about the what if and having this mentality of questioning the status quo, asking why not. And so I think as a kid, I brought that mentality to a lot of things. It probably bothered my family when I was really young. But as I grew a little bit older, I started thinking about these personal pain points and challenges that I experienced and faced. And that's when that natural entrepreneurial streak began emerging. And the first business I ended up starting it started with that question, why can't we change this situation? And the situation there was I didn't have a lot of money growing up. I played sports. I didn't want to pay an exorbitant amount of money to buy a Nike or an Adidas headband and wristband when people still wore those things. And so I said, "Why can't I find a cheaper product that-"

Anthony Scaramucci: (05:58)
Ryan, some of us are still waring those things. I just want to point that out to you. Okay. Go easy on the old folks here, go ahead.

Ryan Williams: (06:04)
... it'll come back Anthony at some point. Yeah. I mean, everything does, right? But what I said is, "I want to figure out a way where I can identify a lower cost product and actually have something that represents me." And a lot of people I think do take that leap from, okay, here's an issue to all right, how do I change this issue? Not a lot of people take that next step forward to how do I bring that to life? And I think that's for me, that was the first time where I said, "All right, I actually want to make this happen. I want to implement something different. I want to change the status quo." So I ended up going and speaking to a bunch of different embroiderers in the area. I went to effectively a version of the [inaudible 00:06:48] district like they have up here in the city and I was able to buy these products 10%, 20% of what the retail stores were charging and initially just for myself, eventually I started creating custom headbands and wristbands for teammates and friends.

Ryan Williams: (07:06)
Grew that business pretty significantly, won a bunch of awards, was able to exit that company. And that gave me the confidence when I then was fortunate enough to get to Harvard. And again, with Harvard, I was told by a guidance counselor, "No shot." And again, I said, "Why not?" I was fortunate to be accepted. And when I got there, that was like a playground of resources. It was a playground of opportunities. And I wouldn't have been able to launch the real estate business I started in 2008 when again, I noticed there were all these foreclosed homes up and down at my best friend and roommate street in Atlanta and said, "Why can't I invest in these areas and stabilize these communities." But I wouldn't have been able to get to that point had I not, when I was younger, acknowledged that I had this mentality of looking at challenges as opportunities, but then taking the step, building the confidence, building that muscle and I think, again, the essence of entrepreneurship is about how you view the world and then being willing to take risks.

Ryan Williams: (08:10)
I mean, you've done it in your career, Anthony as well. And I think as you build that muscle of risk-taking and fearlessness, it kind of builds on itself. And I'm fortunate again to be in a position now where we're running the leading real estate tech platform for individual investors. I'm not a conventional founder CEO but I built up a lot of that resiliency from an early age.

Anthony Scaramucci: (08:39)
Well, I mean, I think it's attributed to you, but I think that there's a resilience that you need to get to where you are. And there's also a level of projection that you need as well, which we try to teach people that are aspiring entrepreneurs, that you have to believe in yourself. And I have a 21 year old son in the music industry, so you got to act 31 men. You can't act 21. Get your brain on 31. And so I really appreciate what you're doing and I admire you. Talk about Cadre for a second. Let's give the high concept. Let's pretend that people with us today don't know Cadre, which is a phenomenal company, and I want to get them to know it, give us the elevator pitch on Cadre?

Ryan Williams: (09:24)
Sure. Yeah. Cadre was founded almost six years ago and I founded it really to lower the barriers of entry to institutional real estate. Commercial real estate is one of the most important asset classes to own to build long-term wealth, but it's also one of the most opaque, expensive and a liquid asset classes as well. And what I saw was that, from my time at Blackstone, there was just so much wealth being created, but being created for equity, sovereign wealth funds. Nothing wrong with sovereigns, we love sovereigns, but it was a very small subset of our global economy. And most individuals were just significantly under allocated. Had no idea how to get into alternatives. And I believe from my own personal experience as never being anywhere near this asset class growing up, that I was uniquely equipped to build a platform and a model that would unlock access to institutional real estate, allow more people to invest with transparency, efficiency and the quiddity.

Ryan Williams: (10:28)
And so that's what I decided to do with Cadre. Through technology we've been able to create a platform where individual investors can go online and invest in an individual real estate asset, not this building or multi-family property or a portfolio of real estate investments. And so in summary what we're doing is making real estate investments more accessible through a pretty frictionless technology interface [inaudible 00:10:54] investment platform that prides ourselves on our bedding process and we're allowing thousands of individuals and institutions to be able to invest in real estate with the click of a button. And we think this is the future of how people will be accessing real estate and other alternatives. And the goal is to make alternatives less alternative.

Anthony Scaramucci: (11:13)
So Charles Schwab has this advertisement that talks about stock slices, where for $5 you can buy a little bit of Amazon and a little bit of Facebook and so forth. Is cadre a little bit like that? Like let's say I had $5,000 and I wanted to sort of own a sliver of commercial real estate, is that something I can do through Cadre?

Ryan Williams: (11:32)
Yeah, same concept. So, effectively what we do is we allow people to, if they want to pick and choose thousands of dollars, they can invest in an individual asset or a millions. And we've had people, Goldman Sachs put it in more than 250 million into their own portfolio of real estate. But you can pick, or... And this is what we recommend to folks, you can invest in a diversified manner because the reality is like the equity markets, most individuals shouldn't be picking and choosing. And I think you've seen that with a lot of the recent market volatility. And so we allow people to basically build a custom curated portfolio of real estate that we diversify at Cadre. We got Mike as our chairman of our investment committee, Allen Smith, our president who was formerly president CEO of Four Seasons and Prudential, Dan Rosenbloom at acquisitions [inaudible 00:12:23] in Chicago.

Ryan Williams: (12:24)
So we have that in-house team, that's doing the bedding, the underwriting, we have a backstop. So, we've raised a couple 100 million dollars and it's been reported that it's the [Soros 00:12:33] Fund that's given us that backstop. And that allows us to guarantee the funding of deals and then investors can get access. And really Anthony it's like 10 to 15 properties. Geography diversification, asset class diversification, operator diversification. And we want to make investing in diversified real estate as simple, straightforward, and frictionless as investing in a portfolio of stocks or an ETF.

Anthony Scaramucci: (13:01)
So, it's a brilliant idea. And the good news is you've got all the technology now and the resources to apply this idea to the marketplace, but tell us about the post COVID situation, what's your view of the real estate market in a post COVID-19 environment and how has the pandemic affected investment opportunities?

Ryan Williams: (13:24)
Yeah, it's a great question. And we don't proport to have the answers to everything we can only speak from our experience and what we're seeing and data frankly as well. I think the first point is we spent a better part of the last call it six months, very focused on our portfolio of real estate. So we own more than three billion real estate around the country, more than 15 markets around the country, primarily multi-family. So a lot of workforce housing, some affordable, a few class A assets. That's the bulk of what we own. And then it's office, a little hotel and then some development as well, in kind of that order. And we needed to make sure that everything we owned was performing well, and we didn't have any issues on debt.

