“The silver lining of all the things we’re going through is that it’s activated so many folks to realize their individual responsibility.”
Stephen K. Benjamin has been mayor of Columbia, SC since 2010 after getting his political start at age 29 in Governor Jim Hodges cabinet. Michael D. Tubbs is the mayor of Stockton, CA and was the city’s youngest ever to hold the office at 26. Benjamin and Tubbs each represent their city’s first ever African-American mayor.
Both mayors offer their thoughts on some of the most pressing issues around racial inequity and civil unrest. They share their unique perspectives on the history of institutional racism and how it manifests today. “The conversation we're having about, not just police brutality, but really about equality under the law, has been a 400-year conversation in this country.”
Benjamin and Tubbs also discuss some of their ground-breaking policy initiatives from police reform to opportunity zone investments designed to break the cycles of inequality and poverty.
LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE
SPEAKERS
Stephen K. Benjamin
Mayor
Columbia, South Carolina
Michael D. Tubbs
Mayor
Stockton, California
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
John Darsie (00:07):
Hello everyone, and welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is John Darsie. I'm the managing director of SALT, which is a global thought leadership forum at the intersection of finance, technology, and public policy. These SALT Talks are a series of digital interviews we've been doing, during the work from home period, to replicate what we do at our SALT conference. Which, I know one of our guests today was at our SALT conference in 2019.
John Darsie (00:30):
What we really try to do is provide a window for our audience, into the minds of subject matter experts. As well as provide a platform for big, important ideas, that we think are shaping the future of the world. We're very excited today, to bring a very relevant and topical discussion to you today, with two of the great American mayors, and two African American mayors, who have been pioneers in their communities, and have definitely been leaders in tackling some of the issues of racial inequality and social activism that we're facing today.
John Darsie (01:00):
Those two guests that we're very thrilled to be welcoming today are Mayor Stephen K Benjamin of Columbia, South Carolina, and Mayor Michael D Tubbs of Stockton, California. I'll introduce you to the bios of these two great mayors, before Anthony allows them to dive deeper into their backgrounds.
John Darsie (01:17):
Mayor Benjamin has been the mayor of Columbia, South Carolina, since July of 2010. He's the first African American mayor of that city, in the city's history. Before serving as mayor, he worked in the Columbia area as an attorney, and served on various charitable organizations. Mayor Benjamin previously served as the 76th president of the US Conference of Mayors. He's a leader within the mayoral community in the United States.
John Darsie (01:42):
Mayor Benjamin's, I would say better half, but as Anthony would say, better 9/10ths, his wife is the honorable DeAndrea Gist Benjamin. A judge in South Carolina's 5th judicial district. Together they have two beautiful daughters. He graduated with a BA and a JD from the University of South Carolina, where he served as the undergraduate student body president during his time as an undergraduate, and as the student Bar Association president during his time at the USC law school. We're very thrilled to be welcoming Mayor Benjamin today to SALT talks.
John Darsie (02:15):
Our second guest is Mayor Michael D Tubbs, who is the mayor of Stockton, California. Michael is 29 years old. He's the youngest mayor in the United States. Upon taking office in January of 2017, he both became Stockton's youngest mayor, and the city's first African American mayor, so he was a pioneer in multiple ways.
John Darsie (02:34):
Michael was also the youngest mayor, as I mentioned, in the history of the country, representing a city with a population of over 100,000 residents. Before becoming mayor, Michael served as Stockton's district six city council member, where he was elected at the age of 22 in 2013. He became one of the youngest city council members in the country at that time.
John Darsie (02:57):
He was included in Fortune Magazine's 2018 Top 40 Under 40, and Forbes Magazine's 2018 list of 30 Under 30. He graduated in 2012 from Stanford University, with a Bachelor's and Master's degree, with honors. He's been a college course instructor for the Aspire public schools, and a fellow at the Stanford Institute of Design, and the Emerson Collective. He's a Stockton native, and a proud product of the Stockton public school system.
John Darsie (03:25):
We want to thank Mayor Michael Tubbs, and Mayor Stephen Benjamin, for joining us on the talk today. Conducting the interview will be Anthony Scaramucci, who is the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge Capital, which is a global alternative investment firm. As well as the chairman of SALT, which you all know, because you're here today.
John Darsie (03:43):
I'm going to turn it over to Anthony for the interview. A reminder, if you have any questions for Mayor Tubbs or Mayor Benjamin, please type them into the Q&A box at the bottom of your video screen. With that, I'll turn it over to Anthony.
Anthony Scaramucci (03:54):
All right, John. Thank-you very much, both of you, mayors. Thank-you so much for being on with us. A couple of weeks ago, I saw a cartoon in the New Yorker, and I thought it summed up our times. It was a picture of an anchor person at a desk, and they basically said, "Well we just heard the weather from the Democratic weatherman. Now let's get the weather from the Republican one". The point being, is that we're now arguing over the facts.
Anthony Scaramucci (04:22):
Our civil debate has gone awry, because we can't even stipulate what the facts are in our society anymore. I thought it was a very interesting point, as we start this segment. You can see it in relative civil strife that's going on in the country. My first question, and I'll start with you, Mayor Benjamin. Then maybe Mayor Tubbs can answer it afterwards. Then we can just have a free flowing conversation.
