“When you add more women to any equation, there’s a return on equality.“
Shelley Zalis is the Chief Executive Officer of The Female Quotient, a female-owned business committed to advancing equality. At the current rate of progress, it will take over 200 years to close the global gender pay gap and over 100 years to close the overall gender gap. Since 2013, Shelley has been working full-time to catalyze equality.
“The rules were written by men, for men over one hundred years ago.” Engaging men in the conversation, rather than looking to scapegoat or ridicule, produces tangible results in the workplace. During the COVID-19 pandemic, Shelley says that equality is being pushed backwards. The United States fell to 53 in the world according to the World Economic Forum’s 2020 Global Gender Gap Index.
How do we enact meaningful change? “We need to rewrite policies with better parental leave policies, healthcare policies and mobility policies.” Pledges are great and well-meaning, but action is needed like that of Salesforce.
LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE
SPEAKER
Shelley Zalis
CEO
The Female Quotient
MODERATOR
Anthony Scaramucci
Founder & Managing Partner
SkyBridge
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
John Darsie: (00:08)
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is John Darsie. I'm the managing director of SALT, which is a global thought leadership forum at the intersection of finance, technology and public policy. These SALT Talks are a series of digital interviews we've been doing during this work from home period with leading investors, creators, and thinkers. And what we really try to do during these SALT Talks is replicate the experience that we bring at our global SALT conference series, which our guest today has participated in for the last couple of years and what our goal really is to provide a window into the minds of subject matter experts for our audience, as well as provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future. And we're very excited today to welcome Shelley's Zalis to SALT Talks. Shelley is the CEO of The Female Quotient, which is a female-owned business committed to advancing equality.
John Darsie: (00:59)
She's an internationally renowned thought leader for advancing equality in the workplace. As the first female CEO ranked in the research industries top 25, she changed the game, helped elevate feminine values in the workplace and has devoted herself to becoming a mentor and a role model to women and leaders in her industry. And I know she even during her corporate career was very devoted to women's causes and she decided to jump in head first to make that her full time career with the Female Quotient. As she, as I mentioned, had considerable experience working in the traditional marketing and advertising research industries, where she held senior positions at ASI Market Research, which is now Ipsos ASI and Nielsen Entertainment. In 2000, Shelley founded OTX, which grew to become a top global research agency and the pioneer of several innovative online research products, including the multi-source and blended sample approach.
John Darsie: (01:52)
In 2010 OTX was acquired by Ipsos, and today the Female Quotient, which Shelley started is advancing gender equality and advancing those causes across many industries and career levels with their Equality Lounge, which I mentioned previously, Shelley brought the Equality Lounge to the SALT conference last year, and we had a tremendous time having her participation at that event. The Equality Lounge is a popup experience that takes place at conferences across the globe, such as the world Economic Forum, Cannes Lions, the Consumer Electronics Show, and even FII in Saudi Arabia as well as SALT. And she also does the Equality Lounge experience within companies as well. She's leading tons of other leading female initiatives and equality initiatives within corporations by activating solutions for change with the Female Quotient equality boot camps. She's also the co-founder of the hashtag See Her movement, which is a movement led by the association of national advertisers to increase the percentage of accurate portrayals of women and girls in advertising and media.
John Darsie: (02:57)
She's also on the board of director for makers. And reminder, if you have any questions for Shelley during today's interview, you can enter them in the Q and A box at the bottom of your video screen. And with that, I'm going to turn it over to Anthony Scaramucci, who is the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge Capital as well as the chairman of SALT to a conduct today's interview.
Anthony Scaramucci: (03:16)
All right, John, thank you. Shelley, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us. I always ask this question, so I got to ask it to you as well. What do we need to know about you that we can find in John's eloquent introduction or your Wikipedia page, or your website? What do we need to know? You don't have to go into your first romance or anything like that, but we need something.
Shelley Zalis: (03:42)
[inaudible 00:03:42] First of all, I always love when we get to hang together, because our conversations are always unplugged. They're very, very candid. Anything goes, and we get to truth. And they're really all about authenticity, unplugging the good, bad, and the ugly, where we are, where we want to go and how we get there. I don't think it's a secret. I am well known as the chief troublemaker. I break all the rules and rewrite them because they really don't make sense. They were written so long ago. At some point we need to evolve and make sure that we attract and retain our best talent inside of the workplace. So I think that's probably number one. Number two, I am a solar eclipse chaser. So I traveled the globe chasing eclipses, which is miraculous. And every single time I see one, they're always different. The beauty is you can't take a picture for Instagram, because you got to wear your protective glasses, but it's a feeling that you get that life has this rhythm. And it's just[crosstalk 00:04:48]
Anthony Scaramucci: (04:47)
When was the first solar eclipse that you saw of that you can remember?