Ryan Williams: (14:16)
We didn't have any issues with working capital at the properties and that we had good collections. And we're not declaring victory yet, but we are saying that we've been pretty pleased with how resilient our portfolio has been. Our multi-families North of 95% occupancy offices around that same level. Even our hotels are starting to bounce back. And I say that to say, it's incredibly important when you're investing that you're doing so in a prudent manner, in a diversified manner, you have a great team just like in the stock market. A good management team can drive out performance in real estate as well. And I think that's something that's paid off for us to date. So as we came to this conclusion that our portfolio is performing well, we're delivering cashflow to our investors yield, et cetera. We said, "All right, let's start looking forward because we all know that in these periods of dislocation, some of the most compelling opportunities can emerge, some of the most unique investments can emerge, and where do we think those opportunities will be?"

Ryan Williams: (15:17)
And so what we've aligned on, and we announced a few days ago is we're launching a new real estate portfolio investment opportunity for folks who logged on to cadre.com. We're focused on building a diversified portfolio into asset classes we think will be winners. And we're staying away from the asset classes we think will be losers. So where do we think they're going to be winners? First from an asset class perspective, multi-family we've seen it with our own portfolio rates are at an all time low, people are always going to need somewhere to stay. A lot of people aren't really willing to pay the cost to move, and to find other opportunities. So they're renewing at all time high rates. And I think the other reality is just cap rates are continuing to compress in the space, in the right markets.

Ryan Williams: (16:09)
The second asset class we liked that we think will be relatively defensive, is industrial. And this was happening pre COVID, but eCommerce has accelerated in light of COVID. The growth in industrial, as more people need warehouse, space, logistics, et cetera and so we're going to be focused on some industrial assets as well. And then finally we like select niche office. And this might be a little bit contrarian just given what you hear in the news and read, but the reality is that there are office markets, especially suburban office markets that are seeing increased occupancy. A lot of people are setting up satellite shops and for instance, the Greenwich Connecticut's of the world, which we're in many ways markets that were deteriorating pre COVID. And there's some niche strategies in office like life sciences, where there's tremendous tailwinds, that we're also focused on. We're staying away from retail.

Ryan Williams: (17:04)
We're staying away from central business district office investments, [inaudible 00:17:08], New York city. And we're staying away from full service hotels that really require and rely on travel. And so that's how we see the market playing out. In terms of timeline for recovery, it's going to vary based off of the course of this virus. Our government's collective will in addressing this quickly, and then distributing vaccines [inaudible 00:17:32], but we're not expecting for instance in a hotel, any kind of meaningful recovery until 2022 timeframe at the earliest. And in retail I think it's still a falling knife. And so you got to be really selective. There are winners in real estate despite what you hear in terms of just the distress, a lot of that's in those losing kind of asset classes we focused on.

Ryan Williams: (17:57)
And then the other big dimension is markets. We developed something called a Cadre 15, which is a data science driven proprietary market ranking system of the top 15 markets in the country as of last week. These are markets where we think there's unique growth, unique affordability and through quantitative... And so in qualitative analysis, we've identified these markets. They're markets like Phoenix, Dallas, Houston, Nashville, Atlanta, Charlotte, Tampa, Orlando. Markets where there's, again, a unique combination of population growth, job growth. We even can look at millennial inflow and outflow, and that's how we invest, the asset class we think are winners and the top growth markets.

Anthony Scaramucci: (18:37)
Well, I'm glad you mentioned Charlotte, because if John Dorsey keeps picking on me Ryan, you're going to help me find a house for him in Charlotte. We're going to move him back.

Ryan Williams: (18:46)
You got it, count us in.

Anthony Scaramucci: (18:48)
I beg you. I need you to be the help on that. He picks on me, Ryan.

Ryan Williams: (18:53)
So I heard in the intro. Yeah, [crosstalk 00:18:55].

Anthony Scaramucci: (18:55)
[crosstalk 00:18:55] unbelievable. Let me go to Cadre Cash for a second.

Ryan Williams: (18:59)
Sure.

Anthony Scaramucci: (19:00)
Because I think is an amazing thing, it's an account that earns interest well in excess of the traditional banks, explain to people how you're doing that, explain the safety around that and why this is another exciting asset class and even low interest rate environment?

Ryan Williams: (19:18)
Yeah. We launched Cadre Cash a few days ago. I'd say it's probably our most significant product to date given this current low yield, low growth, high volatility market. And I think all three of those trends are going to be in play for the foreseeable future, especially with the guidance we've gotten from the fed on rates. And so we decided-

Anthony Scaramucci: (19:41)
And what yields are you getting for people?

Ryan Williams: (19:43)
... yeah, so we're providing investors in FBIC insured 3% reward on their cash, which is more than 60 times the national APY. We're providing investors as well with access to a real estate investment portfolio that they can participate in as well. So the idea was when you invest with Cadre, when you sign up, you become a user on our platform, you automatically become eligible for this 3% reward savings account where you're able to earn that 3% on the cash that you say you're going to invest in the real estate on our platform, but also we basically give you a credit for whatever that kind of total commitment amount is. So an example is you come to the platform, you say, "Look, I want to get a portfolio where I invest across 10 assets, and I put $50,000 into a growth oriented, defensive real estate?"

Ryan Williams: (20:40)
We'll say, "Great, got it." We'll open a Cadre Cash account for you. You deposit that $50,000, start earning 3% on that $50,000. As we fund from that account into your real estate portfolio, you can then add more cash to get back to your initial $50,000 balance. And we want it to go out with a 3% rate because we just felt like today given where rates are, and frankly given just the overall alternatives for folks, it's hard to get yield, it's hard to get that kind of return without taking a lot of outsize risk in volatility. And that was really our focus was to ensure that investors got that return on their capital at a time when people need it more than ever while also getting access to a defensive portfolio that's a hedge in many ways to the equity market volatility.

Ryan Williams: (21:31)
And so we've seen tremendous demand for the products. People can sign up, it is a limited time offering, it's cadre.com\cash. And we're excited about what it will mean for people's financial future. That's what we're always anchored on. How do we let more people have access to quality investments that will drive their futures forward? So it's really powerful product and one we think we'll actually expand our reach even further for more individuals.

Anthony Scaramucci: (21:59)
Well, congratulations on that. Just say it again, it's Cadre Cash...

Ryan Williams: (22:04)
Cadre.com\cash-

Anthony Scaramucci: (22:07)
... com\cash.

Ryan Williams: (22:08)
... that's right.

Anthony Scaramucci: (22:09)
Cadre.com\cash for people that are interested. Before I turn it over to John who's got... We've had a tremendous audience participation in lots of questions, I want to talk about the George Floyd incident for a second, because as an African-American black entrepreneur, you've got diversity issues, social issues, economic justice, you're reticent to do that. And I admire that by the way, because you're basically just want to be a person like Dr. King said, you want to be judged by the content of your character and not the color of your skin, but yet we do have this racial tension in our society and the George Floyd incident and other incidents for those men. Other tragic incidents has caused you to speak out a little bit. So I just wonder if you could tell us about the tipping point there and what advice do you have for people in terms of thinking about these issues and how can we work together to improve our society?

Ryan Williams: (23:05)
Yeah, no, thank you for asking Anthony and yeah, you're right. Again, it's been a challenging time. You have this dynamic where the kind of COVID pandemic has just laid bare some really ugly realities for many people in our country and reckoning and acknowledging that it's painful. And so for me, I've navigated my own personal challenges. I can empathize with a lot of the pain and frustration that you see, and you hear, and I just felt like I had an obligation as an African-American founder and CEO to do what I can to help personalize some of what people are seeing and hearing, especially folks and the bubbles that I kind of exist in today and then bubbles being real estate and technology to relatively homogenous industries.