Anthony Scaramucci (04:47):
My question is, what are the facts right now? Where do you see the facts, in terms of our society? Where do you think the society needs to go to heal itself?
Stephen K Benjamin (04:59):
Wow. That's a great question. Thank-you, Anthony, and thank-you, Darsie, for reading my intro just like I wrote it. I always appreciate that.
Anthony Scaramucci (05:07):
Your mother wrote that, Mayor. Who's kidding who? I mean, that was unbelievable.
Stephen K Benjamin (05:10):
It would be 20 pages longer if my mom wrote it. You know, the facts are, we are dealing with the greatest public health crisis, pandemic, since 1918. That we are dealing with an incredibly inconsistent economy. The first quarter, we saw probably the greatest economic disruption since 1932. Right now, on the streets of America, we're hearing incredible amounts of pain and passion, unlike anything we've seen nationally since 1968. All wrapped up into a couple months.
Stephen K Benjamin (05:45):
At the top of the food chain, at the head of this $23 trillion GDP, that this past quarter we saw the national debt go up significantly. We watched GDP drop five percent or so. We have political dissension, disruption. We're in an amazingly challenging place. I believe it's time for us to have leaders who realize that, at least as it relates to those of us who are proud Americans, who recognize the challenges we've face in this country for hundreds of years. Working to become that more perfect union.
Stephen K Benjamin (06:25):
That there is no red way or blue way. That at the very least, let's try to focus on a red, white, and blue approach to building that more perfect union. The reality is, each and every one of us, and I will tell you, that's probably, and I'll talk more about it later. That's probably the silver lining of all the things that we're going through. That it has activated so many folks, to realize their individual responsibility.
Stephen K Benjamin (06:48):
That the government shouldn't solve, that it can't solve all your problems. Public health professionals can't. The business community can't. That philanthropy can't do it all. That really, we all have an individual role, to step up and create this world in which we want to live. We want to make sure our parents get their due. But even more importantly, making sure we're creating a world where people like my daughters, and Michael's beautiful young son, can really have an opportunity to live up to their God given potential.
Stephen K Benjamin (07:15):
I think it's a time for leaders. It's certainly, easily the most challenging time I've faced in my many years in government, and public service, at different levels. But we're up to the task. I feel strongly that America's mayors are leading from the front, and will continue to do so.
Anthony Scaramucci (07:34):
Mayor Tubbs.
Michael D Tubbs (07:36):
First let me say, it's always good to be on with Mayor Benjamin, who started his term as mayor when I was still a college student. I'm thankful you're still in this -
Anthony Scaramucci (07:44):
Rubbing it in, man. Rubbing it in, mayor. Go ahead.
Stephen K Benjamin (07:47):
Hey, change.
Anthony Scaramucci (07:50):
All right. I'm bringing out the brine. You're rubbing it in. That's going to be one of my questions for you, Mayor Tubbs. How did you accomplish so much? If you added my lifetime with Steve's lifetime, and you divide it by two, we're barely you. We're just trying to figure out how you got to where you are. But sorry, keep going.
Michael D Tubbs (08:06):
Sorry, I have to do it.
Anthony Scaramucci (08:06):
Keep going. Keep going, Mayor.
Michael D Tubbs (08:08):
But to answer the question, I think in terms of what's true, what's been the silver lining for me is understanding this moment we're in. With the greatest global health crisis, as the mayor mentioned. But also the conversation we're having about, not just police brutality, but really about equality under the law, has been a 400 year conversation in this country.
Michael D Tubbs (08:29):
Also, I think the fact is, we've had this conversation before. I think it's given, the cascading impacts of COVID-19, and now the civil unrest, that it's time for us to re-solve these issues. The facts are, regardless as to how we feel, where we consume news, or what we'd like the world to be, there's institutionalized racism in our country.
Michael D Tubbs (08:50):
If you look at everything from who gets loans, to how toddlers are treated in pre-school, to how discipline is dolled out in elementary school. In every institution, not just policing, there's racial bias. I think what I've been most heartened about is, I'm hearing people who are Republican and Democrats, coming to the point, "This is not made up. This is true. Let's figure out how we get towards a solution".
Michael D Tubbs (09:16):
I think the fact also is, that now is a time for real patriots, as Mayor Benjamin said. For people who really believe in what we wrote in our constitution. That we want to form a union, where all people are created equal, are entitled and able to pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That we believe in equality under the law, for everybody in our country.
Michael D Tubbs (09:39):
It's great rhetoric. We've seen over the past 400 years, it's hard to put it in practice. But I think this moment demands that we push further, and push, farther, to get there.
Anthony Scaramucci (09:50):
Well, I 100 percent believe that there's institutional racism. Just a quick story. I'm at Harvard Law School, my first semester. There are three African American students, male students, in my section. They are walking on Massachusetts Avenue, to a convenience store after 11:00 at night. They're arrested by the Cambridge police. Literally, all they were doing was going to get a cup of coffee. They, blah blah blah, ensued.