Shelley Zalis: (04:53)
The first one I saw was in Galapagos Island, we had to take a little boat. If you get seasick, don't do these adventures. Because I was also in Turkey on the Black Sea for another one. You need to be in pitch darkness to experience the magic and the beauty of an eclipse, but being on the water in the Galapagos, it's remarkable because you go from a sun, you go from day to night, within a minute for a total eclipse. And that's when you see the diamond ring effect, but what happens is the birds, they have no idea what's happening. So when the eclipse goes to total darkness, you see the birds darting and diving into the water because they're so confused. So I think it was Galapagos.
Anthony Scaramucci: (05:39)
All right. So it's a good segue. Men, have they been eclipsing women for three or 4,000 years, 5,000 years?
Shelley Zalis: (05:49)
Well, the truth is, and we're about to celebrate the 100 year anniversary of women's right to vote even though the date is different for white and for black women. I don't think they've been eclipsing. They've just been dominating. They have been the majority. Women have not been in the workplace for as long as men have. So I would say the rules were written by men for men over a hundred years ago because women just weren't in the workplace. And so we've still been playing catch up and we've been conforming to the rules that have been written that we are now inheriting. And so this is why it's a crucial moment to close the gaps all around parody. We know the wage gap, 80 cents on the dollar for women in general, we just celebrated black women's equal pay day, 64 cents on the dollar Latinas, 53 cents on the dollar, we need to close the gap. We need to close the pipeline gap. We start 50/50, finance technology, a little less. We ended less than 17%. We fall off in the middle management because caregiving is still predominantly a female issue.
Shelley Zalis: (06:51)
And then when we look at the policies, we need to rewrite the policies with better parental leave policies and healthcare policies and mobility policies, if we truly want to see more equality in the workplace and also more diversity of thought and mindset.
Anthony Scaramucci: (07:09)
So if you had to rewrite the rules, let's say that you could embolden those tablets. You could inscribe those tablets. What are some of the core tenants of rule rewriting that you would want?
Shelley Zalis: (07:22)
Well, I think number one, hire for passion. We often hire for experience. And if you think about retrofitting a salary, when you come and you go for a job interview, the first question is, well, what did you make in your last job? Which by the way, in a lot of states is illegal now and you say, "Oh, I made $50,000." And they would say, "Well, today's your lucky day. You get a 20% increase." Well, if a guy comes in and they get asked the same question, what did you make? And they say 70,000. Today's your lucky day, you're going to get a 20% increase. So we're already starting with an inequity at the table, number one.
Shelley Zalis: (08:01)
I think number two, from the job descriptions of what we're looking for, historically, the masculine, we're looking for a decisive, aggressive, analytic, linear, serious leader that can deliver a did that in your honor, a great bottom line versus, we're looking for an empathetic, compassionate, nurturing, collaborative, visionary leader that can deliver a great bottom line.
Shelley Zalis: (08:27)
We have that imposter syndrome, that voice in our head, both men and women, men just ignore it. Women let it get louder and louder and we don't feel we're qualified. And even in COVID days, if you look at the countries that have reacted first proactively, they were countries run by women because inherently we have those soft skills. We're nurturers, plenty of men have them, plenty of women have the masculine, but these are the kinds of things we need to look for. And then of course not just fill the pipeline, but create the pathway to success so that we see a higher retention to leadership level. So a few things that we need to-
Anthony Scaramucci: (09:07)
[inaudible 00:09:07] It's very well said. I'm always intrigued by the way you're coming at this. I want to talk a little bit about the Female Quotient, something you started at the 2012 Consumer Electronics Show. Tell us what the Female Quotient means. And tell us a little bit about your events and tell us about the progress you feel that women are making, and you've been a big catalyst, a big contributor to that.
Shelley Zalis: (09:30)
Thank you.
Anthony Scaramucci: (09:31)
It's a big question. A medic question there, Shelley.
