Investing in Cannabis: Analyzing the Industry’s Future | #SALTNY

Investing in Cannabis: Analyzing the Industry’s Future with Jennifer Drake, Chief Operating Officer, AYR Wellness. David Feuerstein, Co-Founder & Partner, Feuerstein Kulick. Rob Sechrist, President, Pelorus. Emily Paxhia, Co-Founder & Managing Partner, Poseidon.

Moderated by Matt Karnes, Founder, GreenWave Advisors.

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SPEAKERS

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Jennifer Drake

Chief Operating Officer

AYR Wellness

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Emily Paxhia

Co-Founder & Managing Partner

Poseidon

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David Feuerstein

Co-Founder & Partner

Feuerstein Kulick

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Rob Sechrist

President

Pelorus Equity Group

 

MODERATOR

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Matt Karnes

Founder

GreenWave Advisors

 

TIMESTAMPS

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Matt Karnes: (00:07)
Well, hello, everybody. Thanks for joining us this afternoon. These are panelists, I'm Matt Karnes, Jen Drake, David Feuerstein, Rob Sechrist, and Emily Paxhia. I thought for those of you who are not familiar with the cannabis industry, just to give you a quick backdrop, for all intent and purposes, the industry pretty much was established in 2014 when Colorado introduced its first recreational use market. Back then, that was about eight years ago, sales were about three point eight billion dollars, fast forward to today, now we have 18 rec states, adult use, and 36 medical.

Matt Karnes: (00:49)
The industry has progressed quite a bit over the past eight years. There's been ebbs and flows. Last year, 2020., We estimate the retail sales were about 19 billion, this year, 23 billion, 28 billion by 2022., And really the thing that I focus on is where we're going to be at the end, at maturity. And I think we're looking at an 80 to a $100 billion market. If you compare that to tobacco, which is 120 billion, beer, 110, spirits and wine, about 150 billion combined.

Matt Karnes: (01:25)
So there's a tremendous opportunity, but the industry remains illegal under federal law, which is a problem, and a good thing, in a way. So what I thought I'd do is kick it off to you, David, our lawyer, our expert legal person here, and why don't you walk us through where we are at a federal level, the policy changes that have been introduced?

David Feuerstein: (01:49)
Sure. Well, thanks, Matt. As I think, if I'm sitting in your seat and I put myself in your seat, the first thing I'd want to know, when investing is, whether I'm investing in something that's actually legal. As Matt referenced, cannabis is still illegal at the federal level, but for those who are following cannabis in any respects, I'm sure you're aware that Senator Schumer and Booker recently released legislation with respect to how you would federally legalize cannabis. Meaning that you would not only take it off the scheduling list, you would allow for banking, listing, you would allow for interstate commerce.

David Feuerstein: (02:29)
There's also many social reforms in that social equity, decriminalization and sort of criminal reform, so that is now on the table in Washington, DC. Many industry participants have commented on it and provided insight as to what they think about that legislation. And what I would expect, in the future, is some sort of incremental change. I think it's hard to envision a widespread federal legalization with a snap of a fingers, but I do think that within time, you'll see sort of small steps towards federally legalized industry.

Matt Karnes: (03:11)
Great. And Jen, in light of the challenges, the legal challenges, how is AYR able to establish such a compelling national brand in light of the federal illegality?

Jennifer Drake: (03:24)
Sure. Well, for people in the audience, maybe, who aren't as familiar with cannabis, AYR is a publicly traded equity. So we started our life as a SPAC, raised about a $100 million in 2017, and are now a two and a half billion dollar publicly traded company. So we give the industry viewpoint on this panel. And just a little bit by way of background. I used to be in your shoes, I think went to my first SALT in maybe 2009, in the private credit world. And it's such a compelling opportunity in cannabis that I actually, several years ago voted with my feet and moved into doing the first cannabis SPAC.

Jennifer Drake: (04:07)
But if I'm in your shoes, if I think about to back to when I was looking at an alternative investment, what's super compelling about cannabis is that it is incredibly fragmented market. And so for the few businesses, like ours, that are at the top of the food chain, in terms of multi-state operators who are able to have a footprint across many of those legal states that David mentioned. You can both have a very compelling cashflow opportunity today in your operating business, because you are vertically integrated, you grow it, you manufacture it, you produce it, you sell it at wholesale, you sell it through retail stores, which in many cases are in a limited license environment. So for instance, in Nevada, our most productive stores do $35 million per year in revenue, which is over $10,000 per square foot. So it's a really compelling industry structure, for today.

Jennifer Drake: (05:06)
And for tomorrow, as Matt mentioned, the future is branding. The future is when cannabis becomes a proper consumer product at a $100 billion plus or minus, in terms of annualized revenue, putting it up there with all of the other major consumer products, kind of in the sector. And the key to being that great consumer products company when the industry matures, is first and foremost, having a great product.

Jennifer Drake: (05:39)
And what does that mean for cannabis? Well, I think people don't realize how hard it is to grow great cannabis. And I certainly didn't know this three years ago, you certainly wouldn't want me growing your weed. What you want is incredibly experienced cultivators, who've been in the industry for a long time growing a great product. Because half of what gets sold is flower, is the flower that either goes in your pre-roll or gets ground up and goes in your joint. I never thought I would be talking about this. But half of our product is flower, and so it is all about the plant. It is all about growing a great product, and that is why, for us, the way to build a great brand is to do all the normal things a consumer product company would do, excellent customer experience, excellent approach to branding.

Jennifer Drake: (06:35)
But first and foremost, it all starts with the quality of what goes in the box. It all starts with the quality of the plant, and any operator, I'm the operator kind of on the panel today, but any operator will tell you the same thing, that is the key. And that is why for us, the key is to be the largest scale producer of high quality flower in the US.

David Feuerstein: (06:59)
One other thing, just to Jen's point, was when we started five or six years ago in the business, you used to have people say, "We had the greatest cultivator," and it's been doing it for 20 years, which sort of made you scratch your head for a minute, because 20 years ago, there was no legal industry at all. But now as you see the industry evolving, you have true horticulturists, PhDs, real scientists who are growing cannabis in real controlled environments with greatest technology. So just in our experience, just being in the space, it's completely evolved.

Matt Karnes: (07:32)
It's definitely not like growing tomatoes, that is for sure.

David Feuerstein: (07:35)
No.

Jennifer Drake: (07:36)
No.

Rob Sechrist: (07:36)
Not quite [inaudible 00:07:38].

Matt Karnes: (07:38)
So Rob, from your perspective, you run a fund, it's a REIT fund, Pelorus, from your perspective, what do you think needs to happen before federal legalization actually occurs? What is the industry missing, aside from it actually being legal?

Rob Sechrist: (07:57)
And just to give you a little color on us, we're the largest privately held, private mortgage REIT, that's lending specifically to the owners of cannabis properties, with cannabis use tenants, I should say. And we've put out nearly a quarter of a billion dollars in this sector. For us, the most consequential legislation that's has already happened in 2014, which is the Rohrabacher-Blumenauer amendment at the time, which defunded the Department of Justice from many prosecution, but cannabis-related business. So that was the clear path for us to lend to the owners of commercial real estate and allow for cannabis use tenants.

Rob Sechrist: (08:28)
It's very important that that's there, and that's the bedrock that I think that most of the people are here. In regards to what I think needs to happen, legislatively, or where things are going to go, I am less optimistic as my peers, that legislation reform is going to de-conflict state policy from federal policy in the near term. I just don't see the progressive states, California and New York, and liberal states giving an advantage to the Republican states that are coming in late to the game to completely legalize it. And on top of that, there's a patchwork of different laws and tax structures that are already in place, so I just never see the interstate commerce clause coming into play. I could be wrong. I think the bill is too broad. I think that if they just focus on removing 280E from the IRS code, it's a simple one-shot kill.

Rob Sechrist: (09:18)
And if allow credit cards to be run on the federal system, we've killed two major issues out there with very targeted measures. But that's not how Congress works, we know many of these representative Dana Rohrabacher is our friend, and our local Congressman, and we were implementing funding him at the time. I just don't see a broad bill passing with the 60 votes that are necessary to get past the filibuster. And unless they include it in the infrastructure bill, I just think the opportunity has passed. And I think the Democrats will lose the house in this midterm.

Jennifer Drake: (09:48)
That said, I don't think you have to have federal legalization in order for the investing opportunity to be compelling. And I know Emily does a lot of investing in the space. So, I mean, why don't you talk a little bit about that?

Emily Paxhia: (10:00)
Well, I mean, hi everyone, I'm the founder of Poseidon. Poseidon has three funds dedicated to investing in the cannabis industry. We opened our first fund, right when Colorado opened our doors to their legal adult use market in January of 2014, and we've invested across the entire capital spectrum, and really in the United States, Canada, Latin America, and Western Europe. So we've really explored and engaged in across the entire supply chain and have understood the levers you can pull to really drive returns in this really early emerging markets. But Jen's point is spot on, and I totally agree.

Emily Paxhia: (10:35)
For us, actually, the ability to deploy capital before federal legalization, this is the time to be putting money into this industry, because by the time the lawmakers move to get something legalized on the federal level, I think the alpha will be out of this space. And you'll just be kind of investing where it's very easily accessible. Our whole thing is to kind of exploit the delta between perceived and actual risk, when it comes to investing in this market. And the way we do that is by being boots on the ground, we spend all our time on the road in these facilities, understanding the people involved, understanding the regulations involved, because the regulations are also kind of a gas pedal and a brake pedal.

Emily Paxhia: (11:14)
So we have things where we want to change, 280E, which is our egregious federal tax code around cannabis, where you cannot write off ordinary business expenses. So you have these tremendous effective tax rates, and Jen can speak to that in her business. What we also have, in the US, is a lack of access to the capital markets. We are currently listed on the OTC. We trade in Canada, but what that does is it creates a lot of challenges around what actually happens around these public names. And for us, we've seen a couple of cycles. I don't know if anyone here is familiar with the Gartner hype cycle around tech, but we've been observing a very similar pattern in cannabis. The one big difference is that institutional capital has largely been sidestepping this industry.

Emily Paxhia: (11:59)
So it's time for smaller firms like ours to be able to get into the mix, invest along the way, and then when we see that institutional capital opening up, when we see the capital markets opening up, and people can participate at a broader base into this industry, that's when we're really going to see some serious liftoff. And you can see how that's been mirrored in Canada, where they do have a federal legal program, and they've been able to access the capital markets.

Emily Paxhia: (12:27)
An interesting conundrum is that we have tremendous operators in the United States. The fundamentals of these businesses are very strong. You can't see a consumer sector that's growing at the rate it's growing at over 30% year over year with EBITDA margins like we're seeing in cannabis, it's really unparalleled, almost. And so it's just a very exciting time to be in it. But then you see the Canadian operators who don't have those same strong fundamentals, but they have access to our NASDAQ and to our New York Stock Exchange, and so they have a totally different experience in terms of how their public companies perform.

Emily Paxhia: (13:02)
So I don't know, one of the things we said when we launched Poseidon is, we would have to get very comfortable, often being uncomfortable, and so that's been part of our whole thing. And we just lean in on our work to really understand how to engage in this sector.

Matt Karnes: (13:18)
What I think is really compelling about the story in the US is, the ability and the proven track record of many of the MSOs, the ability to generate free cashflow and cashflow from operations in light of federal prohibition, because there are added costs of prohibition. There's the 60 to 70% effective tax rate. There's a higher cost of capital. There's added compliance costs. I mean, the list goes on. And so in my view, when federal legalization occurs, or when there's any meaningful change to state law, the cashflow profile will accelerate dramatically. And that's when you'd want to be in now, I would say.

Matt Karnes: (14:00)
But, Jen, just getting back to like the capital markets like, for AYR, you guys have made a series of acquisitions. I mean, that's sort of the play now in the sector, there's a lot of acquisitions and consolidation and so forth. And AYR has done some of their transactions, cash, stock, a combination thereof, valuations have come down as we talked about. And so how do you think about deploying the capital that you have? You're also doing a share buyback.

Jennifer Drake: (14:28)
Well, one of the things that's amazing about this business is even at... we've talked a little bit about the barriers and the extra costs about running this business and the extra taxes, et cetera, but even with all of those headwinds, you're still able to have an incredibly robust margin structure, an incredibly robust cashflow generation. Which means, you have really great kind of credit metrics, and the ability to, when you deploy capital, you can do it extremely, extremely profitably. For instance, and this is going to sound crazy to the people in this room, when we engage in capital projects, which can have multiple returns, in terms of return on invested capital, we get our capital back within like 18 months. So people are always very worried, is it worthwhile putting $30 million into this cultivation facility in Massachusetts? What is going to happen with federal legalization?

Jennifer Drake: (15:23)
Well, every dollar I get after a year and a half is gravy, because I paid back my $30 million investment. There's no other industry where your return on capital is that fast. And it's because of the margin structure of this business is so robust, and because the leverage you can get from capital projects is so material. So when we invest in capital projects or an M & A, I mean, our business currently trades at about, and this sounds like a crazy number, like five, six times 2022 expected EBITDA. For a business growing a 100%, year over year, in terms of revenue, with a 30% EBITDA structure, that's crazy, but it's because of these structural hurdles to investment. And when we buy other people, we're buying at a creative EBITDA multiple, so M & A is sub six times, capital, we invest in capital projects, returns within one and a half years.

Jennifer Drake: (16:22)
It's an incredible, incredible proposition to grow your company right now, which is why we're so acquisitive and why we want to expand our business as much as possible. Exactly, as Emily said, before it's federally legal, because when it is federally legal, there will be a rush of capital in, both from the people who are on the sidelines now, whether it's the Canadian, they're called licensed producers, LPs, the Tilray and Cronos and Aurora and Canopys of the world, or even the big tobacco and alcohol companies who have been desperate to get into the cannabis business for donkey's years, but still won't do it, until there's more clarity on federal legalization. When those people come into the business cost of capital is going to go down, return on capital is going to go down, so we want to get as much as possible at these cheap levels before federal legalization

Matt Karnes: (17:23)
And David, speaking of, on the topic of M & A, one of the things that I really scratched my head on during the Trump administration was attorney general Barr. There was a lot of M & A activity going on, and the Department of Justice was conducting antitrust reviews, so to me that didn't make a lot of sense to have a federal investigation or deploy those resources into an activity that's fairly illegal. A lot of money was spent. A lot of time was spent, unfortunately for you guys were on the sidelines when they did it, and had to deal with all that.

David Feuerstein: (17:57)
A lot of delay.

Jennifer Drake: (17:57)
Oh, no deals broke, and we bought them. That's we're happy.

Matt Karnes: (17:59)
Yeah, exactly. Well, that's part of being a good operator is knowing, when to deal.

David Feuerstein: (18:03)
There's a lot of, I guess, asymmetries, so a federal government that's using federal funds to conduct investigations into antitrust issues in state run businesses doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. And major transactions were sort of kept on the sideline for many, many months waiting for the antitrust review to sort of pass by. It is sort of inexplicable, but I think that's one of the smaller inexplicably things of the past administration. So in any event, I don't disagree that federal legalization is some time off, but as I said, there's nothing in this country that I'm aware of right now that has more sort of consensus-

Jennifer Drake: (18:54)
No.

David Feuerstein: (18:55)
... than legalization of cannabis, believe it or not. I believe at the last election was over 60% of eligible voters agreed that cannabis should be legalized for adult use. I assure you that any of our politicians would fall over themselves for that kind of approval. So there are things that don't make sense and are inexplicably in our government, but certainly you would expect that given the population sentiment, there will be movement, eventually, towards federal legalism.

Matt Karnes: (19:26)
And I think there's going to be a smoother ride to the finish. I mean, there was a lot of bumps. It was like being in a bumpy, old jalopy or something, under the old administration. And now it's sort of just smooth. So we don't know when the timing is, but in the meantime, there are restrictions around access to capital, that's a challenge. And there's been a variety of different solutions to that, one of which are the REITs, which has been very important in the sector over the last few years. So Rob, can you talk about what the advantages are to the operator and sort of what the advantages are to the investor?

Rob Sechrist: (20:07)
Sure. So we're a mortgage REIT, which is different than a traditional REIT, we don't own properties. We just get the tax advantage of being a REIT, which we've passed along to our investors, which is a 20% tax savings on the ordinary income that we generate. In addition to that, the other super significant advantages is that the state tax is only paid in the state that you're domiciled. So our largest portion of our investor base is in no tax states, such as Texas and Florida and other various states like that.

Rob Sechrist: (20:36)
But in regards to the capital markets and things out there, I will share kind of off the record that the institutional investors are ready and willing, and we'll be making an announcement next week that the largest investment banks and community banks, insurance companies, pension funds are active and ready to come in. So there is a path through, we have a different structure, since we're non plant touching, as opposed to some of my peers here. So we're specifically only lend to the owners of the property and allow for cannabis use, so we have a little bit of delineation there.

Rob Sechrist: (21:05)
But in that quest for investors, since 2016, almost five and a half years, we've been dedicated to this space. We've had to go through every single approach that there is. And there was no short path, easy path. There was no broker dealer. It was myself and my team raising every single one of those dollars ourselves. We started with retail investors, and now we're finally to the institutional investors.

Matt Karnes: (21:27)
Great. So interstate commerce, we talked briefly about that. That's a very important issue now, a lot of people are talking about it. Because, for those that aren't aware, each state has to operate in a closed economy within cannabis, because it's a state by state, it's illegal federally. So the question becomes, are you able to... it's obviously a lot more efficient if you're cultivating in just one state or however many states, rather than in every single state, but the ability to cross state lines, that's weighing a lot on people's minds. What is your take on that, Jen, on how important it is in the near term or medium term as you think about investing?

Jennifer Drake: (22:10)
So I think it's one of the many uncertainties in the space is when we finally get mainstreaming, when we finally get legalization, what is that going to look like? Is it going to look like full federal legalization? You can cross state lines, and PS, if you cross state lines, you can pretty much cross international lines. So that's another thing that is a wrinkle that, even if people decide, oh, I have no problem having all the cannabis in the US grown in California and then shipped around the country, does that mean they want cannabis coming up from Mexico and from Columbia and in from Canada? That's probably not exactly what lawmakers want. So there's a lot of uncertainty around that.

Jennifer Drake: (22:56)
And that's why I think a lot of people have a view that, at least in the interim, something called the STATES Act is the most likely more mainstreaming approach to cannabis. And that basically says, federal government's going to take their hands off, like the Rohrabacher amendment, but like forever, and the states can do whatever they want. But in that environment, it is unlikely that THC will be able to cross state lines. So we'll be in the similar situation that we are today. But who knows, it's a lot of uncertainty. There is a lot of talk about, well, maybe states can make interstate, pacts, and Indiana and Ohio can make a decision to trade amongst themselves. It's a little bit of an uncharted territory, if we were to do something like that, but it is less of a kind of big bang than just to allow interstate commerce.

Rob Sechrist: (23:50)
And if I could just add to that, Cory Gardner is a friend of ours. He was a co-sponsor with Elizabeth Warren of the STATES Act. And at the time that he was a Senator, he had the 60 votes necessary to get it through, so those votes are there. Mitch McConnell wouldn't bring it to the floor. They were afraid because Elizabeth Warren was a presidential candidate that the other presidential candidates would try to move the bill a little bit farther and farther saying, "STATES Act is not enough. We need to decriminalize." The next one would say, "Well, there needs to be reparations." And so they were afraid they'd lose the vote. So what that tells us is that there are enough Republicans. I believe there are 17 had been identified that are willing to do it, but neither side is willing to get the other side the win.

Rob Sechrist: (24:29)
And the political machinations that are happening behind the scenes have nothing to do with what the laws are. And so it's just such a broken system. And unless they get it through budget reconciliation, I just don't see it happening in the very near term. And I think the political capital right now is in decriminalization, not legalization. And so that's where I think that they'll focus and that could be national.

Emily Paxhia: (24:51)
I also think that implementation of regulation changes around cannabis takes years. So even if we got federal legalization-

Rob Sechrist: (24:58)
True.

Emily Paxhia: (24:58)
... even if they were to open up interstate commerce, the implementation of a framework around that, I mean, if it takes two years for California to turn on, I mean, we're in New York, we're watching what is going on here and the timelines there, on a federal level, I can't even imagine. And just even thinking through all of the ways that this starts and stops, like if you look at after alcohol prohibition, we still have blue laws in states, we still have states that are not as open to importing from California, for example, or you have to pay a fee or a tariff to do so. So there are different challenges around this that I think we...

Emily Paxhia: (25:33)
So even if it did happen, where they said, "Yes, we have federal legalization and there can be interstate commerce." I think there are many barriers to the full implementation of that. So I think we have years until we see this laying out. I mean, even the states that are very opposed to having legal cannabis, I could see them saying you cannot pass through our state with legal cannabis to get from the West to the East Coast.

Emily Paxhia: (25:56)
And I think Jen's point, too, about once you think about the global infrastructure of what a global cannabis market looks like, then you start to see Columbia has massive cultivation going on in greenhouses down there, and by the way, with EU GMP certification. And so if you can produce cannabis in Columbia at that level, at that certification, and be importing that into Europe for a medical distribution chain, I mean, things start to get very interesting, when you think about the commoditization of the raw material, which is really a plant. That's many years away, but it's just, once you start to go down that path, you really have to go the whole way down that path.

Matt Karnes: (26:38)
One thing, some companies now are establishing an exchange, developing, or conceptually anyway, futures contracts around cannabis. But if you have a futures contract, if you trade on that in the same mechanism than any other futures, you have to be able to take delivery of the product. So with interstate commerce not being permissible, I don't know how that's going to work out, but that's another discussion. But anyway, David, what's your take on what's going on with interstate commerce?

David Feuerstein: (27:08)
Well, I mean, I think we've talked about it, but for this room, I think the takeaway should be that the opportunity exists now. Because of regulatory hurdles, because of the fragmentation, because of limitation of state's licenses, there's opportunities abound in terms of investing.

David Feuerstein: (27:28)
I think Jen touched on Massachusetts. Massachusetts is super attractive state, in particular, because there are limitations on canopy. No matter how wealthy you are, no matter how big you are, you can only grow so much cannabis in the state of Massachusetts, which means that there's an absolute supply and demand, in favor of demand right now. So prices are very high, which is why Jen's company's able to get return on her investment in 18 months.

Jennifer Drake: (27:53)
Yeah. I mean, and it's the same across, basically, everywhere east of the Mississippi, you had the same limitation on canopy, so it's New York, well, it will be New York, we know, it's New Jersey, it's Massachusetts, it's Pennsylvania, Illinois has a higher cap, but all of the Eastern US is implementing a similar license structure, where there are these caps. And that's why, when we were talking earlier about that incredibly robust margin structure, there are these regulatory limitations that allow for that robust margin structure, and keep it really, really pervasive for a long period of time.

Jennifer Drake: (28:37)
I mean, people have been asking me for over three years when Massachusetts going to be less good on a wholesale basis. I'm like a long time from now, and it's five years ahead of Pennsylvania and New Jersey. So it's a persistent opportunity that's structural, and if you can get in it, it's the hardest business I've ever seen. It's an incredibly challenging business to really operate in, but if you can operate well, you have an incredible structural advantage. And I personally would like federal legalization to be as far as away as possible, because I want the biggest portfolio possible, the biggest wholesale business, the best brands, and the biggest retail footprint ahead of that.

David Feuerstein: (29:19)
And I just think one of the countervailing points that you haven't heard yet about federal legalization is that you have state constituents who are going to be super opposed to interstate commerce, save for maybe the state of California and the state of Arizona. Every state on the East Coast, every governor, every delegate, every senator is going to say, "We don't want interstate, because we have tons of tax revenue that's coming in from our state operators. We want to keep cultivation facilities and dispensaries-

Jennifer Drake: (29:50)
Jobs.

David Feuerstein: (29:51)
... and jobs and tax money coming in. What are we going to do?" The state of Colorado, it was a startling statistic about the amount of tax revenue they've generated and how that goes to schools. So imagine if all of a sudden that revenue base is taken away, because jobs are lost or tax dollars are not there anymore. So I think once they even get, sort of again, to Emily's point, once they get to the point of actually legalizing it, from a legislative point, the regulation process and enacting regulations are going to abound and it's going to be very difficult to get consensus quickly. So I think you're going to find every governor coming to Washington DC to lobby against interstate commerce.

Jennifer Drake: (30:28)
But again, good for the incumbents.

Matt Karnes: (30:30)
Yeah. Well, it's clear the smokes out of the bomb at this point, in terms of federal legalization, it's going to happen. But there are still a lot of challenges around trading and capital markets and stuff, so, Emily, your Poseidon, you have some publics in your portfolio, what are the challenges that you are faced with in terms of, if you want to exit or trade?

Emily Paxhia: (30:58)
Well, yeah, because the markets are... there's low liquidity in these names and they're very thinly traded. And so when you're affirmed, that's really kind of one of the institutions trading in it, you can definitely impact the market. And, for example, we saw, was it Credit Suisse that said, "No more trading." Yeah. And so we know there were a number of actual big funds that were in the space, they weren't big for their funds, but for the space, it was hundreds of millions of dollars. And so there was some force selling through April. And you could just see across the entire sector, what that did to the sector in terms of the volume and also just the pricing, so that was really difficult.

Emily Paxhia: (31:41)
There's also just the challenges around, where you can hold the stock, who you have as your brokerage firms that are actually working in this space, and then you have the Canadian and US piece to it. So even if you go public and you have public stock, the perception of liquidity that you're now free and you're trading is just not there. There's a lot of steps you have to take to navigate through it. And we're generally long the names that we're in. We do some shorting in our first fund, but it's very specific and very short shorting, but we're generally long the sector. We're long the names that we select for the portfolio. So we're okay with the buy and hold, and we're generally really just trying to be mindful of our entry points and timing the market right.

Emily Paxhia: (32:25)
But for us, it's not been as much about getting in and getting out. It's just continuing to build positions, especially as we've watched this market draw down, since I think it was like February 20th was when we talked ticked at the last time. But it's just not the same as being on the listed exchanges, and until we have some... From what we understand, it's not necessary to get the banking reform in place, it's just that the exchanges would like to see that before they potentially endeavor into the space for the plant touching companies.

Rob Sechrist: (32:57)
And if I could add to that, it's not just the custodian of the shares, it's the custodian of the securities we help.

Emily Paxhia: (33:03)
That's right.

Rob Sechrist: (33:04)
So we've had those challenges as well with some of the things we're working on. But something that most people don't know is that there's 684 banks that are currently listed on FinCEN's website that are actively accepting cannabis depositors, tier one banking. And so there's an enormous amount of banking already out there, state banks and credit unions. We're in an FDIC insured bank, and we're tracking all those banks and private lenders. And of those banks, there's dozens and dozens of them that are already lending direct. So it's much more robust than people realize and think. The challenges that we're talking about are challenges that are kind of ancillary challenges, but they have to be thought all the way through.

Rob Sechrist: (33:42)
And it's one of the challenges of this industry, you're like, "Okay, I've got my capital source, I've got my deal source, I've got my due diligence source," and you go to close, you realize the custody escrow company can't hold anything to do with cannabis related whatsoever, and the title company won't deal with it, and the [inaudible 00:33:58] insurance won't deal with it, and all the way down the line, the property insurance. And you've got to disclose that, you've got to get it disclosed in writing, because if you ever go to make a claim, they're going to deny that claim.

Matt Karnes: (34:09)
Sure.

Rob Sechrist: (34:09)
And so getting an insurance company, a major insurance company, or somebody to put that in writing is a major challenge. So you have to know how to work those things and have those relationships. And so even once you get past the biggest challenges that you thought were in place, these little challenges, you don't have any leverage with these third parties. And so these really become the bigger obstacles that we're all having to face here at different value points in the product space.

David Feuerstein: (34:34)
There's also-

Matt Karnes: (34:34)
So... oh, go ahead.

David Feuerstein: (34:36)
... issues from the federal illegality is, how do you secure against your debt, if you're issuing debt? And what do you do? There's no bankruptcy protection. A number of companies have once tried to file for bankruptcy, they've been kicked out of bankruptcy court. So what are you doing if you're going to lend money, how are you going to be able to seize your collateral? How are you going to be able to ensure that there's no leakage of collateral? Those are things-

Jennifer Drake: (34:57)
Yeah. I would say, though, that you're well compensated for that. I mean-

David Feuerstein: (35:01)
No, of course.

Jennifer Drake: (35:02)
... cannabis spreads are 500 basis points over similar comparable credit companies-

David Feuerstein: (35:06)
I agree. I'm just saying from a legal [crosstalk 00:35:08]-

Jennifer Drake: (35:08)
... and like billions of dollars have been raised in the cannabis credit markets. So, I mean, definitely, yes, what you're saying is true, although UCC, but I will say that people find the potential returns sufficiently attractive that billions of dollars of cannabis credit has been raised.

Emily Paxhia: (35:24)
I agree.

Matt Karnes: (35:25)
So we're almost out of time, but one thing I want to touch on, because of the name of the panel is the future of cannabis.

Jennifer Drake: (35:30)
Sorry.

Matt Karnes: (35:32)
So when I rolled up my sleeves nearly eight years ago, and I thought about the industry, I thought there were going to be three lanes. There's the rec market, there's health and wellness, and then there's pharmaceutical. And the rec market, or the rec lane is widening now, as we have more states. Well, same with the health and wellness, as we have more CBD products and so forth. I think medical will be redefined and recalibrated, as big pharma comes in and there's more research that's done. And that's a whole nother panel and discussion about true medical marijuana. But what are your each of your thoughts on how the industry is going to look in say 10 years, 10 and 15 years? I'll start with you Jen.

Jennifer Drake: (36:18)
I think that you'll find that a lot of people who use cannabis for "recreational" purposes are actually using it for wellness purposes. There's a whole plant wellness movement across the country right now, and what you'll see is as "recreational" adult use sales become legal in more states, you will see people, essentially, almost using cannabis, more like a nutraceutical. There are some people who will use it for it's... we call it the intersection of wellness and wonder, you'll see some people who are using it for its wonder properties, but a huge portion of the people who are using it, like my mom uses it for arthritis relief, because she has really bad arthritis, so she uses topicals. She has a bad back, and instead of taking opioids, she will use cannabis instead.

Jennifer Drake: (37:13)
So she substitutes it for some of the more OTC type wellness products that she would otherwise use. I think you'll see that expand materially. I think you'll see people substituting alcohol for cannabis. I talked to someone last week, we just bought a cannabis sparkling seltzer, that is basically like a LaCroix, but cannabis infused, and literally, I don't know this person from Adam, I met her for the first time over the phone. She told me she drives across the border to get our product, LEVIA, a 100 cans at a time, and then drives-

Emily Paxhia: (37:49)
Wow.

Jennifer Drake: (37:49)
... back across to New York, a 100 cans at a time. Literally, I had no idea, she was just like, "Oh yeah, great buy. I have two Levia's as a night now, instead of two glasses of wine, and my husband does too." So you'll see substitution, you'll see an expansion of OTC and nutraceutical wellness. And then I think you will see true pharmaceutical grade cannabis, like GW pharma's [dialects 00:38:18]. You'll see more and more of that come, because you'll have more research. But want [crosstalk 00:38:24]-

David Feuerstein: (38:23)
I would just add that, I think I agree with all of Jen's points, most of them, at least. I think the one point that I would add is that you're going to find that there's going to be significant research in what they call them, the minor cannabinoids. And they're going to find uses for those minor cannabinoids in all sorts of things. The human system has a cannabinoid system already long before cannabis has been talked about as a legal drug. And I think that people are going to figure out ways to treat multiple diseases and symptoms with cannabis. And so I look for the medical space to really explode in 10 or 20 years.

Rob Sechrist: (39:04)
Well, I would agree with all the things that they're saying, but from a debt perspective, we've already analyzed this space as being a $50 billion market size for the real estate sector, and only two and a half billion has been put out. So we see that the rates and the terms will be more mature and stabilized and similar to other types of debt markets out there. And we've got to work through and make sure that we are dealing with that and addressing that. But we believe that this specialty use lending market is similar to cold storage data centers and labs, and it will always help perform other types of debt/credit funds for real estate out there.

Rob Sechrist: (39:40)
So we're excited about it. We think it's here to stay in. And like you said earlier, I think 48 billion projected by 2025, so it's a massive... But that's from the consumer side, we're talking about the asset side. So we're a little bit different lane, but we have a different approach, but we're all in the same general business as well.

Matt Karnes: (39:58)
Emily final word.

Emily Paxhia: (39:59)
Yeah. I think that I'm really interested in watching how gen Z is really the first cannabis native generation, where they're entering the workforce. Their share of wallet is being dedicated to cannabis as opposed to alcohol. And there was just something released about, for the first time ever, alcohol use is down in college students, cannabis use is up. So I think where we're going next is that this is being integrated into people's lives differently. It doesn't have to be siloed or kind of off to the side. It can be a part of everyday life. And I think what is coming from that is the shifting from the form factors from just smoking it in a bowl or a bong to being able to drink it or being able to eat it, and having these other more socially acceptable and socially normalized ways of consuming cannabis.