Ryan Williams: (24:11)
And so, as you mentioned, I was a lot more willing to be outspoken, but not just with problems, but with ideas and solutions as well. And I think that's what it's really going to take now that everyone has seen what they've seen on TV, everyone saw George Floyd's life be taken from him. Everyone saw subsequent anger and frustration on all sides. And I think now the idea is like, "Okay, what do we do to build a more perfect union?" And I think we all can start with our own home, so to speak, our own organizations, our own networks. And I think for us at Cadre what we said is, "Look, let's start with our organization." We want to build a more inclusive organization. Right now more than 50% of our management team are women or people of color, that's great.

Ryan Williams: (25:09)
Let's make sure that throughout the whole organization we have a representative company. And I think a lot of the commitments on the company side are great. We need more diversity but what I would do is I would push companies to think about what they can do with their platforms, with their networks, with their ecosystems, with their resources. For me and for Cadre, what I've realized is we have a platform with the mission of expanding access, leveling the playing field, allowing more people to invest in an asset class that's been pretty inaccessible to date and we can use that platform and we can use that mission to extend an increased access opportunity for more people especially those who have been underserved.

Ryan Williams: (26:05)
And so what we've done at Cadre is said, "Okay, let's go above and beyond using our platform. Let's think about how do we create a more inclusive form of capitalism that sustainable because what we're seeing right now in this world is not sustainable and let's focused on driving capital into underserved communities. Let's focus on ensuring that our ecosystem is inclusive and representative as possible." And so what we've specifically said is we're making some from explicit commitments, one, we are going to do everything in our power to ensure that the operating partners that we work with in our real estate investments are more diverse. So we've made commitments at least 10%. We want to be closer to 20% of the operating partners we work with being underrepresented minorities.

Ryan Williams: (26:55)
Anthony, I think you could probably count on two hands and number of let's just say black operators in real estate that have invested more than 50 million of equity. I can only think of four, frankly, right now. Needless to say, there are hundreds, if not, thousands of others who have done that. And we think, again, there's opportunities to be heard in markets that are underserved with partners who haven't been backed and capitalized.

Ryan Williams: (27:20)
But that's one thing uniquely leverage our platform. The second is let's be more open working with minority depository institutions, MDIs. We've heard about how under capitalized, a lot of these communities banks are, and by the way, these community banks don't just serve black and Latino communities. I mean, these are communities that socioeconomically are disadvantaged. And so I think that if you can help include some of these banks that have been left on the outside looking in, in transactions, deposits as well which is great, and people have talked about that, but transactions really where you can create a multiplier effect on capital, then you're going to help again, elevate the least among us and reduce a lot of the pain economically we're seeing today.

Ryan Williams: (28:09)
And so we said, "We're going to commit to a threshold for all of our go-forward deals to work with minority depository institutions that have been under capitalized and underserved." And then I think the final thing for us is really about building coalitions. I was pleased to work with John Stein, founder, CEO of Betterment, and a handful of around 45, 50 FinTech companies on the FinTech equity coalition that was announced about a month ago or so, where it's not just one company, it's not just me and Ryan, and as a CEO, co-founder Cadre, it's, let's build an alliance of other companies with similar missions from all walks of life to ensure that this is as impactful as possible, and that we reach as many people as possible and that we're helping promote greater equality of opportunity.

Ryan Williams: (29:00)
And I think with those collective efforts, a lot of good will come. A lot of change will come, but I would just say it doesn't need to be a monumental action that you take in order to have impact. It can be as simple as having a conversation, acknowledging you don't know where to get started. For instance, if you want to increase your pipeline from a diversity perspective. Because what we're seeing again, it's not sustainable. And just the final point I would make is I do... And I'm optimistic about this, I do believe there's a real opportunity for investors to do well financially and to do good as well. For a long we've had these different buckets of returns.

Ryan Williams: (29:44)
You've got your financial IRR in kind of your impact oriented return threshold. And our view is we're at a point as you know where our country's never been more divided, our world's increasingly divided, the haves and the have-nots have never been further apart and it's not sustainable right now. And it's not good for anybody to kind of look the other way and ignore the pain that's being surfaced from those who haven't had access to opportunity. And so I think as a platform, as a leader, my obligation is to make sure that one, we're executing on our business plan, but we're thinking more holistically about all the stakeholders that co-exists in our world and those stakeholders are increasingly community. And so as we look to diversify and focus on positive societal change, vis-a-vis our investments, I think there will be this cycle where society, and at least among us are elevated and have greater access to opportunity, communities and neighborhoods around the country especially those underserved become more prosperous.

Ryan Williams: (31:00)
And the long-term effects, the long-term returns in IRRs of this will be significantly greater because there'll be less volatility, there'll be less unrest, there will be less turbulence and more stability and more equity. And I think that's all that folks are looking for is, "Give me a shot, let me compete. Give me more of a level playing field." And companies today can no longer ignore those, please. You know, the cries that we're hearing have to awaken us, we can't keep hitting snooze, and I am optimistic for what it's worth that there's a lot of collective will especially in the private sector to drive great enduring change that's sustainable.

Anthony Scaramucci: (31:45)
Well, I think it's beautiful and very well said. And I what I appreciate more than just what you're saying, or the actions that you're taking, it's an incentive for all of us, Ryan. I'm going to turn it over to John who's got a series of questions for you from our audience, but thank you for joining us today.

Ryan Williams: (32:04)
Thank you, Anthony. I really appreciate it.

John Darsie: (32:06)
And Ryan, I thought your last answer was very well said, and I want to build on that a little bit. There's really two forms of racism that exists. There's the overt in your face type of racism, and then there sort of the nimbyism not in my backyard type of attitude that you see in a lot of major cities and even left leaning cities that are generally thought of as more receptive to minorities. You talked a little bit earlier about affordable housing and about how you think you can do well and do good with a variety of different investments today. We've had other guests on previously people like Steve Case, people like Mark Cuban of [inaudible 00:32:40] talking about how they think affordable housing is a tremendous investment opportunity that also happens to have an impact component built into it. What's your view on affordable housing in general, and how can we... There's a real dearth of quality housing around major cities, how do we fix that, and what do you think of it from an investment perspective?

Ryan Williams: (32:59)
Yeah, no, Greg, great question. Great point. First, it's no one can argue that we have a shortage of affordable housing in our country today. So there's a clear macro case for increasing the supply of affordable. You can't say the same thing for other asset classes. You can't say the same thing for office, especially in some of the larger markets. Can't say the same thing for hotel, especially full service. Definitely can't say the same thing for retail. So I think the first point is, there's definitely a mismatch in some asymmetry between supply and demand for affordable housing. So you check that box, okay, macro investment theme can make sense. The next question really is, what of the right markets to be investing in affordable housing and how do you bring together the public and private sectors in those markets to ensure that there's? Again, more inclusive capitalism, that there's positive revitalization of communities, not gentrification happening with a little pocket of affordable housing.