Anthony Scaramucci (10:17):
30 years later, there was another incident just like that in Cambridge. I remember, president Obama got involved in it. I remember thinking, about tying those two things together. I said, "My god, there is absolutely institutional racism". It's a question for both of you. What do you say to those people who say that there isn't institutional racism? How do you ... This is my point about facts. How do you debate somebody, "Well sir, do you think there's institutional racism?". "No, I don't think there is". How do you go about it? How do you debate it?
Stephen K Benjamin (10:51):
I would encourage folks, those who care about their country, who often profess it in different ways. Often politically. To really take these opportunities to listen. My grandma would say that God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason. You should listen twice as much as you talk. Right now, I would tell you that the most edifying and powerful conversations I've had, with people young enough to be my son, like Mayor Tubbs, and others. I went out, and I'd sit. I would say, I spend a lot of time backed by law enforcement, so I spend a lot of time with our officers.
Stephen K Benjamin (11:30):
But I also get out into the streets, and sit down with the protesters. Social distance, wearing a mask, the whole nine yards. But I don't get there and tell them about all the things we're doing, all the things their government's doing to make their world better. I just sat there and asked them, "Tell me your stories. I want to hear your stories".
Stephen K Benjamin (11:46):
If you listen to what's happening in the world right now, so those classmates of yours from 30 years ago, and seeing the same things happen 30 years later. I assure you, 30 years before that, it was actually the law of the land, and 30 years before that. The fact that structural racism, differential access to goods and services, is real in America. That we know personally, mediated racism. Unconscious bias acted on, by those of us in power, is also real.
Stephen K Benjamin (12:15):
There's also internalized racism. The challenges that we may face as individuals. You know, it is very difficult. We were chatting a little bit earlier. It's tough when you have to debate facts with people now. At least back in the day, you could at least rely on data. Data would maybe solve an argument. Or maybe you could get people to focus on commerce and economy. "Let's at least make sure we prosper together".
Stephen K Benjamin (12:43):
It seems like right now, the conversation is just awry. That's why it's so important for leaders on the national level, state level, local level, those we're talking about, inter-sectoral leadership. Not just the public sector. Really find ways to bring people together, so at least we're listening to each other. But it is, it may be the challenge of our times.
Michael D Tubbs (13:09):
As the mayor said, I'm at the the point now where, if it was really about data, I'm driving actions and decision making. We're just living in a fundamentally different world. I just read something yesterday that said, the median wealth of a black family with a college degree is only 70 percent of the median wealth of a white family with just a high school diploma.
Michael D Tubbs (13:33):
Stats like that, to me, just really illustrate, it's not about just the actions people are taking. It's not about people not having education. It's not about people not working hard. It's something that's systematic. It's insidious. But it's also literally in every institution. If I had time, we could talk, we could go through every institution. From the banking system, to the school system, to the prison system.
Michael D Tubbs (13:55):
That if the outcomes are the same, then the discussion has to be, do we really think there's something inferior about black people that lead to these outcomes? Or is there something that's being done? I think that's the conversation we have to have. What I've found, like Mayor Benjamin, in talking with people, that sometimes the data has to be connected with a story. A story of someone, if people don't know, that they see, touch, feel.
Michael D Tubbs (14:21):
I know when I talk about how, even as mayor, when I go take a run at the local university half a mile from my house, each and every time I'm greeted with campus security who are circling. Because they don't realize I'm the mayor. When they do, they wave and drive off. While my friends who aren't black, when they go around to campus, they never see campus security.
Michael D Tubbs (14:41):
I know just in sharing those stories, I think it's allowing people to realize that, "Wow". We had one conversation with some folks in the community. I said, "No, I get it. The institutions have worked for you and your family. You've seen it work. You guys have made something. I get that. But those same institutions don't work in that way for my family". When I said it like that, I saw something click. Like, "Oh, wow".
Michael D Tubbs (15:08):
I think part of it is allowing people to understand that, your experience in America, your experience with police, your experience with schools, your experience with banks, your experience with love, is not a universal experience. That there's other experiences. That doesn't make your experience less. But your experience is not the only truth.
Michael D Tubbs (15:26):
I think that's part of it. I think it's also having tough conversations like this, that are frank and that are honest, and are done in a way that has multiple races talking. I was telling people in Stockton last week, if it was up to black people to solve racism, institutional racism, it would have been solved. We've been saying for 400 years, "This ain't right. We've got to do something about it". It's going to take allyship, and just good people, who are saying, "You know what? We want everyone to have universal human dignity".
Michael D Tubbs (15:56):
It's not easy. That doesn't mean it's easy. But it's something that I would argue is very necessary.
Anthony Scaramucci (16:02):
Mayor Tubbs, do you think something has changed? I'll ask Mayor Benjamin the same question. But the proliferation of the iPhone, or the smart phone. Where now we're on top of each other, and unfortunately we witness the horrific eight minute and 46 seconds, or other situations. The one in Atlanta. Do you think something has changed now? Where now it is so frontal, and it's in everybody's faces, that it's going to cause a spiritual awakening, and that could cause an even bigger evolution? Or do you think we're just going to get more of the same?
Michael D Tubbs (16:38):
I would say, we can't do more of the same. It feels different. The protests feel different. The civil unrest feels different. Even the actions from people who I wouldn't think would even see the need to change, at least locally, have been different. I think part of it is the iPhone. But I think part of it's what you and Mayor Benjamin mentioned when we started.