Emily Paxhia: (40:41)
So I think that that's just really interesting, because right now, it's the Pareto principle, where the 20% of the population, they're spending 80% into our market, and it's all the flower, high potency products. But I think once we get to the outskirts of that, where we're hitting into those other form factors, and we're hitting more with women, we're hitting more with seniors, we're hitting more with the gen Z, that's really driving this, I think we're going to see a real spreading out of this market and actual depth to the growth of it. Not just from turning on new markets, but we'll see real depth in our consumer bases. So I'm really excited about where we're going next.

Matt Karnes: (41:13)
Awesome. Well, thank you everybody. There's certainly a lot to talk about in this space. We really didn't hit on every topic, but thank you all for participating here.

David Feuerstein: (41:22)
Thanks.

Titans of Data: Leveraging Alternative Data to Enhance the Investment Process | #SALTNY

Titans of Data: Leveraging Alternative Data to Enhance the Investment Process with Carrie Lazorchak, Chief Revenue Officer, Similarweb. Rodney Pedersen, Chief Revenue Officer, Visible Alpha. Matt Ober, Managing Director & Chief Data Scientist, Third Point.

Moderated by Tim Harrington, President, BattleFin.

Powered by RedCircle

 

SPEAKERS

Headshot - Lazorchak, Carrie - Cropped.jpeg

Carrie Lazorchak

Chief Revenue Officer

Similarweb

Headshot - Pedersen, Rodney - Cropped.jpeg

Rodney Pedersen

Chief Revenue Officer

Visible Alpha

 
Headshot - Ober, Matt - Cropped.jpeg

Matt Ober

Managing Director & Chief Data Scientist

Third Point

MODERATOR

Tim Harrington.png

Tim Harrington

Co-Founder & Chief Executive Officer

BattleFin

TIMESTAMPS

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Tim Harrington: (00:06)
Thank you, Rachel and thank you to the SALT team. It's nice to actually be back in person and interacting with people, not having to worry about whether you're on viewed, whether you you've got pants on. So this is live we're all back in person. We have an exciting topic. It's alternative data. I'm Tim Harrington, CEO of BattleFin. Our mission has always been to help source evaluate test and find datasets for the financial and corporate community. We're really excited. SkyBridge is a new investor in BattleFin. So really excited to be working with Anthony, John, Joe, the whole team, and really excited to be sharing alternative data with the audience. So why don't we get started? We'll do a couple of quick intros, try to make it as informative as possible. So Carrie, tell us a little about yourself and SimilarWeb.

Carrie Lazorchak: (01:03)
Okay, great. First of all, I'm very excited to be here. As Tim said, it's nice to be able to interact with people again, I didn't realize how exhausting it is though, I will say, forgot about that. But just as by way of introduction, my name is Carrie Lazorchak and I'm the chief revenue officer of a company called SimilarWeb. First of all, to our clients in the audience, I want to say thank you very much for your business. And for those of you that aren't familiar with SimilarWeb, our mission is pretty simple. We want to help companies win in their market. And the way that we do that is we measure the digital world. We look at the trends across both consumer trends and business trends, across millions of digital properties globally. And we provide that insight and information back to our customers through a very easy to use platform and visualization.

Carrie Lazorchak: (01:56)
Now, Tim was very clear that the big thing people want to know is how and where and what kind of data, et cetera, which obviously some of that's the secret sauce, but I'll try to break it down into a little bit of the art and a little bit of the science. The sciences is, we have a lot of data. We're processing about 10 billion digital signals a day, about two terabytes of data daily that we analyzed. But the art of it is really in how we blend all of the data sources. And those sources are a combination of direct analytics data and anonymize traffic data, partnerships that we have in public data. And we combine that all together with machine learning and unique algorithms, and then deliver that to our clients. Like I said, through a very easy to use visualization platform. And I think that's a key thing we'll talk a little bit about today.

Carrie Lazorchak: (02:49)
There's a lot of data out there. I think the key for this audience is to really understand how to consume that data and how to use that data towards all of your objectives. So really excited to be here and look forward to being part of this panel.

Tim Harrington: (03:02)
Great. And SimilarWeb went public recently, so congratulations.

Carrie Lazorchak: (03:05)
Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much.

Tim Harrington: (03:07)
I've been following you guys for years. I know you've had some of the best Netflix calls I've ever seen [crosstalk 00:03:1] growth. For those of you that follow Netflix, huge subscriber growth story started to fade. You guys called it then international took off, called it again. So kudos on that. Really awesome data set for you guys and the audience to check out. Rodney, tell us a little bit about Visible Alpha.

Rodney Pedersen: (03:35)
Yeah. Thank you, Tim. So Rodney Pedersen, chief revenue officer with Visible Alpha. Visible Alpha came to the market about five years ago to address a pretty significant gap that we saw being consensus estimates, or forecast data for publicly traded companies. All of you have seen this play out, if you've ever read the wall street journal. Company expectations were always made available at a high level, so sales or EPS and never at a granular level, but the investment debate and the investment thesis is always about more granular issues with companies and the sell side analysts that contributed to those revenue and earnings forecasts have always modeled companies at a greater degree of depth. It was just never information that was made available at scale.

Rodney Pedersen: (04:22)
So Visible Alpha came to the market to expose that content and bring value to that content in ways that hadn't been done before. So we source data from full working Excel models, from the sell side. We extract all of the data from those models and align it into a common structure for a publicly traded company. We to process a lot of data, I think on a trailing three month basis, we process about 90,000 models, from the south side it's about 6,000 contributing sell side analysts and ultimately give the buy-side the most comprehensive picture into the market forecasts for any key issue on a company.

Tim Harrington: (04:59)
Great. And I've read a bunch of your work. I think you had an airline piece out recently. I had no idea how many KPIs are actually in the airline industry, key performance indicators. But, if you follow the airlines, check out that report, pretty awesome. And a man who needs no introduction, but we'll let you give one ,Matt over to you.

Matt Ober: (05:20)
Thank you. I'm Matt Ober, I'm the chief data scientist at Third Point. We're about a $20 billion asset manager investing across equity, structured credit and venture investments. And our team looks to take data and technology to provide insights into the different investments we make.

Tim Harrington: (05:39)
Great. And Matt and I actually met years and years ago when he was at WorldQuant, was one of the first people to attend some of the battlefield events in Miami. So it's great to be back on stage with you after whatever, five or seven years. But let's dig right in. I think the space has seen a tremendous amount of growth, email receipt data, geolocation, satellite imagery. Rodney, from your perspective, what's been the real growth driver, what have you guys been seeing from that space?

Rodney Pedersen: (06:11)
I think it starts with a fact which is that the buy-side has to have a differentiated view to outperform and they have to do that on a sustained basis. If anybody sat in on the hedge fund comeback panel yesterday with Steve Cohen and Dmitry Balyasny, that was a key theme that came out of it. And I think that the expansion of data that's been made available in the marketplace over the last 10 years, which Visible Alpha certainly been a part of, has made it possible for the investment manager to get much more specific and much more granular and how they come up with an investment thesis, how they challenged the thesis and ultimately how they monitor that thesis in real time. And I think those that have done the best job at embracing the state of that's come to market have really put themselves in a position to use data in a way that will allow them to outperform. It's been fun to be a part of.

Tim Harrington: (07:07)
And Matt does that jive, are you guys hearing a lot of pull from analysts? Are you guys seeing that from the analyst perspective of I need more data, I need more answers or how does it play out from a buy-side perspective?

Matt Ober: (07:20)
Yeah, I think from our standpoint, all of this data just allows us to go deeper into our research on individual companies. And I think we're able to extract more insights. We have a really strong team. And I think at this point it's becoming part of the playbook that you have to take advantage of working with these great companies and figuring out how to leverage that across all the different investments we make, whether it's earlier in the private stage before they go public or further along. And I think just being able to distill insights from these large data sets is really the difficult part of the investment process. But it's where we find the true value.

Tim Harrington: (07:59)
And Carrie, we had talked a little bit about this. Do you guys feel a lot of pull for this real-time data? Especially given the COVID environment where we're coming out of, is there a really a pull from the buy-side and corporates to now, now, now?

Carrie Lazorchak: (08:14)
Yeah. I think to answer that direct question, the answer is, yes. It's definitely one of the main value propositions of our solution today and whether you want to understand right now at this moment, what are the major keywords that consumers are looking forward to understand where they're going, or you want to observe and understand what are the major purchase decisions that people are making on Amazon marketplace right now, at this minute, we definitely see that as a trend.

Carrie Lazorchak: (08:43)
I'm curious for this audience maybe by a show of hands, how many of you use alternative data today? Yeah. Okay. All right. Yeah. Okay. So my first, I think vis-a-vis back when we started talking about this whole panel on alternative data is, to me alternative data is a very weird name for this space, because I think as these guys just said, it's more necessity data and really what it comes down to now, it's like, how do you use that data? How do you consume all this real-time information? But definitely the acceleration of digital transformation is making the need for understanding of what's happening right now at this moment more important.

Tim Harrington: (09:24)
Yeah. And maybe to Rodney, as a recovering portfolio manager, you mentioned Steve, like I worked at SAC and I remember earning season being one of the most intense things, because you had your models, you were waiting for things to come out, you were kind of you're right or wrong in that instance. And I always thought about consensus was our bogey, so if our model is a lot higher then we'd figure out what the delta is, put a multiple on it and position size it. Trying to think about how to navigate through COVID, I can't even imagine the disparity of analysts. Like what, what did you guys see from the Visible Alpha side? You know, aggregating all of these data sets, these different estimates and where are we now?

Rodney Pedersen: (10:19)
Yeah. It's a great question. It's been really interesting to watch the data as we've gone through COVID. And with forecast data, you're respective of the issue that you're looking at. What you usually see is well ahead of the reporting period, estimates are relatively wide. And then as you approach the reporting period and companies release more information spreads narrow, and there's less uncertainty in the marketplace. But as you look across sectors 18 to 20 months into this environment, there's a lot of uncertainty that we see in forecast data. You mentioned airlines earlier. We were actually looking at airlines travel and leisure companies in the US a couple of weeks ago. And we were comparing dispersion and estimates today, versus what the dispersion estimates look like pre COVID. And today estimates are actually three and a half times wider. There's three and a half times more dispersion and estimates in September of 2021 than there was for a similar forecast horizon pre COVID. So I'm not telling anybody, probably something that you don't intuitively know, which is we're in a more uncertain world, but understanding the magnitude of that uncertainty has been an interesting.

Tim Harrington: (11:29)
And Matt, does that help your analyst, hurt your analysts? What do you guys feel when you see this dispersion of analyst estimates?

Matt Ober: (11:38)
I think volatility presents opportunity. And when there's unknowns, it allows us to have a differentiated view and having all of this information allows our team to do a deeper dive, better understand the company, the KPIs, and really understand what is it that we're seeing in real time? And I think that's become a big trend. Especially during COVID was all the digital transformation we're seeing across all companies and every sector, having information at our fingertips, understanding what's happening when we're all at home, it's beyond important.

Tim Harrington: (12:13)
And Carrie following up on that disparity opportunity. Do you guys tend to get more calls or more interest when things are all over the place, and then you can add value a lot more in those situations? Or what do you think on the disparity like this happening? Does that play well for you guys?

Carrie Lazorchak: (12:34)
I'd say the message we hear is twofold. Both from the companies and from this audience, historical data is not as relevant anymore. So a lot of times people are just studying it to the side and seeing whatever used to be the trend, just assume it's not going to be the trend and start with fresh new data. So we're seeing a lot of people come to us, come to the platform, not spend as much time on the historical data, but really trying to understand what are the more recent trends and then try quarterly those trends to how that may look in the future. So we're definitely seeing that both from companies trying to build strategies and from this audience who are really trying to track performance and understand what's happening.

Tim Harrington: (13:18)
Great. And on some of the calls prior to this, we discussed a couple names just because it's obviously a financial community here. The one that we wanted to take a look at first was Peloton, just giving, so much going on in that name. Rodney, set the stage for us, give us the view on Peloton and what's happening here.

Rodney Pedersen: (13:40)
Yeah. Well, just to the conversation earlier, I think the first question is about revenue, but it's really about much more granular issues. And so we see analysts grappling with a few different issues with Peloton. One is new unit deliveries, which is something that we track invisible office. So how many people are going to buy bikes and treadmills that didn't already purchase them. And there's actually a pretty wide dispersion of estimates for the coming quarters when you look at that. And I think this quarter will be the first quarter where we see results on the lower cost products that Peloton has put out in the marketplace. So pretty big spread in estimates there, a lot of uncertainty. And another key question that we see in the models is churn in their subscription business. So as people contemplate going back to gyms and maybe working out less at home and more at the gym, there's a decent amount of uncertainty on how much churn Peloton is going to see in the quarters to come on their subscription model.

Tim Harrington: (14:37)
And Matt, how do you guys key in on that? Is that, I don't even know if Peloton is a name that you guys look at fairly frequently, but is it also just trying to pick up trends within that space or will you dive right down into the single stock name?

Matt Ober: (14:54)
Yeah, I think for us, we think about even in the fitness industry in general. With Peloton being that first mover in the digital transformation, how are they getting their bikes? What does that supply chain look like? How does the data at the ports look? And then really, how does that look for all the gyms across the country? Not only the large chains, but some of the boutiques. So we think about that as a way to gauge how people are thinking about COVID. And it has a larger impact on just macro trends. So I think we see even individual companies as ways to look at a broader sectors that may not be specifically related, but it helps us just map out our thought process.

Tim Harrington: (15:36)
Great. And Carrie, over to you. What's the data going to tell us here?

Carrie Lazorchak: (15:41)
Well, first of all, I find this a very biased area because I'm a huge Peloton user. So I don't know about you, but when you're tracking investments for the companies you like, you want to root for them. So I'm rooting for Peloton, for sure. I think the one area of our data that's interesting right now is we can see, one of the things that they've been trying to do is really expand the market share, expand the audience of people that can have access to their services and their products. And they introduced this, buy now, pay later model, which is something that's new. It's definitely a new set of data that you have to look at because now you're not getting that immediate view of exactly the people that have purchased the equipment, but the people that are purchasing the equipment and being able to track that, I think that's going to be an interesting insight that we see, we do see positive trends around that as a new consumer opportunity in the new expansion of their market capabilities

Tim Harrington: (16:38)
Yeah. I think this is also why alternative data is so important because you're able to look at what SimilarWeb's saying, you're able to look at how maybe the brand is trending. You're able to see anything from geolocation, are people returning back to those gyms, are they doing different things? Just as we've talked about earlier, being able to combine some of these data sets and get a full picture and leverage the Visible Alpha detail is just so important going forward.

Rodney Pedersen: (17:10)
Yeah. And Tim, I think that also highlights a significant shift from where we were 10 to 15 years ago with data just in the intelligence that you can get intro period as to what's happening with the business. And I don't think that's just limited to people that are trading in the shorter term. Anybody that's looking for insight into a business, you can get a lot of really interesting signals of what's happening in real time. We actually see with our models data, 40% of all the models that we process come from the south side outside of earnings. So if you think about, we process 90,000 models on a trailing three months basis, 40% of every data point that we process is not around earnings. That's a lot of information flow that's happening in real time. Yeah.

Tim Harrington: (17:55)
And let's turn to Zoom. This is obviously one that everyone has probably lived through the past 18 months. We've seen probably one of the greatest success stories of a right time, right place type of company. Rodney was this from zero to a hundred? And set the stage for us with zoom. And then let's talk through it from a data perspective.

Rodney Pedersen: (18:21)
Yeah. The debate that we see in the models on Zoom is your classic software debate, which is what will their new client acquisition look like going forward? How many new customers can they attract that didn't already come onto the Zoom platform? The second question, which is probably more significant for the business, which is how can they expand revenue from their existing client base with some of the new products that they have coming to market? And just like I talked about with Peloton, but any key issue per subscription businesses churn. And so as people are going back to work back to the office, will companies start to pair back on their Zoom subscriptions and Zoom accounts, just like with Peloton? There's a wide dispersion of views on those topics. And actually with the customer count numbers, Zoom had a long history of beating visible office consensus for net new customer additions until last quarter, it was the first time that they had missed. So I think there's a lot of uncertainty that's been introduced there and it'd be fascinating to watch it play out.

Tim Harrington: (19:24)
Yeah. And it seems this highlights some of your data. It seems like the story is changing as well, so you've got what people think about the traditional Zoom subscription. Now they start layering on the telephone offering, which is two or three times the ARPU. So, having the ability to drill down and say, okay, year over year comps are getting tougher and tougher. And I think we talked about it and it wasn't till like...

Rodney Pedersen: (19:54)
Really difficult comps for what they achieved last year. For sure.

Tim Harrington: (19:57)
Yeah. Maybe it's not next year, even the 2023 or wherever it is. How are you going to be able to figure out what the next step is and what's working? What's not? And I can remember as an investor, you never wanted to see decelerating comps at a tech company. So that was always a warning, but now you've got this whole telephone side, high margin, probably lower customer acquisition costs. So it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Matt, any perspectives on Zoom?

Matt Ober: (20:29)
I think for us, Zoom is a great way to gauge the work from home and the hybrid workforce. And are we going back into the office? Rather than focus on it just as a single company itself, it really gives us a sense of what's going to happen with business travel. Are coming back into the office? are we all moving to this work from home hybrid? So is that the new standard? I think that's been one of the big things on our mind and what a lot of people are watching Zoom for outside of just how Zoom is doing on its own. And I think with these tools that we have now, whether it's Visible Alpha or SimilarWeb like, we have so many more tools at our disposal that it makes us more efficient to be able to look at that quickly and get a good sense of where we're moving.

Tim Harrington: (21:14)
Got you. And Carrie, what's the data telling us?

Carrie Lazorchak: (21:17)
Well, first I think it's a really interesting space to watch right now for two reasons. One, I think one thing that we see with alternative data of Austin, you can watch and industry and you use what you see happening in one industry to correlate to another industry. So that's one thing. Specifically as it relates to Zoom, I think it's interesting the comment you made about the phone and they've been very clear about a strategy to really go after unified communication, broaden the range for which they're providing services to companies. In some way, I think the delays and they get back to the office are going to work to their advantage. It's going to give them more time to condition what is an audience that they have a lot of attention with right now, on the opportunities to continue to use Zoom and to use some of Zoom's new offerings.

Carrie Lazorchak: (22:05)
I know they did an acquisition recently of Five9, which is interesting to watch and see what happens there. So I'd say it's a great space to watch. I think there's other correlating industries to some of the points that were made here, that you can also look at what's happening in those trends, whether it's business travel and some of those things and correlate the speed and rate at which we think people will start to come back to the office and whether that's going to have more impact presumes specifically. But right now I think they have a really good opportunity, because the more people are home and the more people get used to being at on, I think the more businesses are going to accommodate a hybrid structure going forward and that's going to work to their advantage.

Tim Harrington: (22:47)
Yeah. It's interesting. You don't really think about, you're probably not getting rid of your Zoom account. You're always going to have it. It's just a new way of life. But at the same time as with everything it's earnings expectations, are they going to continue to grow, things like that. And now I guess one of the things, we constantly get pinged from different buy-side clients on the bigger themes. So, whereas alternative data can be great very much on a company by company basis. I think it's also incredibly important right now, when you think about some of the larger investment themes, whether its inflation, Matt touched on the work from home trends, unemployment with some of the things happening there. I guess Rodney, as you look to 2022 and see across the different analysts out there, what are some of those themes that you guys are keying in on for next year?

Rodney Pedersen: (23:44)
Yeah. We actually put out a blog post a couple of weeks ago on inflation on our website. And did a little bit of what Matt was talking about, which is looking at company data as an indicator for something broader. And so we looked for companies in our data set that have significant exposure to the lumber industry, which lumber has been a key talking point in the pricing debate and then companies with exposure to use cars. So Weyerhaeuser is one of the larger lumber producers in the world. All the analysts that model that company forecast lumber prices well into the future. Analysts correctly predicted that lumber crisis would peak in Q2 and begin to taper off. But what was interesting to observe is that analysts are actually forecasting by the end of 2022 for lumber prices to remain 80% above pre pandemic levels. And it doesn't feel so transitory and those expectations may play out to be correct.

Rodney Pedersen: (24:47)
They may not play out to be correct, but as all of you work to formulate your own views on inflation, how it impacts your businesses, your investments, there's some interesting signals that you can look for in a company oriented data. Another thing that we looked at was Carvana, which is one of the larger providers or larger sellers of used cars. In the inflation readings that came out this morning, there was a slight deceleration in relation and used car prices had come down. What's interesting in those models is the consensus for used car pricing. Next quarter is 11%. But if you look under the hood, the spread is negative 2%, all the way up to 20% growth year over year on used car prices. Consensus is probably a bad descriptor for that. It's really more of a range of estimates. Into the point that we've been talking about in this panel, I think it highlights uncertainty. And to what Matt said, where there's uncertainty there's opportunity.

Tim Harrington: (25:46)
Yeah. The auto sector in general, to leverage alternative data for trading that in the last 12 to 24 months has been, looking at even the Fords that have had these huge accelerations, stocks performed really well, raised numbers. Next thing you know, you see supply chain issues, you see chip shortages, all of a sudden you're back, nine to 15 to 12. So layering on alternative data, it can be so powerful. Matt, as you looked at 2022, any blind spots? Any things that you're looking for data to help answer these different questions?

Matt Ober: (26:25)
I think it's some of the topics that were just been touching on, it's watching the supply chain, seeing how that's going to be affected around the world. I think the digital transformation we saw accelerated during COVID, I think we think that's going to continue to accelerate and looking at how do we better track that. We have a huge presence at this conference in digital assets, how is digital assets going to affect all of these different sectors, whether it's cryptocurrencies defy the metaverse. So I think for us, it's just being able to look at all these sources and think about it not only in the public markets, but also private companies as we invest earlier.

Tim Harrington: (27:00)
Is there a big disparity in terms of the data sets that you look for, or that you currently work with on the private side versus the public, or they cross over to bowls?

Matt Ober: (27:12)
I think a lot of them cross over to both. I think, SimilarWeb is a great example that they're covering all these companies as they move more and more digitally, and we're able to see them earlier and earlier. So for a company like ours, it helps our analysts know who the potential disruptors are to the public markets. So I would say it's exciting to see a lot of the data providers we've been using for many years, expand the universe that they're covering.

Tim Harrington: (27:37)
Interesting. And what stage do you guys look at, is it an early stage? Is it more series B, C, D? Where do you guys get in-

Matt Ober: (27:47)
Typically series B and further along the line.

Tim Harrington: (27:50)
Okay. And yeah, because I'd imagine the private world is so much different than the public world. Rodney, you guys, I don't think you do any private stuff, correct?

Rodney Pedersen: (27:59)
No, everything that we cover is publicly traded equities. I will say that we work with a relatively small number of private equity firms that look for insight in publicly traded equities for the impact on private markets. But yeah, we cover publicly traded equities.

Tim Harrington: (28:14)
And Carrie, it sounds like from Matt, you've covered both, then is it corporate or is it also kind of the PE and VC firms and...

Carrie Lazorchak: (28:24)
All the above. I think that one of the key reasons people come to SimilarWeb is because you can see consumer trends, you can see broad market trends, consumer behavior trends in real time and it's applicable to all segments. I think Matt said it very well, actually. Yeah.

Tim Harrington: (28:45)
And I know we're running out of time, but kind of speed round closing. We want the audience to walk away smarter, thinking alternative data as the answer. Carrie, if you wanted to have those bullet points, what would they be in the minds of the audience to walk out of here with?

Carrie Lazorchak: (29:06)
I think one of the most interesting things to consider right now is the movement of a lot of legacy brands to D to C. We see very interesting correlations of data when you look at our technographics information and the number of classic indirect companies implementing technologies like Shopify and e-commerce, B2B software, there's a huge trend towards more direct to consumer relationship. We hear it from the customers directly when we talk to them about how they're using our data, because they want to understand what's the demand and what's the trends. And we see a lot of investment there. So I think the B2B software space is a very interesting space to watch. And I think that trend to D to C is going to really create a new dynamic of, and a new area of data that people are going to need to evaluate companies.

Tim Harrington: (29:59)
And one thing, when we started BattleFin, it was very quant driven. So a lot of the quant funds were the first ones to engage cause they could understand the various data sets. And I was just like, give me everything, just throw the data at me. I don't want any insights relative to it. And then we saw an evolution where the fundamental funds and even some of the corporates were coming in and trying to understand it. And I think one thing that you guys seem to have done a good job of was, I don't know, I call it mapping it to tickers, but actually talking about things in terms of companies and public companies. When you guys did that, did you guys start to see more traction? Because it seems like it's a lot easier for us to talk about Peloton and different KPIs than it is to say, okay, here's the algo, here's the machine learning answer. From that perspective, did you guys see a jump in attention and traction once you did that?

Carrie Lazorchak: (31:07)
First of all, I think we're starting to do more of that. I think one area that you'll see from SimilarWeb and I think my solutions head is here. He'll tell you, you'll see more and more information from SimilarWeb that looks at ticker symbol, tickers themselves and aggregates the data for you. But it really depends on the audiences and what you're looking for. But yes, I think we'll do more and more of that. We have more and more demand for that. So you will see that, but obviously because we also play in the private space, there's people that are just coming to look for the trends and understand who's the next big player in any given market. And we provide insights to that as well.

Tim Harrington: (31:47)
Rodney, speed round, minute left, you got, you and Matt, bring us home.

Rodney Pedersen: (31:52)
Yeah. The first thing that I would say is a lot of people think about data and acquiring new data sets as a strategy to come up with better ideas. And that's certainly valid. I would encourage everybody to think about your data strategy also as looking for data that will challenge your views. And I think the more that you can find data that will challenge your own views, ultimately the greater conviction you can have in your ideas and a better probability of differentiating in the long run. That's one really important thing.

Rodney Pedersen: (32:24)
The second thing that I would say is, I think it's very rare that a single data set is going to give you a lot of really great answers. And ultimately where I think people like Matt have created opportunity is by connecting data sets in very meaningful ways. SimilarWeb and Visible Alpha, maybe we should, but we don't really talk. One another we don't create linkages between our data sets. So the managers that invest the time and the energy to create meaningful connections between data sets can uncover insights that others will never see. And I think that's an important part of any data strategy and encourage everybody to think about that.

Tim Harrington: (33:06)
Matt bring us home.

Matt Ober: (33:07)
I just think, in the last 10 years, if we think about where we've come with data and hedge funds, it's become a staple. It's no longer alternative like Carrie said, and working with these strong providers, these are great companies that are out there and we don't have to do everything ourselves makes our team more efficient, allows us to dive deeper into understanding companies and what data can really uncover unknowns. And I think the opportunity is only growing with all of this unique data that's out there.

Tim Harrington: (33:35)
Great. We have 50 of probably the most amazing alternative data providers down on the fourth floor doing one-on-one meetings. So if you have an investment thesis, you want to figure out inflation, you have a company, come down, join us, ask the questions. Thank you guys. Great panels. Look forward to seeing the rest of the conference.

Carrie Lazorchak: (33:54)
Yeah. Thank you.

Positioning Companies for the End Game: Spacs, Direct Listings, M&A & IPOS | #SALTNY

Positioning Companies for the End Game: Spacs, Direct Listings, M&A & IPOS with Michal Katz, Head of Investment & Corporate Banking, Americas, Mizuho Americas. Bob Diamond, Founding Partner & Chief Executive Officer, Atlas Merchant Capital. Betsy Cohen, Chairman, FinTech Masala.

Moderated by Janet Levaux, Editor-in-Chief, ThinkAdvisor.

Powered by RedCircle

 

SPEAKERS

Headshot - Katz, Michal - Cropped.jpeg

Michal Katz

Managing Director & Head of Investment and Corporate Banking

Mizuho Americas

Headshot - Diamond, Bob - Cropped.jpeg

Bob Diamond

Founding Partner & Chief Executive Officer

Atlas Merchant Capital

 
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Betsy Cohen

Chairman

FinTech Masala

MODERATOR

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Janet LeVaux

Editor-in-Chief

ThinkAdvisor

TIMESTAMPS

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Janet Levaux: (00:08)
Afternoon. I hope everybody had a good lunch with Paris Hilton. While Paris Hilton was taking pictures with the paparazzi, this team you see here was talking about how many SPACs they'd been managing to get going during the pandemic. So it's a different dynamic, and it's just great to be here with this amazing panel today. We'll talk about the focus of the end game, but we'll also be talking about what is going on in raising capital. Also, at the beginning of the game, across the spectrum of the financial landscape and the panel has, of course, a lot to say, based on their experience and also what's going on in the financial markets today.

Janet Levaux: (00:53)
To my immediate left is Michal Katz, head of investment and corporate banking at Mizuho Americas. Then we have Bob Diamond, founding partner and CEO of Merchant Capital. And then, of course, Betsy Cohen, the most experienced member of our team and chair of FinTech masala with many SPACs and other achievements behind her, of course. So to begin the discussion, we'll go ahead and turn to Michal first. What's the macro situation for deal-making in your mind today in capital raising, Michal.

Michal Katz: (01:31)
Thanks, Janet. So maybe starting on the macro side of things, the economic recoveries, and very solid footing. When you take a look at the balance sheet of the consumer and corporations, incredibly healthy consumers have been delivering during the pandemic saving money. We have low delinquency rates and a low household debt service burden. Similarly, for corporations sitting on troves of cash de-levering and we have been looking at the earnings over the last couple of quarters and seeing that 70% of corporations, even north of that have beat earnings. Also, interesting to see that so many corporations now are giving guidance. Again, this demonstrating confidence and where they believe their businesses are going.

Michal Katz: (02:21)
And banks similarly are incredibly well-capitalized, and none of us can forget the fact that this economy is very much supported by fiscal stimulus. And so you take all these factors together and look at where the equity markets are today near all highs, low volatility, really bringing together a certain degree of confidence among management teams, boards, and investors, to pursue deal-making activity. And that's exactly what we've been seeing across capital markets, as well as M&A.

Janet Levaux: (02:56)
Right. Bob, how about a little bit of the macro view on what we're seeing in raising capital today?

Bob Diamond: (03:04)
So when I think about that, I start with what does the financial services space looks like today prior to 2008? And prior to the financial crisis, banks for decades were becoming more global and more universal. And I think it's a stark contrast today and it's creating huge opportunities. So I want to paint the picture a little bit, but the conclusion is that the legacy banks, the larger national banks here in the US, UK, Europe, really across the piece are much more like utilities today than they had been previously. And if you think about that, it starts with the regulatory reaction to the financial crisis. The primary reaction was buffer upon buffer of capital. So make the banks safe, ensure no more systemic risk. I think the irony is that if you look at the large national banks here in the US and in the UK, in Europe, really again, across the piece, they're actually larger than prior to the crisis, but worryingly there's more concentration of risk.

Bob Diamond: (04:20)
There's more concentration of business. So while they are safe, they're much more like utilities. And we see it, we see they regulate more like utilities, they're managed more like utilities. They recruit staff more like utilities. And most importantly, the investors treat them more like utilities in terms of the returns. And what that's meant is that there's just a phenomenal opportunity for competition that is more agile, more mobile, more reactive, and that comes from specialist firms. It can be specialist lending firms or advisory firms. It could be specialists that are national or regional competing just in one area. And I think the strongest implication has been on technology.

Bob Diamond: (05:10)
And when you add all that up to what it means, number one, prior to 2008, about 95% of the market cap of financial services was the large national banks. Today it's just under 70%. And I think we're just beginning in terms of... We've seen for a while, Apple and PayPal, and others kind of steal the march on technology around consumer payments. But it's just at the early stages with the commercial banking activities of treasury transaction services, digital currencies, Bitcoin, Stablecoin, the impact of all that has been quite dramatic. So all in all, I think it makes for a fascinating investment environment because of that change.

Janet Levaux: (05:55)
Thank you. And Betsy, could you speak a bit about what you see as the newest factors or dynamics driving change in capital raising and financial services? Be they technological or other types of disruption that you're seeing?

Betsy Cohen: (06:17)
I think that there's an opportunity and the recognition that the kind of disbursement that Bob was talking about, which is a result of a reaction to the risk is really an opportunity for the diversification of the services that we see occurring at this moment, I think it was an evolution which followed several trajectories. One was the acceptance of technology as a real thing. And secondly, the consumer and small business adoption, which was a curve that needed to be followed and increased before there could be a real marketplace. So I think that's what I would add to what Bob was saying.

Janet Levaux: (07:27)
And in terms of where we are today and what you might see as coming up next, could each of you speak a little bit to either the opportunities first or the risks that you're seeing? Betsy already outlined some of the growth opportunities there.

Betsy Cohen: (07:45)
Is there an opportunity? Yeah, there's continuing opportunity to both the one distributed platforms, both to create greater certainty around the execution of financial transactions, which themselves are dispersed and to gather, and I think one of the great trends today is the importance of the gathering of data and the figuring of that data and making it more useful and therefore more productive and more profitable.

Janet Levaux: (08:31)
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And Bob, could you speak to maybe opportunities within specific areas, such as LVOs, MNAs, SPACs, anything like that, that you're seeing?