Shelley Zalis: (09:35)
That's what you're all about.
Anthony Scaramucci: (09:37)
It's a serious medic question.
Shelley Zalis: (09:38)
There you go. Okay. Well, the Female Quotient, the name was pretty simple at six years old. We all hear a lot about IQ, the intelligence quotient. So first came IQ, the intelligence quotient then came EQ, the emotional quotient now comes, FQ the Female Quotient. When you add more women to any equation, there's a return on equality. We talk a lot about return on investment, how about return on equality, which is one of those invisible metrics that we need to make more visible. So we're all about advancing women across race, religion, age, intersectionality, LGBTQ, mobility, ability, all of those things, it's advancing women to advance equality, flipping the script, flipping the balance.
Shelley Zalis: (10:23)
And we do that in different ways. We do that through pop-up experiences at big industry conferences, across every equation, marketing, media, advertising, research, sports, music, finance, every equation needs more of everything, if we truly want diversity of thought. The reflection, we need representation and reflection for people to bring their best selves, their whole selves to the table. And at pre-COVID, we were doing upwards of 70 pop-ups a year, from as you said, CES for technology to the World Economic Forum and everything in between like the NBA All-Stars, as well as Dreamforce, et cetera.
Shelley Zalis: (11:04)
And then, we are launching a dinner series to unite the world to the power of women around the globe in over a 100 countries, bringing together communities of women all in business that can share and support one another to find our voices, stand in our power, own our ambition, not conform, but transform and really create the invisible and make that quite visible. And then we go into companies and do the hard work. It's great to have uncomfortable conversations together, power by collaboration, but then we need to create the action steps, the solutions for change and the measurement for accountability. We do that through a boot camps, helping companies become a quality fit and to change the equation.
Shelley Zalis: (11:48)
And so that's basically, what we do in a very non-textbooky way, because it really is about conscious mindset. Equality is a choice. Unconscious bias is an excuse. If you use the word unconscious, you're conscious. Once aware, what are you going to do? Something or nothing. And you use the word progress. As long as we keep making progress. When we look at the data, Anthony, you and I both go to the World Economic Forum, they publish reports that say, it'll take over 257 years to close the pay gap, and over 99.5 years to realize gender parody in the C-suite, that's not acceptable for you or for me. And so, as long as we are taking steps forward, that's progress, and I can't wait to enter 57 years. So I'd like to get this done within 10.
Anthony Scaramucci: (12:40)
Okay, great. How far have we gotten in the last 25? Have we made progress?
Shelley Zalis: (12:45)
We've gone backwards.
Anthony Scaramucci: (12:47)
Yeah, tell me why. I actually think we've gone backwards. That's why I'm asking the question. So tell me why, Shelley.
Shelley Zalis: (12:52)
Yeah. We've gone backwards. A, I think we keep talking about the problems and I always say signing pledges and petitions is a surrogate for doing nothing. You can hide behind the, "Oh, I'm making a pledge." A pledge is not an action. There are companies that have made progress. Marc Benioff for Salesforce made a conscious decision to close the gap within his organization. We all have control. We all have power and we all have responsibility to make a difference within our organization. We can't fix the world, but with what we can regulate and what we can control, we have the power and the responsibility to do that. When you look at the United States, according to the World Economic Forum, they measure 144 countries on gender equality. United States three years ago was number 28 out of 144. Last year, we bounced to 41, 42, 43 that's backwards.
Shelley Zalis: (13:46)
So I think that we are now in with COVID, the BLM, we are seeing a disproportionate impact. The gap is widening for women and for black women in particular. So if we truly want to get on track to move forward faster, A, we need to do it together. B, we need to be conscious about the choices that we make and C, we need to hold ourselves accountable with measurement. Let's look at where we are, where we want to go and then decide how we're going to get there. And we're going to have to make some tough choices.
Anthony Scaramucci: (14:23)
Well, I think everything you're saying is spot on. The underlying question is we're going backwards for a reason, right? There's inertia, there's lip service. But what else do you think it is? Do you think that there's a cultural thing that we haven't been able to overcome? Whether it's intentional, subconscious, cultural stereotypes, what is it that's causing the recession?