Ryan Williams: (34:05)
And I do think that there is an increasing focus from investors LPs, allocators on that very dynamic and they're willing. And increasingly we hear it because we have investors reach out to us and recently in particular, we hear it from investors that they're willing to think differently about the business plans, the return profiles within reason of course, and the [inaudible 00:34:32] periods. And so I think if you can identify high growth markets, affordable markets, create partnerships between private public sectors, which sounds a lot easier than it actually is, I actually think that there's almost this arbitrage opportunity from an investing standpoint, just because affordable housing has been under invested historically, but there has to be the right incentives. Again, from a public private perspective, I think we've seen that there are a lot of programs where the spirit of the program is good, but the actual execution is not.

Ryan Williams: (35:07)
And I attribute that again to not having the right balance between the private sort of incentives and the public incentives. The other thing I would just say is that there are definitely a lot of operating partners, sponsors, developers that I've spoken with, that if the capital was there, they would be building and developing affordable housing at scale. And so I also think there's an untapped operating partner pool, and management team pool, especially among more diverse operators and managers who really know the communities and allowing the affordable housing will be developed. So I think if you can create almost this kind of investment lifecycle where at every single point you're ensuring that the stakeholders are aligned with the mission, they have the right incentives and you're picking the right markets, the macro story here makes sense.

Ryan Williams: (36:03)
At Cadre, we've done a little bit of affordable housing. We've done a lot in workforce housing but we're increasingly focused on affordable housing, finding opportunities that we think fit within the markets we're focused on, and working to structure partnerships, public, private, but I definitely think it's one of those asset classes in the scheme of everything going on, it would be defensive, could actually drive outsize returns because of the dearth of capital in the space today and also can clearly do good.

John Darsie: (36:33)
Have you thought about... You talked about different programs that have existed from a public policy perspective that have sometimes failed in their mission despite having a good spirit within the legislation. Have you thought about what type of incentives from a public policy perspective would drive the type of investment that you'd like to see in underserved communities?

Ryan Williams: (36:54)
Yeah. I've thought a bit about it. What I would say is that to me there's a lot of different ways you can skin the cat and there's a lot of different ways that you could incentivize developers, sponsors and investors. And we've seen a lot of it. Look at the Opportunity Zone Program in terms of capital gains being deferred and then ultimately subset a part of that being eliminated. We've seen different tax credits. So the economics of it, I'm not as focused on because I think that's relatively straight forward. I think the bigger issue is there's not... I haven't seen in really many cases a sustained and ongoing set of incentives, checks and balances. What I mean is let's take the, Opportunity Zone Program.

Ryan Williams: (37:46)
You put the capital in, as an investor you're now able to defer gains, and then on any appreciation above your initial basis, you can eliminate those gains. But that's like a one and done deal. Now with the developer, the operator, they've got to abide by the whole periods, et cetera. What if there were ongoing incentives based off of things like community impact, right? You could figure out some kind of metric based off of diversity of the tenant base, based off of the turnover in the properties themselves. So that you're thinking about this in more of a longterm way, not a one-time, let me see if I can benefit economically and then make sure that I get my money 10 years from now.

Ryan Williams: (38:37)
And I think that that's been missing in a lot of recent policy, a lot of recent structures, is how do you create almost these different tiers of incentives above and beyond the initial that align with the long-term development and inclusion of these communities. And I think if folks could come with some ideas related to, how do we ensure that the missions of these programs are kind of delivered over the course of the whole period, not just one time upfront and you move on, then there would be greater accountability and there would be greater alignment with actually ensuring that positive societal impact and inclusion is delivered. And there are models, and there are examples that I've seen where, you're changing for instance in a shopping center tenant base, right?

Ryan Williams: (39:30)
You're taking out in, for instance, in my hometown of Baton Rouge, I was speaking with a local official there recently about swapping out a liquor store in a retail strip center for a Starbucks or a Whole Foods and the kind of change that that would create almost even in the mentality of many of these communities in terms of what the access is, and that's something that those kinds of changes where you're repositioning, but still including the community and the progress and development, aren't hard to do. You just need the right incentives, you need the right accountability, and you need a long-term orientation on making sure that every year, every month, these communities, these investments are bringing forth the intended mission and that all the stakeholders, public, private and otherwise are aligned on an ongoing basis, not just one time.

John Darsie: (40:26)
So, one last question, before we let you go, you started Cadre and you democratize primary access to real estate, but you've also more recently developed a robust secondary market on the Cadre platform for real estate. One of the things that discourages people from investing in real estate in the first place is the illiquidity factor. Why do you think it's important for healthy financial markets in this case, a healthy secondary market for commercial real estate, why is that important for the development of that market and what type of positive impact does that have on returns, and just outcomes in communities?

Ryan Williams: (40:59)
Yeah. First thing, I guess I have to take a step back, when I started Cadre I said, "Why are so many individuals under allocated to alternatives and to real estate?" And there were two reasons I believed, one was a lack of efficient, low fee access. And the second was a lack of liquidity. On the low fee efficient access, we created a technology interface with the great institutional investing team so people can log on with the click of a button, pay significantly lower fees than traditional real estate PE firms. And we've delivered on that. We've executed on that. The liquidity dimension was a lot more challenging, but I also thought if we could crack that code on building a secondary market, we would give more individuals confidence and comfort in investing in real estate, because they knew if there are market dislocations, like we saw 10, 12 years ago or things like we're seeing recently with COVID, they'd have the optionality to get out.

Ryan Williams: (41:56)
They want to be prone to market swings about the ability to get liquidity. For individuals it's a lot more important in many ways to then institutions because they don't have the same balance sheets, the same assets. And so we spent the better part of the first three years just working on legal regulatory and making sure that we could actually provide fractional liquidity for investors in both properties and in portfolios to the extent they wanted to sell. We spent the first few years testing the concept, building prototypes, spending some time with folks who would serve as backstops, almost market makers, and about two and a half years ago we formally launched our secondary marketplace successfully. And the idea is we want individuals on a quarterly basis to be able to sell at more efficient pricing levels than the real estate secondaries funds charge, right? Where you're getting massive discounts because there's no symmetry of information. Buyers and sellers don't have the same information.

Ryan Williams: (42:55)
So you're basically baking in some kind of opacity discount into your investing. And I think many ways we've delivered on that, we've closed hundreds of trades on our secondary marketplace for hundreds of individual investors, pricing generally been within a few 100 basis points of the latest third-party valuation, and I think as a result, we've given people just an extra degree of comfort that if they need, these aren't people kind of high-frequency trading or otherwise, they can get out without the pain associated with a real estate, private equity funds, illiquidity dimension, and I think what's exciting is you can see a world where we take this proprietary first ever direct secondary market for real estate and apply it to other assets, other real estate holdings, other alternatives over time.

Ryan Williams: (43:46)
So let's say there's an office landlord in New York, great building, but they've been struggling. Tenant base is not coming back anytime soon, there's a lot of headwinds in terms of the cost of reopen. They need some level of liquidity. They need to sell a 20% interest in their building of their asset. Well, we've built secondary marketplace that connects owners and operators and their holdings to thousands of investors around the world. And we can effectively start unlocking liquidity and real estate assets and making it a more liquid asset class than it is today. And I think what the outcome will be is there'll be more people comfortable with dipping their toe and getting involved in this space, more institutions comfortable to the extent there are major market corrections. And ultimately I believe change the paradigm in real estate from one of opacity and illiquidity to transparency and liquidity, which I think is better for everybody.