Bob Diamond: (08:42)
There are risks and opportunities. They'll start with one risk that I think is interesting, we kind of face it day to day now. We have invested in a number of smaller broker-dealers that compete with the larger and that concentration that's happening. But if I look at the retail side, four US banks now have over 50% of the deposits in the United States just way too concentrated. And we're seeing that the regulators are just so comfortable with the size and with the large banks that they allow the sponsorship in FICC and CCP. And what that means is that the larger banks are able to net down what appears in the balance sheet, while taking on 100% of the risk.

Bob Diamond: (09:30)
And it's not obvious to investors, but to me, as an investor in financial services, it really makes it tough for the challengers and the non-large banks to compete in many of the broker-dealer areas. On the other hand, I see far more opportunity than risks. So I think that's one to point out. And I think for someone who's been with non-US financial institutions of Credit Suisse and Barclays for over 20 years, it's obvious to me, but not obvious to anyone, what a huge advantage it is to be in the US where the capital markets are so deep and so rich, and the ability to execute transactions and get new businesses running and the opportunity is for technology and financial services are so different here.

Bob Diamond: (10:18)
I was in London last week. And we're looking with a group of people from the UK at the potential for SPAC markets there, they're still fussing around with whether or not they want to be in SPACs or not. Where the US has gone up and down, right? We've had problems with SPACs. It's retracing, it's doing this, it's doing that, but we're seeing innovation at work. And we're seeing a really deep capital market. You get to the UK and you see this enormous uproar at these big and bad private equity firms from the US who are taking over their grocery store that's a national jewel and my reaction and American reaction to that would be well, if you really care about that company, maybe you can stop crucifying the public market CEO for the compensation that you've got. And this is counterintuitive for a second and sorry to go on so long, but the capital markets in the US creates such opportunity for investment and for growth.

Bob Diamond: (11:13)
And every time there's a hiccup, whether it was 2008 or with SPACs now, there's a correction in recovery as opposed to a freezing of the institutions, which you typically see more in Europe than in the UK. And I think that just creates a much different environment. On the other hand, let's just look at the legacy banks and take two extreme examples of JP Morgan, a very successful US bank, and Deutsche who has struggled, with all the positives for JP Morgan versus Deutsche, JP Morgan's trading close to two times book and Deutsche is at 30% of the book. And so I am also seeing some valuation discounts that have really worked into the system over time. So that was a bit scrambled, but I think there're both risks and opportunities here, Janet.

Janet Levaux: (12:01)
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Michal, would you like to weigh in?

Michal Katz: (12:04)
Yeah, I think in terms of opportunities, one of the common threads that I've seen in this conference, as well as the digital transformation that's appending, every industry and the financial sector is clearly not immune. And that's powered by blockchain, artificial intelligence, and other technology, which has over time really lowered the price of entry so to speak. I was looking the other day that the market cap of PayPal, which was very much on par with one of the largest US banks. So that really does support Bob's argument in terms of the disruption and our senior FinTech analysts that Mizuho said the other day, that he views investing in the square today to be akin to investing in JP Morgan back in 1871, just think about the magnitude of opportunity that exists through this digital transformation.

Michal Katz: (13:00)
And it's not just financial services, it's hitting every sector. Tesla is at 700 billion market cap, the next five largest auto manufacturers. Airbnb just debuted with a hundred billion market cap, I think that's larger than Hyatt Hilton and Marriott combined. And so those are some of the things that I'm watching for in terms of opportunities to participate in the disruption. In terms of the challenges, I will tell you, I am paying very close attention to what's happening in terms of regulation, as it relates to deal activity. We are definitely seeing and hearing rhetoric that federal agencies should be using their enforcement powers to protect competition against industries that have been consolidating. And as the impact is longer in M&A review periods potentially, more expensive remedies, or even transactions that get abandoned and we just saw that with a 30 billion transaction between Aon and Willis Towers Watson, which decided to walk away from because of an impasse with the DOJ and it's not the only one there have been other transactions. So I would say these are some of the challenges or say things that I'm looking for in the landscape.

Janet Levaux: (14:24)
Well, you brought up the issue of regulation. Would either any of you like to mention or describe the fallout from the situation with China and the limitations that have been imposed on Chinese firms coming public here? Is it something that we could see from other places, or is it important in terms of technology and other capital flow movement that might be of concern to you or are you expecting it? Betsy, could you weigh in on it at all? Or Bob? You know, the rule of the Chinese regulators effectively telling their firms that they can't couple up with the US.

Betsy Cohen: (15:09)
Yeah. I think we have to really separate out the depth of the capital markets from the rate of growth in the non-US markets. And I think it's very different if you take a look at Africa that Bob knows as well. There is an opportunity because this is the first generation of the adoption of smartphones and other connectivity that provides you with opportunities for growth that are potentially outsize to the depth of the capital markets within the US. So I may be looking at it in terms of a future opportunity, as opposed to the current situation. I think that there continues to be an education gap, but as adoption continues, that will in fact become potentially a less relevant issue.

Janet Levaux: (16:36)
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bob, would you like to weigh in?

Bob Diamond: (16:41)
I think there are a number of situations where effective thoughtful regulation can be a real positive. And I think we've had many situations in the past, and hopefully now. I think looking at SPACs is an opportunity. I think SPACs are definitely here to stay. I think SPACs are evolving as probably they should. I think strong sponsors, we think of ourselves as a strong sponsor, and I know Betsy does as well, support strong regulation so that we don't have bad behavior. But we think the evolution includes that more and more of the market is going to support those with real sector expertise, rather than just raising money with a single name celebrity. I think it will really favor people with a platform of investment that has been in funds and other areas before not just starting from scratch.

Bob Diamond: (17:34)
And I think they're going to look at the track record, but I think there'll be fewer SPACs. I think we had a bit of a very, very healthy issuance in the first quarter of this year that will probably slow down. And I think strong platforms with strong sector equities and a good track record are going to welcome some regulation around transparency here and I think it going to be positive. I think in the digital space where I know there's a lot of controversies today and over the last few weeks about regulation and in some of the things that are happening, our interest has been in Stablecoin. We recently announced the merger of our first SPAC Concord acquisition corp with Circle and circle is Stablecoin.

Bob Diamond: (18:24)
Stablecoin means people have to believe in each USD is worth a dollar today, tomorrow, and every day. So we've announced that we're going to apply to be a regulated bank. We've changed our investments to be just cash and treasuries. And we recognize what the regulators are saying, which is if we're going to have a private-sector digital alternative. It has to be so regulated and so sound for it to be appropriate. And I think if you turn that on its head, and if there was no attention being paid by the regulators, we probably would not have effective digital currencies. And the benefit of driving costs down for a lot of our transactions is what we're looking for. So I guess what I'm saying is I think effective regulation in both of those areas would be welcomed.

Janet Levaux: (19:19)
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Michal, would you like to add anything there?

Michal Katz: (19:23)
With respect to which one?

Janet Levaux: (19:24)
Either the rule of risk from regulation, or we could also turn to other risks such as high valuations and then go from there.

Michal Katz: (19:34)
Yeah, look, we talked about the geopolitical. We talked about the regulatory environment. I think valuation is an interesting one. You know, we've basically had a market that is near to old-time highs, and we have not seen a pullback in the market of 5% or so in over 300 days. And so the question is, is our valuation stretched? And I'll make a couple of observations around that. We talked earlier on about corporate earnings very much, not just meeting expectations, but being on solid footing. And if that continues to sustain itself, you're going to see the E and PE holding still. But I also think that when you look at the markets broadly, it probably merits a double-clicking across sectors because the performance has not been even across sectors. We've all seen energy being hard hit in March of last year. And that sector had recovered with recovering the price of oil.

Michal Katz: (20:41)
But when you take a look at the long-term valuation of the sector, it is still trading at a discount to that. Similarly, in consumers, we've had a run-up in discretionary, but consumer staples are not as richly valued and I can go on and on, and whether it be in healthcare were obviously been a beneficiary, if you can, during the pandemic, but we have seen a pullback in life sciences biotech, and it is trading at a discount to the healthcare index. What I would say is that when you think about long-term secular trends and we are in this multi-year digital transformation, those trends are here to stay. And the market opportunity around many sectors, as well as companies are quite significant and in many of them was the very early innings. And so you've got to think about valuations and that time horizon.

Michal Katz: (21:39)
Interestingly, our head of retail in Japan made a very astute observation when it comes to thematic investing in they said, it is time, not timing that matters. So if you think about the broader opportunity and you're willing to wait out the time, there's going to be an incredible opportunity. So yeah, we do for some sort of a correction. I'm not the first one to go on record that says that, likely so, but the question is whether we're in a solid economic environment where the corporations are doing well, what are the opportunities that we all have been talking about? I don't really see valuation to be the primary risk factor so to speak. But I will say that it does create a challenge for M&A activity, right?

Michal Katz: (22:30)
To the extent you've had a run-up in the valuation of a target, it does make the acquirer think about, first of all, the industrial logic always has to be there, but the synergies need to make sense. And then you obviously have investors who are the owners of that performer company that you need to think about. So valuation does become a factor, as you were thinking about deal-making activity.

Janet Levaux: (22:58)
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Have there been any recent transactions or examples of an LBO or a SPAC that is new to the market that you could point to as either particularly interesting or something that might point to where we could see more of this?

Betsy Cohen: (23:17)
Well, I think that a SPAC is really multi-dimensional, almost like a Rubik's cube and some of the parts are not complimentary. Some of the parts are really not in conflict, but certainly the intention. And there will be new responses. If a component, for example, if pipe investors are not seeing in the market place, the opportunity to over the advantage of the optionality that investment has, I'll say traditionally over the last seven to eight years provided them the structure will have to be changed and the valuations will have to be changed in order to be responsive to that if one wants to continue to have a format in which the capital raise is in excess of the trust value. And that is in fact a healthy thing and you begin to see it in terms of structures being created, which include current return in addition to future return, such as convertibles and discounts and all the rest of it.

Betsy Cohen: (25:03)
But it's all a matter of finding the comfort zone for investment for each of the parties, whether it be the company that is taking the pathway to the public market or the additional pipe investor, they're really not at loggerheads, but they're trying to find within an area which has not been tested as long as the IPO, and which may not have the level of investor confidence yet that is present in other markets, they're testing out ways to accommodate and to return an appropriate return to the various parties in the transaction. It's a fluid, we can be saying that it's a fluid element and that there's certainly sector rotation and other elements that are generally accepted in the marketplace that come into play. But you'll see people reaching out for the solution to this conundrum.

Bob Diamond: (26:35)
To pick up. As usual, Betsy hit the nail on the head. And I think there's a bit of confusion because I can't tell you how often someone says to me the pipe market is a mess. And I was looking at it like there is so much money to be put to work for good companies at the right valuation. And one of the things I really like about our experience with SPACs is when you've identified the right company, and you have a valuation if you can't execute a pipe with large sophisticated investors who love the pipe opportunity, because they get to look at a specific opportunity where a sponsor that they trust, who's already looked at it. They can meet with management, they can make their own decision. They don't have to say yes, if the valuation's right, they can put some serious money to work at that level.

Bob Diamond: (27:25)
And I think that's a check on the valuation that's coming out, right? If you can't get a number of large sophisticated investors to join the pipe, then your valuation is not going to happen and in the factor or whatever the phrase allergy is, it won't happen. Another thing I'd say about the importance of SPACs is we recently had a transaction where there was a very large asset management processing firm that we had a large investment in our fund. We're a minority investment, but the board hired two bulge bracket firms to do an IPO. The two bulge bracket firms said, okay, we're going to start the IPO process and during that, they interviewed six SPACs to see if that would be including our own.

Bob Diamond: (28:11)
And ultimately it was an outright sale to a large private equity firm, and one of the sovereigns who was in. So you had all these opportunities and that was a tremendous price discovery. And they ended up getting a higher price than they had anticipated from the beginning. So I think, again, it comes back to my comment on the depth of the capital markets. And is there a hiccup in SPACs? Sure, there's a bit too much issuance. That doesn't mean we close it down. Let's continue to have that market evolve and be a part of this big, deep capital market in the US which is of benefit.

Janet Levaux: (28:46)
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Michal Katz: (28:48)
Yeah. To pick up on Bob's comments is that there's never been a more, I would say, robust time to consider capital raise, then viewing into the public markets or considering M&A but I think the question is also what is the profile of the asset? What are the strategic and financing objectives of the company and where they are in their life cycle? And so if you are a company that has this brand name recognition or where you don't need primary capital direct listing may be a great opportunity or if you're looking for a SPAC, as we just talked about. A lot of opportunities, there's a new concept of SPAC offs, where companies are baking off SPACs one against each other. And then if you are a company that actually could benefit from being part of a broader platform, utilizing the resources, the brand name, the infrastructure for sales and marketing that a larger firm can have then M&A is the right option for you.

Michal Katz: (29:51)
So I really do think that need to think about what exactly are you trying to accomplish. But your question earlier about unique transactions when we talk about the M&A market, and we're kind of approaching record M&A volumes globally, I think we are north of 3 trillion of M&A volume, which I would say on an annualized basis, maybe even looking to surpass the record that we still back in 2007, and that's not just acquisitions and ad-on and scaling up. I think an interesting aspect of M&A is actually structured M&A, and we've seen corporations looking and evaluating their portfolio, whether independently or through pressure by investors, like how many that we have in the room here, and the questioning remained what is core and what is not core? And there is participation in these structured M&A's, and I mean divestitures, spins, reverse mores, what have you, and there's participation by both corporations as well as sponsors.

Michal Katz: (31:01)
So I'll give you an example of one that we have worked on. We worked with Apollo on the acquisition of Verizon media. That's the Yahoo AOL assets that Apollo acquired for $5 billion. And what's unique about that situation is that Verizon retained a 10% stake in the company, allowing them to participate in the upside of the company through new ownership, while at the same time, focusing on 5g rollout, and reliability of voice, data, and network, which are areas they have articulated to investors that they are going to be focusing on. But then another one on the corporate side, we sold AerCap acquiring assets out of GE capital aviation services, a $30 billion transaction, where there has been pressure on GE to focus on its industrial business so to speak. And this combination enabled GE to actually retain 47% of that combined entity.

Michal Katz: (32:07)
So I find these structured M&A transactions really interesting because they certainly allow for monetization of some of the assets while at the same time, allowing corporations to then take the proceeds and apply them to investments in areas of their core business, as well as capital return strategies, whether it be dividends, debt repayment, share buybacks, et cetera.

Janet Levaux: (32:33)
So we have about two minutes left. I wondered if I could do a quick question with each of the panelists. What do you watch the most right now because it interests you? Be it a particular financing type or company bank or industry sector. Could you tell the audience what you're really watching? Betsy, let's start with you.

Betsy Cohen: (32:58)
What are we watching in terms of the development of the SPAC market? Is that what you're suggesting? I think that what we see is that the market is emerging into a much more differentiated market that not every sponsor is being equal, but that there's the ability of investors and companies to be able to distinguish among sponsors who we think really represent the investors, unlike in an IPO, in terms of the larger banks, which are trying to get a deal to the market. That the opportunity for that kind of distinguishing among the players has emerged is really one of the trends that will stick.

Janet Levaux: (34:08)
Okay. Bob, real quick.

Bob Diamond: (34:09)
So I'm going to go back to the circle. We just announced our SPAC conquered one, announced a merger with Circle and this whole space of Stablecoins, digital currency, blockchain internet. We've seen a lot of development in the retail side of technology and banking with PayPal and Stripe and so much on the consumer or retail side. On the commercial side to do a large transaction, billions and billions of dollars from the UK to the US required a middleman, required a bank or a credit card company, or someone to stand in the middle, that's two or three points. And it happens Monday to Friday, nine to five at their discretion. Now, instantaneous, any sizes secure because of blockchain and because of the digital currency addition now driving the costs close to zero. So the ability to compete with that soft underbelly of the commercial banks in treasury and transaction services gets me very, very excited.

Janet Levaux: (35:17)
Michal?

Michal Katz: (35:20)
I know that we've run out of time here. I'll say, in addition to the digital transformation, I think ESG and particularly around sustainability, there's a lot of investment going into energy transition. So that's not just in the power utilities, energy sectors, it really is across every industry, industrials, real estate, sustainable development, and what have you. So that would be the second one.

Janet Levaux: (35:45)
Right. Thank you all very much for sharing your insights and experience.

Bob Diamond: (35:49)
Thank you, Janet.

A Digital Revolution in Emerging Markets with Kevin Carter | #SALTNY

A Digital Revolution in Emerging Markets with Kevin Carter, Founder & Chief Investment Officer, EMQQ.

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SPEAKER

Headshot - Carter, Kevin T. - Cropped.jpg

Kevin Carter

Founder & Chief Investment Officer

EMQQ

 

TIMESTAMPS

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Kevin Carter: (00:07)
So thank you all for showing up to hear my talk. I'm going to do three things today. First, I'm going to tell you who I am and how I think about investing, how I got involved with China and emerging markets 15 years ago. And then I would tell you everything I think you need to know about investing in emerging markets. I will tell you how we do it and why we think it's the best way to invest in both emerging and frontier markets. And then I'll talk a little bit about China and what's been going on there.

Kevin Carter: (00:44)
I live 15 miles east of San Francisco in a town called Lafayette. I've lived there my whole life, and I've worked in the investment business in the Bay Area for 28 years. I started at a company called Robertson Stephens & Company, which some of you may remember. It was a technology focused investment bank. We used to call it the Goldman Sachs of San Francisco. We don't say that anymore because young people think that means the devil. But that's where I started.

Kevin Carter: (01:15)
And I had one interview. It lasted about 30 minutes. We talked about college basketball for most of it. And then the guy said, "You can start Monday." And I said, "Well, how can I possibly start Monday? I don't know anything about investing." And he said, "Go buy this book." And he wrote down A Random Walk Down Wall Street. And I went to the bookstore and picked up the way home. I read it and went to work Monday.

Kevin Carter: (01:40)
And many of you are probably familiar with this book. It was first written almost 50 years ago. And in the first edition, the author, Burt Malkiel suggested that somebody should make an index fund. And a couple of years later, his friend John Bogle did. And so this book and its author have long been associated with indexing and ETFs.

Kevin Carter: (02:05)
Now I however, very quickly gravitated towards Omaha. And I try to think about every investment and business decision through a Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett lens. But for the last 22 years, I've actually worked with Dr. Burton Malkiel, the author of A Random Walk Down Wall Street. So I've had one foot in the active world, one foot in the indexing world. And in 1998, I was a very young, cocky value investor. And I was shorting amazon.com, which cost me about a third of my net worth in one day. And the same day I saw a company changed its name from KTEL to ktel.com and the stock went from $1 to $30. And I said, "I've read about this. I know I've read about this."

Kevin Carter: (02:58)
And I found my copy of A Random Walk Down Wall Street. And there was a quote from Jack Dreyfus about the 1960s electronics bubble. And the quote was basically, take a company called Shoelaces Incorporated, change the name to Silicon and Electronic Furth Burners. The stock used to sell for eight times earnings, but by changing the name, it can now sell for 64 times earnings. And it was exactly what it just happened with this company, KTEL. And I said, "I have to call this guy. It's right out of his book."

Kevin Carter: (03:33)
And so I used the search engine of the day, which for me was Ink to me. And I put in Dr. Burton Malkiel, and up came a Princeton web page with his picture and his class schedule and his phone number. And I picked up the phone and I dialed it, thinking I'd get a secretary or something. And lo and behold, he answered the phone. And I said, "Geez, Dr. Malkin, I don't know you, but I read your book." And I said, "You got to see this." And he asked me to fax him a Bloomberg print out or something. And I did.

Kevin Carter: (04:04)
Anyhow, one thing led to another. And now 22 years later, we've been business partners for two decades. So I've had one foot in the active world, one foot in the indexing world.

Kevin Carter: (04:15)
One of the companies we started in 2002 and sold to Natixis at the very end of 2004 was called Active Index Advisors, which still exists as a division of Natixis. It was a pioneer in what's now called direct indexing. But right before we sold the company, Google went public. And when Google went public, they asked my partner, Burton, to give a talk to the employees about investing. I wasn't involved with that, but Burton was on the West Coast and had dinner with me the night before. And then he went down to Mountain View and talk to the Googlers before their IPO.

Kevin Carter: (04:54)
And a few months later, my phone rang and it was a guy from Google who had googled me and he said, "Hey, I heard about this active indexing you do. How do I invest?" And I said, "Well, who's your advisor?" He said, "I don't have an advisor." I said, "Well, we're available at Morgan Stanley and Credit Suisse and Deutsche Bank. And I'm happy to introduce you to an advisor at one of those places." And he said, "No, I don't want an advisor. I just want to invest directly."

Kevin Carter: (05:20)
So I drove down to Mountain View and met with this 25-year-old with a nine-figure piece of stock and ended up becoming his investment advisor and the advisor to several of the earliest engineers at Google over the coming months. But while I was going back and forth to Mountain View, Burton was going back and forth to China. And he ended up writing a white paper, making the case for China. The Google people found out about it and called me and said, "Can Burton come down to Mountain View and talk about China?" And I said, "Sure. Next time he's on the West Coast, we'll come on down."

Kevin Carter: (06:02)
So 15 years ago, this spring, I drove to Mountain View one morning with Burton. He gave a talk about investing in China, and then all these people looked at me and said, "We want to invest in China."

Kevin Carter: (06:18)
Now at that point in my life, I didn't know very much about China. I had never been to China. All I knew was what I had read in Burt's paper. But from the moment that talk ended until today, my entire life has been focused on figuring out what on earth does that even mean to invest in China, and how should you do it? So with that, let me tell you what I've learned and what you need to know.

Kevin Carter: (06:49)
First of all, when we talk about emerging markets, we're talking about the world. And in terms of GDP, market cap population, this is about 60% Asia. It's about 20% the emerging Americas. And then 20% scattered between Eastern Europe, Middle East, and Africa. So that's what it looks like on the map. Fundamentally, it's the world. It's 85% of the world's people. It's even more of the future as measured by young people, for which it's almost 90% of the world. So this is the world and it's even more of the future. And it's a big deal.

Kevin Carter: (07:29)
And what's happening. You can see on this slide, on the left side, they're now larger than developed markets on a GDP basis. But on the right side, you'll see the emerging market share of a number of categories, three of which have red arrows. The top red arrow is showing you again, that this is where all the people are. The bottom red arrows are showing you that in the consumption categories, retail sales and consumer spending, emerging markets are way behind. And it's the delta between those three bars and the closing of that delta, that is the story, the rise of the emerging market consumer.

Kevin Carter: (08:19)
Now, let me come back to that because that's what is EMQQ is all about, and let me tell you something that's wrong with the way people have been investing in emerging markets. There's a lot of problems with indexing, as it turns out in emerging markets. And they're pretty big. And it took me about five minutes to figure out the first problem after we got back to San Francisco that day from Mountain View.

Kevin Carter: (08:56)
So we drove back to San Francisco, went up to our office. I walked over to the portfolio managers and I said, "The Google guys want to invest in China. Give me a list of all of the companies in the FXI." That's the iShares China ETF, which was the only China ETF at the time. And I assume that's what we would use for the Google guys. And I like to look under the hood with my Omaha head and see what exactly are the companies in this ETF.

Kevin Carter: (09:29)
And so I asked for the list, and Burton pulled me aside and he said, "Look, when you get the list, you're going to see that almost all of the companies are Chinese owned banks and oil companies." And I said, "Yeah. I've heard about that. It doesn't sound great."

Kevin Carter: (09:49)
And he said, "Well, let me give you an example of how these things work. You've got a Chinese manufacturing plant with 15,000 employees. It's been losing money for a decade, and it's about to run out of money again. But it has 15,000 employees. The management of the bank goes to ... or the management of the company goes to the bank, the state owned bank and says, 'Hey, we need more money.' Now, a normal banker would say, 'No, you can't have any more money. You didn't pay us back the last money.' But the state owned bank says, 'Well, if you run out of money, then these 15,000 people are going to be out in the streets protesting.' So it makes another low."

Kevin Carter: (10:26)
I got literally nauseous inside when I thought about that, because with my simple Omaha brain earnings equals value and the growth of earnings equals the growth of value. And if the people running these companies don't care about that, why would you invest in them at all? And in the case of the China ETF, it was over 80% state owned enterprises. And the consumer piece was like 8%. And it's not as bad in the broad indexes, but it's bad. About a third of the Vanguard fund and the iShares fund, the Schwab fund and all the other funds, not all but most of them, certainly the broad emerging markets funds, they've got about a third of their assets in these state owned enterprises, which are conflicted, they're inefficient.

Kevin Carter: (11:16)
Poor corporate governance is putting it quite mildly as corruption is everywhere. And you don't have to look very far. It's in the papers almost every day. The best example is in Brazil where the state owned oil giant Petrobras was being systematically looted by the people that ran the country, including the last two presidents who both went to jail for basically stealing your money if you're using a broad emerging markets approach.

Kevin Carter: (11:47)
And the problem's even bigger, if we count two other groups of companies that have a lot of the same problems. The Chaebol in Korea and the Russian oligarchs that took over the Soviet SOEs. If we counted those two, it's 50% of the index, then those two groups have lots of problems like people going to jail, like this guy, the Chairman of Samsung, who's been in jail, in and out of jail twice in the last six or seven years, once for bribing the president of the country who went to jail as well.

Kevin Carter: (12:22)
So this is why, if you think you're going to make any money buying these broad emerging market products like Bridgewater's five of their top 25 holdings, I think you're going to be disappointed. FXI, for 10 years, when I talked about that company, that product, I called it the worst investment product in the world.

Kevin Carter: (12:48)
You got to do emerging markets 3.0. You have to evolve and get more precise. And ... Can you go back? Thank you. You've got to get more precise. So in my first eight years on the China's scene, Burton and I launched a number of China ETFs with Guggenheim that now have the Invesco brand. But when I wasn't working with Guggenheim, I spent my time in New York City and Boston with family offices and foundations and endowments. And I watched how they evolved.

Kevin Carter: (13:25)
They saw they weren't making any money. They're increasing their allocations and they get more precise. Now, if you're Yale, you can set up Hillhouse. But most people aren't Yale. And so when people would ask me, "What's the best way to invest in emerging markets," I said, "That's easy. You buy econ, the emerging market consumer ETF," which I didn't make, but I knew it existed. And if you believed McKinsey and me, then all you really want is the consumer. Econ was the product to buy. 30 largest emerging market consumer stocks.

Kevin Carter: (14:08)
Now, one day, about eight years ago, seven and a half years ago, I woke up one morning and I thought, "What on earth have I done with my life?" I was this young, cocky Charlie Munger wannabe. And somehow I get mixed up with this guy at Princeton and I'm building Chinese index funds for God's sake. And I've obviously lost my way and I need to go back to my roots. And so I set up an investment partnership.

Kevin Carter: (14:35)
Once it was organized and my own money was in it, I invested in five stocks. And then I thought, "Well, I should see if any of my friends around town want to invest in this fund." And so I scheduled some meetings and the morning of those meetings, I made some slides to show the people I was going to be meeting with. These are the five companies I own was one of the slides.

Kevin Carter: (15:00)
And when I made that slide, the first three stocks I put on it were stocks that were in the emerging market consumer ETF. Those three stocks traded in Hong Kong were Want Want which is like the Nabisco of China, branded crackers. Second and third companies, Chinese sportswear makers, Li-Ning and Peak Sports. Can think of these as the Reebok and Converse of China. So those were the first three stocks, food, clothing, traditional consumption.

Kevin Carter: (15:28)
But then I had two other stocks that were clearly part of the emerging market consumer story, but the database didn't call them consumer. The database said they were technology companies. And that's why they were not in the emerging market consumer ETF. The first one traded on the New York Stock Exchange was WUBA. This is the Craigslist of China, which has since gone private. And the fifth and final company trades on the NASDAQ. It's called MercadoLibre, MELI, which is the amazon.com and PayPal of Brazil and Mexico and every other country in Central and South America.

Kevin Carter: (16:09)
And I looked at the slide after I made it, I thought, "Hmm, these first three companies, these consumer companies are great. They're growing at 15% or 20%. I think they have moats in form of brand equity." But then I looked at the two internet companies and they were growing at 100% literally and had incredible margins. WUBA had a 94% gross margin, which is by far the highest gross margin I've ever seen. And that's where I look for moats. And while the PE multiples were higher for those two stocks, when you divided the PE by the growth rate, it was lower and quite reasonable. And I just remember thinking my two best emerging market consumer stocks are not in the emerging market consumer ETF, because they're called technology companies.

Kevin Carter: (17:07)
Printed my slides, went to my meetings, got three checks, driving home. My phone rings, and it's a friend of mine with a three-year-old daughter. And she says, "What's the best emerging markets ETF for my daughter's college fund?" I started to tell her to buy the emerging market consumer ETF, but then a light bulb appeared above my head. And I said, "Wait a minute. The best emerging markets ETF for long-term investors doesn't exist." And I went straight back to my office and started to organize EMQQ.

Kevin Carter: (17:46)
Now, at the time I could see the incredible growth rates, I could see the incredible margins, and I can see that the valuations were reasonable. But what I didn't appreciate was what was causing this incredible growth. And, excuse me, it's quite clear to me now. It's quite clear to me now. It's really a combination of three things, three big things, three mega trends happening at the same time, and they are creating what I'm pretty sure, but not positive is the fastest growing sector in the world, ever.

Kevin Carter: (18:34)
What are those three mega trends? This is the first one. We've already talked about it. Billions of people moving on up and they want stuff, more and better food, more and better clothing, appliances, vacations, cars, Harvard. That's what they want. It's a big deal. McKinsey calls it the biggest growth story in the history of capitalism as we said.

Kevin Carter: (18:59)
Now, when I got that call, I answered it on my iPhone, which was sitting on my car seat next to me. So I had a smartphone eight years ago, but I hadn't had it very long, and I could already see how it was changing my family's consumption. Back then, my family went to this store four times a week, which is easy to do. It's three miles from our house. The roads are paved. There's free parking. But all of a sudden the trips to the store started to go down. And this guy started showing up at my house once a week, and then twice a week. Now my family doesn't go to Target. And this guy, Mark, is at my house five times a week, seven times a week, all the time.

Kevin Carter: (19:47)
So if you think about how the smartphone has changed us and you map it over to the emerging market consumer, the story gets quite big. It gets quite big because I had a computer for 20 years before I got my smartphone. Most of the people in the world have never had a computer before. All of these people are getting their first ever computer. It's not on their desk and it never will be. And in most cases, it doesn't have an Apple logo. We're talking about $50, $60, $80 Android-based smartphones made in China getting better every year, getting more affordable every year, and bringing the third mega trend with it. Something we also take for granted, something I've had for 25 years called the internet.

Kevin Carter: (20:47)
I got the internet in 1995 in the Marina District of San Francisco on the telephone line. Then it went onto the cable. Now it just shows up in my pocket. Well, most of the world has never been wired before. So all of those billions of people, in addition to getting their first ever computer, they're getting their first internet access. And because they don't have a bank account and there's no TV on their wall with a thousand channels and there's no Target store, they're leapfrogging what we think of as traditional consumption. And the result is this.

Kevin Carter: (21:36)
This is showing you the revenue growth for the emerging markets internet sector, the EMQQ index. And you can see that for the last 11 years, the average annual growth rate was 37% a year. Now that's hard to do for any single business, let alone an entire sector. I'm not 100% sure of anything in the world, but I've given this presentation to hundreds of professional investor groups and I offer $100,000 reward to anybody that can show me a sector that grew for 38% a year for a decade.

Kevin Carter: (22:21)
I could be wrong. I haven't gotten any emails from the people I offered the bet to. I've asked everybody I know who's smarter and older than me if they know a sector that had revenue growth of 38% a year. And so far, my inbox is empty. So I could be wrong. But I think this is not only the fastest growing sector in the world, but the fastest growing sector in the world ever.

Kevin Carter: (22:46)
Now, what comes with that fundamental growth? Value creation. You can see on this chart in yellow gold, how the internet sector has done over the last 12 years. And bouncing along the bottom in blue, the broad indexes, the biggest value trap in the world, the MSEI, emerging market index. Look how cheap it is. Half the price of the S&P. That's what they always say when they say they're pounding the table on emerging markets and recommending you buy the broad index.

Kevin Carter: (23:25)
So what are the companies? Alibaba, not the largest anymore. Our fourth largest holding, the most popular, at least best known of the emerging market internet companies. And let me point out one more important thing. When this company came public, it revealed another problem with the indexes, something that I also learned on my very first day when I got back from Mountain View 15 years ago. So once Burton gave me his warning about SOEs, and then they gave me the list of all the companies in the China ETF, I went through every company and I got to the bottom of the list. And I said, "Where's Baidu," because Baidu was not in the China ETF.

Kevin Carter: (24:18)
So we called the iShares people and said, "Where's Baidu?" They said, "Well, we don't own Baidu." I said, "I know. I can see. It's not on the list. Why don't you own Baidu?" "We don't consider it a Chinese company." And I was like, "What do you mean?" Said, "Well, it trades the United States?" I said, "It's the Google of China, and being the Google of anything seems like a good idea. And being the Google of the biggest country in the world seems like a really good idea." They said, "Well, we don't include it because it trades the United States."