Michael D Tubbs (17:01):
It's the fact that COVID-19 really has everyone shook, and everyone anxious, and everyone insecure. In almost a shared sense of suffering.
Anthony Scaramucci (17:10):
Mm-hmm (affirmative), there's no racial bias in COVID-19. Although we have learned that certain communities have more proliferation of it. But all of us have the same DNA, right?
Michael D Tubbs (17:19):
Yeah, well -
Anthony Scaramucci (17:20):
We're all at risk. We're all at risk.
Michael D Tubbs (17:21):
I think what's been fascinating about that, we're seeing this disease, which is not racist, it's a disease. A virus. But we see how, because of racist systems, that's attacked, some people have worse outcomes. I think that's started the conversation.
Anthony Scaramucci (17:34):
Yeah, I accept that. Yeah.
Michael D Tubbs (17:35):
People are economically anxious. People are stressed. People are tuned in. People are really deeply engaged in what's happening. I think seeing that, where it's just the straw that broke the camel's back. I think it's a mixture of the iPhone. But we saw Michael Brown on the iPhone. We saw Sandra Bland be pulled over on the iPhone. Hell, Emmett Till had an open casket funeral. It's not the first time we've seen suffering in this way. But I think it's the time, in terms of a time of great transition and anxiety in this county. Where people are saying, "What's next? What's better?".
Michael D Tubbs (18:13):
You have the election coming up in November. I think all these things have created the conditions upon which this really sparked a real movement, and a real reckoning.
Anthony Scaramucci (18:25):
Is it different, Mayor Benjamin?
Stephen K Benjamin (18:27):
No, I couldn't agree more. I do believe, honestly. I think the last time I was at SALT with you, Anthony, we were talking about just how rapidly technology's changing the world. Michael and I have done conversations on AI and automation, and advanced machine learning, and how it was changing the future of work. How that would disparately impact these various communities, that also happen now to be the same essential workers that can't socially distance, that can't remote work. That don't have access to PPE.
Stephen K Benjamin (18:58):
Certainly as we adjust to the new normal, as we work our way through the pandemic, everyone's, like Michael said, at home. Watching TV, and it was, I'm not giving much to hyperbole. But it was the very first time that millions of Americans, and billions across the world, were forced to watch an eight minute and 46 second public execution. A state sponsored pubic execution.
Stephen K Benjamin (19:25):
I think it fundamentally broke people's hearts. It fundamentally changed the way that people saw the reality. It humanized that data that Michael was talking about earlier. It put a story, a real narrative on everyone's mind, that said, "No". I've heard the stories. I didn't really believe all the facts behind Trayvon, the imagery in the Rodney King thing. You know, "I'm not sure about that". Michael Brown, "I don't know his history. I don't know what happened". This story, or that story, and the millions of stories.
Stephen K Benjamin (19:59):
Particularly Millennials, Michael's generation, and the Zoomers now, have really been sharing. But everyone was forced to watch a man rendered helpless. Die before our eyes. I think it broke America's heart, and it spurred this energy. That now, I think our job as leaders in our different spheres, is again, how do you get that pain and that passion, and turn it into progress? How do you utilize our democratic institutions, which were not all government, and channel it in a way that you can get real, immediate change, going in the right direction?
Stephen K Benjamin (20:37):
That gets us past bumper sticker responses. If it's, "Defund the police", whoever happens to answer. What does that really mean to people? Are we talking about finding different ways to invest in actually creating just communities? That's where the leaders step in. You bottle up all that, everybody having this moment, and really turn it into a real movement that moves a country.
Anthony Scaramucci (21:00):
I'm going to kick it over to John Darsie. He's got a few questions from our audience, Mayor. But I do agree with you. Hopefully this is a seminal moment for all of us, where we'll start more healing. But John, go ahead. I know you have a question for both mayors.
John Darsie (21:13):
Yeah. I know, Mayor Tubbs, you alluded to the fact that black people have been talking about these issues for 400 years. Certainly, a lot of people are now talking about police reform, and changing policing tactics, as a result of the social unrest that we've seen. I want to direct this question at Mayor Benjamin.
John Darsie (21:31):
In 2014, you introduced an initiative called Justice For All. Which implemented new training, competitive pay, diverse representation, and different elements of community engagement. To strengthen the relationship between law enforcement, and the communities in which they serve. I think in general, policing is just one element of institutional racism, for sure.
John Darsie (21:54):
But also, within policing, it's not just the idea that we shouldn't be violently confronting situations that don't need to be violently confronted. But it's just about the relationship between the police, and the communities in which they serve. How do we need to rethink, in general, policing in this country? Racism is one element of it. But just in terms of how they engage with their constituents?
Stephen K Benjamin (22:19):
Thank-you. As a city, and as a police department, we have a fantastic chief of police. We gravitated rapidly towards president Obama's leadership on 21st century policing. Recognizing that these generational challenges have existed between law enforcement, the men and women who run towards danger when we're running the other direction, and the communities that they serve. Particularly communities of color.
Stephen K Benjamin (22:41):
We formulated justice for all, using a number of the principles of his 21st century policing initiative, and decided that we would build a department that focused on, first, transparency. Because that's always been an issue. On accountability, and work and build trust. We had to completely revamp the way in which we recruited and trained our officers.