John Darsie: (44:47)
Yeah, and as you talked about, there's no shortage of developers who have identified great projects in terms of things like affordable housing, but there's a lack of capital. If you can create a robust secondary market, it makes more people more comfortable putting capital into the space and it just drives capital in general.

Ryan Williams: (45:03)
Absolutely.

John Darsie: (45:05)
Well, Ryan, thanks so much for joining us. It's been a fascinating conversation. I might have to log onto cadre.com here in a few minutes and put some money to work, but it's a fascinating concept. Congratulations on building a great business. The tremendous team you've put together and all the impact you're having in communities as well. Anthony, you have a final word.

Anthony Scaramucci: (45:23)
Oh wow. I'm going to be looking for a house in Charlotte, Ryan, so I'm expecting you to help me. Okay-

Ryan Williams: (45:28)
I'm there for you. You tell me where.

John Darsie: (45:31)
[crosstalk 00:45:31].

Anthony Scaramucci: (45:32)
[crosstalk 00:45:32] SALT Talk, you know what I mean?

John Darsie: (45:34)
Do you have any retirement communities in your portfolio, Ryan, that we could find Anthony a home that he can [crosstalk 00:45:39] his later years?

Anthony Scaramucci: (45:42)
It's relentless Ryan. Okay. Next week, Ryan Williams will be joining me as the co-host of SALT Talks on a going forward basis. [crosstalk 00:45:52] John will be reporting-

John Darsie: (45:52)
God willing, he'd do way better than me, that's for sure.

Anthony Scaramucci: (45:54)
... on assignment from Charlotte, North Carolina. Ryan, thanks very much.

Ryan Williams: (45:59)
Thank you both.

Anthony Scaramucci: (46:00)
[crosstalk 00:46:00] terrific. We look forward to following your career. We hope you'll come back and of course, love to have you at one of our live events.

Ryan Williams: (46:06)
And wait for it. Thank you both, [crosstalk 00:46:08] appreciate it [crosstalk 00:46:09].

Sam Zell: Billionaire Explains How COVID-19 Impacted the Real Estate Market | SALT Talks #16

“Right now, there is now reason to leave the United States. As an investor, there is nothing more secure than the rule of law.”

Sam Zell is the Founder & Chairman of Equity Group Investments, a private investment firm that invests in real estate markets. He is also the Chairman of four NYSE-listed companies: Equity Residential, Equity Lifestyle Properties, Equity Commonwealth and Covanta Holding Corporation.

“Things are looking better than they did three months ago, but not good enough to be optimistic.” Sam anticipates a U-shaped recovery, at least until a vaccine arrives, while noting that the pandemic has acted as an accelerant to the themes that have begun changing the economy. That said, fossil fuels are likely not going away.

Working from home may become far more common, with workers going into the office three to four times per week. However, “businesses need to create contact between people to be successful; that’s what office space provides.”

LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE

SPEAKER

Sam Zell.jpg

Sam Zell

Chairman

Equity Group Investments

MODERATOR

anthony_scaramucci.jpeg

Anthony Scaramucci

Founder & Managing Partner

SkyBridge

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

John Darsie.: (00:08)
Hello, everyone and welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is John Darsie. I'm the managing director of SALT, which is a global thought leadership forum at the intersection of finance, technology and public policy. We've been doing these SALT Talks in lieu of our in person conferences in order to replicate the experience that you get at those conferences. We really try to provide a window into the minds of subject matter experts and also provide a platform for big important world changing ideas.

John Darsie.: (00:37)
Today, we're very excited to welcome Sam Zell to SALT Talks. Sam is a global industry agnostic entrepreneur and investor. He has a long track record of turning around troubled companies and assets, leading industry consolidations and bringing companies to the public markets. His current investments are focused in energy, logistics, manufacturing, communications, healthcare and real estate. Sam is the chairman of equity group investments. The private investment firm he founded more than 45 years ago.

John Darsie.: (01:07)
He also chairs for companies listed on the New York Stock Exchange. Those are equity residential, leading apartment REIT, Equity Lifestyle Properties, a manufactured home community and resort REIT, Equity Commonwealth and office REIT and Covanta Holding Corporation. An international owner and operator of energy from waste and power generation facilities. He just recently sold Anixter International Incorporated, a company he chaired for 35 years for four and a half billion dollars.

John Darsie.: (01:37)
Sam is best known for his role in founding the modern real estate industry. He founded and chaired Equity Office Properties Trust, the largest office REIT until 2007, which he sold for 39 billion in the largest leveraged buyout at the time. In addition, he introduced the first Brazilian and Mexican real estate companies respectively, to the New York Stock Exchange through Equity International. A second private investment firm he founded to focus on real estate related businesses in emerging markets.

John Darsie.: (02:05)
Sam is an active philanthropist with a focus on entrepreneurial education and sponsors three leading Programs at the University of Michigan's Ross School of Business, Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Business and Management and the Interdisciplinary Center Herzliya IDC in Israel. The Zeal Global Entrepreneur Network, ZGEN, unites the students and alumni of these programs and actively provides them with connections, opportunities, mentorship and support. Sam also sponsors the Sam Zell, Robert Lurie Real Estate Center at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton Real Estate Center.

John Darsie.: (02:41)
He holds a JD degree and a BA from the University of Michigan. So it's fair to say he's a Michigan man. Sam represents the REIT industry on the New York Stock Exchange wall of innovators. He was recognized in 2017 by Forbes as one of the hundred greatest living business minds. In 2017 Sam debuted his book, Am I Being Too Subtle?, which was published by Penguin Random House, in which he shares fundamentals and philosophies that made him a self made billionaire.

John Darsie.: (03:10)
Interviewing Sam today is going to be Anthony Scaramucci. It's not the first time Anthony and Sam have had a conversation with SALT. Sam has been to several of our SAlT conferences. So we thank him for joining us for this digital version. Anthony is the Founder and Managing Partner of SkyBridge Capital, which is a global alternative investment firm, as well as the chairman of SALT. And just a reminder, if you have any questions today for Sam, type them in the Q&A box in the chat window at the bottom of your video screen. And with that, I'll turn it over to Anthony.

Anthony Scaramucci: (03:41)
Great. John, thank you. Sam, thanks so much for being on with us today. I just want to point out, there was no sarcasm in the title of the book, Am I Being Too Subtle? Sam could never be subtle enough as everyone knows about Sam Zell. But if you have not read that book, I encourage you to read that book. I have send that book out Sam to hundreds of people. I made my oldest son who I think you met, we had breakfast with him one morning, just graduated from Stanford Business School. He loved the book, gave it out to about another hundred of his fellow students.

Anthony Scaramucci: (04:15)
So please read that book, Am I Being Too Subtle? And since you are never subtle Sam, that is the absolute truth. Let's get right into it. How do you view the economy, the economic landscape, in the shadow of the pandemic, where are we going? What do we need to be worried about sir?

Sam Zell: (04:35)
Well, first of all, Anthony if I knew the answer to that I'd be rich.

Anthony Scaramucci: (04:40)
Richer, richer.

Sam Zell: (04:41)
All I can have is an opinion. I think that most people have overcome the idea that we're going to have a V kind of recovery. And I think that's probably a valid assumption. I think that the way things look today, I think they're better than they looked three months ago, but, not any reason for object optimism. I think probably, something like a U shaped recovery. I think we'll see some significant recovery between now and the end of the year. I wouldn't be surprised if unemployment at the end of the year where 10% or lower. Now normally you'd say 10% is a recession, maybe, maybe not.