Kevin Carter: (24:49)
Now it took the Alibaba IPO for this problem to finally get fixed. It bothered me a lot. Nobody else cared, certainly not consumer reports and USA Today who actually wrote about this problem, because you couldn't get Jack Ma off of your computer screen or your TV for a month. They're telling you how big a deal this is, and it's not going to be in the Vanguard fund. It took them three years to finally add Alibaba. So the indexes are terrible. Half of these companies are still not included in the index. And the reason is because they trade here, which is a shame. And the reason they trade here is because they're getting funded by our best investors. And they're listing on our exchanges with the highest listing standards, and investors are getting penalized for this.

Kevin Carter: (25:45)
Examples. You had Yahoo put a billion dollars into Alibaba, which turned into the only thing they really had at the end and a lot of money. And in my favorite example from the last couple of years, my heroes in Omaha, bought 5% of this Brazilian FinTech company, Stone, on its IPO, the first ever investment IPO investment I believe for Berkshire. Stone's not in your iShares shares fund, not in your Vanguard fund.

Kevin Carter: (26:14)
So corporate governance is bad in emerging markets. These companies on a relative basis to things like Petrobras, you'd have to say they have exceptional corporate governance. And meanwhile, a lot of them still get left out. You'll get Petrobras, the corrupt Brazilian oil giant twice in your Vanguard fund, your iShares fund, but you won't get Stone.

Kevin Carter: (26:39)
And now let's talk about Tencent. And let me say a few things. We'll wrap up the China part of the story and get into the next frontier, which is getting quite exciting. Tencent, most of you probably know this company. It's now the biggest market cap wise, Alibaba, Tencent neck and neck for the last decade. Plus, to make it simple, we've always told people Tencent's the Facebook of China. And it's true. The WeChat platform is the social network. It's how I talk to my Chinese friends and colleagues. So that's a fair assessment. But you can't call Facebook the Tencent of anything. Because in the case of Tencent and Alibaba, there is no equivalent.

Kevin Carter: (27:18)
And the reason is because the consumption infrastructure in emerging markets is by definition underdeveloped. And when I say consumption infrastructure, I mean bank accounts with debit cards, TVs on the wall, Target stores. Because those things don't exist, not only are the consumers leapfrogging, but Alibaba and Tencent are digitizing every consumer vertical.

Kevin Carter: (27:42)
These are not technology companies. These are all things consumer, companies operating in a smartphone world. They're in healthcare. Alibaba, JD, Tencent, all have healthcare businesses. Two of them are public. One's coming. Entertainment, Tencent's the Spotify of China, Tencent owned majority trades on the New York Stock Exchange. Food, groceries. This is the most amazing thing I've ever seen. This is a photo I took in Alibaba's Hema market. And I could spend an hour telling you how amazing it is, but it's the closest thing I've ever seen to the Jetsons. And it's also FinTech and the money. So everything's getting digitized by far, by far the biggest part of the story is FinTech.

Kevin Carter: (28:37)
And it starts with payments. You get the money on the phone. Anybody that's been to China knows every place you want to buy something, you'll find two QR codes, everywhere. And once you get the money on the phone, you're in business. And Alibaba and Tencent have the money on the phone now. And that has allowed them to get into investment products, insurance products, and to ... that is [inaudible 00:29:05] financial ... the banking and credit products. We'll come back to that. But all things are getting digitized, FinTech and the money especially, and it's quite a paradox. You would think someone like me, a FinTech entrepreneur in San Francisco, that I would be on the cutting edge and zap my phone to buy everything. Not me. Africa. We'll talk more about FinTech.

Kevin Carter: (29:29)
Now, there's lots of other Chinese companies. These are some of the bigger ones, Pinduoduo, an amazing company, and a great stock as well, jd.com, Baidu, Meituan. This has been largely China's story so far. But there's something else really big happening, and we're pretty excited about it. So let me tell you what is happening outside of the China story.

Kevin Carter: (29:57)
China's big. It's our biggest weight, 65%. That's for good reason. It's by far the biggest e-commerce market in the world. You can call it emerging market, but in the internet world it's developed and it's big. In fact, it is four times the size of the other 45 emerging and frontier markets on an e-commerce basis.

Kevin Carter: (30:25)
So it's dominated our weights for a long time. But, the other part's starting to get pretty exciting. You can see here that same revenue chart, the blue being the China portion, the gold being the non-China portion. You can see the China piece crossed $100 billion seven years ago. You can see the non-China piece crossed $100 billion today, basically.

Kevin Carter: (30:53)
So outside China, the story's getting hot. This has been the company that showed us this, showed us how big the FinTech part of the story was, the Amazon and the PayPal of Brazil and all of South America, not in the indexes. Sea Limited might be the best performing stock in the world for the last several years. Trades here, headquartered in Singapore. This is a mashup of gaming, e-commerce, FinTech.

Kevin Carter: (31:26)
Yandex, the Uber of Russia or the Google of Russia rather is also the Uber ... The Google of Russia is also the Uber of Russia. Now that's Yandex, not in your index. You'll get the oligarchs. Africa. Nigeria has got a company trading on the New York Stock Exchange, JMIA. E-commerce leader in several Sub-Saharan African countries.

Kevin Carter: (31:51)
Poland has its own Amazon, largest company now in the Warsaw Exchange. Kazakhstan has a super app trading in London. We didn't buy this stock after it went public because they didn't put Kazakhstan on the list of eligible countries when I made the fund. It didn't occur to me that Kazakhstan would have its own super app publicly traded.

Kevin Carter: (32:17)
Uruguay, this company is amazing, dLocal. Check it out. Hepsiburada, Turkey. Everything is here. Indonesia. These are all recent. And it's a big, big deal. The rest of the world's getting the internet and lives are changing. And this company marked a pretty big inflection point. This is an Indian IPO that happened in the last several weeks, Zomato. This is a milestone.

Kevin Carter: (32:51)
There are now more non-Chinese companies in the internet space than Chinese, and they've doubled in the last 12 months, doubled, 30 to 60, and lots more coming. We could have 25 India internet IPOs in the next 18 months. Flipkart's coming, e-commerce leader controlled by Walmart, Tencent, and investors. One of my favorites, my heroes again, FinTech leader, Alibaba, largest shareholder, Paytm, the Indian payments leader in the papers this morning. Southeast Asia has got so much going on.

Kevin Carter: (33:39)
This is one of my favorites. This is a new merger, a mashup of two companies, Tokopedia, the Amazon of Indonesia is hitching up with the Uber of Indonesia, Gojek. They're both the Venmo of Indonesia. This company will come public. You'll hear about it, owned partially by Tencent and Alibaba and Google. Biggest online bank in the world, Brazil, Tencent, and again, Omaha, early ... Well, Tencent, an early investor. Warren Buffett and his guys just invested two months ago. This company is coming. I love this company, Nubank out of Brazil.

Kevin Carter: (34:22)
So this is a big deal. And there's lots of awesome elements as you read and see how these people's lives are changing. They're getting information for the first time. They're getting access to stuff for the first time. And it's a big deal.

Kevin Carter: (34:42)
So in summary, this is where the growth is. This is where the growth is in the world. And it's certainly where the growth is in emerging markets as these three mega trends happen at the same time, billions of people getting a computer and the internet, leapfrogging. Important side benefits in a part of the world where getting your money stolen is your biggest problem? I think you can rest a little more comfortably with these companies and you get exposure to what's going on beyond China. So it's still pretty early.

Kevin Carter: (35:24)
Now, we have a crisis right now. The Chinese word for crisis is a combination of two symbols, danger and opportunity. I think this is an opportunity. We've been crushed since February, down almost 40%. Most of that, a result of China. And July wasn't a very fun month for us, as you might imagine. I'm not going to go deep into the stuff since I've spent the last six weeks talking about China, trying to calm people down. Everyone's scared. Everybody's been scared of China for the 16 years I've been involved and the main thing I hear is fear. The Chinese government, they're communists, they're going to steal all my money. And it finally happened, not in this case, but in this one.

Kevin Carter: (36:20)
Now, this is the online tutoring crack down that freaked people out in a major way. I think it was ... Well, I don't think it's going to work what they're doing, but they had to do something with the online education and the tutoring frenzy in China. But I didn't think they'd actually make them go non-profit, but they did. And I think it's unfortunate, at least for the way people think of China. I don't think it was the wrong thing to do by the Chinese government, but it sure freaked out US investors, because finally the Chinese government did steal your money if you owned TAL or EDU. Tiananmen Square moment? Maybe. Stephen Rote's even getting scared.

Kevin Carter: (37:10)
You got to know what Kathy's doing. She sold it all. Ironic. Ironic. The front page of the New York Times has an article about Joe Biden's team coming for the FAANG stocks that are making new highs. The Chinese government's involved? Sell. Run. I don't think it means all that much negatively when I look at the fundamentals of each of the different regulatory actions starting with the Ant Group. Sure helps valuations. Easy to pound the table when blood is in the streets.

Kevin Carter: (37:48)
I like the way Ray Dalio thinks about China. He articulates what I think is a more appropriate way to think about China for investors. But I'm not going to go into all the details of the Chinese government. I'm not here to do that. But they did tell me when I was young, you're supposed to buy fear. And on the 27th of July, I had never seen so much fear about China coming to steal your money.

Kevin Carter: (38:19)
So they told me to buy fear, and that's what I was doing on the 27th of July. Could get more fearful. Maybe they will steal more people's money, but I don't think so. I think they're all in favor of capitalism. Valuations are good right now. The peg ratio about 0.75, maybe 0.8, about half the peg of the US tech leaders, a third, the peg of the S&P 500.

Kevin Carter: (38:50)
So I don't make short-term stock market predictions, but I'm pretty confident if you've got three years or five years or seven years, you're going to do very well in the EMQQ and its companies. It's been the right way to go since we made it. When my friend asked me what was the best emerging markets ETF for long-term investors, even after a 40% decline. And I think, if we come back here five, six, seven years from now, I'm pretty sure it will be number one again, or maybe number two out of everything.

Kevin Carter: (39:38)
And the reason I think we might be number two is because there's something new that we are putting together that we're pretty excited about that I think ... I think it's going to be close for long-term investors, but we have a new thing coming, a new index that'll be available sometime soon. It owns all of the same companies as EMQQ, but it doesn't own China. So the next frontier, all of the non-Chinese internet companies are going to have their own vehicle for investors, and I think it's going to do pretty darn well too. And actually, I think investors should be excited about it and they should be excited because of two things, of two statistics.

Kevin Carter: (40:36)
You can see here, again, in purple that these companies, the non-Chinese companies have just passed $100 billion basically today. That's what the Chinese companies did seven years ago. There's four times as many people in this next frontier. Four times as many people. And the e-commerce penetration is about a quarter or a fifth of China.

Kevin Carter: (41:20)
So thank you for coming. That's all.

Private Market Value Creation & the Road to Exit | #SALTNY

Private Market Value Creation & the Road to Exit with Sanjay Patel, Chairman International & Senior Partner of Private Equity, Apollo. David Lebovitz, Executive Director, J.P. Morgan Asset Management.

Moderated by Bailey Mccann, Senior News Editor, Opalesque.

PRESENTED BY

 

Powered by RedCircle

 

SPEAKERS

Headshot - Patel, Sanjay - Cropped.jpeg

Sanjay Patel

Chairman International & Senior Partner of Private Equity

Apollo Management

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David Lebovitz

Executive Director

J.P. Morgan Asset Management

 

MODERATOR

Bailey Mccann.jpeg

Bailey McCann

Senior News Editor

Opalesque

 

TIMESTAMPS

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Bailey McCann: (00:07)
Okay. I think we can get started. My name's Bailey McCann. I'm the senior editor at Opalesque, and we are here to talk about private market value creation, and the road to exit. We've got Sanjay and David here, and you guys can introduce yourselves, and then we'll get into the questions.

Sanjay Patel: (00:24)
Sure. Thanks, Bailey. Great to be here. So I'm Sanjay Patel. I'm a senior partner and chairman of our international business at Apollo Management, thirty-fourth here in the private equity credit old space of my career in London, half my career, and probably in New York, pretty much invested across every asset class in the industry. So, excited to be here.

David Lebovitz: (00:47)
David Lebovitz. I don't have 34, 35 years of experience, clearly. But I work at JP Morgan, within the asset management business, and I do macroeconomic and asset allocation research. So very much focused on the way the world looks from 20,000 feet, and increasingly, alternatives are becoming part of the solution set that our clients are embracing, to try to realize their portfolio outcomes. Glad to be here, and looking forward to the conversation.

Bailey McCann: (01:13)
Great. Thanks, guys. Let's just get started with kind of a broad question, in terms of how you're thinking around value creation right now. What are the interesting themes or opportunities that you're seeing out there?

Sanjay Patel: (01:27)
Maybe I'll kick it off? Obviously, it's a broad, broad question, maybe addressed ... Obviously at Apollo, we do private equity, credit, and real assets, but on the private equity side, some observations.

Sanjay Patel: (01:41)
I mean, you think about when we think about value creation in our business, you talk about, can you create value on the buy? How do you create value when you own an asset, and how do you create value on the exit?

Sanjay Patel: (01:54)
That's the life cycle of private equity. It's interesting, I would say, having lived in the industry for decades. Valuation's at an all time high.

Sanjay Patel: (02:06)
However, I think we still, at Apollo, from our vantage point, there are lots of ways, roads to success, in private equity. We still think creating value at the buy is an incredibly important component of private equity investing. We're not a traditional growth capital investor.

Sanjay Patel: (02:26)
Today, there's tons of companies that you can still do that. We just announced a very big deal with Yahoo, buying from Verizon. So here was, what, a classic Apollo deal, a corporate carveout. Verizon wanted to get rid of assets, a complex set of assets.

Sanjay Patel: (02:45)
We were the buyer for the whole package. There's some good assets and there's some complicated assets, and assets that lose money, assets that make money, but it's figuring it all out, and creating a holistic solution. So we think that can be a very interesting opportunity.

Sanjay Patel: (02:59)
On the creation during the life cycle, I would say, just listening to Dan Loeb this morning, he mentioned this concept of, 30 years ago, we were creating value in a certain way.

Sanjay Patel: (03:10)
30 years into the industry's development, I'd say the institutionalization of value creation has become phenomenal, so our ability to take a company, and drive value in every aspect of it. We have at Apollo, a team now called the Apollo Portfolio Performance Solutions Group, which is a group ... We have data scientists, HR, ESG, purchasing, everything to drive costs down, ride revenue up, think about technology.

Sanjay Patel: (03:46)
Getting the data from our portfolio companies, which we own a lot of throughout the world, every week, is enormously valuable to us as an investor, for both those companies and all the companies. So there's a constant life cycle, and everyone has done it. All the other big firms do it.

Sanjay Patel: (04:04)
I think we have institutionalized it much more in the last five years than in the last 15 years before that. I think that will continue. So we're, I think, better owners of companies as an industry than we were 20 or 30 years ago, and you create value.

Sanjay Patel: (04:18)
Then finally, on the exit, and I think we'll talk a little bit more about this, you have to be, even, you're a micro investor in private equity, you're buying companies, but you have to be very cognizant today on the macro. What I mean by that is, you're managing a fund.

Sanjay Patel: (04:36)
You've got to think about exits constantly, the public markets and the private markets, and we're constantly thinking about that, because the life cycle of the public markets and the macro influences that enormously, more so than it did 20 or 30 years ago. We've become, I think, better sellers over the last decade that I've been in Apollo.

David Lebovitz: (05:01)
I would agree with a lot of that. I think the one thing you said that really struck me, and I would agree with, is the data side of things. There's so much more insight into what's happening in the day to day. You can see things with a higher frequency, you can reach out and talk, to not just clients and consumers, but also experts within the industry in which you're investing.

David Lebovitz: (05:21)
So we see it from a macro research perspective, we see it from more of a micro perspective, when we look at the portfolio companies in the funds. The ability to get a better reading of the pulse is how I would think about it. I think it is a real source of alpha, and will continue to be a source of alpha, going forward.

David Lebovitz: (05:40)
I think, something else that's very interesting, you mentioned the macro, and this is really a function of what happened during the pandemic. But in the United States, you saw applications for small businesses just shoot through the roof, right? So you saw a huge opportunity set be created.

David Lebovitz: (05:55)
What we're finding now is that those companies are getting to a point where they need funding. So I think what's also really interesting is that the pandemic, to your point, again, on the macro, created this sea change within the economy broadly, very much moving away from large corporate, the things that have worked well for the better part of the past decades, and really seeing tremendous growth in those new stage companies.

David Lebovitz: (06:19)
It's about looking at that opportunity set, understanding what you can do with data to create that operational leverage. Then, to your point on the exit, there's a chart in a publication that we produce, called The Guide to Alternatives, that overlays the share of PE deals in the software sector, with investment in software, as represented by the national accounts, right?

David Lebovitz: (06:38)
Companies are investing more in technology, and that has played a key role in one's ability to exit at a reasonable price. So I would agree with a lot of what you said on the private equity side.

David Lebovitz: (06:48)
I think the private credit side becomes a little bit ... When I think about value creation in private credit, I tend to move more towards the distressed area, and providing interesting financing solutions to businesses that have fallen on tough times.

David Lebovitz: (07:02)
I struggle to see how there's tremendous value creation in something like direct lending. But regardless of which lever you're pulling, whether it's the equity lever or the credit lever, again, I think that the data is really what's differentiating that marketplace today, relative to even where we were during the prior cycle, is very much are very much our view.

Sanjay Patel: (07:22)
Can I just comment maybe on the private credit side? I don't disagree with David.

Sanjay Patel: (07:26)
I think, obviously, there's, well, we can talk more about this. Credit, we certainly are from today, at 460 billion, we have 300-plus billion, 330 billion of yield credit on 30 billion of hybrid capital, that we call hybrid capital, and 90 billion of opportunities to capital.

Sanjay Patel: (07:48)
Mark Rowan, our new CEO, would say that our yield business is going to grow significantly, because the demand for yield, and Dave and I were talking about it, it's all about the demand for yield. So private equity is an opportunity business.

Sanjay Patel: (08:02)
There are not that many 25% return opportunities, but if you look at the five to 12% yield business, that is an engine that is going to drive ahead with the demand on the investor side. And then, the creation on the origination, for us, becomes a very, very important question, because we have to originate a lot of private credit.

Sanjay Patel: (08:24)
I think the alpha there is, for us, certainly, I think you'll see us, as the banks' interest in really underwriting risk has gone down over the last decades, we are becoming originators of that risk globally. You're going to see us originate significant scale, private credit throughout the world, and we've done it.

Sanjay Patel: (08:52)
That means some landmark transactions over the last ... It's over COVID actually, for Hertz, for ADNOC, for big, big corporate institutions, that weren't the purview of alternative players, but you're going to see us.

Sanjay Patel: (09:07)
What we do, and I think the idea is the creation of 300 to 500 basis points of alpha, over public credit risk, the way to do it is get, be able to deliver in scale, create structures that are, there may be complexity. It's a structural question, it's a capital solution question. So I think you're going to see all platforms over the next decade.

Sanjay Patel: (09:33)
It's just pretty exciting, actually, as I think about it, 30 years into my career. I think the growth for us as an industry is fantastic for the next decades, with rates being very low, but a big chunk of that will come in the form of the creation of these very large credit solutions to companies all over the world.

Sanjay Patel: (09:54)
It's not just the US. I think you're going to see some very interesting things in Europe and in Asia executive, so that's one other thing, I think. And on there, look, there's demand, and there's a lot of competition and I'm sure we'll find competition, but at all points, as we always add. But I think being creative and providing a capital solution is critical.

David Lebovitz: (10:14)
Exactly, right.

Bailey McCann: (10:16)
To your point about the growth origination, and you talked about institutionalization, as well, in your portfolio performance group, are those areas where you feel like are opportunities for innovation, in terms of the capital solutions that you're offering to clients, and working with maybe more complex deals, like the Yahoo deal? Or how do you see that, going forward?

Sanjay Patel: (10:37)
I think, I think it's all about, I do think innovation is a big chunk of it. So we have upped the ante on product innovation, generally.

Sanjay Patel: (10:48)
I think we have focused on really how we can create these large scale credit opportunities, and we're going to continue to think about it. We have been purchases as a firm of origination platforms.

Sanjay Patel: (11:03)
What I mean by that is, our credit franchise has now expanded dramatically. So we have all aircraft, trade, equipment, finance. Our balance sheet for credit is backed by insurance assets on insurance companies. And the demand for those companies is typically a yield.

Sanjay Patel: (11:25)
A lot of it's investment grade, actually, so it's not just private credit to private credit. But I think the way to create that is to actually own origination. So you're going to see us focused on buying, building origination, but also buying it.

Sanjay Patel: (11:43)
So buying it, buying companies that may not have scale that need balance sheet. And we can provide that balance sheet pretty effectively.

David Lebovitz: (11:51)
I mean, I would agree with a lot of that. I also think, what's interesting, taking a slightly different view of the question in terms of creating these solutions, is rethinking what the end investor in these products is actually going to look like.

David Lebovitz: (12:04)
You mentioned insurance companies. I think we all spend a lot of time with big institutional investors, which, if you show them anything that has yield and lack of equity correlation, they want to gobble it up like Thanksgiving dinner. I mean, that's the Holy Grail in the current environment.

David Lebovitz: (12:19)
What's so interesting to me is that as you build platforms like that, and as you do more and more of the origination in-house, you can then go in and tap into another client base. You think about the retail investor, who very much has the same needs as the institutional investor. The bond market offers you one of two things. It either offers you protection without income, or income without protection.

David Lebovitz: (12:39)
When you have that scale, right, the ability to deliver solutions to a client segment that has historically not been able to access these types of investment strategies, arguably create somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy, where then, folks like yourselves and ourselves can continue to do what we do. We can do it at an increasingly large scale, because we're able to tap into areas of the marketplace that historically have been, I don't want to say off limits, but far harder to reach.

David Lebovitz: (13:04)
This is one of the instances where yes, over time, the institutionalization of the private credit space will put downward pressure on the yields that a lot of the yields that these instruments provide. But arguably, the broadening of the access I would argue, is a good thing from an investment solution perspective.

Sanjay Patel: (13:21)
Agreed.

Bailey McCann: (13:23)
You mentioned, I mean, there's some issues in this new environment, investors are looking for yield, they're looking for return anywhere they can find it. They're not getting it in the fixed income market broadly, probably not going to get it for awhile.

Bailey McCann: (13:36)
But you've also said you have some questions about value creation, and direct lending, and some other aspects of private credit. I mean, maybe we can just talk about where you see some of the risks right now, and maybe some of the bigger opportunistic themes for investors that are trying to thread that needle, and find opportunities.

David Lebovitz: (13:55)
Absolutely. My point wasn't that it's impossible to create value in private credit, but rather, the private equity lever is an easier one to an easier one to pull. But you mentioned transportation. I think about core real assets in general, real estate, infrastructure, shipping, aircraft, so on and so forth.

David Lebovitz: (14:12)
I mean, these are things that people are very comfortable with, because you can reach out and touch it. They provide creditlike streams of income, right on par with the high yield market, and they offer it with low to no correlation to equities.

David Lebovitz: (14:26)
Again, the vehicles that are becoming available, the closed end REITs, and various things like that, are allowing us to broaden our investor base in a way that historically has not been the case. Not only does it feel good to help people realize their investment goals by providing these types of solutions, but I actually think that there's more to it.

David Lebovitz: (14:47)
And I'll say the word that I think is on everybody's mind, I mean, inflation. We, like everybody else, think inflation's going to be transitory. We, like everybody else, are a little bit gun shy of assigning a time horizon to what transitory exactly means.

David Lebovitz: (15:02)
But if you're sitting in investment grade, if you're sitting in high yield, you're not going to have inflation protection. And arguably, if you're buying tips, you're buying a negative yielding instrument with a very long duration. To the extent that we're able to continue to access these opportunities, we think that it not only provides that income, it not only provides that diversification, but it provides that inflation protection as well.

David Lebovitz: (15:25)
The last point I'll make, because I think that this comes back to the issue of value creation, a market like commercial real estate, the old adage, "Retail is dead, retail is dead." Retail's not dead.

David Lebovitz: (15:37)
Retail has just changed, right? It's all about tenant mix. When we think about the office space, which feels like the next frontier for value creation within commercial real estate, I've been of the view for a very long time that, I mean, look, the United States, 80% of the jobs in this country are in services. And if you're a services business, the most valuable capital you have is your human capital.

David Lebovitz: (15:58)
So we need to rethink the office from a place where I go to tap away in Excel for 60 hours a week, to a place where I go to collaborate with my colleagues to generate better ideas and better outcomes for our clients. I think that again, the pandemic has affected certain parts of the economy more significantly than others.

David Lebovitz: (16:18)
Structurally, I still think this is a 2% growth story. I think that inflation is going to remain subdued over the longer term, and I'll be surprised if the Fed ever gets rates up to, to a meaningful level, but that doesn't mean that there's not opportunity. It's more about understanding where to look, and I think that that is what is so interesting about where we are today.

David Lebovitz: (16:39)
We know what worked in 2020. We had a glimpse of what could work in 2021, before things started going sideways over the summer, during the spread of Delta. So I think it's about looking through those more sickly exposed industries and sectors, and figuring out the difference between companies and assets that have seen temporary disruption, versus permanent demand destruction.

David Lebovitz: (17:03)
Obviously, we prefer the former to the latter. But it's very much an exercise of combing through the rubble in the aftermath of what's happened over the past 18 months, and trying to identify those opportunities where again, back to your first question, where we're able to create significant value.

Sanjay Patel: (17:18)
Yeah, I would say it's interesting. I mean, fixed income, it just hard to imagine, why you want to own fixed income at this point in the cycle, any institutional investor. But the opportunities in yield, I mean, real estate, to David's point, I think is very interesting.

Sanjay Patel: (17:38)
Blackstone, one of our biggest competitors, the BREIT that they've created, it's a pretty, pretty unbelievable product. It's got scale. Their underwriting is very good. They're careful, et cetera. That's a yield product return of capital.

Sanjay Patel: (17:55)
So you can kind of look at the landscape and say, "There's plenty of ways to create alpha." [inaudible 00:18:00], I think, in particular is a very, very interesting one, but I hop back.

Sanjay Patel: (18:08)
We bought an equipment financing business in the UK a couple of years ago in our insurance business, because it was a very interesting. It was a niche-y business that needed, he just ran out of capital, the seller, and we bought his origination platform. And that's a nice, low, double-digit yield business, et cetera.

Sanjay Patel: (18:28)
I think there's plenty of opportunities at the coalface to create really interesting yield throughout the world. I think you have to find it. I think it's not obvious, in some cases, and in other cases, I think you've got to create it. To me, it's about investing with folks who you think are creative in these areas, and finding the best managers.

Bailey McCann: (18:54)
Lot's talk about another issue that seems to come up around the value creation question a lot, which is ESG. There's questions now around climate issues that we've seen spring up, sustainability, people are focused on different issues around governance and diversity. Maybe you can talk us through how you incorporate those factors into your strategy, and in a way that obviously creates value for the theme, but is meaningful for investors, too.

Sanjay Patel: (19:22)
Maybe I'll start off. ESG is obviously the topic de jure, and the way we think about it is, and we have been thinking about it, probably for the last decade, and probably how, I think, our twelfth DSG report that we did.

Sanjay Patel: (19:40)
But since we control companies, our view is that it starts at the portfolio company level for us as an investor. Because the themes that ESG reflects, whether it be the environmental footprint of your businesses, your social impact, your governance, your DEI focus, your board focus, so what we've done is incorporate that at the portfolio company level, the day we own the company. Every portfolio company, we have metrics.

Sanjay Patel: (20:16)
The teams that are doing the deals, we're thinking about ... Previously, you think about EBITDA and KPIs. So it becomes part of your KPI landscape, as an owner of the business. Because ultimately, the reason it's all important, A, it's important to do.

Sanjay Patel: (20:36)
Every company should be an impact company. So people are raising impact funds and the like, but I think the truth is, shouldn't every company have a vision of how they are impacting or changing society? So I think you're going to do it, because ultimately, on the exit, if you're exiting the public markets, and David, comment on this, people are going to focus on that as a metric.

Sanjay Patel: (20:58)
What have you done? The ones that have done better will get, command on better premium prices and valuations over time. It's self-fulfilling if you don't do it.

Sanjay Patel: (21:08)
For us, it's very much quarter, kind of at the opco level, because we can control these companies, and drive change at the front end. Some companies we buy are very good at it, and have already done some, and some companies have not done anything. So it's incumbent upon us as managers and owners of these businesses to do it.

David Lebovitz: (21:26)
I think that's the beauty of private investments and alternatives more broadly, when it comes to the ESG conversation.

Sanjay Patel: (21:33)
Yup.

David Lebovitz: (21:33)
Because for years, I would sit in rooms, and people would say "ESG," and I'd say, "What do you mean by that?" And they'd get this look on their face, like "Ooh, am I going to give them the MSEI definition? Am I going to give them the internal definition," right?

David Lebovitz: (21:44)
I think what's interesting is, and a lot of this is coming from Europe, we're finally beginning to understand a framework for thinking about ESG investing, in both a qualitative and a quantitative way. And a lot of this is a policy response to the fact that people just care more about the environment.

David Lebovitz: (22:04)
Whether it's looking at renewable energy assets, whether it's making real estate properties more environmentally friendly, I completely agree with your point, that it's so much easier to pull the lever at the portfolio company level or the individual asset level, as opposed to what we saw in 2020, when everybody wanted to go in and buy the clean energy ETF, because they felt like they were doing the right thing. Then it got way overextended, and since has come back in.

David Lebovitz: (22:29)
I think what's going to be interesting to me about ESG, going forward, is the way that the S and the G make their way into the conversation. I think that there's still an overwhelming focus on the environmental aspect of all of this, because again, it's very easy to walk outside and say, "Hey this is, the Hudson River looks pretty nice from up here. I don't really want to mess that up."

David Lebovitz: (22:53)
I go back to my days, right out of undergrad, where I did manage your research and portfolio construction. To us, the G was the most important thing.

Sanjay Patel: (23:02)
Yup.

David Lebovitz: (23:02)
I mean, if you got the governance angle right, you felt a lot more comfortable with the investment, than if you were a little bit wishy-washy on them. So I think governance is really going to become increasingly important. That's where we're spending a lot of time focusing.

David Lebovitz: (23:17)
And it spans the gambit, right? It's everything from internal audit, better risk control, independent boards, things of that nature, to other things, having the right policies in place. This is where it starts to bleed into the S a little bit, but having the right policies in place.

David Lebovitz: (23:32)
I mean, something that's struck me as somebody who's worked at a big bank for more than a decade is, the renewed focus on the mental health of individuals. I think that that is going to be a tremendous theme going forward. Because what the pandemic showed us was that taking care of your people with free snacks isn't always enough, right? Some people need more help.

David Lebovitz: (23:53)
So it's about breaking down those barriers, and being comfortable having these conversations, that I think is really going to drive the evolution of how ESG is implemented at the portfolio level. Not just over the course of the next few years, but over the course of a longer term. So it's not going away, is the bottom line, as we've seen out of, out of the Eurozone.

Bailey McCann: (24:12)
Well, and to your point about the Eurozone, and they're doing a lot of different things in terms of governance, the taxonomy and different policies. There are some discussions in the US about enhanced disclosures for companies. Does that create best practices?

Bailey McCann: (24:24)
Does that help the process, in terms of at least getting everybody to start collecting the same types of data? Or what else can we be thinking about, to carry that forward?

David Lebovitz: (24:34)
I mean, my thought there is that regulation doesn't usually create best practices. I think that those tend to be more organically driven. But again, it gives us rules of the road. It gives us a more concrete framework for thinking about this than we've had historically.

David Lebovitz: (24:52)
You and I were chatting about crypto before we came up here, and the potential for regulation. And I would go as far as to say that regulation in that space could arguably be a good, a good thing, right?

David Lebovitz: (25:02)
We have a lot of institutional investors that continue to sit on the sidelines, with respect to all of these things broadly, because they just want to understand the way the game is going to be played. As soon as you can give a clear explanation of, "These are the rules of the road," I think you'll see engagement at a level that we've only really scratched the surface of, up until

Sanjay Patel: (25:22)
Yeah. Having lived in Europe for 15 years. I mean, it's interesting, because having invested there for a long time, the regulatory overlays in Europe have always been very different, and much more stringent, and you have healthy debates about it.

Sanjay Patel: (25:36)
As we all know, the capital markets never developed to the same extent as it did in the US. The Europe is a much heavier bank market. They've had regulations around private equity, et cetera, et cetera. It's a less liquid environment. That's fundamentally true. Europe is more inefficient.

Sanjay Patel: (25:58)
But I think on things like ESG, and I think, increasingly on technology, I think they're ahead of the US and there are some aspects to what they're doing, that I think the US ... I mean, so the pension funds in Europe were always ... They asked the questions earlier, and I think certainly, our institutional investors now are asking those questions at every meeting. but that was already done in Europe.

Sanjay Patel: (26:24)
So I'm not a big fan of regulation in many respects, maybe yes for crypto, but I'd say there's an element, that you have to force it to some extent. But you can debate it heavily.

Bailey McCann: (26:42)
For sure. So as we get near the interior, let's talk about the exit environment. There have been a variety of exit strategies that people have been using lately, and are more focused on SPACs, direct listings, different things around the IPO market, different things around sponsor to sponsor deals.