Stephen K Benjamin (23:02):
We put the president of our Columbia Urban League on our hiring board. Two years later, 68 percent of our new hires were African American, Latino, Asian, and female. Trying to get a force that looked more like the city. We put in incentives for officers, to advance in their education, in the things that we value. Obviously we put bonuses in place, for them to meet those measurements.
Stephen K Benjamin (23:27):
We also put a hiring bonus, and also a residency bonus in place. An officer who wants to move into a home in our city, because it's important that there be some type of emotional connection between those officers and the communities they serve. That an officer can move into a home. No down payment. Low interest rate. 30 year. It's a really creative program, we modify to meet our officers.
Stephen K Benjamin (23:49):
But we also went 100 percent body cam. We started recording video and audio recording of any of those charged with violent crimes. Then using data. Trying to humanize that data. To share information, and use of force. How, if there's a police involved shooting, how it's independently investigated. All again to try and change the framework, in a way that's systemic. That, whether Mayor Benjamin was there, or Chief [Holbrook 00:24:15] was there, these gains would be sustained over a period of time.
Stephen K Benjamin (24:18):
I say all that to say, John, that even those things that we did in the wake of Michael Brown's death in Ferguson, still not enough right now. Right now we're at a moment, where we're not talking only about reinventing policing as we know it. But even re-imagining. Re-imagining how you provide for safer communities.
Stephen K Benjamin (24:41):
Michael, quoting Mahatma Gandhi, talks about poverty being a form of violence. Other was in which you can rebuild communities. Maybe even, yes, we have cops right now, guys, overworked and underpaid. Because they're doing everything. We're asking them to be mental health counselors. Ask to be social workers. We're asking them to be all these things that go beyond being a guardian or a warrior, that they ought not be doing.
Stephen K Benjamin (25:10):
We'll train them, to make sure that they're well rounded and have a skillset. But that's not their job. We've got to find ways to create safer communities, so that when you have an issue that's a humble, or note a real public safety threat, you don't need strangers with guns showing up. Regardless of how altruistic they are.
Stephen K Benjamin (25:29):
We made some strides then, in 2014. But right now, we're at a point where we're even re-imagining the role of our law enforcers, and our role in helping create healthier, stronger, more vibrant and equitable communities.
John Darsie (25:43):
Thank-you, Mayor Benjamin. I want to direct a followup to Mayor Tubbs. You touched a little bit on incentivizing educational growth within the police force. Mayor Tubbs, I know you've done a lot of things, in terms of trying to promote education within Stockton. Obviously you prioritize education from a young age. You're a graduate of Stanford University, with honors. You secured over $20 million in philanthropic capital for Stockton Scholars, which is a program that, you aim to triple the number of Stockton students graduating from college.
John Darsie (26:15):
How do we level the playing field, in terms of public education in the United States?
Michael D Tubbs (26:24):
Yeah, that's a great question. I appreciate you asking that, because this moment, I think the policing conversation that we're having nationally is symptomatic of a wider conversation, that includes things like education.
Michael D Tubbs (26:35):
I think to level the education playing field, all the research says, it really starts at zero to three. Like Mayor Benjamin said, poverty is a great indicator of educational attainment. Doing everything we can to prevent families from being in poverty, or helping families who are in poverty leave poverty.
Michael D Tubbs (26:54):
All the research tells us the between zero and three, children do word acquisition, and acquire language. That has a big impact. Also, in terms of adverse childhood experiences, I think using, again data, about how adverse childhood experiences or childhood trauma impact brain development. Or impact academic success. Doing what we can, in terms of interventions.
Michael D Tubbs (27:15):
What they have in Providence, Rhode Island, where they have social workers and other people work with families, to make sure kids are reading, and hearing enough words. It means policy, like paid family leave and things of that sort, so parents can actually be home with their children. To be their first educators. It means things like universal pre-school.
Michael D Tubbs (27:36):
But I think also, if you look at the data, the data tells us that kids of color are more likely to go to schools with the least qualified teachers, and the least funding. Which seems just, it seems like it should be the opposite. Particularly if we're talking about parity. I think it's also looking at, in terms of how you make sure that every child and every school has a qualified teacher in the classroom, who's well trained and well resourced.
Michael D Tubbs (28:01):
How you make sure that they have curriculum, and education. I think part of it starts with, again, at a national level, the supreme court edict around making education a fundamental right. Because in this country, based off the Seattle ... Not Seattle. San Antonio case in 1973. Education's not even a right for American citizens. I think it starts from there.
Michael D Tubbs (28:25):
Once it becomes codified as a right, then we can have the conversation about, how do you make sure that that ZIP code doesn't correlate with destiny? That schools aren't funded solely based off property taxes? That the least qualified, the least experienced, the non-credentialed teachers are teaching the kids who are starting out a little bit more behind. How do we reverse that?
Michael D Tubbs (28:46):
Again, big issue. But there are data driven solutions. They aren't necessarily easy, but are necessarily for truly serious about using education as a lever, to help equal the playing field.