Sam Zell: (05:49)
I do think however that, once we get past this pandemic, I think our ability to recover will be significant. I think it's important in line with that thinking, at least from my perspective, when I look at the pandemic, and everybody is talking about a vaccine, which I'm hopeful we'll have a vaccine. But, it's hard for me to imagine that we can have a vaccine anytime in the next year and a half or two years, that was in my opinion, probably be the shortest time, where that could be determined. But I don't think we need a vaccine in order for our country and the world to go back to business.

Sam Zell: (06:45)
I think we need to eliminate the concept of death as one of the results of this virus. You mentioned that, before when we were talking about Mike Milken and I, talked to Michael recently and he's been working on a drug that was used in prostate cancer, which suppresses testosterone, which seems to suppress the connection to the lung of this pandemic. Maybe that's a solution. Maybe the guys in Oxford will come up with something. Maybe there'll be a cocktail, but once we "get death out of the equation" and it becomes a flu, maybe a more stringent flu than what we've been expected. I think go see our country quickly begin to recover.

Anthony Scaramucci: (07:48)
You think the capital markets, Sam, or price right for that recovery, or are they ahead of themselves? What parts of the capital markets may be behind where things are? When you look at the landscape of the credit and equity capital markets, what's your opinion there?

Sam Zell: (08:06)
Well, my view before the pandemic was that the capital markets were very expensive. My view when it took its dive, was that we were having a correction. When it recovered as much as it did, I thought that the capital markets were getting over heated again. At the moment, in a general term, I think the capital markets are too willing to assume, what I call good news or too desperate for good news. And therefore, I think that the capital markets generally are probably too optimistic. Certainly the debt markets have been wide open and we've finance the staggering amount of stuff in the last three or four months.

Sam Zell: (09:09)
Obviously the FED has in his facilitated that. But I think it's still a little too optimistic. On the equity side, we still have a bifurcation between value and grow. And I thought before the pandemic that, that bifurcation was too great and nothing has changed in my opinion.

Anthony Scaramucci: (09:33)
When you look at the, what some people are calling residual permanency. So meaning we've had lost economic output. And now there may be some permanency, meaning that local restaurant on your local main street is now closed. It can't reopen, or that store is closed, or J. C. Penney is in bankruptcy and we'll have to see what happens. But Pier 1 Imports went into bankruptcy and they've vacated their store. So when you see that residual permanency piece, does that make you worry, sir? Does that make it harder for us to recover or do you think that the economy is so adaptive that those resources and labor and all the different things that went into those businesses will recirculate in to other places quickly?

Sam Zell: (10:21)
Well, I think that I hardly could be surprised at what has actually happened. I mean, if I interviewed a bunch of people last December and asked them about what their view of J. C. Penney was, maybe they wouldn't have predicted a bankruptcy as quickly as there was one. But there weren't any optimists in the room for J. C. Penney. Probably similarly to Neiman Marcus. We have been overly retailed up for many years. We've been in the process of adjusting to it. I think the pandemic acted as an accelerant to the strategy or to the themes that were already in process.

Sam Zell: (11:18)
Even your example of the restaurants. You look at the statistics, the number of restaurants created in the last four or five years, sets an all time record for new openings. And my own view was then as it is today that, there just isn't enough demand to support that many facilities and obviously the pandemic and the closing subsequent has brought that to the forefront.

Sam Zell: (11:50)
I think there's a lot of retail establishment that will not open. But I would also tell you that America is a great place and it's full of people who have ideas. And maybe they won't be willing to rent the stores at the same rates as previously, but they're going to want to rent the stores. They're going to want to try out their ideas. And I don't think entrepreneurship is that.

Anthony Scaramucci: (12:23)
That's a good transition to my next question related to the consumer. So you've got some of those vacancies and you and I agree entrepreneurs will eventually fill those vacancies. In some ways the economy would become even more dynamic, but the consumer seems to be impaired right now. If you look at the savings rate that was tallied a few weeks ago, [inaudible 00:12:42] was at 33% historic high and people are concerned and people have either lost jobs or lost some pay. Are you worried about that impairment to the economy in terms of it causing a more meaningful longer lasting contraction? Or do you think that will stop once we start stop fearing the health scare?

Sam Zell: (13:05)
Yeah, I think that at the early stages of that health scare, people were using the term depression. I don't think that that was relevant then, and I don't think that's relevant today. Are we going to have a recession? I think we already have a recession going on. Although I don't think it's going to be anywhere as deep as a lot of the [inaudible 00:13:37] have suggested. I think that, just what you've seen in the last few weeks has been some partial opening, various places around the country. The results have been, people have been willing to spend. And in fact, seem to be very excited about the opportunity to get back into the commerce side of the world.

Anthony Scaramucci: (14:03)
Just a few more questions there on the macro economy. So your analysis of the stimulus, both the fiscal stimulus and what's being put into the capital markets by the federal reserve, what is your reaction to that? Is it a mama bear stimulus? Is it too much? Is it too little? What's your bit?

Sam Zell: (14:22)
Well, I think the best way to answer your question, Anthony is to compare it to the stimulus of 08. The famous Nancy Pelosi stimulus bill. Which I think was basically focused stuff on adding time climbing, adding to existing programs without really focusing on what the objective was. This stimulus, I think, Mr [Minuchi 00:14:53] deserves the credit. That it was focused. It was basically bridge financing to get us over the 90 to 120 day period that we were anticipating. We were going to see the country closed or partially closed.

Sam Zell: (15:13)
And I think they succeeded in doing that. I think that, a lot of people are probably relatively surprised at how well we're doing today, considering what we've been through. Obviously, Mr. Powell deserves similar accolades for very actively and aggressively making sure that the existing economy was not destroyed by the "shutdown."

Anthony Scaramucci: (15:49)
Okay. So I want to ask you about investing. I'm going to switch gears a little bit. You seem to have backed the truck up in energy, at a time where supply is up and demand is down. And so you are a great contrary and investor by nature. What are you seeing in that space that other people are not seeing?

Sam Zell: (16:09)
Well, first of all, you got to ask me that question five years from now. And maybe five years from now, we can both either cry or laugh together. It's way too early to reach any conclusions. I've always been fascinated by arenas where capital becomes very scarce. Despite the fact that there's nobody disputing the fact that there's more capital floating around the world today. And then at any time, anybody can remember. If you're in the oil patch today, there ain't no capital floating around. And so, I was intrigued and attracted by the fact that the kinds of yields that were available and the kinds of situations that were available would have been very rare by historic standards.

Sam Zell: (17:12)
Our involvement in energy has been hardly bet the truck up, but certainly we've been more aggressive than most people. We had a hiccup when the price of oil fell through the elevator shaft. But that was really a short term scenario that was unlikely to be repeated going forward. And we've seen a pretty significant recovery since then and pretty much stable in that arena. Natural gas today, except for 11%, it seems like it had been beaten down well beyond any rational scenario. And so, fossil fuels are not going away. The pricing of fossil fuels are not going to be prohibitive going forward. And I think it's likely that the investments we've made during this period, should produce significant returns.