Bailey McCann: (26:58)
We've already seen this bag market kind of started to fade into the background. Going forward, what is the exit environment look like to you? What are some of the things that you're watching out for right now?

Sanjay Patel: (27:09)
Maybe I'll start off. I'm the global head of SPACw at Apollo. Actually, it's interesting, that was one of my new roles.

Sanjay Patel: (27:21)
We had sold a number of our portfolio companies over the years as SPACs, and gotten comfortable with it. Obviously, they've been around. A good friend of mine, Martin Franklin's, [inaudible 00:27:32] SPACs 20 years ago, and been successful.

Sanjay Patel: (27:35)
So we observed it, as an owner of assets, and exiting into that market. A couple of years ago, we said, "Actually, it could be a great way for us, certainly for us as a firm, to look at the growth and disruption that's going on."

Sanjay Patel: (27:52)
We haven't talked about growth, the risks of the positive aspects of disruption, and the risks of all of the valuation, but the SPAC product was an interesting way for us to drive the business further into looking at higher growth companies. That's why we're doing it, and we have six SPACs.

Sanjay Patel: (28:12)
We always knew when we entered the market, like other markets, the BDC market, the REIT market, too many people go in. There's a period of dislocation, there's a shakeout, and then it kind of ends up in it.

Sanjay Patel: (28:25)
Unfortunately, like everything else shows how much capital there is in the world, and demand for equity risk, as well. It literally went, skyrocketed up, obviously, through to 2020, which has created this big issue. We all knew it was going to happen, and it's happened. So where do we go from here?

Sanjay Patel: (28:43)
We still think it's a product that she had to stay. We think it's going to institutionalize. When valuations are sensible, and you got real money investors at the front end, a number of the players that have been stuck, got stuck because their capital is stock in the deals.

Sanjay Patel: (29:02)
Once that all cycles through, there will be a landscape that evolves out of this where the product, I think, stays, because I think it's an interesting product. You can debate, yes, democratization of equities, and people barely own high growth companies in an earlier stage, and the pluses and minuses of that, but it will stay.

Sanjay Patel: (29:20)
We're using it as a tool. So I think on the exit, to your point is, I think the exit environment is as good as it gets. You've got low rates, strategics looking for acquisitions, cost of capital very low.

Sanjay Patel: (29:36)
You got the IPO markets, so IPO is SPAC, strategic. Look, it's a phenomenal time to sell, and that's, every day we wake up, coming back to the comment I made on MACRA. We say, "Look, we want to, obviously, we'll continue to invest our funds, but we're selling as much as we can." It's a great environment.

David Lebovitz: (29:54)
No, I mean, I would agree with you that this is arguably as good as it gets, when you find yourself in a Goldilocks environment, where the Fed still seems kind of spooked at their own shadow.

David Lebovitz: (30:03)
The amount that they've done, I mean, I certainly was caught by surprise during the back half of last year, at the ability of both deal flow and exit activity to just come roaring back. The speed with which things moved last year is really what struck me.

David Lebovitz: (30:17)
I remember sitting there back in March and April, and saying, "Eh, equity market high by the end of the year? Ooh, probably not, and where were we in the fall?"

David Lebovitz: (30:26)
So the SPAC thing has been interesting. I think it's arguably good, to your point, that some of the retail wind has come out of those sails when it was trading above. When you had SPACs trading above trust, that was a little bit of a yellow flashing light, from where we sit.

David Lebovitz: (30:40)
Obviously, the IPO market, given what the Fed did to the equity market more broadly, in terms of providing support and elevating valuations, has been the primary exit for a lot of investors. But I do think that you're seeing more on the corporate acquisition side, and you're seeing more and more add on activity, carve-out activity, which I think is a good and interesting indicator of where we are in the cycle, people moving away from true, organic CapEx-driven opportunities to, "Hey, that's a proven business model, and we think that that could be additive to our bottom line. So let's bolt it on here."

David Lebovitz: (31:16)
The interesting space to watch for me, going forward, is going to be the sponsor-to-sponsor market. I do wonder, in my heart of hearts ... You're having a market where everybody's always looking for a deal.

David Lebovitz: (31:29)
That definitely caused some problems in 2020, and into the beginning of 2021, where the buyers didn't like the price that the seller was quoting, and the seller didn't like the price that the buyer was quoting. As a share of overall exits, you saw that move well below its long run average.

David Lebovitz: (31:44)
But I would come back to something that you said earlier, which is, "This is a world of washing capital. And this is a world where people are comfortable with what the monetary authorities are doing."

David Lebovitz: (31:57)
Fiscal, I think, is what's going to define this coming cycle. When you have monetary and fiscal working in concert, I do think that it's going to create a very robust environment, from a macro economic perspective, which, by my lights, could breathe life back into that sponsor-to-sponsor market. Because again, the capital isn't the issue, right?

Sanjay Patel: (32:19)
Yeah.

David Lebovitz: (32:19)
It's valuation. As we move further away from the pandemic, and as we see things more reflective of their long term value, that to me is when that part of the exit space will really end up coming back into Vogue.

Sanjay Patel: (32:32)
Yeah, I think, the other themes ... I mean, I think the sponsor-to-sponsor business, and in Europe, it's actually a much bigger than it is in the US, and always has been, because the number of primary deals is much fewer.

Sanjay Patel: (32:42)
But we've looked at it, and obviously, we don't sponsor deals, and we made money. I think it's very focused on the individual company. So multiple owners can create value out of those companies.

Sanjay Patel: (32:59)
So, to the question of, how do you do it? The continuation market is a very interesting development, which is, we own a company. We've known it for seven, eight, nine, five to 10 years, and we still think there's value.

Sanjay Patel: (33:14)
Will LPs have kind of exceeded to say, "Yeah, maybe moving these companies on from fund to fund, or vehicle to vehicle is okay." Because ultimately, they've seen value creation at every cycle.

Sanjay Patel: (33:28)
That's a whole new theme coming back, which was, shopping will be a big theme going forward, as well. But it's all of which to say is, I think, the demand and the competition for assets continues, and will do.

Bailey McCann: (33:45)
Okay, well, we have one minute left. So I think we will leave it there, then try to ask another question in one minute, but are there any closing thoughts that you guys want to touch on, about value creation?

Sanjay Patel: (33:55)
I mean, on value creation, though, I think we've covered a lot. I think the biggest question, to me, when I think about the environment today, is not that they want opportunities. I think the question is, how do you originate credit, equity, real estate opportunities?

Sanjay Patel: (34:10)
I think there's ways to do it. To me, I think the market environment is such that there is in the growth world, there's a bubble going on, we can see it, and how that translates into, there's a lot of disruption, there's a lot of interesting stuff going on.

Sanjay Patel: (34:26)
But ultimately there, that will scale back. I mean, it won't affect the private equity world that much, the traditional core private equity world. To me, that's a big thing to watch.

David Lebovitz: (34:36)
No, I completely agree. I think that the growth in general, right, again, because of the macro environment we've been in, has begun to command a premium.

David Lebovitz: (34:45)
But I think what's interesting is that if you put yourself on the other side of the coin, and you think about the investor, right? I mean, effectively alternatives have gone from optional to essential.

David Lebovitz: (34:55)
You're not going to be able to hit your return targets unless you're investing in private credit, investing in private equity, investing in real assets, because public markets, particularly given the returns we've seen over the past 12 to 15 months, a lot of that return has been pulled forward.

David Lebovitz: (35:10)
Taking it one step further, I mean, what would you rather do, own equity passively? Or own equity where you can actually drive a better outcome at the end of the day? So I think that the combination of longer fund lives, coupled with that stickier capital, and the ability to drive operational improvement, is going to help a lot of investors realize their goals, and very much create a tailwind for the alternative investment space that hasn't really been there, up until this point.

Sanjay Patel: (35:36)
Good pitch.

David Lebovitz: (35:37)
Thank you.

Sanjay Patel: (35:38)
Okay, thanks.

Bailey McCann: (35:39)
Great. Well, I think we'll leave it there. Thanks, everyone.

Sanjay Patel: (35:41)
Thank you, thank you.

David Lebovitz: (35:43)
Thanks so much, everybody.

How Gold Fits Into Modern Portfolios with Ashraf Rizvi & Anthony Scaramucci | #SALTNY

How Gold Fits Into Modern Portfolios with Ashraf Rizvi, Founder & Chief Executive Officer, Gilded.

Moderated by Anthony Scaramucci, Founder & Managing Partner, SkyBridge.

Powered by RedCircle

 

MODERATOR

SPEAKER

Headshot - Rizvi, Ashraf - Cropped.png

Ashraf Rizvi

Chief Executive Officer & Founder

Gilded

Headshot - Scaramucci, Anthony.jpeg

Anthony Scaramucci

Founder & Managing Partner

SkyBridge

TIMESTAMPS

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Anthony Scaramucci : (00:07)
What do we have coming out here? Introduce the product that you're bringing out here. What is this?

Ashraf Rizvi: (00:13)
So Anthony, pretty excited to show off something really special that most people never get a chance to see in their lifetime. We got a million dollars worth of real gold coming out and here it comes. So we've got a 12.5 kg bar. That's $750,000 and five little guys, which are 1.0 Kg, each, about $60,000 a piece, right from the vault. There we go. Okay. [crosstalk 00:00:41] Now grab it, you want to grab it?

Anthony Scaramucci : (00:43)
The larger gold? I do want to grab it. Okay guys, ladies and gentlemen enjoy the rest of the conference. I'll see you guys. It's just going to be hard for me to get out of here with this thing though, okay?

Ashraf Rizvi: (00:53)
You can't run with that. Pretty amazing?

Anthony Scaramucci : (00:57)
How much does this weigh?

Ashraf Rizvi: (00:58)
That's about 27.5 pounds.

Anthony Scaramucci : (01:01)
Wow. 12.5 kg, $750,000.

Ashraf Rizvi: (01:05)
Getting the workout in. You can get a few curls in.

Anthony Scaramucci : (01:07)
Yeah if you haven't done a workout in a couple of days, a couple of years. All right, here we go. And what about these? What do these weigh? Thank you, sir.

Ashraf Rizvi: (01:14)
Little over two pounds, about $60,000.

Anthony Scaramucci : (01:16)
So when it says 99.99 that's what?

Ashraf Rizvi: (01:23)
That it's 99.99% pure. So that's why it's got that beautiful shine.

Anthony Scaramucci : (01:30)
Okay. And so that's sort of the purest gold that you can get, that's it? [crosstalk 00:01:35] And this is a representation of $1 million of gold.

Anthony Scaramucci : (01:40)
All right. So before we get into gold and Gilded, sit please, tell our delegates a little bit about your background.

Ashraf Rizvi: (01:48)
Well first I want to just start by saying Anthony, it's great to be on stage, great conference, and excited to be here.

Ashraf Rizvi: (01:55)
So, I feel like I've been preparing my whole life for this opportunity to do what Gilded is doing and what we're building starts with 30 plus years on Wall Street, like you. I had a chance to work for all the big Swiss banks: Credit Suisse, UBS, Swiss Bank Corporation. Run a lot of different businesses, emerging markets, FX, fixed income repo, and probably more importantly, the global metals and commodities businesses. Was fortunate enough to start two successful companies, one in 1986, fresh out of school. And then another one in the heights of the Great Financial Crisis, just like you managed billions of dollars for endowments, foundations, pension funds, family offices.

Ashraf Rizvi: (02:42)
And then there's also a personal story for me. My parents are first generation immigrants from India, and I can remember as a kid growing up, my dad telling me about how he was sending money back home to his family and how expensive it was. The Indian rupee was a 7.5 rupees to the dollar. Gold was at the time 35 bucks to an ounce. Today, of course, we're looking at 74 rupees to the dollar and we're looking at $1800 per ounce.

Ashraf Rizvi: (03:11)
And so as I look back now, after all these years, I see why Indians loved to buy gold because it's been such a great store of value for them. And of course, that's the big topic these days: store of value, given the decline of currencies worldwide.

Ashraf Rizvi: (03:27)
And the last thing is, I think at this stage in my career, I really wanted to do something where I thought I could make a difference and help people, whether it was in terms of financial planning, longterm wealth creation for their family, for their kids, and also making things easy.

Anthony Scaramucci : (03:44)
So gold culturally, 5,000 plus years of history as a store of value. And now you've created a company called Gilded. We have a lot of cryptocurrency people here, digital currency people. And tell us about the intersection, give us the elevator pitch for Gilded.

Ashraf Rizvi: (04:03)
Yeah, so I think the really exciting thing is that we're using blockchain technology, a smartphone and modern day apps to deliver that physical asset in a digital, mobile, and a usable form. And so that means making it functional like money, right? So that's the beautiful thing here is that we can make it such that you can buy it, hold it, store it, send it. We can already do that in 12 countries across the world, instantly 24/7. And then in the future, I'm expecting that we'll be able to add things like spend it through a debit card or credit card or borrow money against it, or even pledge it as collateral, for example.

Anthony Scaramucci : (04:54)
What's the benefit of using gold as a base asset in the crypto space?

Ashraf Rizvi: (05:00)
Yeah, so I would say two things. So one, it's important to know we're not a crypto or a stable coin or in fractional banking. So, and the reason for that is that in our case, we allow you to own that asset directly. It becomes your property, your title. So that's, that's very important. The second part I think is what we talked about, the store of value. This is not about getting rich quick or anything like that. It's about storing and preserving your value. And we all know that inflation has been eating it. Whether it's the dollar or currencies across the world. And I think gold has served that purpose for 5,000 years. And so we're now making that possible that we can bring it into 21st century where we can access it easily.

Anthony Scaramucci : (05:44)
So you've been in the currency space, the commodity space, three decades on wall street. And we've watched an erosion of fiat currency. How does this help against that erosion?

Ashraf Rizvi: (06:02)
So I think if we think about investors everywhere, whether it's the retail person, the hedge fund, the asset manager, the pension fund, the government, the corporation, everybody is faced with this and that today we're earning little or no interest on our currency, but we have inflation of 5%. So we're eroding our value. Gold has over the last 20 years returned about 9% a year. Our interest accounts are earning one and a half percent. Last 50 years, gold has earned 8%. Doesn't seem like it would be that high given it's a non-yielding asset, but money that you kept in the bank only four and a half percent over those 50 years. And so it's providing that protection. It's not fiat and it's no government's liability.

Anthony Scaramucci : (06:50)
When you think of the traditional cash apps versus Gilded, what is the analysis that you would give us there and what's the benefit of Gilded?

Ashraf Rizvi: (07:02)
So the nice thing here is we can make it easy, simple. I have the app and anybody's welcome to come by our booth. You can sign up, create an account, literally in five minutes, complete the whole KYC AML process. So we're very focused on good regulatory compliance, but you can do it in matter of minutes. Think about how long it takes to open a bank account. We don't have any of those problems and you can make a purchase with your debit card, credit card, or even through your bank account and you're off and running. And now you've got your store of value and independently audited verified and see even that you can actually see the bar that you have and that you own right on your app.

Anthony Scaramucci : (07:44)
So everybody talks about the future of smart wallets. At some point on our phone a secure, smart wallet, it'll have, perhaps some cryptocurrencies, maybe a fiat currency that's been digitized. Do you see Gilded and your digital gold in the wallet? People could transfer in and out of it into other currencies? Is that what you're seeing?

Ashraf Rizvi: (08:06)
I think the opportunity is big on so many different levels. I said, I think right from the beginning, once you digitize it and fractionalize it, which is what we've been able to do, now we can do so many things with it. And I think the really powerful thing, which is that we can make it happen instantaneously. So now we're no longer limited by the banking system. We can operate 24/7 and once other people are on that network and who've gone through the necessary KYC AML process, you can transfer value to them as well.

Anthony Scaramucci : (08:41)
So tell us the vision for the company. How do you see the company evolving over the next five years?

Ashraf Rizvi: (08:49)
So I'm really excited about a whole bunch of things. I think first, probably most important is that we can give people an opportunity to have that store of value and be able to do that easily by leveraging the fact that we're making that physical gold digital, mobile, and usable, and that we're making it your title, your property. And so, as you know, from the great financial crisis, if it's not your title or your property, it's often sitting with somebody else, the bank or some other custodian, and you could be at risk. And so given that a lot of people use gold as that ultimate store of value, you don't want to buy, as I would say, you don't want to buy CDSes on Bear Stearns from Lehman. That's not a good business. So I think that's the most important thing is to give them that store of value.

Ashraf Rizvi: (09:35)
The other is, I think we can do some social good too, which is we can help people who are trying to send money back home, very expensive, 6% on average, we can do it for far less, typically half that price or less, depending on the country involved. We can help in the fact that we can get the asset directly to the person who's intended to be the recipient. And we can also help with things like illicit or nefarious activity, because we're storing all the information on blockchain, so we can trace whoever's the owner of the asset or the product.

Ashraf Rizvi: (10:09)
Not to mention, the big opportunity, which I'm really excited about in the future is the unbanked space. Billion people who don't have access to a bank account. They've clearly been left out of the financial system. We can do something of value for them, too. They have phones, they have smartphones. If we can reach that audience so that they can have that ability to save and store value and create wealth for their family, that's I think a really good thing.

Anthony Scaramucci : (10:36)
We've known each other a long time. I'm obviously very good friends with your brother Suhail as well. You've been traveling the entire world during a pandemic to explain this company to people. What's the in general international reception?

Ashraf Rizvi: (10:54)
So I've been really excited about the fact that we're seeing interest on so many different levels. We started in India, initial beta testing. We've got a few hundred thousand downloads pretty quickly with relatively little advertising.

Ashraf Rizvi: (11:08)
I started showing it to friends, others, and what we've seen is interest now, not just at the retail side, family offices, corporations, financial institutions, and governments who want to leverage our technology for cross border trade or store of value, things that apply to them. And of course, the things that apply for all of them are: one, store of value; two, the ability to actually move value on an instantaneous basis. They care about that. Three, they care about the fact that they can operate on their own terms. They're not limited by the banking system, et cetera. So all of these things matter to each of them, and again, I think this is the beauty of having the asset where it's your title, your property, nobody else's liability, and being able to leverage the fact that you're making it digital, mobile, and usable. Really resonating with people.

Anthony Scaramucci : (12:07)
So some of the largest commodities in the world, like oil, are denominated in US dollars, or sometimes other fiat currencies, but predominantly US dollars. Is that a vision for you that at some point you would be transacting in gold over the blockchain, nations doing that?

Ashraf Rizvi: (12:28)
I think that's exactly where we're headed. I think there's the possibility once you've leveraged that blockchain technology, the mobile phone, and the app, and digitized and fractionalized, the possibilities become so widespread. And so I think that's exactly what, when we're thinking about companies or financial institutions or governments, thinking about is that how effectively they could use it in so many different ways.

Anthony Scaramucci : (12:55)
And how does this differ from cryptocurrency?

Ashraf Rizvi: (12:57)
So I think there's a number of different [video skips 00:13:00] but here, the biggest difference I think, most important is, it's your title, it's your property so it becomes your asset. And so if you think about it like a house or your car, but it goes back to a law which is around bailment, which is about English common law, hundreds of years of history, and only applies in commodities. And it's because it's a real asset and so when we move things, even if it's partially yours and somebody else's. You and I, let's say our tanker, half of it is mine, half is yours. That's bailment. It's similar to a coat check or a valet. When you valet your car, you didn't give that person your car. You expect it back, so that bailment concept is very powerful. It's part of English common law and all around the world. So it makes it your property, your title, your asset.

Ashraf Rizvi: (13:50)
And that's not the case, as you know, with the banking system. It's an IOU, that's fractional reserve banking where a stable coin even is sort of an IOU because they've got the money in a bank, et cetera. So that's really the big difference at the end day.

Ashraf Rizvi: (14:04)
The similarity I would say is freedom from fiat. We also share that vision. We want freedom from fiat.

Anthony Scaramucci : (14:11)
Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, Ashraf Rizvi from Gilded. Thank you very much Ashraf.

Workshops for Warriors: Helping Veterans Get Jobs at Home | #SALTNY

Workshops for Warriors: Helping Veterans Get Jobs at Home with Hernan Luis Y Prado, Chief Executive Officer & Founder, Workshops for Warriors.

Powered by RedCircle

 
 

SPEAKER

Headshot - Luis y Prado, Hernan - Cropped.jpeg

Hernán Luis y Prado

Chief Executive Officer & Founder

Workshops for Warriors

 

TIMESTAMPS

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Hernán Luis y Prado: (00:00)
Good morning. Thank you for inviting me here today to share a little bit about Workshops for Warriors and how together we can rebuild America's manufacturing. If you served in the military, please stand and be recognized. All right. Thank you for your service. I'm sure the beard was the first thing you did when you got out. Right? So my name is Hernán Luis y Prado. I'm a 15 year Navy veteran with combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. And I love the Navy, but I left. Why? When I came back from Iraq, the people I served with, competent, capable, honorable men and women, struggled to find purpose in the civilian world. But it dropped me to my knees when one of my Marines lost both of his legs on a roadside bomb. I turned to my wife and said, "We have to do something." We sold our house, cashed out our savings, retirement plans, sold everything that we had, and started Workshops for Warriors. And it's thanks to her selflessness and unparalleled ability to analyze data that we are what we are today. Rachel, where are you? Please stand. Thank you, sweetheart. Thank you.

Hernán Luis y Prado: (01:24)
Since 2008, Workshops for Warriors is the only nonprofit school in America that provides accelerated advanced manufacturing training, nationally recognized credentials and places veterans into advanced manufacturing jobs in machining, welding, robotics, 3D printing. And this is critical because there are almost one million unfilled manufacturing jobs in America that are unfilled due to lack of skilled labor. This number will triple by 2030. So who will build our bridges, our ships, our future?

Hernán Luis y Prado: (02:02)
How did we get here? America has been relying on this manufacturing training pipeline that was turned off after World War II almost 80 years ago. This staggering lack of vision is leading to this colossal skills gap, which jeopardizes $1 trillion of economic output and leaves America economically, socially, and militarily at risk. We can't have that happen. President Biden's infrastructure bill is well-intentioned, and it's desperately needed to reinvigorate America's manufacturing force. But it's based upon an incorrect assumption, which is that we have to train people to fill these jobs. The missing cornerstone of this plan is a nationally scalable training program like Workshops for Warriors.

Hernán Luis y Prado: (02:55)
But let me share with you how it impacts people on a personal level. After eight years and two combat tours in the Marine Corps, James suddenly found himself unemployed, single and living in his car with his three-year-old son, Sammy. This combat veteran had never felt fear before until that day because he was worried. How was he going to feed his son? Low on gas with $2 in his bank account, he had lost all hope until he found Workshops for Warriors. After 16 weeks of accelerated manufacturing training and machining at our school with housing, tuition, childcare, and all meals covered, I am thrilled to tell you that James now has a $60,000 a year job in advanced manufacturing. But most importantly, thank you, he found hope. And for Sammy, that means that he and his father can sleep in their own beds in their own home for the first time.

Hernán Luis y Prado: (04:10)
What's the problem? For every James we can help, there are thousands we cannot. There are over one million service members that are leaving the service over the next five years. These are competent, mission-oriented, team-focused people that are ready if given the proper training, to start a new mission to rebuild America's manufacturing force, which every industry in America says is their number one priority right now. The challenge? Money. This is enlightened self-interest. By training veterans, you help our nation, and you help your company's bottom line. It's that simple. So here's my ask. $15 million allows us to train three times as many veterans as we can every single year and allows our school to become self-sufficient. $148 million increases the number of graduates we train 20 times and is tax-deductible. But you say, "Wait, those are numbers. Give me more numbers." Well, my wife, the statistician, says, "It's all about data." Right? So here's the data.

Hernán Luis y Prado: (05:20)
Since 2008, we have over 1,000 graduates who work in every state of the nation. 94% of our graduates are placed and retained in full-time jobs at companies like Boeing, SpaceX, Tesla, Google with $60,000 a year average starting salaries after just 16 weeks of accelerated training at our school, and we can replicate this nationally. Since 2008, we have grown 350 times our original footprint. We have a proven track record and we are ready to scale nationally. Because Workshops for Warriors manufacturers productivity and purpose by giving veterans the skills they need to strengthen our nation and your bottom line. That's what we need. We would never be happy with second place. Right? Guess what? In manufacturing, that's where we are, second place, and I need your help to fix that. You can put America back on top again, but it requires all of us to help. Join us at wfw.org, speak with me here at the conference, and join Workshops for Warriors in rebuilding American manufacturing, one veteran at a time. Thank you for your time. Have a good day.

Investing for Financial Storms | #SALTNY

Investing for Financial Storms with Mark Spitznagel, Founder & Chief Investment Officer, Universa Investments.

Moderated by William Cohan, Bestselling Author & Founding Partner, Puck.

Powered by RedCircle

 

MODERATOR

SPEAKER

Headshot - Spitznagel, Mark - Cropped.jpeg

Mark Spitznagel

Founder & Chief Investment Officer

Universa Investments

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William Cohan

Bestselling Author

TIMESTAMPS

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

William Cohan: (00:07)
It's nice to see people outside of their box, and I just want to say thank you to Anthony for bringing this to New York City and pulling this off. I think he deserves an amazing round of applause. This is incredible.

William Cohan: (00:30)
I'm here with Mark Spitznagel, who's an incredible investor. My first question, Mark, is on weeks like we've just had, where the market goes down every day, I know it's up a little bit today.

William Cohan: (00:48)
Do you get more calls on weeks like last week? Or more calls when the market's hitting its all-time highs?

Mark Spitznagel: (00:57)
Good question. Universa clients tend to be very strategic, as opposed to tactical. So I would say that in general, it doesn't really matter, and I would characterize this week as basically being noise. But it's a good question, because it really is when the market is going up that risk mitigation in the right way, cost-effective risk mitigation is so important.

Mark Spitznagel: (01:26)
Because I argue that cost effective risk mitigation, when done well, doesn't just take you out of risk, but actually allows you to take on more risk, so maybe it's better to say, take more exposure. This is really important. So the more the market rallies, the more that's really something.

Mark Spitznagel: (01:41)
That's important. But, of course, we also know that the more the market rallies, the more it can take all that back. It tends to be how boom-bust cycles work. But in general, I would say that it's noise.

William Cohan: (01:54)
It's a toss-up.

Mark Spitznagel: (01:55)
It's a toss-up.

William Cohan: (01:57)
How do people get in touch with you? And who are your clients? Who are they? Who are your investors?

Mark Spitznagel: (02:10)
It would tend to be your typical institutions, so ...

William Cohan: (02:16)
Looking for risk mitigation?

Mark Spitznagel: (02:18)
Well, exactly. I mean, institutions, think of a pension fund, the problem that they face is, what I call the great dilemma of risk, which is, if you don't take enough risk, of course, it costs you wealth over time.

Mark Spitznagel: (02:33)
If you take too much risk, it costs you wealth over time, so we're forced to kind of navigate and fine-tune, and find what is termed the Holy Grail, somewhere in the middle. The Holy Grail doesn't exist.

Mark Spitznagel: (02:45)
The modern portfolio theory of modern finance can't help with that problem. Of course, we know what modern finance tells us is that you take less risk, your return goes down. As long as that ratio is, all your risk adjusted returns are going up, that's an okay thing. This is the whole machinery of modern finance.

Mark Spitznagel: (03:07)
I would argue that this is something that we should question. What that's really telling us is that the cure is worse than disease, when it comes to risk mitigation.

Mark Spitznagel: (03:17)
I argue that we should mitigate risk, specifically to save us from the losses, and we should do better than had we experienced the losses without risk mitigation. It shouldn't cost us to do that, because it begs the question, then why do we do it?

Mark Spitznagel: (03:34)
But this is what modern portfolio theory is all about. My whole point, in my book, for instance, is it doesn't have to be that way. We just need to think about it differently.

William Cohan: (03:47)
You told me the other day, that you're as bearish as you could possibly be, but also, that it doesn't matter what you think, whether the market's going up or down. Can you explain how that could possibly be?

Mark Spitznagel: (04:04)
Yeah. I mean, Cassandras make very lousy investors. I don't think there's any question about that. They know they have to get their timing there, tactically, they have to be perfect, and they never are.

Mark Spitznagel: (04:17)
But it goes to my point about how, when risk mitigation is cost-effective, it's strategic, and we actually want the market to go up more, when we are risk mitigated. A good analogy would be when dark clouds loom, do you go hide inside? If you do, when dark clouds are always looming, you're always hiding inside.

Mark Spitznagel: (04:40)
But then, an analogy for a different type of risk mitigation, one that's more explosive, and one that's more efficient would be going outside when dark clouds loom, but having an umbrella that pops open when you need it. I guess that what this is showing is that risk mitigation, a safe haven, to be cost effective, needs to be explosive.

Mark Spitznagel: (04:59)
It needs to maximize the bang for the buck that you get out of it. What that really means is you need less of it. This is the whole problem with these risk mitigation strategies, diworsifiers, as Peter Lynch called them.

Mark Spitznagel: (05:12)
You could take hedge funds as a group, for example. You could take the strategy of certainly, risk parity, or you could take certainly fixed income. It gives you such little return in a crash, that you need so much of it in your portfolio, in order to be effective. The fact that you need so much of in your portfolio creates such a drag the rest of the time.

Mark Spitznagel: (05:35)
It just ends up making you poor, that the cure ends up having been worse than the disease, for all these strategies that I'm describing. It doesn't matter if there's a crash or no crash, which again, begs the question, what was the point of it all?

Mark Spitznagel: (05:47)
But if you need it for anything, and I'm not just saying this about tail hedging, it doesn't need parts, it doesn't need ... There's other ways that one could think about this.

Mark Spitznagel: (05:55)
If all you need is a very allocation, and it has enough crash bang for the buck, as I call it, then you actually are able to take on more systematic exposure, and you actually want the market to continue. I, for one, would like this boom to go on forever.

Mark Spitznagel: (06:12)
I'm saying that as a hedge fund manager, it really only expects to make large returns when there's a crash. But the effectiveness, the cost-effective effectiveness of what we do, exists, whether there's a crash or not, historically.

William Cohan: (06:27)
Why don't you explain how this works at Universa? I mean, you've put out some incredible numbers. 2020, correct me if I'm wrong, something around 4,000% increase, but overall in the life of your fund, more than 100%, which you say in the book here.

William Cohan: (06:49)
What exactly are you doing for investors? How does it work? How does this insurance, in effect, that you're selling investors work? How do you make money? How do they make money? Why should anybody be interested in what you're doing?

Mark Spitznagel: (07:04)
But I don't claim that they should, and I have no interest in, I have no reason to get into that level of detail. People often tell me that it feels like I'm dangling this idea in front of them, because I'm not going to talk about specific trades that I do, but I would ...

William Cohan: (07:19)
No, no, forget the specific trades.

Mark Spitznagel: (07:21)
Yeah.

William Cohan: (07:21)
The idea behind your trades, what are you offering? What is this protection that you're offering?

Mark Spitznagel: (07:28)
Well, I mean, it's the result. That is what I like to talk about, because it gives a better understanding of what it's offering to the end user. That is something that explodes in value in a crash, and loses small amounts of the rest of the time.

Mark Spitznagel: (07:40)
Obviously, that looks like a far out of the money put, but I never want to lead someone in that direction, because puts, to just to stay put, and to have somebody buy a put, you could even identify a strike, and a duration is, that that's not managed correctly. You're doing something and someone an extreme disservice.

Mark Spitznagel: (07:58)
This is something that we've been, we've been working on for 25 years, and we still learn every day, how best to do this. If you don't get the bang for the buck, and you're not able to monetize these things the way you need to, it's going to be a waste of your time, it's going to be very costly.

Mark Spitznagel: (08:13)
Like I said, it's far more important, I think, for people to understand the purpose of what we try to do in risk mitigation. I don't just mean we, I mean, we all try to do, as risk mitigators, why we're doing it. Because I think these are the sort of first principle questions that we don't ask.

Mark Spitznagel: (08:30)
It's why we find ourselves creating what I call the risk mitigation irony. We mitigate against the risk, but it ends up costing us more than that, the risk of that loss would have ever cost us in the first place. But like I said, this is modern portfolio theory.

Mark Spitznagel: (08:46)
If people just think about risk mitigation in terms of its cost effectiveness, what you need to do to be cost effective, I think they're way ahead of the game. I think that levels the playing field for most people, far more than if I were to just talk, or give a basic cartoon example of what Universa does.

William Cohan: (09:05)
You also once told me that you sell peace of mind for investors. That's a pretty great product to sell.

Mark Spitznagel: (09:17)
Peace of mind, but that, I mean, look, that too sounds like a ... At what cost? At what cost do we pay for peace of mind, right? There's this expression from one of the great German commodities traders is, "The better to sleep well to than to eat well."

Mark Spitznagel: (09:36)
I don't necessarily agree with that. I think if you're just looking for peace of mind, you're going to end up having overpaid for it. Maybe I said that, but it needs to be done cost effectively. That ultimately is the key.

Mark Spitznagel: (09:47)
The only way to do that is to do it in a way that you need to put so, so little into it. And this is the problem with gold, first and foremost. I mean, I'm an advocate of gold, clearly, because of my beliefs, I'm sorry, economic beliefs.