Shelley Zalis: (14:50)
Well, I think that if we keep following status quo, we won't ever close the gaps. The only way to close the gaps is to close the door and open a new one equal pay for equal work, number one, that's parody. And then policy caregiving. Caregiving is still predominantly a female issue. Leadership is still predominantly by default a male issue. And so we need policies that will allow people to bring their best selves and their whole selves to the table. I think that, that is really important, because caregiving is where women fall off in middle management or what we call the messy middle. And I think also culture. Creating a culture where everyone feels like they are seen, they are heard and they belong. And that requires representation at every level. I think there's at least a minimum of 30% threshold before we'll see a transformation of culture and reflection. I want to see me. I don't want to be the only one at the table. So more of everything, creates this natural evolutionary culture shift.
Anthony Scaramucci: (16:03)
Do you think men fear women in the workplace?
Shelley Zalis: (16:08)
I don't think so. I think that gender equality is not a female issue. It's a social and economic issue. I think yes, there is a scarcity of jobs at the top. But I just... And I think men are great partners, which is why lexicon, I never say we need male allies, because it's not... Women didn't create the problem. We need leadership allies, and by default it's men. And so I think there are more men and so we have more ability to activate change, but even when there's women running companies, we haven't seen tremendous progress.
Shelley Zalis: (16:43)
It really needs to be conscious steps forward and making those decisions of not just filling the pipeline because we're filling the pipeline with diversity. It's, we need to ensure step two, that we have a diverse hiring team and that we hire for the team, not for the job, because if you hire for the job, you're maybe self-selecting. If you make a commitment and accountability that you are going to hire for the team to have diversity, it's a different mindset. So I think we just need some mindset shifting and some courage and some bravery to step out of our comfort zone.
Anthony Scaramucci: (17:23)
And I need to ask you this question, because I've heard you articulate it before, and I want you to articulate it here, why is it so valuable for companies to have women in senior management?
Shelley Zalis: (17:34)
Well, I think when you have more of the soft powers, and that is the empathy. I think that to me, the greatest leaders today are empathetic leaders, are leaders that inspire, are leaders that have that compassion and passion, and also the experience, especially if they have family. I think that, that comes into play of a lot of the policies that you also will allocate and reallocate to make sure that you are creating the right culture. I think culture is so important for business success, especially if you want to attract the next generation, which our future leaders, which I call our now generation, you need to have an empathetic lens, but also a collaborative one where it is about safety and security and making sure that you are creating the right environment to have the best talent and not just the available talent.
Anthony Scaramucci: (18:37)
Yeah. So it's emotional diversity as well as competence and core competence and values and everything like that. I think it's very well said. Let's go to the Me Too movement for a moment. Because I've also heard you talk about this and I think you have some brilliant insights there. Has the Me Too movement been productive in terms of bringing equality to the workplace?
Shelley Zalis: (19:02)
I think The Me too movement, and I really applaud the Me Too movement. The Me Too movement has done a really great job of opening up the conversation in a collaborative way because when your alone voice, and I've been that lone wolf most of my career. To create a new ecosystem for change, you need to have the pack. We call it the FQ pack. A company alone is power collectively, we have impact. The woman alone is power collectively we have impact. It's an impact moment. And so I think it's done an amazing job to break the silence and to start using that megaphone for change. I think that what we need to see more of now is the proactive positive solutions for change versus just putting people on the defense. Not everyone is a predator. There are bad apples. But most humans are good to the core. Most humans are good to the core and each of[crosstalk 00:20:06]
Anthony Scaramucci: (20:05)
I approve that as well.
Shelley Zalis: (20:07)
... And sometimes we just need a little ding, to point something out, make someone aware that what they are doing or saying, and there's a degree of sexual harassment from sexual harassment to sexual assault, of course. And so I think that sometimes it's also saying you're making me uncomfortable. This is where the platinum rule, we talked about the golden rule, do unto others as you'd want done unto yourself, the platinum rule, do unto others as they'd want done unto themselves, because what might be okay for me might not be okay for you. And so there are degrees. So once aware, then they need education and then we need action steps. But then there's also the bad apples. I have zero tolerance. I don't care how talented you are and how smart you are, if you are not an inclusive leader and you are not making everyone on your team feel comfortable and safe and secure, get rid of them, they do not belong. And so I've zero tolerance for that and of course-
Anthony Scaramucci: (21:11)
Yeah, I agree with you, but I think it also begs the question. John is chomping at the bit here to get some audience questions. We're going to go there in a second. And then he'll try to steal the show from both of us, Shelley. But you and I are going to do our best to prevent that.