John Darsie (28:59):
Yeah. You touched on the fact that education and policing are somewhat intertwined. I think all these issues relating to institutional racism are somewhat intertwined. I want to direct this question at Mayor Benjamin. At 29 years old, it was 1999. Governor Jim Hodges appointed you as to the cabinet as director of the state's second largest law enforcement agency. It was the department of probation, parole, and pardon services.
John Darsie (29:25):
As it relates to criminal justice reform, going beyond policing, what effect does it have in African American communities and minority communities, when we're putting people in jail for non-violent crimes? When children in the African American community are growing up without fathers in the home sometimes? How do we change that system, to break this cycle of poverty, and this cycle, as it relates to poor education circumstances within the African American community?
Stephen K Benjamin (29:53):
Well I think obviously, just the fact that you're asking the question is a wonderful step forward. So many folks have refused to connect the dots, of what the effect of longterm policy decisions. The fact that we spend $200 billion a year on police, and prosecutors, and prisons. We've been able to profit, because of a number of these industries.
Stephen K Benjamin (30:22):
I literally just took a call from governor Hodges, who 20 years later, he still thinks I work for him. Some of you may know him. He's my dear friend, and been a great mentor. But he gave me an opportunity as a very young individual, to step into a place. I'd been prepared as a political science major, as a young lawyer. Very altruistic, and had all these ideas about these theories I'd learned.
Stephen K Benjamin (30:45):
To actually put them into action, running the state's second largest law enforcement agency. Be able to show people that you can actually create safe communities. We were unrepentant about making sure that people were held accountable. Particularly those that had been engaged in violent crimes. But the very same time, we had to make sure people were able to reintegrate into society, and give them a chance to live up to their God given potential
Stephen K Benjamin (31:11):
We worked with the NAACP and others, to get people re-registered to vote. We required and worked with, we established some program that actually brought people back into the economic mainstream. Gave them jobs. It was a wonderful opportunity to do so. But I think the basis of your question is also the answer to your question. Recognizing that each of these things are inextricably linked, and that we are all connected. Relationships are interdependent.
Stephen K Benjamin (31:45):
So that in order to deal with these things, it's going to take investment. It's going to take thoughtful policy. That policy's going to have to be humanized and compassionate. But very intentional. I think, and realize that some of these solutions are not going to happen overnight. That it took us literally several centuries to get here. It's going to take us time to turn the corner.
Stephen K Benjamin (32:11):
But there are some things that we can do today, right now, to start building on those communities. I would tell you, just as you know, I've spent a lot of my time in elementary schools. Even since my children left elementary school, I've been in over 300 different classrooms since I started my term as mayor. I love being around children, I love being around senior citizens. Everybody in between, I can take or give on any given day.
Stephen K Benjamin (32:38):
But when you around these children, particularly as Michael said, when they're very young, you can see the hope, and aspiration, and the promise, and the gifts. When the little boys aren't too old, they still want to hug you, and grab you, and tell you how awesome you are, and how proud they are of you. They look at the face of this African American man, and they're still trying to figure out, "How in the world did you become the mayor of our city?".
Stephen K Benjamin (33:05):
It's a special time. Then we allow them to lose that. Because they're dealing with issues that I didn't have to deal with as a child. I never had to worry about safety or security, or shelter. We lived in a rough neighborhood. But a very stable household, with a daddy welcoming the morning early. Did leave the house, giving me a kiss, and came home late at night, after his third job sometimes. Had hugs. We'd stay up late at night, and watch The Honeymooners together.
Stephen K Benjamin (33:36):
The mother, who complimented him, and made him a much better man, they're still together after 54 years. He still bossed me around too. But every child didn't have that.
Stephen K Benjamin (33:47):
Then you have to step up and say, "So what's the role of a civilized society? What's the role of a loving and compassionate community?". To stand in the gap, and put as best as we can, the structures in place, to make sure this kid gets the same shot he has. These children nowadays, I will tell you, are much more talented. Much more intelligent, digital native, than Steve Benjamin ever was. So it's my job to give them a shot, and that's what I'm going to do.
John Darsie (34:11):
Next question, before I let Anthony get back in here. I'm having too much fun, engaging with you guys on this. But you guys have both been very focused on job creation, and economic empowerment, as tools to help lift your constituents out of poverty, and create more equal outcomes. Mayor Benjamin, in your first term alone, you cut the unemployment rate in half, in your metropolitan area.
John Darsie (34:34):
What are examples of programs, either that we're doing today that you think we should ramp up, and increasingly focus on? One example being opportunity zones, which I know you guys have both been involved with. But what are other types of programs, and as an example for Mayor Tubbs, you've been involved at the municipal level in one of the first pilot programs for a version of universal basic income. In Stockton it's called SEED.
John Darsie (34:57):
I'll let Mayor Tubbs, you start with this, what are specific economic programs that we need to focus on, and need to ramp up, in order to create a domestic Marshall plan, to help create more equal outcomes?
Michael D Tubbs (35:10):
Great question. Number one, I think in terms of opportunity zones, part of the issue is, in California, is not yet tax conforming. With state and federal taxes. It's been hard to marshal interest. I think also, just having a version 2.0, that's actually more tailored to real underserved communities, I think would be a big benefit. In terms of using capital and free enterprise as a way to lift boats.