Mark Spitznagel: (10:00)
But the problem with gold is, for it to give you the hedge that it needs to give you, you have to have so much of it in your portfolio, that when it's not doing anything for you, it represents a massive drag. And over long periods of time, you really need to have gotten the tactical call right to make that work.

Mark Spitznagel: (10:17)
I think most people probably would agree with that, because they think of gold as sort of a tactical inflation hedge. But I just don't think that tactical risk mitigation is something that any of us will ever be able to do very well. It presumes that crystal ball that risk mitigation presupposes in the first place, that we don't, none of us have.

William Cohan: (10:38)
How about crypto? Is that a store of value? Is that something akin to gold at this point? Is Bitcoin akin to golds? Or is it riskier than that?

Mark Spitznagel: (10:51)
Crypto? I mean, I think I can I get the feeling that a lot of people who are into cryptocurrencies are, I mean, they're definitely my people. I mean, I'm considering myself a libertarian, and Ron Paul, but I think the problem is that it's the speculative aspect of it that bothers me.

Mark Spitznagel: (11:11)
I mean, we think of it as an antidote to this problem that we're living through right now, we all recognize it, but I think what ends up happening with the speculation behind it is, it's turned itself into a symptom. I mean, you've got to remember, it's very easy to put your blinders on and look at something like Bitcoin, or choose your cryptocurrency, and say, "Look at what this thing is doing."

Mark Spitznagel: (11:34)
There's something special going on here, just by price action. You can't argue with that, but then you take your blinders off, and you got to look around and say, "You can say the same thing about Rolex watches and baseball cards." These things are being pushed by the same fundamental liquidity driven speculative excess.

Mark Spitznagel: (11:58)
That's not to say that there's nothing that there isn't something special going on in crypto, I firmly do believe that, but I just think we need to recognize that there are other things driving it. It isn't just the sort of idiosyncratic story.

William Cohan: (12:14)
When we spoke in February of 2020, right before the full impact of the pandemic became clear to Americans, anyway, and I remember the high yield bond then was yielding about 5%, which I thought was ridiculous, and the market was at another one of its all time highs. And I was very concerned that the market was going to correct, and I think you were, too.

William Cohan: (12:49)
In March, it did correct, in a bad, big, bad way. Of course, then the Fed stepped in, in both March and April. And now, we're levitating again, and what you were just talking about, asset prices, across the board, the market's pretty much at an all time high again.

William Cohan: (13:06)
I looked yesterday, the high yield bond is yielding under 4%. To me, this is screaming correction. You said, when we talked a few weeks ago, that you were as nervous as ever or worried is ever about the markets. What do you think it was going on here?

William Cohan: (13:30)
I mean, it's almost October, so that's usually correction time in America, in the markets. What's your take?

Mark Spitznagel: (13:39)
Well, I agree that we should all be very concerned, but the more overvalued markets get, the more they tend to get. But overvaluation is the ultimate source of crashes. This notion of a black swan event, I mean, I can show empirically, at least historically, it doesn't have to always be the case, but they have basically all come from a period of overvaluation.

Mark Spitznagel: (14:01)
The market just gets more fragile, and is more prone to pay, it pays more attention to bad news, and it's overvalued, right? I agree with you, but I just don't think that we should all of a sudden pretend that we can time this. We should be ready for it. We should absolutely be ready for it.

Mark Spitznagel: (14:16)
The problem is, when you, if you adjust your portfolio accordingly, with the sort of linear instruments, if your disposition is wrong, what you could be exposing yourself to is getting squeezed back in as the market goes higher, and just trade short. Or do you make yourself short gamma?

Mark Spitznagel: (14:34)
This is the problem when someone says, "Should I get out of the market?" There's no way to answer that question to somebody, without knowing what they're being able to forecast what they would do in certain environments, how short gamma they would be, conditional on different market moves, if the market were to run away from them.

Mark Spitznagel: (14:53)
Similarly, when someone is too long, and the market goes down, they're susceptible to selling it in the hole. I think this is the problem the question people need to ask themselves is, "What would I do in the scenario where the market moves against me?" And we probably aren't even able to answer that question honesty.

Mark Spitznagel: (15:13)
I'm not just talking about retail investors here. I mean, there are huge sophisticated pension funds that succumb to this problem of being short gamma, as a result of some grandiose forecast that they make, and position their portfolio accordingly.

William Cohan: (15:29)
I mean, do you have any sense of what the catalyst might be for correction?

Mark Spitznagel: (15:36)
I don't even have to think about that.

William Cohan: (15:37)
No, you don't, but ...

Mark Spitznagel: (15:37)
But I don't have to think about that. So the question can always be asked. It's a credit bubble, and if that credit is being generated by the Fed, why should it ever end, as long as the Fed doesn't ever end it?

Mark Spitznagel: (15:52)
I don't think that the central banks will ever pop this bubble. I think that they cannot afford to do that. It will have to come from something else. I don't think that that's a controversial statement.

William Cohan: (16:03)
No.

Mark Spitznagel: (16:04)
But the problem is, there's a limit to how much debt any entity can take on. That's why it ends up its own sort of weight.

William Cohan: (16:16)
Well, and there's, I think, at least in my judgment, a clear mispricing of risk. I mean, back in my younger days, high yield investors demanded 10, 11, 12%-plus warrants, and if Mike Milken didn't put them in his pocket, then they might actually get them. Now you've got under 4% yield, no one talks about warrants.

Mark Spitznagel: (16:45)
Yeah, yeah.

William Cohan: (16:46)
I mean, how do you reconcile the investor capitulation that's gone on, and their willingness to take incredible risk, and not get compensated for it? I mean, maybe it'll work out, maybe it won't.

William Cohan: (17:00)
On a relative basis, it's better than owning Treasuries, or whatever, that yeld under 1%. I get that whole argument, but I just don't understand why, once upon a time, they demanded 800 basis points more yield, plus warrants, and now?

Mark Spitznagel: (17:18)
Yeah.

William Cohan: (17:19)
No big deal.

Mark Spitznagel: (17:20)
Or you can just lever it up. I mean, leverage is so the panacea for a strategy that doesn't make enough money for you. I mean, it is also the excuse that risk parity, for example, uses.

Mark Spitznagel: (17:33)
Risk parity, for instance, I'm not just picking on risk parity, diworsifying strategies cost you well, but the presumption, then, is that you will just lever them up, and it won't cost you well. But of course, that's preposterous to think that it should blow your mind that you need to use leverage, financial engineering leverage, in order for a risk mitigation strategy to be effective.

Mark Spitznagel: (17:52)
But I think that is sort of a presumption, that we just do more of it, do more of it. There's a Margaret Thatcher quote that says, "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

Mark Spitznagel: (18:06)
But I think that when it comes to these credit booms, credit bubbles, the problem with credit bubbles is, eventually, you're no longer able to borrow other people's money. There's a limit to that. And I think we need to remember that. This is not just an infinite source.

Mark Spitznagel: (18:22)
This is not necessarily helicopter money, it's a debt. And fundamental to all of this is thinking, is equating debt with wealth, fundamental to the belief in this going on forever.

William Cohan: (18:36)
You have to pay debt back, last time I ...

Mark Spitznagel: (18:38)
It's a liability.

William Cohan: (18:39)
Yeah.

Mark Spitznagel: (18:39)
It's not an asset.

William Cohan: (18:40)
Not an asset. Okay. So you wrote this book, Safe Haven. Why'd you do this?

Mark Spitznagel: (18:48)
You know ...

William Cohan: (18:49)
Write a book this hard?

Mark Spitznagel: (18:50)
I almost didn't. It was very hard to get done, and it was introspection for me.

Mark Spitznagel: (18:55)
I mean, the general idea is why I approach risk mitigation the way I do. I think it's a framework, right, on how I think people should think about it.

Mark Spitznagel: (19:07)
As I said before, I think there's so much superficial narrative in what risk mitigation or safe haven investing is, so much superficial narrative, people don't ask what they're trying to accomplish in doing it.

Mark Spitznagel: (19:20)
If they did that, I think we wouldn't have these diwosrfiying strategies out there, nearly as popular as we do, because there wouldn't be a reason to do that. The logic would dictate that people would have to stop doing that.

William Cohan: (19:35)
Yeah, but we've talked about this before. I mean, retail investors, regular investors, non-institutional investors, can't really get access to your risk mitigation strategies. Being in cash, as you said, is not a great strategy.

William Cohan: (19:55)
I have found, having lived through now, three or four crashes, that if you just sort of stick with it, the market does seem to rebound, and everything sort of works out despite the pain that you're experiencing during the market disruption. What's the common man to do in this situation?

Mark Spitznagel: (20:14)
I mean, the common man is, they're kind of screwed there. They're trapped in this dilemma that I've described. This is the trap that, that has been set by central banks for our whole life.

William Cohan: (20:30)
Pretty close.

Mark Spitznagel: (20:30)
Let's say it started in the '80s, big time. Listen, everything can't be about cookbook on what your next trade should be. First of all, we got to get our first principles right.

Mark Spitznagel: (20:46)
We got to understand we're doing what we're doing. We've got to understand what to expect out of our safe haven, out of our risk mitigation strategy. Are we making a forecast? Is it a punt on its own?

Mark Spitznagel: (21:00)
Or do we think we're actually using it strategically to mitigate our risks? And if so, what should we expect of it? Is this something that we should always have on? Or do we think that we know something special about the world right now, that we're going to get this right?

Mark Spitznagel: (21:13)
I think, most people think of it, it looks like diversification is the way to go for most people. So I think most people think about safe havens and risk mitigation as just a cost that you bear.

Mark Spitznagel: (21:28)
But if you look historically at it, what you find is that that cost, you can go through all the cycles that you can find. That cost is something that you would never have made up. So then, why did you do it?

Mark Spitznagel: (21:43)
This is particularly relevant today, with interest rates where they are. Because, of course, it's fixed income that is the ultimate diversification.

William Cohan: (21:52)
It's personally relevant, particularly with interest rates where they are, and where the markets are where they are, and where other assets are where they are. I mean, it just is screaming out for correction, if you ask me. Because I've been like a broken clock right twice a day for the last five years.

Mark Spitznagel: (22:07)
But I don't disagree with what you're saying. But I still think we all need to take this sort of benevolent universe premise. What that means is, it doesn't mean that everything will turn out okay.

Mark Spitznagel: (22:17)
It means that we can adapt, and we should be working to make those changes, in order to make our way through. And that doesn't necessarily just mean we have to hide in the basement, right?

William Cohan: (22:28)
In the three or four minutes we have left here, so if we can't, by and large, get access to your risk mitigation strategies, we can get access to your goat cheese.

William Cohan: (22:43)
You have an incredible farm in Michigan, and you make incredible goat cheese, but you have a philosophy of farming that I think is pretty fascinating too. Could you share that with us?

Mark Spitznagel: (22:58)
Well, I mean, we do regenerative farming at Idyll Farms, and that's based on a very managed way, moving these ruminant goats around pasture, on this basically mimicking nature the way ruminants used to roam around the landscape.

Mark Spitznagel: (23:16)
When you do that, you get this sort of interesting symbiotic relationship between the ruminants and the pasture and the soil. What ends up happening is, the productivity of the soil and the health of the soil explodes. So this is something that is a movement that's going on right now.

Mark Spitznagel: (23:35)
But the connection that I make is, when you do this, the whole is, is pretty much greater than the sum of the parts. And I think that modern agriculture, really, that's the one thing they really miss.

Mark Spitznagel: (23:47)
Because what has modern, industrial farming done? It's taken the ruminants, put them inside, and it's planted monoculture, chemical monoculture crops on that land, and then moves it to feed them inside.

Mark Spitznagel: (23:59)
Of course, when you do that as an ecological disaster, and it's very unhealthy, and our top soil is being depleted, but that's just looking at the parts. It's looking at it in a reductionist way, which is a perfect analogy to what modern finance has done.

Mark Spitznagel: (24:13)
You break down the portfolio in a very reductionist way by optimizing some meaningless mean variance, sharp ratio in your portfolio, that just ends up making everybody poor, without looking at the whole, when you're looking at what different types of, as I said before, explosive types of payouts can do for the whole. Yeah, it seems that that has been very important to me for a long time.

William Cohan: (24:42)
Why didn't you decide to do this, as a sidelight to your investing?

Mark Spitznagel: (24:47)
Well, it was a wonderful antidote to trading and investing, but we know, of course, goats are these wonderful herding animals. And it sort of occurred to me too late, that as long as I'm out there with them, that all I've really done is moved from one herding beast, in investing in the markets, to another herding beast. There are great similarities, but it's a ...

William Cohan: (25:12)
Goats can be nicer, though, than people.

Mark Spitznagel: (25:14)
Oh, they tend to be. They tend to be.

William Cohan: (25:15)
Yeah.

Mark Spitznagel: (25:16)
But everybody needs something sort of tangible, I think, in their lives like that.

William Cohan: (25:21)
And is it a viable business for you?

Mark Spitznagel: (25:24)
It is. The other great byproduct of this sort of symbiotic relationship between ruminant and pasture and soil, is that it makes particularly good milk for cheese.

Mark Spitznagel: (25:37)
I mean, it's interesting, even in the Loire Valley, they stopped using this pasture-based model, and our cheese is far better than goat cheese from Loire Valley. There's no bias in that.

William Cohan: (25:50)
No, and I was going to say, you say so yourself. But your other location is Miami. Why there?

Mark Spitznagel: (25:58)
Well, we moved the firm from California in 2014. Listen, we all know what's going on, from Wall Street to South Florida. I think it's a very positive thing. It keeps both ends of that transaction more disciplined. People vote with their feet. It's a very business friendly environment, better time zones and things like that, too.

William Cohan: (26:23)
Well, thank you very much. Mark is an incredible investor and a great maker of goat cheese. So if you can ever get him to let you into his risk mitigation strategy, you will be better off for it. I haven't convinced him yet.

Mark Spitznagel: (26:38)
Thank you.

William Cohan: (26:39)
Thank you.

Impact Is Everything & Everything Is Impact | #SALTNY

Impact Is Everything & Everything Is Impact with Megan Starr, Global Head of Impact, The Carlyle Group. Joanna Reiss, Co-Lead of Impact, Apollo. Erika Karp, Chief Impact Officer, Pathstone.

Moderated by James Ledbetter, Chief Content Officer, Clarim Media.

PRESENTED BY

 

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SPEAKERS

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Megan Starr

Global Head of Impact

The Carlyle Group

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Joanna Reiss

Partner and Co-Lead of Impact

Apollo Global Management

 
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Erika Karp

Chief Impact Officer

Pathstone

MODERATOR

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James Ledbetter

Chief Content Officer

Clarim Media

TIMESTAMPS

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

James Ledbetter: (00:07)
Good afternoon. I don't know about you, but that's the first time I've ever walked on stage to Maroon 5. Might be the last time. Welcome everyone. Let me introduce this all star panel. I'm going to do it from left to right as you see it. First, we have Meg Starr who's global head of impact at the Carlyle Group. To her left, Joanna Rees, the co-lead of impact that Apollo. And finally Ericka Karp, chief impact officer at Pathstone. It's a high impact panel. Welcome all of you.

James Ledbetter: (00:42)
I thought it might make sense to start by trying to define terms a little bit. There are people and I might be one of them who will use ESG investing and impact investing more or less interchangeably. There aren't really fixed definitions of any of these things. I wonder as all of you have impact in your title, what does impact mean to you? And we can go alphabetical, so Erika, you can go first.

Erika Karp: (01:10)
Well impact means that it matters. Something happens when you do something, you move something. By the way, I would argue that ESG it's not an asset class, it's not a style, it's not a strategy. It is not ESG investing. ESG is an analytical lens. It is simply a starting point. It's a discipline. That's how we see it. Once you do ESG analysis, you can do any kind of investing you want.

Joanna Reiss: (01:43)
How we think about it is ESG is ownership practices. Making sure that we are mindful for any specific business of the ESG risk factors, opportunities, managing them carefully the same we would manage factors associated with any part of an investment. We're going to watch the company's debt covenants. We should also be watching its governance policies. Impact we think of as the next iteration and separate. For impact, we look at companies that are actually through their products or services, doing something good in the world, whether it be socially or environmentally. And so you could have pretty much any company with good ESG or we certainly try but not every business can be an impact business in our definition.

James Ledbetter: (02:24)
One handy way of remembering it, it came up on our call on Friday, somebody was talking about investing in the Venetian. The Venetian can have the best ESG policies in the world but it's really hard to make the case that they're doing good in the world.

Joanna Reiss: (02:40)
Well, they might be bringing joy. But at least in our definition it's not quite there.

Megan Starr: (02:46)
But I also think we're entering a next phase of this space, where I agree with Joanna of ESG is typically about how a company operates, an impact is what it does to make a profit. And those have been separate tools but I think we're seeing a lot of convergence because the market is starting to price in companies that are helping to solve environmental and social challenges. And so you can take a company that might not look impactful at face value. Carlyle bought a company called Weiman a couple of years ago, cleaning supply company. Our thesis was around changing consumer preferences for green, safe cleaning supplies. And so our investment was all about how do we transform that company into a clean producer? And so I do think in some instances, there's this intersection of you need both of those as we think about what's being valued into the market.

Erika Karp: (03:35)
James, I just have to say that ESG analysis gives us an opportunity to get away from good and bad. We don't have to say good and bad. In fact, our investors, our clients are the ones that say good and bad, even though we might not agree with them. But ESG analysis allows you to align your values with your investments but it is about value, not values when it comes to doing this kind of analysis. We don't have to say good and bad.

Megan Starr: (04:07)
I love that because I feel like so frequently that topic comes up, but people saying, "Well, is Amazon a good ESG company?" Or arguing that someone has an S&P 500 type equivalent that's lower carbon and they're picking out individual names saying, "How could you call that name?" And the whole point is it's not labels and it's not binary. It's how are they doing vis-a-vis peers on material, environmental and social dimensions for their business.

James Ledbetter: (04:32)
Meg, you touched on something that, that I want to go into a little deeper. And that is this idea of the categories merging a little bit or perhaps both being necessary. Just stepping back a little bit, I'm curious to hear from all of you too, how do you think about, how do you describe what has happened to this sector over the last, say three to five years? And what is making that happen?

Megan Starr: (04:58)
Well, I think Erika.

Erika Karp: (05:00)
It's not a sector.

Megan Starr: (05:01)
I'm just going to thesis that we're in the second wave of this being a contrarian thesis. And in its early days, when people thought about ESG or whatever they termed it, they were like, that's feel good investing or fuzzy math. How can you possibly make money when you're busy thinking about carbon emissions for people. The world has flipped where we realize that companies are thinking about engaged, safe, productive workforces, that companies that are in the forefront of the energy transition, they're outperforming. And so a lot of capital has flowed towards those ESG leaders. And I think what we're seeing now is that the kind of next phase of saying, "Actually, how can you invest in companies that maybe don't have great environmental or social dimensions, improve those and that's actually the kind of activism thesis of improving those companies into the higher multiples."

James Ledbetter: (05:47)
Interesting. Joanna.

Joanna Reiss: (05:49)
Fundamentally for any business we own or lend to or otherwise engage with, you have a certain level of responsibility in the same way you are responsible for helping them figure out their procurement strategy, you're also responsible for making sure that the appropriate employment policies are in place. What have you. And I think that importantly, that is become table stakes. Our investors expect it. They're shocked if you're not focused on it and it's a major area of investment and we think opportunity to make our companies better. Which is fundamentally what we try to do, buy a company, make it better, make some money for our investors along the way. But the impact side of it I think is quite interesting because impact investing is not new. If you were to go back, we're talking decades of people focused on whether it be micro-finance in emerging markets.

Joanna Reiss: (06:38)
That is the quintessential impact investing. What we think is new is the focus on at least what we're doing here at Apollo is impact at scale and trying to think through how do you take that mindset? How do you take all of those approaches, practices that have been built up over the call it decade or two and apply that to more businesses and accomplish what Meg described? Which is find businesses that have potential for impact, that are in that marketplace and where you see an opportunity to take a company that's doing something that's fine and turn into a company that's doing something really good in the world. And that's what I think is new.

Joanna Reiss: (07:15)
And the other part of it that is clear is just the level of attention has grown exponentially. And I think that's frankly, one of the good things to come out of the pandemic is a greater mindfulness of the externalities of everything we do. Whether it's business B to B consumption patterns, B to C, people are more mindful. And of course the government overlay is that we should be thinking through how do we help underserved communities? How do we help the environment? All of that is just the secular tailwind behind what we're trying to do.

James Ledbetter: (07:48)
Erika.

Erika Karp: (07:49)
What I would add is there's a bunch of new things going on. One thing that's new is that we have every kind of piece of the capital markets lined up like we never did. You have the asset managers and the asset owners and the investment banks, the exchanges, the accountants, the lawyers, the students. We have everybody lined up to think about this in a really transparent way. And on top of that, we now have standards for disclosure that are coming along, the SASB, the GRI and what's going on there. The standards for disclosure transparency is really transformational. That's critical. And another thing that's new is that we have data that is turning noise into signal. We have social media making everything, everybody knows everything all at the same time. We have an intergenerational transfer of wealth of trillions like we haven't seen before.

Erika Karp: (08:46)
All of this stuff happening at the same time, that's new. And then further, we are moving away from myths, stupid myths that there's some breach of fiduciary duty when you do ESG analysis. It's quite the opposite. And then a myth that there has to be under performance from the investment standpoint. Stupid and it's being put aside. There's a lot new that's going on. The risk though, is as the movement, if you call it that, I call it a discipline. As the discipline shows asset flows, we're getting everybody coming in to try to do this type of analysis and that's problematic. We have to be careful that we don't kind of undermine the whole economic and impact proposition because of new players that are basically marketing. We got to be careful about that.

Megan Starr: (09:40)
And do you think it's problematic in some ways but I also, we're applying a ton of scrutiny right now to anyone that purports to do ESG, which I think is a great thing. I also want to see people apply that level of scrutiny to the people that don't claim to be thinking about environmental or social dimension. And so on one hand, I do think this market rush to focusing on this, there will be a wide dispersion of what that actually looks like, but I think the market will sort through that. We sorted through that before when venture capital became a thing and everyone raised a vendor, hedge funds. We've been through this before. And so I think we're in the early innings of it's been recognized as a major discipline and now we'll sort through who's actually doing it well versus who's putting in a pitch deck because they think people want to see that.

James Ledbetter: (10:24)
Erika, I just want to touch on something you said there to capture the moment. It's I think at this point in the discussion that someone usually brings up the Milton Friedman article from 50 years ago, that the only social purpose of businesses to maximize profits. You're saying if I'm understanding you correctly, that is dead. As a philosophy that is dead.

Erika Karp: (10:44)
No, I love profits. It's not dead. Unfortunately he just left out two words, had he put in long term, we'd be good. We really would be good. And so in Friedman, if you read the work, he wasn't totally tone deaf to society. Not at all. With those two words, just like with Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations. Go back further than that and think about The Theory of Moral Sentiments. He cared about human beings but in The Wealth of Nations, he didn't talk about these negative externalities that could happen. And so there's a miss. But now we're at a place where we're at least conscious about what's going on and we can start accounting for profits while taking into mind, not just financial capital but human capital and natural capital so we have an opportunity. But I love profits as much as the next person.

Joanna Reiss: (11:51)
And yet what I think is critical here is finding the right businesses. Finding business where profit and purpose are not intention every day and then owning them with a focus on both is how we get to the outcomes our investors want, that we want, that's good for impact investing. If you just pick a business where you do have that fundamental, if we're going to improve profit margins, we're going to be hurting this environmental issue, this underserved constituency, what have you, then you find yourself in the opposite condition where you by necessity are putting one to the side. That's the tricky part in my mind is finding those businesses that where you move in the same direction.

Megan Starr: (12:30)
And I think to that point about if the purpose of business is around generating profit, what we're finding is that you generate more profit in today's day and age if you're conscious of your environmental and social footprint. And Erika was talking about if we can actually have data, you can sort the signal from the noise. And at Carlyle, we have really granular ESG data because we asked for it for our companies. We have 250 portfolio companies give or take and we have really granular financial data because we're investors in them. And so when you combine those together, you can actually start seeing where those levers are. And one quick example, we hear a lot about diversity, equity and inclusion, our portfolio companies that have at least two diverse board directors have 12% faster annualized earnings growth than our companies without diverse directors. And so this whole point about the purpose is profit, the data's there.

James Ledbetter: (13:17)
If you do it right.

Megan Starr: (13:18)
And not all ESG things matter for any company or for a specific company but there are specific levers and being smart about finding those, that is maximizing profit in a changing world.

James Ledbetter: (13:31)
Joanna, you said something that I wanted to frame slightly differently. The title of this panel is Impact is Everything, Everything is Impact. I think what you just say is that's not actually true. Within maybe a sector there are businesses where it's true or in individual businesses. What did you mean when you said you have to find the right business where those goals where they're not in conflict?

Joanna Reiss: (13:59)
Fundamentally my take and our take at Apollo is that not every business can be an impact business because not every business that is still investible, that does still have good ESG where we think we can drive the type of returns we look to accomplish across our various strategies, demonstrates what we're looking for from an impact business, which would be Fidelity with the IMP five dimensions of impact, in fundamentally doing good things for either people or the planet at its heart. There are plenty of things that we like that are investible that don't help underserved communities. How does cosmetics become an impact business? I struggle but I think we're going to continue to have cosmetics into the future and that's something that's not even.

Megan Starr: (14:43)
I have a differing argument.

Erika Karp: (14:45)
Totally different, sorry.

Megan Starr: (14:46)
We just bought, at Carlyle we just invested in a company called Beautycounter, sorry. Invested about $500 million, billion dollar valuation company, unbelievable founder, Gregg Renfrew. And she is focused on how do you become a differentiated consumer brand by leading the market in green safe ingredients? And in the US we don't have this thing called a precautionary principle, which most European countries have, which means that we have to prove chemicals are safe before we put them in our products. Beautycounter has taken that upon themselves. They have 1,800 ingredients they won't put in their products. They've gone to the mat on issues like mica or palm oil and sourcing sustainable palm oil. And they're focused on this idea of how do you take makeups or cosmetics from just being a consumer product to actually saying, "How can we be at the forefront of sustainability?" Because that's actually driving consumer behavior now. And so that's our differentiated angle.

Megan Starr: (15:38)
And so I agree with you about this. The idea about, I know we're talking about casinos is not every business is an impact business. I think every business has an opportunity to improve on sustainability dimensions that will increase their value. And that doesn't mean if it will be a pure play impact business but I think there's some really interesting things there.

Joanna Reiss: (15:55)
That's where we fall back into what's ESG versus what's impact at least but everyone I've ever met has their own definitions. It's part of the problem.

James Ledbetter: (16:03)
Erika.

Erika Karp: (16:05)
Sustainable investing, it is the systematic analysis of the material, environmental, social and governance issues that go into an investment discussion. That's what sustainable investing is. Impact investing adds two things, the idea of intentionality and then measurability. Those are definitions that we have found very helpful. But I have to tell you, what's so interesting again. I get away from good and bad. I get to investing. The history of sustainable investing was very kind of ideological, sometimes politicized, divisive. The future of sustainability, of impact and sustainable investing is in pragmatism and enhanced analytics. And then it's about the values of asset owners. At Pathstone, we manage about $30 billion for families and foundations and endowments. I can tell you that there's interest in sustainable investing and impact investing ranging from zero, to ranging to all in impact. But it differs for everyone.

Erika Karp: (17:19)
Again, we're talking about these families and foundations. We have clients who are sustainable and impact investors who are invested in tobacco. We have clients that believe that that's a product that if used as designed, it will kill you. We have the clients that have the tobacco and point out that the tobacco plant is a unique manufacturing facility for very interesting drugs and compounds. It's all over the map, just like with Amazon. And by the way, at this conference, we're talking about cryptos and Bitcoin. Arguably Bitcoin is the tobacco of currencies. Think about the carbon emissions and environmental impact of the blockchain system when you mine these Bitcoins. It's going to kill us potentially. Another thing we try to talk about, again, not to be ideological, we talk about the idea of again, pragmatism. As a sustainable investor, do I care more about the negative environmental impact of Bitcoin? Or do I care more about the potentially really positive impact on society access to finance?

Erika Karp: (18:33)
The reason I use these examples is because there is not one definition. It is the wealth owners that we need to be able to have intelligent and non-divisive, nonpolitical conversations when it comes to everything. And also as it relates to sectors or industries where you can or cannot find impact, every investment, every investment whether it's corporate or wealth owners has impact, whether it's good or bad we don't necessarily know but everything has impact. It really is the way to really have impact at scale is to bring in everybody, trillions. That's impacted scale. We need to inform and be transparent and be honest about what we know and what we don't know.

James Ledbetter: (19:25)
Your example about tobacco is so interesting to me. At Worth Magazine, which is owned by Clarim, we recently published an article that went through a little bit of the history of what used to be called socially responsible investing or sin stocks and the filters used to remove them from portfolios like tobacco, alcohol, military contractors, et cetera. What you're suggesting though is that because there is no single definition of either of these terms, ESG or impact, is it the advisor's role to come up with a definition of those things that fit the investment desires of the client? Is that what you're saying? No, you're not saying that.

Erika Karp: (20:12)
No, I'm not saying that. ESG analysis is a discipline. It's the starting point for recommending or not an investment and then aligning it with what the investor wants. That's what I'm supposed to do as an advisor. Transparency, risk analysis, all of this stuff and opportunity. All that's the stuff that we do as advisors.

James Ledbetter: (20:37)
I'm not trying to put you on the spot.

Erika Karp: (20:38)
No, I like it anyway.

James Ledbetter: (20:40)
Would you then endorse the view that a company that sells cigarettes passes the ESG test because of these pharmaceutical links?

Erika Karp: (20:51)
There is no ESG test. And there is no such thing as a good or bad ESG company. It doesn't exist. There is an analytical process. Can we decide if let's use tobacco again, can you invest in a tobacco company that is absolutely committed to transforming itself? Are you comfortable with the magnitude and the pace of transformation? My job is to talk to my clients and find out what are they comfortable with? What are their timeframe? What is their risk appetite? And again, show them and I'm going to give them my opinion. They're going to ask and I will share the opinion but it comes down to objectivity and honesty and transparency.

James Ledbetter: (21:40)
Yep. On the question of data and transparency, one of the trends in impact investing over the last say 10, certainly 20 years has been a big shift from private to public. The overwhelming majority of companies that got ESG or impact investing 15 years ago were private. Now it's something like 15 to 20% are public. It may even be more and the debt component associated with these investments has also become increasingly public. And I have to assume that that trend will continue. This is a question for all of you, how does that affect your job? How does that change your strategy, your returns, your relationship to the investors, the limited partners, or does it? Is it really just the same thing with different tools?

Joanna Reiss: (22:46)
I don't really see an impact to what we're trying to do from the public company side of it. Frankly, as I look to the massive inflows, the renaming of mutual funds to put impact in their name with no real change in strategy, what have you, it just seems like a bit of a completely separate. What is interesting though, is to the extent we as private owners who can actually make the hard decisions, who can actually have that intentionality around impact, transform business models, drive towards positive environmental or social outcomes, what's kind of exciting is if they're big enough, it's clear that there's a great deal of appetite in the public markets for those businesses. But on a day to day basis, it certainly doesn't influence the kind of companies that we're looking for. Just given the same way private markets, public markets there's some overlap but it's not every day.

Megan Starr: (23:39)
I would say it's an increasingly big part of how we think about managing companies under our ownership period because of the exit implications. And so we actually have a massive body of work that is already called ESG for IPO readiness because our companies are exiting through IPOs. We need to be locked up tight across how they think about the material issues for their business, what the story is they're telling to investors around sustainability themes, how they're measuring that.

Megan Starr: (24:07)
We sold a company recently called Liberty Tire and Liberty Tire is fundamentally a recycling company. They're part of the circular economy. Had never identified as being a sustainability company before started dealing in the tire sector. And they recycle about a third of the tires in the US every year. Turn them into really interesting usable materials like the pavement that goes underneath the playgrounds, that actually has a lot of safety characteristics and reduces injuries and pavement for roads, which actually has higher frictions or reduces car accidents. And so there are all these things that were actually core to how they made profit. And so my team at Carlyle actually spend a ton of time with them understanding those impact pathways, understanding the science behind them, helping them measure that. That was a big part of our data room. I was a big part of the kind of sale process and the meetings with equity sponsors because that's an important part of how companies are sourcing deals for their portfolios now.

Megan Starr: (24:58)
I think we've seen it in terms of exit demand, exit multiples and then increasingly cost of capital as we raise financing alongside of those deals.

James Ledbetter: (25:06)
Erika, do you see any difference with the move toward public equity, public debt in transparency and the tools for evaluating these investments?

Erika Karp: (25:15)
Yeah, for us, it's wonderful because we start with our clients creating an investment policy and then we go and do our asset allocation work based on the markets. And then we go and across asset classes, we think about ESG integration. For us, it's it's as it should be. And then given that we think that ESG analysis is such a critical tool to every asset class, this makes all kinds of sense.