Shelley Zalis: (21:25)
We share.
Anthony Scaramucci: (21:25)
But it begs the question about the cancel culture, I've heard you talked about this as well. And so are we missing an educational opportunity by trying to remove people from the conversation or do certain people deserve to be canceled? I don't know Allen's being canceled now. I don't know. Maybe she deserves to be. I don't know the facts set, so I'm not sitting here judgmentally about any of these people, but I'm just wondering if do we really built a people or we canceling them? If you go to jail, you get 10 years and then you come out, you get rehabilitated or just certain people should be permanently canceled from our society. What's your take on that?
Shelley Zalis: (22:06)
Listen, I don't think that any leader and I think leadership is not about age or title. It's about action. I don't think that anyone belongs in a corporate environment where they are creating culture and inspiring team and trying to get the best team at the table should be there if they are not qualified and qualified for me is not just delivering bottom line numbers. To me, it's about being accountable and responsible for a culture of care and a culture of belonging. So if they are not that person, they do not belong because, we have to walk the talk.
Anthony Scaramucci: (22:51)
Can they'd be reformed though, I guess, is the question.
Shelley Zalis: (22:54)
Well, not on my watch. I'd send them away, somewhere else and put them back in a role if they're talented and reformed, but not to manage people and create this culture within. I don't want those kinds of people creating a culture. And so I believe in reform and I'm completely supportive of that, but not on the job while they're making other people feel uncomfortable. Why should I want to come to work and not feel safe? And so we are starting to see a lot of new tools come out, because also reporting, HR needs to be not just pushing paper and that's why we're moving to chief diversity officer, chief inclusion officer, chief belonging officer, chief people officer. It needs to be an active process where we don't shut our eyes and push it under the table because that is going to keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger until it bursts.
Shelley Zalis: (23:53)
And I would never want to create that kind of environment. And I might not do it intentionally. And that's why I said, at the beginning, it's pointing out some things and there's microaggression all the way to assault. Assault is zero tolerance. Bye-bye, you are not in this... I don't want you in my home period. And I don't want you to be around other people. So I think-
Anthony Scaramucci: (24:15)
I think it's important for you to emphasize... Listen, I think it's important to emphasize this because through that educational process, hopefully you're going to get some people to wake up and recognize, hey, that's a binary thing. It's one versus zero. You're here. If you can hold yourself in the right way, you're not here and your career is more or less going to get may laid, if you're going to do things that are inappropriate or making other people feel uncomfortable. So I do think there has to be a zero tolerance in that way. I'm just wondering out loud about the rehabilitation process. And I get the feeling that, okay, wait a minute. Maybe some people can never be rehabilitated, but the flip side is, because I guess I grew up, I don't know, should I grew up as a Catholic? You're always seeking some level of redemption for people, but I hear you, I think it's important because you're...
Anthony Scaramucci: (25:05)
What I love about your movement is you're talking about a cultural seismic change in how we're doing things, which ironically is going to unleash a lot more empowerment, a lot more innovation, a lot more... In the diversity, there is so much strength because you're getting so much creativity from that process. So I hear you, I got to turn it over to John Darsie, because you've got lots of people on here that are looking as ask you questions, Shelley.
Shelley Zalis: (25:33)
Anthony, wait. John, sorry. I just want to jump into, and especially with BLM, it's not just about having conversations about racism, it's becoming an anti-racist. That is an action. That is not just textbook[crosstalk 00:25:48] learning an education. That is about a feeling and a becoming. And it's not a to-do list. It's a to be. Who do you want to be? And that is about education through immersion.
Anthony Scaramucci: (26:05)
I agree with that. Well, let me ask you before we get to John, let me ask you this.
Shelley Zalis: (26:06)
[inaudible 00:26:06] Go on before John.
Anthony Scaramucci: (26:06)
The George Floyd incident, I'm going to guess give my editorial opinion here. I think for many people, it was a transformative thing, in meaning like, okay, wait a minute, nobody should be tolerating this level. I don't even know what the personal relationship is between the two people, but nobody should be tolerating an eight minute and 46 second murder on a street. Nobody should be tolerating that. So, it was very eyeopening and I think it did shift the bell curve of the culture. I do believe that. For a lot of people, it was a wake up experience. Do you believe that? Or again, that's my opinion. Do you feel that way?