Michael D Tubbs (35:35):
In terms of the basic income demonstrations, one of the things I've been most surprised about is how money is a function of time. What we've seen is, with dollars, we just allows people to have more agency over their time. There's folks like, a gentleman named [Tomas 00:35:53], who talks about how the first $500 a month is enough for him to interview for a job.
Michael D Tubbs (35:59):
I asked him, "What does that mean?". He said, "Well, I work retail. Because I work retail, I'm not able to have a set schedule. I don't have paid time off. I have two kids, so I can't take a risk and bet on myself, and be entrepreneurial. Because doing so may mean the rent's not paid for this month. I don't have a rich dad. I don't have a real safety net to fall ... I am safety net".
Michael D Tubbs (36:21):
He said the $500 is enough for him to take two days of work to interview, and he ended up getting a better job, with more pay, benefits, unionized, etc. For me, that story's telling. Because when i think about a basic income, or an income floor, I think about our society being an angel investor in all of us. Saying, "Hey, you can't control who your parents are. We can't control the circumstances of your birth. But what we can do, is make sure you have a shot".
Michael D Tubbs (36:50):
That you have some sort of under-pinning. You have some sort of foundation, that then you could put your feet down, and buy boots and buy shoe strings, to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. I definitely think part of this conversation has to have some sort of an income floor for everyone. Particularly when we consider the unequal places where people start.
Michael D Tubbs (37:12):
Another program, or programs I'd like to see ramped up, are really just pausing discussions. We know that minimum wage has not kept up with the cost of living. We know that, in 99 percent of counties in this country, you can not afford housing with the current minimum wage. Which means we have to lift the floor. We have to increase wages. So that when people are actually working, who are actually working, and able to provide and pay, it makes no sense for people working two ore three jobs, and still not be able to pay for basic necessities.
Michael D Tubbs (37:43):
Then I think that the third thing, particularly around conversations about job guarantees. Which I think make a lot of sense. But also, we have to have, if you look at what Mayor Bloomberg is proposing, his campaign with the Green initiative". Just real targeted, specific, loan programs. Capacity programs for entrepreneurs.
Michael D Tubbs (38:04):
Going to Stanford, being in Silicon Valley, is a caricature of what entrepreneur is. But the most entrepreneurial people I've ever met are the people in my neighborhood in Stockton. Who are selling tamales, or selling things that are now legal, that once were illegal. But who have shown a business acumen in mind, who just don't have access to capital, don't have access to the teaching. But have that same grit, resilience, creativity, ingenuity, that my classmates at Stanford had.
Michael D Tubbs (38:35):
I do think target investments, for investing in, supporting entrepreneurs, in communities that have been particularly impacted by police violence, and other forms of violence, like poverty, would also make a big difference.
John Darsie (38:47):
Mayor Benjamin, do you have anything to add to that?
Stephen K Benjamin (38:50):
Just very quickly, I know we're running short on time. We try to lead from the front, and lead from example. Our city's a unique place. State government, largest army training base in the world. Universities and colleges. A significant amount of our property's done in tax rolls. We're always working with a certain limited amount of resources.
Stephen K Benjamin (39:08):
It was important to me, as commercial interests carry a significant share of the tax burden, to run just a tight ship. We've finished eight of the last 10 years with a budget surplus. Never raised taxes. We've actually cut taxes by $12 mils. We've been creating an environment where private sector capital feels welcome. It hits the ground, and you treat it well. We've been able to welcome billions of dollars of capital investment into our city.
Stephen K Benjamin (39:32):
We invest in our city. $750 million in water, sewage, and storm water investments. The work that Michael was talking about, collective leadership on opportunity zones. We try to make sure that when we make those investments, that we ask of our partners, and we dig deep into the community. To make sure these jobs are available to folks who live, and make the community special.
Stephen K Benjamin (39:58):
There are a number of great efforts out there, around UBI, that Michael's been leading on. Been doing some work with the Aspen Institute around income volatility, and ways in which we can just help people stabilize. We developed a wonderful program a few years ago called Work It Up. In which you go to one side of town, and folks, employers say they can't find employees. You go to the other side of town, people can't find jobs.
Stephen K Benjamin (40:19):
It's your job to be an ambassador, and try and connect those dots. Making sure people have the skillset, but employers understand they're not going to get perfect individuals. Who, in my faith traditionally, only one perfect person's ever walked the face of the Earth, and he's not here right now. He's here, but he's not here.
Stephen K Benjamin (40:37):
Working to connect those dots, to again have everyone participate in the largess of America. I'm also a huge proponent of public private partnerships. I think smart P3s, particularly in the economic environment in which we're operating right now. Where state and local government's going to see one tree on a short pole over the next year.
Stephen K Benjamin (40:57):
Giving a thoughtful, they have to be public private. Sometimes public private philanthropic partnerships, are giving cities and states and local governments, local subdivisions, the opportunity to unlock the capital they have locked up in some of these assets, is a huge opportunity. That six months ago, when folks weren't thinking that UBI, other than Michael and his crew, was real. But now, post CARES Act, people think, "Maybe there's something really serious here. We should be thinking about ...".
Stephen K Benjamin (41:25):
People thought that universal healthcare, I'm with Mike, we were on the same team, for the presidential election. I'm not a Bernie guy at all. But the discussions around universal healthcare being unaffordable, unsustainable, you put a $1 trillion price tag on it. Well I'll tell you, guys. We're about $3 trillion to $4 trillion in hoc right now. As we go.