James Ledbetter: (25:46)
A couple of you have mentioned employment and the movement toward greater diversity, inclusion and equity as somehow related to the growth in impact investing. I'd like to flesh it out a little more and again, not to put anybody on the spot but the finance industry is not usually the highest rated industry in the DIE world. And frankly, neither is media at my own business. Neither comes out particularly good. But how are your companies tackling this issue both internally and how you evaluate companies that's different than it was just a few years ago?

Joanna Reiss: (26:33)
Well, I think there's clearly an increased mindfulness that is important. Frankly, how ESG integration started was LPs started asking questions and the best way to get a GP to do something is to have an LP ask about it. And so there's some similarities there and frankly, that's a great driver to action and to an appreciation that having a diverse set of viewpoints in the room leads to better outcomes and that there is talent that doesn't look and sound exactly like everyone else. At Apollo, we're very focused on just creating opportunity is how we think about it. And then opportunity comes in a lot of different ways. But as our CEO said, each of us had some lucky break in our career so let's find ways both at our company and through our portfolio companies to create those lucky breaks for other people. And recognizing that some people have more lucky breaks in a given life because of where they start than others and to be mindful of that and to create opportunity.

Erika Karp: (27:28)
I didn't have any lucky breaks. I've been working my ass off for 30 years. You got the interview, the guy thought you were funny.

Megan Starr: (27:40)
I would say, I think the S of ESG etiquette is the next frontier of our work. And I think in the early days we were focused on environmental issues and just realize that companies that can produce a widget using less water, waste, electricity, it's a more efficient business. That's just where we want to be orienting towards. And I think we were in the early innings of realizing that human beings are not just salaries that are reflected in an income statement, they're people. And when you think about productivity and efficiency and engagement and loyalty, those things are massive drivers of business value.

Megan Starr: (28:11)
We have a tech company based in Amsterdam called Dept. It's a digital agency and they're becoming a B corporation, which means they're kind of embedding purpose in their corporate girder. And then when you ask them why, they're a tech company, they don't have a big footprint, they're not manufacturing, they're not worried about health and safety. The answer is their people and talent. And so it's important for them to demonstrate to the market, measure and quantify that they are at the bleeding edge of environmental and social practices because they can attract and retain the highest talent, which is their competitive mode. And so I think there's a bunch of different ways that the S is playing out across different industries from health and safety and more traditional industrial manufacturing. But I think people are starting to realize that the human element has been undervalued, which means it's a source of great potential alpha.

James Ledbetter: (28:58)
Yeah. Certainly one hears it said that gen Z, gen Y plus gen Z is much more likely to want to work for some company with a stronger sense of mission and purpose. I don't know that that's ever really been put to the test but maybe if what you're describing is true, well it won't have to be. I'm curious at the mention of B corporations, just because it's something that I've paid a little bit of attention to lately. How do you think about B corporations? Do you have a bias toward investing in them? Do you follow who is B Corp and who isn't a B Corp? Are there enough companies out there that are kind of close enough the way that some companies don't label themselves organic but kind of play up all the sustainable things that they do? How significant a force are our B Corps in your world?

Megan Starr: (29:58)
I would say B Corps are one of many different frameworks that are driving towards what Erika was talking about. How do we get better quantitative performance data about ESG topics? And so some frameworks are better for other companies. B Corp is a really kind of crisp way to demonstrate to the market that you care about these things, that you're performing well on these dimensions. We have a lot of companies that the most material thing for them is just climate change full stop. And so the TCFD framework might be the right framework for them. But I think what we focused on at Carlyle is that it's not this binary of your B Corp or you're renewable or not. It's that change over time. And so you need data to demonstrate that progress.

Megan Starr: (30:40)
I'd say climate change is one of the most fascinating places, because the story is not just the renewables. The energy transition is a transition across every sector of our economy. And so we've been really focused about traditional energy businesses. They need capital, they need expertise and they need a longterm time horizon so that they can transition into new age energy companies because that's the exit trajectory. And so I think this idea of it's a less about are you this, are you that? And it's more about what are you demonstrating over time that the market is really responding to?

Erika Karp: (31:11)
I should add that remember B corporation is it's a framework. It is not a corporate form. It's not the same thing as being a benefit corporation. That fundamentally is different. And a lot of corporate law has not been established, it's not been written yet. I would argue that some of the most sustainable companies and by the way, some of the most arguably sustainable asset managers that we know don't use ostensibly the frameworks, the labels, nothing. They just do their work and they do it really well in a really conscious way. I've known wonderful hedge fund managers that systematically integrate ESG factors. They don't even know they're sustainable investors but they are. I think B Corp again, it's a great framework and it's needed as we make progress but it's not the end all be all. There's no silver bullet.

Joanna Reiss: (32:10)
What I think you're touching on is kind of one of the fundamental challenges ahead of us, which is that there's no gap or IFRS for ESG for impact. And so if you are, I sympathize with an LP. They invest in this fund, this fund and this fund. They've got three apples, four oranges and a banana and they don't know what to make. And they don't know what to make of any of this. That is kind of one of the ways to try to tackle it. What's the BIA score? What's your TCFD, what have you? But we haven't had the emergence of a single gap like measure.

James Ledbetter: (32:46)
Should there be? Would it be a more efficient system if such industry standards existed?

Joanna Reiss: (33:00)
I don't think so.

Erika Karp: (33:00)
But we're getting there. The SEC is actively thinking about what do we do with regard to disclosure of material factors. And by the way, this isn't semantics. When we think about climate change and the systemic financial risk of climate change, that's real. That is something that we need disclosure on. It's going to affect outcomes. And so again, this is not ideological.

Joanna Reiss: (33:18)
But at the same token, if you imagine two public companies, one a services business, one a manufacturing business, their P and L's look very different but they have basically the same items on them. How would their ESG statement, what is relevant? How do you compare? And how do you know what to make of the fact that the carbon intensity of the accounting consultancy is so much lower? Does that mean the industrial business is doing bad? Well, worse than it could or that the consultancy is doing better than it should? We don't really know which goes back to the challenge of compensability and also figuring out for any given business what actually matters and whether they control them.

Megan Starr: (34:11)
I actually disagree. I think we're going to see it pretty soon. And your point is well taken of there's a barbell to data. There are some data points that matter across all industries, all sectors for diversity, board level oversight of ESG issues, carbon emissions, you have to compare it by industry but we need to know kind of climate positioning. And there's some metrics that matter to specific industries and SASB, one of the frameworks has done a great job of drilling down. Total recordable injury rate for heavy manufacturing. And I really think the market, the investing world has to solve that from within of converging on some data points that we will track in the same way, using the same normalization metrics because we need that. You need head count, you need enterprise value, you need revenue, you need industry and some metrics by industry because we need that data otherwise, we're going to keep splintering in different directions.

Megan Starr: (34:59)
And I've used this data point before but my team in one week this summer, I got 37 ESG DDQs from investors. They were all different. And so the amount of data we're actually able to provide back to those in a meaningful way, that's just a silly use of energy and resourcing. And so I think solving the problem collectively within the investment industry will lead to performance based, quantitative, comparable and frankly, useful data. But it's going to take us actually bringing down the kind of competitive walls and doing that together.

Erika Karp: (35:30)
That's dead on. And I should say, we haven't gotten an RFP for advisory service that doesn't have something about ESG in it for ages. And we're getting questions about our own firm. And when we vet asset managers, we consistently ask about ESG and diversity data. We have to understand what their thought process is, how do they kind of systematically integrate? And this is a big change and it's good change.

James Ledbetter: (36:03)
Not to make it too complicated but because we're talking about climate change, shouldn't there be international standards for company reporting?

Erika Karp: (36:10)
Yeah, there will be but we've still got a lot of work to do.

Joanna Reiss: (36:14)
Well, even on the employment side, there is a very US centric context under which we're talking about this. If you ask the same question in even in countries in Europe, what constitutes that diverse? Is very different. And so are we going to address that? How do we have enough specificity that we get information that leads to better outcomes? What is our actual goal here? I think our actual goal needs to be driving towards better outcomes, not be another 300 page SEC rule that leaves us with the information that's not terribly useful.

Erika Karp: (36:52)
This is about transparency ultimately.

Joanna Reiss: (36:53)
Absolutely.

James Ledbetter: (36:55)
With only about three minutes left, I'd like to look a little bit toward the future. Tell me what trends you see now that you think are going to accelerate over the next two to three years in this space? Meg, why don't you go first?

Megan Starr: (37:09)
I think one of my favorite trends in the ESG and impact world is dynamic materiality. What is relevant today is not going to be necessarily what's relevant two years from now. Think MeToo was a really interesting moment of prior to that, I'm not sure people were going through legal documents with a spine to the comb about what happens if there's an issue and how you do background checks. These issues emerge and have moments and then they become priced in and become part of how we do business. And so I think there is always something that is emerging and so this idea of how do you look around corners see what's coming next? I think we've been really focused on mental health across our portfolio. We have almost a million portfolio company employees and how do you start thinking about some of these other drivers of wellness and productivity?

Megan Starr: (37:56)
We're really focused on human rights and supply chains, which have been really coming to the surface recently and then really focused on climate change and not just in the energy sector but that is kind of spilling across all layers of the economy. And we call it the net zero virus where more than half of global AUM has promised to have net zero carbon emissions by 2050 or sooner. Half of global emissions are covered by regulatory regimes that are mandating net zero. It's not just about the individual companies, they're pushing it up their supply chain, down their supply chain. And so it doesn't really matter what industry you're in, you're going to start feeling the pricing pressure and getting in front of that will be a major driver of financial return.

James Ledbetter: (38:37)
Joanna.

Joanna Reiss: (38:38)
I think we are, as we see specifically the interaction between the institutional investor and asset managers, we definitely see a lot of people who are relatively new to the party, who are building out their practice, who are defining for themselves what it is that they're looking to accomplish and starting to dip their toe in it with a subset of our PE allocation, we're focused on impact what have you. I think as we hopefully prove out the viability that it's non-concessionary, and prove this out in a way to many investors who have a bit of skepticism, they will see a continued inflow of focus onto this, especially because of all the dynamics Meg just so ably described, all those are secular tailwinds to a company that's going to be owned in an impact fund. I think we're going to see strong performance from this entire vintage, knock on wood, and a continued focus on the part of allocators.

James Ledbetter: (39:38)
Erika, you get the last word in the last 30 seconds.

Erika Karp: (39:41)
I actually think the trends in sustainable and impact investing are the same as the broad trends in the capital markets. Impact measurement is one I can see with the themes on climate, on diversity, on food systems, on healthy oceans. Those are the same. What I would also add is that not many people these days yet are talking about quantum computing. And so even if we're talking five or 10 years from now, the applications of quantum computing and ultimately achieving the sustainable development goals are huge. And so I think we need to be talking about that as it relates to access to all those sustainable development goals.

James Ledbetter: (40:24)
That'll be our panel for next year. I would like the audience to join me in thanking this fabulous panel.

Megan Starr: (40:30)
Thank you.

Out Leadership: Driving Return on Equality | #SALTNY

Out Leadership: Driving Return on Equality with Rufus Gifford, Chief of Protocol of the United States (Nominee).

Moderated by Todd Sears, Chief Executive Officer, Out Leadership.

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MODERATOR

SPEAKER

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Rufus Gifford

62nd United States Ambassador to Denmark (2013-2017)

Headshot - Sears, Todd - Cropped.jpeg

Todd Sears

Founder & Principal

Out Leadership

TIMESTAMPS

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Rufus Gifford: (00:00)
Good day Todd.

Todd Sears: (00:08)
How are you?

Rufus Gifford: (00:09)
I'm good. I'm good.

Todd Sears: (00:09)
You hear the one about the former gay banker and the former gay ambassador I just spoke in the SALT Conference?

Rufus Gifford: (00:14)
How did that one turn out?

Todd Sears: (00:15)
I guess we'll see. Well, I want to thank Joe and Anthony and the whole team at SALT for having us today. Really, really excited to be here. This is the third time I've gotten to speak at SALT Conference and I dragged my buddy Rufus here.

Rufus Gifford: (00:27)
My first.

Todd Sears: (00:29)
Hopefully not your last.

Rufus Gifford: (00:30)
Hopefully not my last. And certainly the first time I've been in a room full of so many people in 20 months now. So it feels pretty damn good to be honest with you. So thanks for having us.

Todd Sears: (00:40)
Little social distancing, though.

Rufus Gifford: (00:41)
Indeed, indeed, indeed.

Todd Sears: (00:43)
So we figured we'd just start with a little bit of a level set in terms of the world of LGBT equality in business.

Todd Sears: (00:49)
Even 90% of them were financial. So I thought, "Well, why is the financial services institution, wouldn't we service this really opportunity market." And so I put together a plan and we brought in almost $2 billion in the first four years. And that was exciting because I got to keep my job, but I also got Merril to support the gay community because I proved it was a business opportunity.

Todd Sears: (01:07)
And so fast forward, when I started Out Leadership 10 and a half years ago, you did not see CEOs using their economic platform to advocate for equality. You did not see companies signing on to any of these bills or these collective actions. And so I wanted to start that platform. I looked at Davos World Economic Forum, saw Milken and I thought, "Could I create that for LGBTQ equality?" And so we did. So we're now the first and only global LGBT business organization. We have about 700 CEOs, some of whom are here today, Dan Loeb and others, who have spoken at our summits and supported our work in New York, London, Hong Kong, Paris, Sydney. We have 91 companies that are members, and using that collective action we've been able to convene investor statements in places like North Carolina or Indonesia on LGBT equality as a business imperative.

Todd Sears: (01:51)
And so from a Rufus perspective, we had the pleasure of meeting many years ago when he was ambassador in Europe, and so I want to flip it to you. I think we jokingly say that we're accidental activists in the sense of we've taken a business platform or a political platform and use it to advocate for equality. As one of the first openly gay ambassadors, give us your take on that slash growing up.

Rufus Gifford: (02:10)
Yeah, I think the personal journey is so connected, you used the term accidental activist, which is what I think both of us are. And I still don't consider myself an activist, I just consider myself to be honestly grounded. I never lie about who I am. And I think one of the things we forget about if you are an LGBT person in the workplace, and you know all this data, and we'll get into that in a second, but so many of us were closeted. And, despite the fact that I was closeted in my twenties in the workplace, in the latter stages of my career I've always been very open, and I've had very public facing jobs. And what I think you realize is that it really makes a difference.

Rufus Gifford: (02:54)
So I'm going to talk about this in two different ways, I think. So my dad when I was a kid, I came out at 18, and my dad at the time was a CEO of a bank in Boston, it was a Bank Boston at the time and fleet after that, and I grew up in a fairly conservative and somewhat homophobic household, not religious, but just didn't really understand what this meant when their son came out of the closet. This led my parents to go on this really intense journey personally, but also as a business leader, and I think that that was really interesting, both as a family, as his son. My dad back in the nineties was going to his board of directors as CEO of Bank Boston and asking for support for the board for domestic partnerships, and if you all know a domestic partnership, this would feel like a draconian idea now, this was just about providing health insurance to same-sex partners of your employees, and actually got voted down initially, meaning the board of directors was like, "There's no way in hell that we're doing that."

Rufus Gifford: (03:56)
And this is not that long ago. This is 25 years ago, something like that. But I think if you asked my father, did this make a difference in his life and for his bank, for the corporate culture that existed afterwards after that advocacy for equality, which only had to do with the fact that his son, not only, I mean this is obviously part of the value set that was somewhere inside, but it was because of the honesty, it was because of that sharing of stories that allowed for this larger conversation to take place culturally. And I like to tell that story because I do think it really matters.

Rufus Gifford: (04:35)
And then separately from that, I think as I grew, and I was nominated by president Obama to serve as the US ambassador to Denmark in 2013, the same sort of thing happened. I think when you all think Denmark, you think progressive, you think their internal journey or domestic journey as it relates to LGBT equality is sort of over. But the truth of the matter is the fact that an American representative would be public facing about his marriage to his husband actually mattered there, mattered culturally. It was something that they were very curious about.

Rufus Gifford: (05:14)
And I think that when you are in a position of leadership, like so many people in this room are, you're leaders in whatever industry that you're here representing, for you to take an active leadership role really does matter, and people listen, and I think that's what is always underestimated. And we could tell a million stories about how that came to be, but it's been very, very meaningful and I never thought that I would be considered to be an LGBT activist in any way. I've just tried to do my job like you have, and then you realize just there's so much work to be done.

Todd Sears: (05:54)
I want to key on a couple of things you said. First of all, it's being out and visible, the fact that people are out as leaders, as ambassadors, as bankers, as lawyers, as people in humanity, matters significantly. And yet I think if we took a poll in the audience, you would probably think that most people would assume that with marriage equality passing that all the issues are gone, that there are no issues for LGBTQ people in the United States or around the world, and that's patently false, and we can talk a little bit about that. But the second thing was just your father, and I've had the pleasure of meeting your parents several times. And something that Rufus didn't mention was his parents actually wrote an op-ed in one of the Boston newspapers around marriage equality supporting it and marched in the Gay Pride Parade.

Todd Sears: (06:32)
And I had the opportunity to interview them at an event in Boston many years ago. And there were so many employees who were from Bank Boston and Bank of America, and literally came to that event specifically to thank Chad for being a leader and an ally, and said exactly what Rufus said in a different way, that his dad's allyship mattered for their career, for their life, for their ability to feel like they could be out at work.

Todd Sears: (06:54)
And if you think about being out, or covering, we like to talk about the idea that you hide aspects of who you are in an environment, I know there was a panel on diversity and talent a little bit ago, people don't bring their whole selves, whatever that is. It's not just LGBTQ people. And if you can't bring your whole self, then you're losing, and your company's losing.

Rufus Gifford: (07:10)
And I was just going to follow up on that to Todd. So you have such incredible data. I mentioned that my father's board of directors voted down domestic partnerships 25 years ago. And I think a lot of us think that the actual equality, this conversation was called The Return On Equality, don't LGBT people have full equality right now? And I think lots of people think that that is in fact true after we have marriage. But talk about some of the data that actually exists, especially inside the workplace, that your organization Out Leadership has really been driving so much of this research and data.

Todd Sears: (07:51)
Well, just take a very simple one, what percentage of employees are still in the closet in the workplace in the United States today? 52%. How many companies have a 100% on the HRC Human Rights Campaign, Corporate Equality Index? Over 680. So there's this Delta there's difference between policy and culture. So it's not just about having the policies inside your company, but at a state level, there are 181 anti LGBTQ bills in 31 state legislatures currently. Some state legislatures have more than one bill under consideration. The Texas one for a good example would actually make parents guilty of child neglect if they support gender affirming surgery for their trans or gender non-conforming kid, and their kid could be taken away from them.

Todd Sears: (08:32)
There are massive challenges that still exist all across the United States. In 67 countries around the world, it is still illegal to be LGBTQ in one way, shape or form. And in about a quarter of those countries, you can be imprisoned or killed. And from my framework, in all of those countries we do business. So if you can leverage the economic power that you have by walking into a room in Singapore, where by the way it is still illegal to be gay, 377A is still on the books, if you can leverage your economic power to say to the minister of family, or the monetary authority of Singapore, or any other business organization, that gay people should actually be allowed to enter the country with their legally married partner because that matters to your business, that's how you can drive change.

Todd Sears: (09:09)
In a US perspective, you mentioned the boards, just one quick win that we've had recently. Hopefully everyone here saw the NASDAQ win for the SEC and the requirement of board diversity. Out Leadership worked with NASDAQ over the last year using our quorum data, which is an LGBTQ board program we have, to actually make sure that the NASDAQ's proposal to the SEC included LGBTQ people in the definition of board diversity. There are only 17 companies in the entire fortune 500 that include LGBTQ people in that definition of diversity. And by our very, very scientific count because it's not disclosed, so we basically just have to sort of hunt and peck and figure it out, there are 29 out board members out of 5,670, which is about 0.02%. Now it's not about a percentage, but I would make the case that if between 10 and 30% of the US population identifies as LGBT, we should have more out board members at that point.

Todd Sears: (10:00)
So there's a lot that's happening. And from a government perspective, I think I would argue that business often leads government.

Rufus Gifford: (10:08)
I think without a doubt on issue after issue, I obviously won't make this conversation political, none of us have any interest in that, but obviously regardless of the political trends that exist, and obviously we're in a rocky political time domestically, the private sector really has been driving progress here. And my work has been on the political side, on the government side, but when you see the evolution of where the business community has gone here, it is truly remarkable. And I will say though, that is connected to, I think that allowing people to tell their stories and be publicly out, does very much help drive that progress. And obviously allowing us to have this conversation with corporate leaders here and asking you to be allies alongside us really does matter too.

Rufus Gifford: (11:08)
When I was ambassador, I think one of the things that's very interesting is that although I served with a number of other openly gay ambassadors, the vast majority of the other openly gay ambassadors would leave their same-sex spouses at home at official events. There were a number of different reasons why, very often it was because their countries didn't recognize their relationship as legal, or some other reason, it could just be because they didn't feel comfortable.

Rufus Gifford: (11:37)
Frankly, I could never have left my husband at home to go meet the queen, I would have gotten divorced, like probably many of your spouses would feel the same way. So I always brought him with me, and that action, which is like the most normal thing in the world, became something that allowed young gay kids in the rural countryside of Denmark, where there is actually still homophobia, write me messages on Twitter or Instagram or Facebook, or write the letters being like, "Thank you." Or parents writing me letters saying, "Thank you for telling your story. Thank you for just being a simple role model and making us understand that this world can be safe and happy and positive and successful for young LGBT people."

Rufus Gifford: (12:20)
And I think both from an LGBT perspective, from openly gay people, but also from an allies' standpoint, all that stuff really, really does matter.

Todd Sears: (12:30)
So let's talk about allies for a second, because I think a lot of companies now have ally programs that are tied to their LGBTQ or diversity inclusion initiatives. And in my work with a lot of CEOs around the world, I kind of get the, "Okay, just give me the five things I need to know. I've got 10 minutes to talk about the gay thing, then I'm going to go back to work."

Rufus Gifford: (12:46)
Give me the shorthand.

Todd Sears: (12:47)
And so Out Leadership have actually published some ally research this last year called Ally Up. And we surveyed 5,000 respondents from 11 countries, really distilled down what LGBTQ people need from their allies and what allies think they're supposed to be doing. And there's this disconnect there. And the number one thing that I say to allies is that they have to come out as well. So people always ask, "When did you come out? So Rufus when did you come out? First time.

Rufus Gifford: (13:12)
1993, I was 18 years old, and I'm 47 now. Been out for almost 30 years.

Todd Sears: (13:18)
We both came out at 18. I'm significantly younger than Rufus is.

Rufus Gifford: (13:21)
Not really.

Todd Sears: (13:24)
But coming out is a constant process, every time I travel, I have to decide, do I come out? Every time I go into a conference room in accompany, I have to decide, do I come out? And your LGBTQ colleagues and friends and neighbors, et cetera, have to do the exact same thing. Coming out is a constant process for gay people. There is never one time. And you have to make that decision. And that actually makes us incredibly great empathetic leaders because we read a room, we walk into a room and have to read it for psychological safety, are these people going to be okay if they find out I'm gay? And so from an ally perspective, when I say allies have to come out, you have to tell us that you were an ally, otherwise, unfortunately, there's this psychological term called the Assumption of Negative Intent, which means that gay people will think that you are not an ally unless you tell us otherwise.

Todd Sears: (14:06)
And there are great reasons for that, including the laws that I just mentioned earlier. There is a lot of discrimination that still exists against LGBTQ people, primarily religious based issues. And so you do have to come out as an ally and you have to come out constantly.

Rufus Gifford: (14:20)
Without a doubt. And I think about this everyday, you mentioned this, I'm very comfortable in my own skin, here we are sitting at SALT Conference talking about the fact that we're gay, but I still have that internal dialogue when I walk into a new room. And that's the anxiety of the 16 year old, who was very, very ashamed of who he was, continues to come out. And so I go through that in every new situation that I'm in. And frankly, you mentioned sort of countries around the world where the same sex relationships are still criminalized, and hopefully in my next chapter will have a global job, and I will be protected by the US government in every way, but this will still be in the back of my mind every single time I am engaging with world leaders who come from a country where LGBT equality is not where it is in this country or in Western Europe.

Rufus Gifford: (15:18)
Because we have to understand that, that is, and you all should know that, that is what your employees, your LGBT employees, are thinking about when they go into these various scenarios where, whether it's true or not, feel unsafe, might be unsafe. And that that's why we actually have to work together, which is to your point on allyship to achieve equality.

Todd Sears: (15:41)
And leveraging the assets that you have as a company. One of my favorite stories when I had my first Out Leadership Asia Summit in Hong Kong, almost nine years ago, which was the first gay summit ever in Asia, the then CEO of HSBC, Stuart Gulliver hosted the summit, I actually was a co-host, with the CEO of Barclays at the time Anthony Jenkins, and Stuart Gulliver, were co-hosting the first gay summit in Asia, as two straight white CEOs, which was pretty awesome. And at the end of the dinner, there were two screens kind of like these, I guess, and they showed the HSBC Building in Hong Kong. And if you've been to Hong Kong, you know the HSBC Building, it's on the currency, it's like the Empire State Building here in New York.

Todd Sears: (16:15)
And in 37 years, they had never changed the colors of that building from red and white, and the CEO said, "We've got a surprise for you. We think this is important. We want to send a message," and they start playing Rihanna's song, All Of The Lights. And I'm like, "Oh, gay summit. We're going to play Rihanna. Cool." And they showed the screens, and the lights of the building go off, and three seconds later it comes back up in a giant rainbow. And they rewired the entire HSBC Building in the middle of Hong Kong into a giant rainbow and left it up for four nights.

Todd Sears: (16:42)
We later found out it was the single largest precedent HSBC had anywhere in the world that entire year. Well, fast forward, every year they light it for the Out Leadership Summit, and now all their competition do as well. So Hong Kong is a wash with rainbows once a year. And if anybody has Apple TV and the flyover screensaver, if you ever see the Hong Kong at night, it's taken during the Out Leadership Conference, because it's all the rainbows. And if you think about that, that's a simple message. That's a simple symbol, but going back to my Singapore example, the next day, Stuart Gulliver flew to Singapore because he was chair of the monetary authority of Singapore. He had just hosted a gay summit, and now he's in Singapore in closed door meetings with the monetary authority in a country where gay people still are criminalized.

Todd Sears: (17:20)
So the opportunity for you to leverage that soft power that you have is something I would encourage all of you to do. We have a ton of resources from an Out Leadership perspective, our CEO briefs, et cetera, that I would encourage you to take a look at.

Rufus Gifford: (17:30)
And just reiterating what Todd said that the impact that you can have for maybe an employee that is in the closet, that hasn't had the confidence to actually come out, may be out in his private or her private life, but not out in his professional life, that allied leaders, CEOs, not even just CEOs, but any sort of manager, the impacts real.

Todd Sears: (17:54)
I want to do something a little bit different Ruf, we've got just a few minutes left, I want to do a quick little audience participation moment here. I feel like people are maybe on their phones, or maybe not even a fully there. So we've been talking about LGBT rights and equality and, oh, there we go, thanks, Joe. And so I want to do a little bit of a survey. How many of you would say if I came to work at your company, it would totally be okay to be gay or it's totally okay to be gay right here on the room? Just show of hands. How many would you say? Okay, that's pretty good. How many of you say, you know what give it a little bit of time, maybe it's not so cool because we've got folks in Kansas or Tennessee, or all these other places, maybe give it a year? How much do you give like middle of the road? No hands. Okay. So then I'm guessing, but let's still ask, how many of you would say totally don't do it, not cool, can't come out here? Nobody. All right.

Todd Sears: (18:49)
Well, so I want to stress test that a little bit, I want to actually talk to a couple of gay people in the audience and see if that's true for them. So I'm not going to ask for volunteers, Rufus can back me up on this, gay people have this thing we call gaydar. Have you guys heard of gaydar? So it's the ability for gay people to find him point out other gay people. It's just this ability to find gay people through the eyesight. So I'm just going to point out a couple of gay people here in the audience, and I'm just going to ask them. I've got a little... And I'm not going to do that. But I want you to think about if you had any fear in the pit of your stomach, "If he pointed at me, would I be embarrassed? Would I be shamed? Would it be different for me the next day I went back to work.?"

Todd Sears: (19:39)
That's the feeling gay people have every single day when they're in the closet. So as you're going out today, and you're thinking about going back to your office, or going back to your workplace, or going back to your ambassadorship, or going back to the federal government-

Rufus Gifford: (19:50)
And I ended tonight too, because I actually love, first of all, I love that everyone raises their hands when they think that their businesses are a welcoming place for LGBT workers. But. what's the data? Because we didn't actually talk about that.

Todd Sears: (20:05)
Well, technically they're really not. The number one thing that LGBTQ people need allies to do is to actually stand up and say something in a room, in a situation, in a company, et cetera. The number one thing allies think they're supposed to do in a company is go to the gay cocktail. You've got an employee resource group show up and have a drink versus using the platform. That's why this conference matters so much, that's why I'm so grateful that Joe and Anthony invite us to this conference, because I don't know how many times you hear about LGBTQ issues in business conferences, but I bet it's pretty slim. I get to come to a number of which is wonderful, but this isn't a diversity conference, this is a leadership conference, and leadership matters. So I would say making sure that you are coming out as allies, that you are actually making sure that if work for a hedge fund, you have a diversity investment mandate. Do the companies you invest in have diversity on their boards? Bet they do, but I bet they don't have LGBTQ in that definition.

Todd Sears: (20:58)
You've got tons of assets to deploy in the marketplace, use that economic power that you have to make sure that LGBTQ people are represented, that you're not investing in states, for example, where LGBTQ people are marginalized. We have a climate index that Out Leadership has built that we update every single year, and we rank US states on how LGBTQ friendly they are. And there are some really terrible states. And we actually know data-wise that LGBTQ people will leave an LGBTQ unfriendly state to move to more friendly state, and they're willing to give up a third of their compensation to do so. So from an economic argument perspective, you have a massive opportunity to create change.

Todd Sears: (21:35)
BlackRock, for example, just joined Out Leadership. We've had a number of hedge funds, a number of private equity firms. Lloyd Blankfein was our first board member for God's sake. We have a lot of leaders who have used their platforms to help us advocate for this. And I think that would be the ask for both Rufus and I, following this conference, I'd really love for a number of companies that have never been involved to be involved, join Out Leadership, join the coalition of companies that we are creating around the world to advocate for this change and this equality, because it is a business issue.

Rufus Gifford: (22:02)
And I would say in closing, I would say this, for all the progress we have made, and we've made remarkable progress because the board conversation that I referenced in the nineties it's would be unsinkable in the United States these days, maybe not unthinkable, but very unlikely in the United States, certainly at a high level, but the fact is that we are sliding backwards in a number of different ways, not only in certain states in the United States, but also globally. And so there is work to be done. This Fight For Equality, as this panel is called, it can never be over, because the moment you stop fighting for equality is the moment you start losing, as far as I'm concerned.

Todd Sears: (22:42)
So with that, we want to thank you for inviting us. Thank you for listening. Thank you for the participation. Hopefully that was actually stressful a little bit. And Joe and Anthony, thank you for having us.

Rufus Gifford: (22:52)
Thank you.

Todd Sears: (22:52)
Thanks.

Innovation & Inclusion: Why Diversity Yields Better Results | #SALTNY

Innovation & Inclusion: Why Diversity Yields Better Results with Cathie Wood, Chief Executive Officer & Chief Investment Officer, ARK Invest. Jolyne Caruso-Fitzgerald, Divisional Vice Chairman, GWM, UHNW, UBS. Michaela Edwards, Partner & Member, Investment Committee, Capricorn Investment Group. Rupal Bhansali, Chief Investment Officer & Portfolio Manager, International & Global Equities, Ariel Investments.

Moderated by Lisa Diaz, President & Chief Executive Officer, Prince Street Capital.

Powered by RedCircle

 

SPEAKERS

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Cathie Wood

Founder, Chief Executive Officer & Chief Investment Officer

ARK investment Management

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Jolyne Caruso-FitzGerald

Divisional Vice Chairman, GWM, UHNW

UBS

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Michaela Edwards

Partner

Capricorn Investment Group

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Rupal Bhansali

Chief Investment Officer & Portfolio Manager, International & Global Equities

Ariel Investments

 

MODERATOR

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Lisa Diaz

President & Chief Executive Officer

Prince Street Capital

 

TIMESTAMPS

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Lisa Diaz: (00:07)
Good afternoon, and welcome to our panel on Diversity and Inclusion and Innovation.

Lisa Diaz: (00:15)
We're going to outline, today, the reasons that it's interesting to invest in both innovation, as well as inclusion. I'm Lisa Diaz, President, CEO of Prince Street Capital Management. We are an emerging markets innovation fund, and I want to extend a special thanks to Anthony Scaramucci, and John Darsie, as well as Joe Alletto, for organizing and supporting this important panel today.

Lisa Diaz: (00:44)
So, innovation has become a consensus good. The market is thirsty for more innovation as a source of economic returns. Innovation, by its very nature, is about challenging the status quo. It's about finding new solutions to age-old problems, and addressing friction points. In the asset-management business, what's the biggest friction point? How do you generate alpha, and how do you deliver outsized returns?

Lisa Diaz: (01:16)
We believe that diversity, and perspective, insight, experience, and styles provided by women-led managers, and minority managers is an undervalued asset.