Shelley Zalis: (26:43)
We've all known. We've all heard, but it was that wake up call we all saw and we all felt, and once you feel there is no turning back, and that is why this is-
Anthony Scaramucci: (26:58)
Is there a moment in the women's movement that is George Floyd like in your mind or no?
Shelley Zalis: (27:05)
Oh, wow. So many moments. Even now all the work I'm doing on the 19th amendment and 100 year anniversary of women's right to vote and then realizing it wasn't the same date for black women's rights to vote. All of these moments bubble up. For me, it was personal of realizing why was the way I lead not the right way. And now 50,000 women in the workplace are all unlocking the value vault of strengths that have historically been invisible. So I think when we look at the diversity numbers, we look at the pay gap. So now with social media and with digital, we can see all of that. I'm probably owed a lot of money. I've probably been underpaid my entire career. I should go back and look at how much I'm owed. Now all of it is front and center. We see the data, we see that women in leadership are more innovative, more creative, more nurturing, more empathetic, all of these things.
Shelley Zalis: (28:12)
Now that we know all these things, there is no excuse for not fixing where we've been to where we want to go and it's not retrofitting. It can't rewrite history. It's learning from where we've been-
Anthony Scaramucci: (28:25)
Going forward.
Shelley Zalis: (28:26)
... And getting strength to go forward with positivity and proactivity,
Anthony Scaramucci: (28:28)
Well said. Go ahead, Mr. Darsie.
John Darsie: (28:32)
Of course, I just want to say Anthony and I are both-
Anthony Scaramucci: (28:35)
And yes, Shelley does notice that George Washington poster behind you, she's trying to figure out if you're trying to tie that to your relatives and your family tree. You go ahead.
John Darsie: (28:44)
A lot of our viewers were sending me private messages that they were very eager for the return of George Washington. So I'm glad to have brought it back for them. But first, I just want to say, thank you, Shelley for all you're doing, Anthony and I both have daughters. Mine a little bit younger than Anthony's, but you're paving the way for hopefully a future where there'll be able to achieve and-
Anthony Scaramucci: (29:04)
No question.
John Darsie: (29:05)
... Gain greater equality in the workplace. So we're very grateful for-
Shelley Zalis: (29:07)
It's important for our daughters and our sons, by the way. This is as much for our daughters as well as far as sons, because equality starts in the home and with shared responsibility. And so thank you for saying that, but I do want to say this is for our boys and for our girls.
John Darsie: (29:23)
Well, my daughter definitely rules our home. So if that's any indication, that's the way it's going to go. She has two younger brothers. But I want to talk about... So we talked about the Equality Lounge, which is an activation that you bring to all of basically the most important events around the world. You talked about the World Economic Forum, you're at Cannes lions. You're at, of course the world famous SALT conference. How important is it for you to have that visible conspicuous representation at these events? And what does that symbolism do for the women that are in your community?
Shelley Zalis: (29:54)
Well, I think World Economic Forum, we are now the destination for equality at the World Economic Forum, that we will be going on our sixth year and it's for men and for women, it's for leadership to have uncomfortable conversations and unscripted. It's where we talk about the good, bad, and the ugly, share the case studies for what's working. So, as Anthony and I talked about, how do we not have to... We've all been doing the same thing separately, which is one of the reasons we've also been going backwards, how do we share what works so that we don't have to keep making the same mistakes consistently over and over. And that's how progress happens. We bring 50 women with us, 50 power women to Davos, at the World Economic Forum, there's less than 17% women leaders represented there.
Shelley Zalis: (30:41)
We bring 50 and all of a sudden, we changed the equation. Permission, no permission, we just showed up, no apology. And now on the street up and down, you see women all over the place. And so, I think that representation is really important, especially because with representation comes reflection, with reflection comes change and with change comes impact.
Shelley Zalis: (31:05)
And so I think that we are impacting tremendous change, not by waiting and watching, but by doing, and being, and that really created a big shift. And when you look at women in history, back to the Anthony's question, women have historically been invisible and written out of history. We're not going to be written out of history. We are going to show up, front and center, stand in our power, owner ambition and bring our strengths to the table. Why? Because they're needed, we make the table better not to fill a quota. And so I think this is why it matters. And most importantly, bringing leadership, men and women, conscious leadership to put their foot down, walk the talk, take those steps forward. We all need to do that together.