Stephen K Benjamin (41:49):
A budget, and the way in which we lead, is a reflection of the values and the things that we value. We're going to have to really start thinking very creatively. Or opportunity zones. Around UBI. Around ways in which we can all win. If we reimagine everything, we can do much better than we have been over the last several years.
John Darsie (42:09):
I know I said I was going to kick it back to Anthony. But I have one more question before we wrap up. I'll start it with Mayor Tubbs. Because it's a generational question, but it's also just a societal question. It's sort of going back to what we talked about at the beginning. I want to leave everybody on an optimistic tone.
John Darsie (42:24):
That it feels a little bit different now, the social activism that we've seen, and the commitment to change from various parties. I mean, you see something like NASCAR finally coming out and leading from the front on racial issues. I'm from North Carolina. Mayor Benjamin, you're in South Carolina. These issues are things we're familiar with.
John Darsie (42:45):
But Mayor Tubbs, I'll start with you. From a generational perspective, do you think that millennials, as a result of racial issues, and just the pandemic might have caused some of this as well. Do you think millennials are going to be more engaged in the social and political landscape going forward, as a result of some of the things we've seen recently? What impact do you think that's going to have on the country?
John Darsie (43:07):
Then Mayor Benjamin, I want you to follow up. Just to talk about whether you think this movement that we're feeling right now, you have people like LeBron James, other big athletes and celebrities. Those groups have always made a push to help with voter rights, and things like that. But it seems like there's a more cohesive and energized effort to address those things. We'll start with Mayor Tubbs.
Michael D Tubbs (43:29):
I sure hope so. The reason why I got involved with government is because I realized that, I'm going to be around to live with a lot of consequences today, the decisions made today, in my older years. I just want to be part of that. I'll be here to deal with the repercussions and the actions, so I hope millennials, and Zoomers, everyone realizes that, "No, we can't wait". That it's on us. We have to work with those who are older, but we have to be part of the decision making table.
Michael D Tubbs (44:00):
Because I just don't want to have to be fighting the same fights, in the same way, talking about these same issues 20, 30 years from now. I think a lot of people feel the same way. I think particularly, millennials, most of us were born, we were 10, 11 years old when 9/11 happened. We were entering into college, or entering into the labor market when the first Great Recession happened in '08.
Michael D Tubbs (44:28):
For many of us, the only two presidents we've known, that we've voted for, are Barack Obama and Donald Trump. We grew up in a time, where Oscar Grant, Sandra Bland, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, every month a new hashtag. We grew up seeing Colin Kaepernick being blacklisted from the NFL for protesting. I think that those formative experiences have hopefully had the impact, of getting people involved in the political process, and the political system. Exerting rights to vote, and rights to run for office. To get us to where we need to be as a society.
Stephen K Benjamin (45:04):
John, I'm encouraged by millennial leadership, and the Zoomers as well. As you might be able to deduce from our conversation and banter, Michael and I talk, text, or email almost every day. Maybe every other day. He's representative of a group of friends and leaders, both men and women, particularly, obviously we engage with mayors. But amazing leaders. Who come from Birmingham, Jackson, I mean gosh, in Atlanta. Charlotte, and Shreveport. Just some really talented young leaders, who are seeing the world very differently. But also have the wisdom of being students of history.
Stephen K Benjamin (45:48):
We're benefiting from that in a very significant way. I am also excited, we engage with a number of different individuals, including some of the athletes that you mentioned, like LeBron James and others. I think what's coolest about that is, to recognize that, you guys, when you sit down with a group of athletes, particularly some African American athletes, you'll find independents. You'll find Democrats, you'll find Republicans.
Stephen K Benjamin (46:14):
To be able to respect the heterogeneity of the group is really cool. You'll find some who believe strongly in the capital markets, and some who may be at the other end of the spectrum. But they all seem really, at this moment, to be focused on human dignity. To be focused on inclusion. To be focused on economic prosperity, for communities that have been disenfranchised.
Stephen K Benjamin (46:38):
To really be focused on making sure that people have the right to the franchise, and are able to participate in American elections, as one of their constitutional and God given rights. That's an exciting time. I do believe that, with the leadership of folks in Michael's generation, I think America is going to be in a better place. I really do.
John Darsie (46:58):
Well thank-you again, both of you, so much for joining us. Anthony, do you have any final thoughts?
Anthony Scaramucci (47:04):
Well, I want the duck back now. Guys, this guy has a fake duck. He's been sitting behind him for the last seven SALT Talks. But when the duck was there, he wasn't talking. Now the duck's not there, and all he's doing is talking, so I sort of want the duck back. But -
John Darsie (47:21):
I had to make sure we asked all the right followup questions. It's too interesting and important a conversation.
Anthony Scaramucci (47:24):
Oh, I appreciate it. He thinks he has standing, because he's from the south. But listen, guys. You're doing an enormous service to our country. Your public service is exemplary. On behalf of everybody that listens to these SALT Talks, and all of our delegates, I just want to personally thank you. You're true patriots, and I know our country's headed for a better place because of men and women like you guys.