Anthony Scaramucci: (18:23)
So it's sort of a related contrarian play. So I'm just interested in your reaction, given your real estate expertise. There's a lot of bears in the commercial mortgage backed security space, very similar to the energy. To your point about capital leaving certain areas of the market. Are you a contrary in there as well, and think that there's representative of good value there? Or do you think that the consensus is correct in commercial mortgage back real estate?

Sam Zell: (18:54)
Well, I think that referring to it as commercial backed real estate is probably [crosstalk 00:19:02].

Anthony Scaramucci: (19:02)
Well, CMBS, Commercial mortgage-backed security.

Sam Zell: (19:04)
No, I know. But in other words, but if you look at where the real focus of CMBS has been, it's been in retail. There's much more retail in CMBS than there is residential or anything else.

Anthony Scaramucci: (19:19)
Yep. Or commercial office buildings for that matter.

Sam Zell: (19:22)
Yeah. There's office, but it's primarily retail. Which by the way, as far as I'm concerned is still very much of a falling knife. And when you package things together, as CMBS does, you end up with, you might have a good mall and four bad ones, and that just drags down the whole scenario. And in a sense capital fleeing, and that's basically what's happened. And I wouldn't be very confident that those people who have stepped up and taken advantage of the CMBS market are likely to end up with a very high positive results.

Anthony Scaramucci: (20:10)
Okay. Makes sense. So, so let's switch over to office space then. What's your opinion of office space in both the suburban markets and the 24/7 cities?

Sam Zell: (20:24)
There's been a lot of discussion about the 24/7 cities. People have talked about it as though as a passing phase. I totally disagree with that. I think the 24/7 cities will suffer somewhat, but they're not going away. People are not going to move to [inaudible 00:20:47] Iowa from New York city just because they can remotely connect to their job. We're social animals. We want to work together. Nobody's figured out a way to motivate by modem. We've done very well by operating office space and businesses remotely.

Sam Zell: (21:13)
But it's very important to remember that we've done so. Because we're operating with a bunch of people that we know that we trust and that we have expectations. If it were five years from now and there had been a 25% turnover in people working, we would be sitting here trying to do a remote problem, not really knowing or trusting the people at the other end of the phone or at the end of the Zoom.

Sam Zell: (21:44)
And so, when it's all said and done, we may end up with a scenario of four days a week. We may end up with a scenario of a lack of concern about working from home for a day. But when it's all said and done, if you want to run a business and you want to be successful, you need to create contact between the people. And that's what office space provides. Now, having said all of that, even before the virus, I believe that we had a significant oversupply of office space in America. We didn't see it because we had assets. Like we work, taking up space like there was no tomorrow because they didn't intend on paying tomorrow.

Sam Zell: (22:38)
But they took up a lot of space and in effect, created an environment where people didn't understand that we're building a lot of stuff. Lot of new buildings, Hudson yards. And it's Hudson yards is 14 million square feet. There's another 5 million adjacent to it. And Steve Rob has got a giant project above Penn Central Station. That's a lot of space. We have a similar situation in Chicago, where we've had four or five new office buildings, they've emptied out, the old buildings. And we don't have tenants for those old buildings. So I think the office space business is likely to suffer from over supply. But in an oversupply similar to previous periods of over supply, as opposed to something dramatic, like everybody working from home,

Anthony Scaramucci: (23:41)
Let's switch gears for a second. I'm going to let John ask a question in a second, but I want to ask you about hospitality before we go to the outside questions, Sam. What are your thoughts there and its potential recovery?

Sam Zell: (23:55)
Well, I don't own any hotels. Thank God. If I did, I would be slitting my wrist because in effect, [crosstalk 00:24:07].

Anthony Scaramucci: (24:07)
It's very subtle. It's very subtle, Sam. It's a very subtle [crosstalk 00:24:11].

Sam Zell: (24:10)
Yeah. To go from 70% occupancy to zero gets your attention. And the answer is, the hotels are going to slowly open, occupancy is slowly going to increase. But it belies one of the big issues that I have been focused on since the pandemic began and the shutdowns began. And that is, everybody's talking about the cost of having your building closed down. Nobody's talking about the cost of reopening. And those are very significant. And even in the best hotels across the United States, they're going to open at 5% and then they're going to go to 10 and they're going to go to 12 and they're going to go to 15 when meanwhile losing their ass.

Sam Zell: (25:07)
So I think it's gonna be a tough environment. I don't believe that this is going to end the "convention business" or the use of hotels to make deals. I think with, and I've heard a lot of people say, "God, with the experience we're having right now. I don't know why we ever put anybody on the road." Well, I would expect that as it starts, there will be reticence of people to go on the road. And they'll say, "Well, just zoom it out." And that's what will happen until some young aggressive guy gets on a plane, goes and gets the deal done while you're sitting on Zoom selling an idea.

Sam Zell: (25:54)
So I don't think we have any significant change. We had, again, just like office space, we had an oversupply in the hotel business already in place before the pandemic. And the result is, this going to be a significant number of hotels that are not going to reopen. But I would bet that they would have not reopened except maybe a year or two later than what's going to happen now. So I think the hospitality business is not going anywhere. I think people like Marriott, Hyatt and Hilton are going to get home to be more dominant and stronger, as the world reopens.

Anthony Scaramucci: (26:43)
All right. Terrific commentary as usual, Sam. I'm going to turn it over to John for some outside questions and then I'll feather some more back in.

John Darsie.: (26:52)
Thank you. We have great participation on the call and a lot of audience engagement. So, thank you everyone who's listening for that. Now the first question is about one of your REITs. EQC has been sitting on about 4 billion in cash for several years in anticipation of a downturn, which is what we're now seeing. What will you target in terms of sectors, geographies, and where in the capital stack are you going to be looking to take advantage of some of that distress?

Sam Zell: (27:18)
Well, first of all, the answer is, it's got about 3.4 billion in cash. We took it over five years ago and we've sold 150 assets during that period of time and assembled the $3.4 billion. I might add that, it's very unusual. We sold 150 assets and we don't have one regret, so far. We don't buy markets, we buy deals. And I think that the capital is going to be used to respond to specific situations. I can tell you, it's unlikely that we'll get involved in retail.

Sam Zell: (28:11)
Aside from that, I think we will be involved and we will start to expend that capital. And by the way, I don't expect anything to happen for another three or four months. But I expect we will begin to spend the capital, as we deal with other landlords and other owners of real estate, who in one form or another survive this far. Maybe through pretend and extend. But, the game is ending.

Sam Zell: (28:47)
And I think the lending community, whereas in 08, or 09 was afraid to do anything and therefore did a pretending to extend, I think the lending community this time around, very much wants to "clean the books." And I think there are going to be a lot of foreclosures and opportunities.

John Darsie.: (29:14)
Thank you for that Sam. You mentioned on CNBC a little while back that you were buying gold for the first time. What attracted you finally to gold? Are you still buying it? What's your outlook for gold and silver?

Sam Zell: (29:27)
The only thing I bought is gold. And I continue to buy gold, not in staggering proportions, but making it a part of my diversification. And it's very much a response to the debasing of currencies on a worldwide basis. It's not just the United States that's had QE2 and 3 and 4. But it's everywhere in the world. And, so far, we haven't had any inflation because everybody is doing it at the same time. But there's little doubt in my mind that this is not going to be like that forever. And I think that a prudent investor would have some proportion of his assets in the metal gold.