John Darsie: (31:51)
Yeah. We were talking a little bit before we went live about the importance of unity in these types of movements. You've even done work in places like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the UAE where you're taking these groups of women who traditionally haven't had the same level of rights as women have had in the Western world. And you've brought them together. You had an interesting anecdote from your time in Saudi Arabia. Just talk about how important that unity is and that some of the things you're working on in places where women are, even more disenfranchised than they are in the Western world.
Shelley Zalis: (32:22)
First of all, the women in Saudi Arabia, I don't know... Well, because it's the most I can say this. Women in Saudi Arabia are bad ass. I got to say they are badass and with-
Anthony Scaramucci: (32:31)
You can say a lot worse than that. I've been fired for worse than that.
Shelley Zalis: (32:37)
We need another hour for this conversation, but they are so impressive. I took 50 women to dinner and it was incredible. They said, "Shelley, there has been so much progression for women in the past couple of years in Saudi Arabia, we just get locked in time and assume what we knew is what really is, and that is not true." Perception is not reality. And that's why Getty is doing so much work with Getty Images. Really when you Google a Saudi women in business, you're going to see really remarkable women doing incredible things. And so, so much progression. And Princess Reema, is a very dear friend. She's the princess that gave women the right to drive. And yes, there's still some progress that needs to happen, but they have made remarkable progress.
Shelley Zalis: (33:24)
And at FII, there were women on the stage there, and I didn't have to go where a hijab, even though I didn't mind. I'm culturally respectful, but a lot has changed. And one of the things they said to me, which was surprising was they said their children, especially their daughters, when they got to a certain age historically wanted to leave Saudi Arabia and go to America for their education, they're all coming back now because they want to be part of the legacy changes and the progression that is happening there.
John Darsie: (33:57)
Yeah, that's great. And we've experienced a lot of the same with our conference we did last year in Abu Dhabi. There's a significant movement on the ground there that's being supported by male leaders in the country towards greater equality. And they have certain quotas of women they're trying to hire into government, minister positions and senior management. So it's exciting to see that type of change taking place in that part of the world. We ask every guest this based on their area of expertise, but how is technology affecting this idea of equality in the workplace for women minorities and others? Is it accelerating it, is it a hindrance to a greater equality and progress in that area? How is sort of the pandemic and the result and effects of that as it relates to technology affecting your work?
Shelley Zalis: (34:43)
It's been quite remarkable. Technology's an enabler. And especially during COVID times, when we talk about being socially distance, I say we're physically distanced, but more socially connected than ever before. For us at the Female Quotient while we were doing 7 day live physical popups pre-COVID, we've done over 300 plus plus conversations with over 1200 speakers in the last five months. So from a representation of speakers, from global access. When we do them at conferences, it's the privilege that are at that conference, even though it's inclusive for all that's at the conference. Now, the reach is wider. And when you look at technology, especially for mobility and a lot of women being able to be at home on their screens. And one of the biggest challenges that is creating stress, mental health issues are primary caregivers.
Shelley Zalis: (35:47)
Women that have full time jobs that are on Zoom all day and always had the responsibility, the predominant responsibility for their homes, now also have to take on the educator responsibility, that is not easy. And if you haven't experienced it, you really don't understand the impact. How can I be in this room Zooming all day, working with my little children banging on the door? What's for breakfast, what's for lunch, what's for dinner? I don't want to get on my Zoom for school, who's watching them? And so it is adding a tremendous, extra double, triple, quadruple level of intensity and stress and micromanagement for women.
Anthony Scaramucci: (36:29)
Totally, I agree.
John Darsie: (36:30)
[inaudible 00:36:30] we have a viewer who's a single father of a 10-year-old boy. He lives in Mexico, which has a specific male culture and a male-dominated culture. And he's asking what messaging works best with male children to avoid sort of that negative male dominance, toxic masculinity type of behavior.
Anthony Scaramucci: (36:51)
First of all, [foreign languange 00:36:54] and it's a very good question because, and that's why I used the word caregiving, and I say caregiving is still predominantly a female issue, but it impacts men when they are primary caregivers in the same way, hard to work long hours, hard to travel all the time, the same issues kick into place. The same opportunities also where technology is an enabler. I think the most important thing to talk to your boys about is you are already a role model. You are already showing your voice what being an empathetic human is. And we talk about work life balance issues. There is no such thing as balance. Life is not 50/50. Life is messy. You have one life with many dimensions, your work, your family, your community, your friends, and the fifth is yourself.