John Darsie.: (30:33)
Outside of real estate and gold, as you just mentioned, are there any other industries or specific types of deals that you're looking at that you think present tremendous opportunity in this distress cycle?

Sam Zell: (30:45)
Well, we've spent a lot of our time in the distribution end of the world. And they've done very well through the pandemic, which is really interesting. And consequently, and distribution is another way of talking about it as the asset light. And I think that, we're intrigued and interested in business opportunities that are asset light as opposed to other times, when our whole orientation has been just the opposite.

John Darsie.: (31:30)
Fantastic. So there's a question relating to, you mentioned the troublesome environment for office buildings in general, and there are some questions about how those office buildings can potentially be repurposed. So could old office buildings needing major improvements in large cities with large homeless populations. Could we eliminate laws that mandate or eliminate a single room occupancy from allowable use, should those laws be revived and maybe including provisions for jobs and other social assistance programs for those office spaces?

Sam Zell: (32:07)
Well, it's hard for me to imagine that you're going to turn an office building on third Avenue into an SRL. In the same manner, as it's hard to imagine that you're going to turn an office building on LaSalle street into an SRL. I also think that you're talking about rather globally, but the economic cost of trying to do what you're talking about doing is pretty staggering. So although it sounds good and I'm all for [inaudible 00:32:51], the answer is that I doubt. And, yes, there will be some office buildings somewhere that are created and used to solve the homeless problem, but you ain't going to say solve the homeless problem without building housing. Or converting some assets to housing. But converting an old office building to housing is a staggeringly expensive scenario.

Sam Zell: (33:21)
I've been to the movie and I know. So, I just think that when it's all said and done, what they've been trying to do in California for the last three or four years, which is increased density. In particularly in transit corridors, that's what's got to be done across the country in order to generate the kind of housing we need to solve what is a significant problem. Obviously it's been held back in California and everywhere else in the country by the NIMBY scenario or not my backyard. I think that, as a population and as a country, we're going to have to come to grips with the fact that we can't allow NIMBY to determine the future of our country. And have the kind of impact that it's had today.

John Darsie.: (34:21)
We have several questions about your process of an investor and how it applies in this scenario. So I'm going to merge them into one. You made a lot of money after the savings and loan crisis. You basically predicted the 2008 crisis. You sold, had a record sale of your business prior to the 2008 crisis. What is the indicator in your mind that tells you when to take risk off and what's the indicator or indicators that tell you it's time to put capital to work. And then how do you compare the opportunity set in this current crisis as it relates to the savings and loan crisis in the 2008 crisis?

Sam Zell: (35:01)
Well, I think that it starts with the fact that today, we just don't know where we are. The number of transactions that have occurred are minuscule, price discovery is miniscule. In the past, it's been very easy. In the post-saving zone crisis arena, making investments was, in my opinion as simple as it's ever been. It basically revolved around replacement cost. I was buying office buildings all across the United States in 91 and 90 and 92 and 93 and buying apartments. And all of those assets were basically sold to me at significantly less than it costs to replace them. That meant that longterm, I was protected from competition by virtue of the price at which I had bought. At this moment, we have a tremendous disparity between the bid and the ask.

Sam Zell: (36:16)
I think that the current owners of real estate basically think or take the position that nothing has really changed. There's been a three or a six month gap while everybody sits back. And as soon as it's over, we're going to go back to 3% yields on office buildings and apartments [inaudible 00:36:42] et cetera. The other end of the coin, are buyers who are sitting there saying, "Wait a minute, we've had a major, major event that has occurred, that has changed everything forever." And it's got to change cap rates, it's got to change risk, it's got to change everything. And therefore, what I was willing to pay six months ago, I'm not even willing to pay a take a cap rate double, and maybe it should be even more than that.

Sam Zell: (37:18)
This kind of disparity, frankly, is not unusual. And that's why we have something called price discovery. And price discovery in effect comes about as a result of multiple transactions. We are a long way from having any multiple transactions. And that's why I think we won't really know till the third and fourth quarter or this year, what the impact on real estate is going to be.

John Darsie.: (37:47)
Thank you for that. In terms of looking geographically a little bit, you talked about how you don't buy markets, you buy individual deals. But as you look around the world, the economic pain, there's been some dispersions between the economic pain in various countries. What's your view, generally on international markets, specifically emerging market?

Sam Zell: (38:07)
There have been times when emerging markets have been very attractive. And at the moment, I believe that there's no reason to leave the United States. And that when it's all said and done, as an investor, there is nothing more secure than the rule of law. So I think the United States represents the strongest and the best marker in the world to take advantage of the post-pandemic period.

John Darsie.: (38:46)
Within the United States, are you focused on any particular types of markets? The question is relating to whether you think States with no state income taxes and more business friendly environments are set to continue to grow a lot more quickly than say at places like New York, San Francisco with a high tax frameworks.

Sam Zell: (39:07)
Again, I think you got to be really careful not to make too broad, a series of assumptions. Before the pandemic, two most expensive markets in the country were New York and San Francisco, both of which did not seem to suffer very much from being very expensive. In the same manner, Florida is everybody's favorite place to retire to. And the problem is that retirees don't rent a lot of office space and they don't create new businesses. So Florida may be a great place to retire to. I'm not sure it's ever proven to be a great investment horizon other than, if you're providing housing, or if you're providing entertainment.

Anthony Scaramucci: (40:07)
So Sam and I want to know, John, what the monkey behind you is reading. Okay. Now I don't know if Sam can actually see the monkey behind you, but we're not washed. So we're looking at that thing saying, "What is that exactly." So what is the monkey reading Darsie?

John Darsie.: (40:26)
Maybe I'll save it for the ultra premium SALT Talks that we have. Maybe I'll share it on the next call.

Anthony Scaramucci: (40:35)
It's unbelievable Mr. Zell that he would actually put that in the [raider 00:40:39] shop. But it's fine. Sam, you don't set out those musical boxes anymore, but one of your friends is texting me and they're asking, what would the song be this year? If you were sending out those musical boxes?

Sam Zell: (40:56)
I don't know. Probably something about the fact that it ain't over yet.

Anthony Scaramucci: (41:07)
Yeah. See, I'm a Sinatra fan. So I would say the best is yet to come.

Sam Zell: (41:12)
Right.

Anthony Scaramucci: (41:13)
Well, you've been absolutely terrific as usual. We're very, very blessed to have you as a friend. And, you had asked me a question about the live SALT conferences. And so, yes, we're hoping to get that back up and running as soon as we think it's safe to do. And hopefully we can blend in these virtual conferences. Mr. Darsie, do you have any final remarks before we let Sam go?

John Darsie.: (41:35)
No, what I'll say is, thanks a lot to the audience for your engagement on this. I know we didn't get to every question. Sam, you're a popular guy and people want to know what you're thinking because of your [inaudible 00:41:44] around every other crisis that we've seen in your lifetime. So thanks so much for joining us. Maybe we'll have to have you on again as a followup to this conversation. And of course, we look forward to having you at our next live SALT conferences as Anthony said.

Sam Zell: (41:58)
My pleasure. Thank you. And be safe.

Anthony Scaramucci: (42:02)
All the best. Thanks Sam.

John Darsie.: (42:05)
And again, thanks for joining today's call with Sam Zell. We'll see you later in the week.