Anthony Scaramucci: (37:47)
So by being a walking living role model for them to show them that you have to do it all and take care of everything is the best lesson you could be teaching your children, by them seeing who you are and what you do. So that's the first thing I want to say. The second is to talk about the most important qualities as a human. And it doesn't matter if you're a boy or you're a girl, those qualities are empathy and compassion and resilience and figuring out how to multitask on steroids. That is for sure. So I think that talking about that and educating your boys to not believe they are better, we are different. And is what I share with girls all the time. We have different strengths, don't hide them and don't conform and don't make them invisible, make them visible. Your differences are your greatest strengths.
Anthony Scaramucci: (38:42)
And so talking about the differences that unite us. Oscar Wilde says, if we were all the same, we would be unnecessary, be yourself because everyone else is taken. I think that is really important as well. And the last piece is confidence. Believe in you, don't just follow others, follow your heart. And if you follow your heart, you will lead with authenticity and strength.
John Darsie: (39:11)
So we'll wrap it up with one last question from a member of our audience. And it's very relevant to SALT. SALT is primarily a financial services-driven conference and community, we also have technology and public policy integrated into our curriculum as well. But what industries in particular do you think need the most work? And what do you think are the obstacles to having more women in a money management type of positions? There's a lot of studies out there that show that women, certain qualities they bring to the table actually make better money managers. They're less emotional. Some people might think that's ironic, but they're less emotional with their decision making and things like that. What industries do you think need the most work and what are some misconceptions around what women bring to the C-suite?
Anthony Scaramucci: (39:55)
Well, first of all, financial literacy is really important. And, in general women sometimes don't ask for it and we're afraid that we might not... If we don't know the answers, we hold back. We all can learn a lot with financial literacy and even during COVID, the adaptation of investing and that investment lens is so important. When you give women more money. When we get paid, what we are worth, what we deserve, what we should earn, which is equal, we put more money into education. Education is just so incredibly important. Areas that we need more women, technology. We need more women in technology.
Anthony Scaramucci: (40:38)
When you look at AI, artificial intelligence, you look at STEM or now we call it STEAM. Or my girlfriend, Joanna calls it, STEAMEd, adding the design to science, technology, engineering, arts, and math. What goes in, goes out. Bias in, bias out. And so, the algorithms are all messed up when you don't have both sides of the brain, the right, and the left, the emotive and the cognitive side, and look at inventions. And these sounds so silly. We never talk about them, but the airbag in a car, there's more fatality when the airbag opens with women than for men. Why? Because it was designed by men on the male dummies, not men are dummies. The male circle, male dummy. Our wrists are small. Our bones are small, all of those things.
Anthony Scaramucci: (41:24)
So in a crash seatbelt, add seatbelt, you guys are guys. Women, they're not comfortable. They do not fit as well anatomically. Or even when you think about your high heels on an escalator, escalators were definitely made by men. My heel gets stuck in that little escalator all the time. I have to pull my foot out or else it's going to get stuck in there. So when you look at algorithms, if we don't have the right and left brain inside of building and creating, what goes in, comes out and that's where we'll have skewed algorithms. So, I think technology, we talked about the importance of technology. We need more women at every level in tech, number one. In finance, we need more women at the top in finance, especially in how we are really running financial literacy programs and education. And looking at all of those pieces. So there are some fields that are by far underrepresented that we need more of everything, back to the Female Quotient, changing the equation.
Anthony Scaramucci: (42:32)
I want to thank you, Shelley. Because what you're doing is amazing. And as John said, I have a daughter, I have a wife, I have a mom, a lots of nieces in my life, and frankly, lots of women colleagues at SkyBridge. So we're trying to get it right. And your guidance is usually influential and very beneficial. So thank you. And we got to get you back to one of our live events so we can spark up the stage a little bit. For wreak havoc is, where you and I are both used to doing and very comfortable doing. Okay. So with that, I'll turn it back over to John. Shelley, thank you. We really grateful for you coming on today.
Shelley Zalis: (43:07)
Thank you for having me in social distance in LA. We're waiting for you.
Anthony Scaramucci: (43:11)
All right. Amen.