Lisa Diaz: (01:30)
A recent Goldman Sachs analysis of portfolio-management performance actually found out that diverse managers outperformed by 100 basis points. Think what that means over decade timeframe. However, in the US, only 3% of total assets are controlled by woman-led firms. That means that 97% of total assets are managed by the traditional power group, AKA, people who have a tendency to have a similar perspective.

Lisa Diaz: (02:06)
So we think that represents an arbitrage because, despite the small numbers, nearly 30% of top quartile managers are, in fact, women. So that's a great opportunity for allocators. We see inclusion as a next big innovation in asset-management business, and we hope that more capital should be allocated to woman-led managers, because it makes economic sense, because it delivers returns.

Lisa Diaz: (02:39)
I am very honored to be here with four trendsetters, innovators, change agents, who have been the forefront of transforming the face of finance.

Lisa Diaz: (02:51)
To my left, Cathie Wood, who is founder, CEO, and CIO of Ark Asset, who blazed a new path dedicated to innovation investing, and has disrupted the asset-management industry through her success in raising over 80 billion dollars in AUM. And now, some of the major mutual fund complexes such as JP Morgan and the American Funds are following Cathy's suit. Pretty impressive.

Lisa Diaz: (03:21)
Next to her left, we have Jolyne Caruso-FitzGerald, who is Divisional Vice Chairman of Global Wealth Management at UBS. She oversees UBS's top advisors who work exclusively with global ultra [inaudible 00:03:35] net families, and she was a founder of The Alberleen Group, a woman-owned and woman-led boutique investment bank. Before that, she was President and Co-Founder of the $8 billion Andor Capital hedge fund complex, as well as earlier in her career was both a Managing Director at Lehman and JP Morgan Securities.

Lisa Diaz: (03:58)
Next, we have Michaela Edwards, who is Partner and Portfolio Manager at Capricorn Investment Group, one of the largest mission-aligned firms in the world, with over eight billion dollars invested for families, foundations, and institutional clients. Prior to Capricorn, Michaela spent nine years as a Portfolio Manager at Norges Bank, the sovereign wealth fund of Norway, overseeing a $10 billion portfolio.

Lisa Diaz: (04:26)
And finally, we have Rupal Bhansali, who is Chief Investment Officer and Portfolio Manager at Ariel Investments, International Global Equity Strategy. She's a three-time intrapreneur, having founded multimillion dollar international equities capabilities throughout her 30 year career, not once, but three times. Once at Oppenheimer, at MacKay Shields, and now at Ariel Investments.

Lisa Diaz: (04:54)
So this is a rock star group of thought leaders in the industry.

Lisa Diaz: (04:59)
So, to camper off our conversation on innovation inclusion, Cathie, can we start with you? I would love for you to share your thoughts on innovation as Ark Investment has literally created a new asset class, and has harnessed the power of ETFs, and evolved the thinking with [inaudible 00:05:18], and coming up with a new set of KPIs.

Lisa Diaz: (05:20)
So tell us what you're thinking about these days and how you came up with the inspiration for this new asset class.

Cathie Wood: (05:27)
Okay. Well, thank you, Lisa.

Cathie Wood: (05:30)
I started in our business a very long time ago, 1977. I was in college at the time and, I worked at Capital Group and, as many of you know, Capital Group group is known for its in-depth research. And I remember being 1977 and I was put on a project to work with a team focused on Hong Kong, 1997.

Cathie Wood: (06:00)
And I said, I want to be in this business. I want to understand how the world is going to work. Fast forward, great two decades, eighties and nineties, tech and telecom bust, '08, '09, incredible risk aversion, I would say, permeating our industry, and this concept of benchmarks and indexes, directing investors as to how they should invest, and our strategy, which is all about innovation in a traditional asset-management firm was looking more and more like an odd duck and not receiving the support that I thought it should.

Cathie Wood: (06:44)
And I just said, "Okay, there is a huge arbitrage opportunity out there", just what you said in your intro, huge arbitrage opportunity. The private markets are pricing innovation here, sometimes five and 10 times higher than the public markets were willing to price innovation, and I thought, "Okay, starting my own firm would, would be a good way to go."

Cathie Wood: (07:10)
But even more, I think, when I thought, "Well, wait a minute, if you're going to start a firm, why don't you become a little more disruptive than that, and use some of the technologies that have disrupted all these other industries to, at the margin, at least disrupt our industry?"

Cathie Wood: (07:28)
So, social media giving away our research and really doing that to educate, that is one of our missions and values, but also to engage with the communities we're researching, those who are doing the innovating and become a part of those communities. And I have to tell you, I think it's given us an enormous competitive edge, because most compliance departments in traditional asset-management firms will not let their portfolio managers or their analysts say anything about their research or their portfolios on social media. We hired someone from the SEC to help us with that, and I think we're on the right side of regulation.

Cathie Wood: (08:16)
It's been enormous, the gratitude we get for the research we share, and for the investment ideas that we share freely, since we disclose our holdings at the end of every day, and we also disclose our trades.

Cathie Wood: (08:33)
So we have a lot of people with their PAs, their personal accounts, looking at what we do today, and other who don't want to do that themselves. They just say, "I'll let you do it, this is your area of expertise."

Cathie Wood: (08:46)
So it's been a wild ride from 15 million dollars in October 2014, to north Of 75 billion, as you said earlier, and very gratifying.

Lisa Diaz: (09:01)
Fantastic. So, Rupal, turning to you, how does integrate innovation into your portfolios at Ariel Investment? And, also, can you talk about, is innovation just the domain of young upstart companies, or do you find companies in your portfolio who are "traditional", who can innovate?

Rupal Bhansali: (09:22)
Well, thank you for that. It's always hard to follow Cathie Woods, on that topic of innovation, but I'll try.

Rupal Bhansali: (09:29)
No, I don't think innovation is a preserve of just upstart companies. I think Cathie makes a fair point that there was an arbitrage between private and public markets.

Rupal Bhansali: (09:39)
I personally believe that a lot of investors got very complacent and did research in a very traditional, backward-looking way. I'm a non-consensus thinker, and I'm a contrarian. So I believe can you actually identify innovation amongst incumbent companies and arbitrage that, by having a long term horizon.

Rupal Bhansali: (10:05)
I think that's the disconnect, sometimes, between the private markets and the public markets. It takes time to generate the payoff from an R&D investment and it takes patience, and that's sometimes lacking in people who invest based on benchmarks and based on tracking errors. I don't.

Rupal Bhansali: (10:24)
So, I think, with that kind of freedom, we've invested in a lot of companies. In a country where people rarely associate that country with innovation because it's known to be a country that's socialist, and of course we identify innovation with capitalism, and yet this country has over-indexed on innovation.

Rupal Bhansali: (10:49)
I'll give you a couple of seconds to think about which country I'm going to mention in the world. I hope it blows your mind. Whenever I talk to my clients, they are stunned by it. So here's the answer: it's France.

Rupal Bhansali: (11:04)
French companies, you look at Airbus, the aircraft that they came up with in terms of the Airbus 330, and the 350, and the whole line, it is giving a run for the money to Boeing.

Rupal Bhansali: (11:16)
Dassault Systemes, they do CAD/CAM software, and even IBM could not produce that kind of software. No American company has produced that kind of heavy duty, three-dimensional software that Dassault does. And I can go company after company. If you think Louis Vuitton is not innovative, you've got something coming in the luxury market, and Hermès, and L'Oreal.

Rupal Bhansali: (11:41)
You look at Proctor and Gamble, L'Oreal has stolen a [inaudible 00:11:45] on P&G in America in the category of shampoos. So, I think innovation can happen anywhere, anyhow, if you put your mind to it, in any sector. And, as an investor, if you think outside the box, which is I really think what Cathie is talking about, you can find opportunity everywhere.

Rupal Bhansali: (12:05)
So we own a lot of these sorts of companies. Safran comes to mind, it's in our portfolio, for example. It came up with a composite material to produce a next-gen aircraft engine. It had to spend billions of euros in R&D in the first 10 years or so, and it wasn't reporting profits from that endeavor, because the revenues not there, but the costs are, like what happens in a Tesla, or it happens in any of these new companies.

Rupal Bhansali: (12:34)
It just happened to be a publicly-listed company. But, now that they've got this product commercial, on the market, you have a 15 years line of sight to the spare parts, aftermarket opportunity, which is their business model.

Rupal Bhansali: (12:48)
So I think if you look for it, you can find it anywhere. And if I can tie it back, therefore, to diversity and inclusion, I think that's what it's all about. If you know how to look for it, you'll find it everywhere. And what you'll actually find is that diverse people tend to be the most innovative because they've got to be, they've been left behind. And so, for them, it's differentiate or die.

Rupal Bhansali: (13:11)
And so I think if allocators want to get a piece of innovation, they should back diversity. It comes full circle to inclusion.

Lisa Diaz: (13:21)
A very well spoken point.

Lisa Diaz: (13:23)
So, Michaela, pivoting to the second aspect of this conversation about innovation inclusion. Tell us about your vision to disrupt and transform the asset-management industry, and some of the catalysts that have driven your journey to this point.

Michaela Edwards: (13:41)
Well, thank you for the question.

Michaela Edwards: (13:44)
I would say the under-representation that we have in asset management of both female, but also black and brown investors, really hasn't budged much in the last two decades aids. And, for me, that is something that we need to address, especially on the pipeline side of it.

Michaela Edwards: (14:01)
So, at Capricorn, we've spent over a decade seeding and anchoring new, emerging, early-stage managers, and what we find is really two things: one being that there's a lot of innovation, there's entrepreneurial models that are happening with new managers, and, secondly, I would say is that there's a broader set of representation. So by just being earlier stage, we get a bigger opportunity set. It's less efficient, but also you get the opportunity to partner with the likes of Cathie Woods and the Rupals of the world, early on.

Michaela Edwards: (14:42)
And on that, we really want to partner with these new fund managers. We want to bring them to scale, so that we can crowd in other institutional investors, and, hopefully, we will, at some point, get an industry that is representative of the world that we live in.

Lisa Diaz: (14:57)
I sure hope so.

Lisa Diaz: (14:58)
So, Jolyne, given your role at UBS overseeing the firm's top advisors who serve large family offices, can you offer perspective from your client base as it relates to the issue of female founders, both as fund managers and business owners, do they have a different perspective?

Jolyne Caruso-Fitzgerald: (15:19)
So I am actually thrilled to be up here, and, Lisa, thank you for... I have a very different background than my colleagues on the stage, so I'd like to offer it from the family office perspective because we've done, at UBS, a lot of analysis around this and for the family offices in the room, thank you for leading, and this will resonate with you as I'm speaking, for sure.

Jolyne Caruso-Fitzgerald: (15:41)
So I think this actually might be a watershed moment where family offices, who have grown in stature, and wealth in buying power, influence in the investment community, this is the moment for you all to make the change. And there's four reasons why I think this could be a very pivotal moment for this challenging issue that I've been facing for three and a half decades in my career. One, it's the family office's global wealth increasing.

Jolyne Caruso-Fitzgerald: (16:13)
We saw family office assets soar. They're getting wealthier, they're getting more influential. The second trend is the institutionalization of the family office. You are all so smart. You are disintermediating Wall Street, you are doing deals, you are seating managers, you are clubbing direct investments into private companies. That whole trend gives you tremendous power to actually move the needle, and you are.

Jolyne Caruso-Fitzgerald: (16:42)
I think the third thing, which I will talk about a little bit more, hopefully, later in the conversation is we are in the midst of somewhere, depending on who you ask $30-60 trillion generational wealth transfer. Well, guess what? That is disproportionately going to women. We have all the statistics on that.

Jolyne Caruso-Fitzgerald: (17:01)
And the fourth issue, tied to that, is how do women invest? How do millennial women, how do next-gen women invest? They're investing with purpose. We have the stats on this, 65% of our family offices that we surveyed in our global family office report, have said that they are investing with ESG principles. And that that is going to constitute 25% of their asset allocation within the next five years. When I look at the confluence of these four factors, I say, "Bring it on."

Jolyne Caruso-Fitzgerald: (17:38)
The family offices are the ones that actually can change the equation here. Seed hedge funds that are started by women, seed direct women-owned businesses that are increasingly solving global issues. Put your buying power here, and I see it happening and I'm super excited about it.

Lisa Diaz: (18:02)
That's incredibly exciting and encouraging. So can we go back through history? Cathie, when you were starting Ark, there was this whole emerging manager programs that we've all heard lots about. I think it's been a focus of New York state in particular. What was your personal experience, and were they some of the big underwriters when you were just starting out on this vision to pursue innovation?

Cathie Wood: (18:28)
Not at all. Sorry.

Cathie Wood: (18:32)
No, what happened is the institutional world, which these consultants serve had gone, also had gone, the consultant world, had moved towards benchmarks, and we looked absolutely out of our minds. And so just too volatile, too radical. So, they were interested, because it was daring, they thought, but they could never come around, and I understand it. It's the world they grew up in. So I'm just happy I grew up more in the seventies, eighties, nineties, when I knew that, and this might sound a little cheeky, but when I was describing what I wanted to do, what I felt was missing in the investment world, when it came to innovation, certainly, someone not even in the business said to me, "Oh, so you mean the future of investing is investing in the future?" And I said, "Yes! Yes! Benchmarks are backwards looking."

Cathie Wood: (19:45)
And if, as we believe, there are four major innovation platforms that are going to transform, we think, every industry out there, and the convergence of those technologies is going to be very confusing, but is going to present explosive growth opportunities. We had to go out and go social to get our message out.

Cathie Wood: (20:12)
They understood much more than the consultants who were anchored to these benchmarks. And I think that anchor is going to become a dead weight if they don't watch out.

Lisa Diaz: (20:27)
So you didn't fit in the box?

Cathie Wood: (20:28)
I didn't fit in any box.

Lisa Diaz: (20:29)
You didn't fit in any box?

Cathie Wood: (20:30)
No.

Lisa Diaz: (20:31)
So you created your own box, or your own canvas?

Cathie Wood: (20:34)
Yes. And, just on that, I'm going to credit MSCI.

Cathie Wood: (20:38)
In 2018, MSCI actually came to us and said, "It seems as though what you're doing here is creating a new asset category."

Cathie Wood: (20:52)
I won't say asset class, but much like the emerging markets they moved from, they helped in invent, I suppose, the investability of emerging markets by combining countries in one portfolio. That seemed radical and transformational at the time. Well, we're doing the same with innovation, and the correlations among these 14 technologies involved in these five platforms is not that high, surprisingly.

Lisa Diaz: (21:25)
Which is exciting.

Lisa Diaz: (21:26)
So, Rupal, you've also been hugely successful. So, globally, the number is even more disturbing. Only 1.3% of total global assets are run by diverse managers. You are one of them.

Lisa Diaz: (21:42)
So tell us, what was your own path and experience with being in the DEI space? Did you get encouragement? Were there certain pockets that were supportive? Tell us the story.

Rupal Bhansali: (21:57)
Well, I think I get asked this question a lot. What does it feel like to be one of the rare female portfolio managers? And the only answer I can give is, not successful, or great, or gratified. It feels lonely.

Rupal Bhansali: (22:16)
There should be more of us, and I think that's what needs to change. And I've said this five years ago, and 10 years ago, and 20 years ago, and the clock is ticking, and I think the numbers don't move, and I think that's the travesty.

Rupal Bhansali: (22:35)
But I do believe that the future is going to look very different from the past, and there is going to be a disruption of a different sort in our industry, which is to say, it's been easy to invest passively, and not think about it, because markets have gone up. A bull market, you can suspend your thinking and just go long and think that you are skilled, even if you're just lucky, but I don't think the next decade or the decade thereafter, it's going to be that easy to make money passively. Valuations in the markets are sky high and you really got to curate your portfolio.

Rupal Bhansali: (23:20)
You got to pick your spots, and those are the kinds of things that I think people on this side of the table tend to do. We pick our spots, we don't just lean on a benchmark and accept whatever it brings to us. We differentiate from it, we actually stand out.

Rupal Bhansali: (23:39)
And I think when it comes to, therefore, picking managers, not just picking asset-losses, people will have to think outside the box there too, because the incumbents have really just hugged the benchmark and it's been fine, and so have the allocators, and that's fine, because the benchmarks just kept going up. But when they don't, and they actually start coming down and you have what I call, for the first time, potentially, a protracted bear market, which we frankly never had for 70 years. We've had quick ones, we've had short-lived ones, but we've never had a protracted one.

Rupal Bhansali: (24:21)
Now I cover global equities, and I can tell you, I covered Japan, tortuous. Try going passive, investing in a market that's falling. You'll have your head handed to you. And I think that the US markets, and every Western market, like we went through in many other markets in the world that have done nothing but fall, if they simply stop thinking, all you experience is losses.

Rupal Bhansali: (24:51)
So in investing, ignorance is not bliss, it's loss. So I think they will wake up to reality that they need to do things differently. And part of that means looking for new blood, and new blood happens to be diverse. It's not pale, male, and stale. It's usually female, and I think that's what's going to turn the numbers, partly, because they will have no choice.

Rupal Bhansali: (25:21)
That said, I think if they are smart about it, they will try to get ahead of that curve, because one of the things about active management is that it's capacity gated. Try getting into Cathie's funds, now, at 70 billion compared to when she was at 10 or 15 million, as she started out. It's harder and harder to put that money to work. So you need to get in early, and part of that means trying to identify that talent early on.

Rupal Bhansali: (25:50)
That is the market inefficiency that allocators can exploit, and should exploit, if they're smart about it. But as they say, if you want to move the mouse, you got to move the cheese, otherwise a mouse ain't moving. So I think allocators, if they are serious about ESG, DEI, all these buzzwords being thrown about, they need to set targets, and they need to have consequences for meeting them or missing them. There haven't been any and nobody got fired for hiring IBM.

Rupal Bhansali: (26:32)
That's what's playing out in our industry, and look what happened in technology. I think a lot of people eventually did get fired for hiring IBM, and they would be well enough to learn from that industry into ours. Our industry is facing massive disruption, massive change, and people are in denial about it.

Rupal Bhansali: (26:52)
So I would just suggest: create targets, measure them, hold people accountable for both meeting them and missing them, and that's how you move the mouse to the cheese.

Lisa Diaz: (27:04)
Sounds like a great idea.

Lisa Diaz: (27:05)
So, Michaela, can you talk to us? What are some of the hurdles that less-established managers face when being considered by larger institutions? And can you think about how you changed the criteria used to enable, to facilitate investment, in this next generation of thought leaders and investors?

Michaela Edwards: (27:26)
Absolutely.

Michaela Edwards: (27:27)
I think Rupal is spot on. There needs to be innovation in our industry, and that means the traditional way of allocating clearly hasn't worked for representation. And we all know the three major hurdles, they tend to be track, record, scale or size, and pedigree. If you don't have a minimum of a three year, or, hopefully, a five year track record, or a minimum of a hundred million under assets, assets under management, and hopefully a name brand or two on your resume, either a school or a firm, you don't check the box.

Michaela Edwards: (28:02)
So you get screened out. Now, when people look at a track record, I feel that they use that as a proxy for scale, we're saying, "Okay, I see the track record, there must be some skill here and not just luck."

Michaela Edwards: (28:16)
Well, I think that's an easy way out. I think performance is an outcome of people and process, and that's on the allocator side, that we really need to do the job of identifying differentiated talent, differentiated process, so hopefully, we can estimate that there's a probability of outperformance. And not only probability of outperformance, but a repeatability of that outperformance. That's the allocator job, and not being willing to do that, I think you leave a lot of alpha on the table by not being early.

Michaela Edwards: (28:51)
And when it comes to scale, what we found to be a good solution for a lot of our big-ticket clients, is to take a portfolio approach. A lot of our big allocators can't allocate to a hundred million dollar fund, but they want to get in. They want to be in the new startups, but they can't make the single ticket themselves. So if you can create a fund structure or a separate managed account, you can get around that.

Michaela Edwards: (29:18)
So if you find a compelling strategy, a team that you believe in, there's ways around it, if you're willing to. And then last, on pedigree, I would say, of course, it's easy to tick the box and you find comfort in name brands, but at the same time as Rupal was pointing out, I think there's a lot to be said for cognitive diversity, and especially for innovation.

Michaela Edwards: (29:44)
You need creative solutions. And around that, I would say just working for a company that's B corporation. We have half of our firm from other countries, globally. We have 50% women. I see it every day, the benefit of diversity of thought and of experiences, and that it leads to creative solutions and bold decision making.

Michaela Edwards: (30:06)
I want that tension in the room of different views, I think that leads us to better decisions. So, I think, instead of just talking about the risk factors of going early, and not having a track record, et cetera, I would love for us to switch it and say, "Well, what's the opportunity cost of losing out on the five first years of compounding returns?"

Michaela Edwards: (30:27)
That's the cost, and it's not just risk.

Lisa Diaz: (30:30)
So, Jolyne, let's talk to you.

Lisa Diaz: (30:32)
The family office universe seems to be, that could be at the forefront of this evolution and change. They have more flexibility. Often they are, themselves, innovators, they thought differently.

Lisa Diaz: (30:44)
So, can you share some of your numbers about how Millennials generation acts are likely to allocate and how they're going to think about their allocation in this great wealth transfer?

Lisa Diaz: (30:56)
Are they going to be more open to more innovative ways and innovative types of managers?

Jolyne Caruso-Fitzgerald: (31:03)
Yeah, we think so.

Jolyne Caruso-Fitzgerald: (31:05)
We've done a lot of measurement at UBS around family offices. We have an annual survey, and we spend all our time in the ultra, at least I spend all my time in the ultra space, and the global family office space. And I think there are a couple of trends that will help this dilemma and move the needle here.

Jolyne Caruso-Fitzgerald: (31:26)
One, as I mentioned before, this 30-60 trillion that is coming over the next 20 years will go to women. We need to see more women step up in their family offices. The endowment and foundation market has a lot of female CIOs. We don't have as many in the family office. I hope that that will be a seed change, but to speak, specifically, to Millennials, we see a lot of families coming to us, to generation one, saying, "Oh my gosh, my grandchildren, they want to change how we do everything, from philanthropy, the causes we give to." As everyone knows, Millennials are more left leaning, so their politics are very, very different. How will that change?

Jolyne Caruso-Fitzgerald: (32:14)
One: they care about climate. They care, in a post-COVID world, about how women in particular have been affected globally by COVID, disproportionately. They care about social inequity and gender parity. So as we see this cohort, Millennials, by the way, they're 70 million strong, they're actually bigger than the Boomer generation right now, in number.

Jolyne Caruso-Fitzgerald: (32:43)
As we see them grow in their family offices, as they get wealth passed to them, I actually think we're going to see a change in how the money is allocated, who the leaders of the next generation asset managers are.

Lisa Diaz: (33:00)
So finally, we're running out of time, but as four powerful change agents and leaders, if you can each make one specific recommendation or aspiration, what would it be?

Lisa Diaz: (33:13)
So, Cathie, can we start with you?

Cathie Wood: (33:16)
Sure. In terms of, are you talking about for women?

Lisa Diaz: (33:19)
Women to increase the number, so how do we get from 3% to 10%, right Rupal, or maybe 25? We have a couple of ideas?

Rupal Bhansali: (33:29)
10% by 2025, 30% by 2030, and 50% by 2050. We'll give you guys time.

Cathie Wood: (33:41)
Well, I'm on record as saying I've loved being a woman in this business, I have.

Cathie Wood: (33:47)
Because when I started, it was '77, I was in college, quite young, very low expectations, but I had high ambitions and it's easy to surprise if you're willing to put yourself out there, make yourself vulnerable.

Cathie Wood: (34:05)
So the first is, participate, but only if you have really good ideas that actually are questioning the conventional wisdom. And then, in terms of the career itself, make sure you move into a position where you can be measured, for better or worse. So last year was better for us this year, worse. You take your performance with you. No one's going to take that away from me and Ark.

Cathie Wood: (34:33)
And, by the way, I'm not worried about this year's performance, just saying. We have a five year time horizon.

Cathie Wood: (34:38)
And then the third thing is if you want to start your own business, look for a huge unmet need out there. What is missing? And I think there is a lot missing in the financial world right now that innovators come can come in and change.

Lisa Diaz: (34:56)
Sounds good. What about you, Jolyne?

Jolyne Caruso-Fitzgerald: (34:58)
Women have to invest in other women. As we get wealthier, we have to put our money into other women, other successful women.

Lisa Diaz: (35:08)
So money's power?

Jolyne Caruso-Fitzgerald: (35:10)
We haven't always done that, by the way.

Lisa Diaz: (35:13)
Michaela, what about you?

Michaela Edwards: (35:14)
I say set a target and works towards it. Whatever that allocation is, if it's realistic and measurable, you can get there

Lisa Diaz: (35:23)
Rupal, you have some bold numbers. I like numbers.

Rupal Bhansali: (35:28)
Well, we'll come up with a pledge, because I think people need to sign up for these things, and we need to measure them against it. So, stay tuned.

Rupal Bhansali: (35:37)
But I think in terms of suggestions, again, innovation to the rescue. Board members and board seats, women are very underrepresented on corporate boards, even in this country, but worldwide. And one head hunter decided that she would only present female candidates whenever any board search took place to the Nom/Gov committees. And, initially, all she would tell the Nom/Gov chairman and the members of the board is that, "look, let the women go first, if you don't like any of them, I'll present you with a male candidate, but first go check out these women." And there's not been a single instance when she done they've ever had to go back and identify a male candidate.

Rupal Bhansali: (36:21)
So I think there are lessons and parallels here for us too in asset management. Insist on finding diverse managers, tell your consultants, tell your clients, tell whoever it is that you are, "Only find me women, and I won't give you business if you don't find me women."

Rupal Bhansali: (36:38)
That's what happened to the head, that's the mandate she put forward. And suddenly they're able to find all these women. And that's what happened in another shop where the boss was looking to increase diversity in his team. And initially, his own team said, "well, we can't find anybody, we can't, it's not possible. There aren't any." And he said, "Okay, we won't fill the position." Well, the moment he said, "We are not going to fill the position. They were like, "Oh my God, we've got to do all this work." They found a diverse candidate.

Rupal Bhansali: (37:10)
And so I think, sometimes, you just got to draw the line draw, and it's about time.

Lisa Diaz: (37:16)
So it sounds like we need a step change in the asset management industry.

Lisa Diaz: (37:21)
This illustrious group of women are going to create a manifesto, and try to brainstorm on actionable next-step items with metrics and a call to action for you to take advantage of this fantastic opportunity of diverse thinking, innovative thinking, in the next generation.

Lisa Diaz: (37:42)
So thanks everyone, today. This was exciting and we'll be back.

The Future of Alts: Access for All | #SALTNY

The Future of Alts: Access for All with Kelly Rodriques, Founder & Chief Executive Officer, Forge. Milind Mehere, Founder & Chief Executive Officer, YieldStreet. Asiff Hirji, President, Figure.

Moderated by Matt Brown, Founder, Chief Executive Officer & Chairman, CAIS.

PRESENTED BY

 

Powered by RedCircle

 

SPEAKERS

Headshot - Rodriques, Kelly - Cropped.jpeg

Kelly Rodriques

Chief Executive Officer

Forge

Headshot - Mehere, Milind - Cropped.jpeg

Milind Mehere

Chief Executive Officer

Yieldstreet

 
asiff-hirji.jpeg

Asiff Hirji

President

Figure

MODERATOR

Headshot - Brown, Matt - Cropped.jpeg

Matt Brown

Founder, Chief Executive Officer & Chairman

CAIS

TIMESTAMPS

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Matt Brown: (00:07)
Why don't we just kick off with just some brief introductions. Kelly, why don't we start with you?

Kelly Rodriques: (00:11)
Right. I'm-

Matt Brown: (00:13)
Yeah, please.

Kelly Rodriques: (00:14)
I'm Kelly Rodriguez, CEO of Forge. Forge is a marketplace for buying and selling private stocks. We have some big news that we announced today. But we are building access and solving the problems around transparency, data, and access to the private markets.

Matt Brown: (00:37)
Great, Kelly. Thank you. Milind?

Milind Mehere: (00:40)
Yeah. Hi, everybody. My name is Milind Mehere. I'm the founder and CEO of YieldStreet. YieldStreet is the alternative digital platform, really transforming access and fractionalization of alternatives for all. And what you can do on our platform, it's a direct to consumer platform, really get access to alternatives and modernize your portfolio from the 60/40 trap.

Asiff Hirji: (01:06)
Hi, I'm Asiff Hirji. I'm the president of Figure. I've been an investor, operator, founder of fintechs for a long time, did a robo-advisor in [inaudible 00:01:14], was partner at Andreessen and TPG, ran Ameritrade for a number of years, ran Coinbase for a couple of years through its high growth period. What we're doing at Figure is we're basically trying to transform financial services, or at least prove you can transform financial services, through blockchain. So, we've built a series of businesses on blockchain, including lending, cap table management, primaries, et cetera. And our whole goal is to get the industry to adopt

Matt Brown: (01:36)
Great, guys. Let's get into it. I really want this to be a dialogue. I want this to be a conversation. Really thinking about anticipating what your questions are. Access to alternative investments, hedge funds, private equity, real estate, pre-IPO, Kelly, has been historically reserved for large institutional investors. In recent years, though, democratization of those products and asset classes I've really taken off. What is driving the momentum? Where's this coming from? What are the implications of it? Kelly, maybe I'll kick off with you on that one.

Kelly Rodriques: (02:13)
Great. Thank you. Well, I think there's been a convergence of events in the last five to 10 years. In our space, it started with companies really extending their private life, so a private company now in the world where there's 800 unicorns worth 2.6 trillion, these companies are now staying private for between 12 and a half and 13 years before they go public. So, there's tremendous value creation happening before a company ever becomes accessible to the public investor. That coupled with the fact that the CEOs and the boards that are running these companies need to retain their employees, they need to be on it for the long haul, and so liquidity and technology to enable liquidity and data to inform liquidity is a massive problem. And it hasn't crept up on us. This is a trend that's been going on for 10 years, at least.

Kelly Rodriques: (03:06)
And so, what we're seeing and what we're doing is trying to open the access to the market up to participants all around the world. And historically, for those of you in the crowd that are in the private equity or venture space, it's a fairly close knit and tight and hard to get into club. And so, we just believe that there's a lot of factors at work here and we've been focused on building the tech and providing the data. And so, the news today of our announced SPAC going public was all about raising the capital to make this a scale platform for for the world. And so, it's a very exciting time.

Matt Brown: (03:44)
Very exciting. You beat me to it on the SPAC. I was going to ask you that. So, can you just walk us briefly through that and the motivation again? So, you guys are now going public through a SPAC?

Kelly Rodriques: (03:55)
Yeah. We have partnered with Motive Capital Corp, [Like Masters 00:04:01], and a group of fintech specialists to build the business and really to make the private markets accessible through a public investment. We have a belief given what the phenomenal growth has been over the last three years, that to do this at scale needs a highly capitalized leader, and we believe being the first to market in the public space really is an advantage for us competitively.

Matt Brown: (04:32)
Yeah. Well, congratulations again. That's a huge milestone not only for Forge, but the industry to see the investor reception on the platform business and a great job well done. Milind, let me, in order go, same question to you. Huge tailwinds, whether it's technology tailwinds, regulatory. You run Yieldstreet, very successful B2C platform in the alternative space. You recently also did a very impressive transaction. What are you seeing out there? What's happening, and what's driving this growth.

Milind Mehere: (05:04)
Yeah. So, I think Matt, for us, it was really access to and distribution of ALTs is fundamentally broken. So, if you think about institutions, they have 10 times more exposure to ALTs than retail, and the reason it is broken is that the ticket sizes are too large and the hold periods are too long. And I think as you alluded to, in the last decade, A, the consumer behavior has dramatically changed. People need access, they want to get educated, and then they can transact. And number two, changes to regulation really enabled Yieldstreet-type companies to really access a consumer that was not accessible earlier. And I think so those are really the big tailwinds of how do you really modernize your portfolio from the traditional stock market investing that all of us had access to and invest the top 1% or invest [inaudible 00:05:55] institutions? And now technology and data is enabling that. And I think that's really where people come to platforms like Yieldstreet.

Milind Mehere: (06:03)
I think one real important trend, Matt, to think about is that ours is a self-service platform. Right? So, we don't have sales people that will call you and say, "Hey, come invest on the platform." It's all about you engaging with the platform, engaging with the content, and I think that really is super fascinating in terms of consumer behavior and how and why they want access to ALTs.

Matt Brown: (06:25)
Milind, when you say the kind of the individual investor, obviously we all know the do it yourself investor now is rising. Information has been democratized at a rapid clip. Can you give us an insight into where a financial advisor may sit in five or 10 years if now you are empowering the individual investor?

Milind Mehere: (06:48)
So, listen, I think there is, in our opinion, I think an informed investor, whether it is going through a channel or directly to the platform is a very important component, especially thinking about investment options that are away from a traditional stock market. And so, I think education in general is a very important component of how consumers are going to access various financial products and how consumers become comfortable. So, Matt, one stat that we always quote is that people spend 10X more time planning a vacation, just a single vacation, than they do on financial planning every year, and the reason for that is the consumer is very afraid. And that's why, by the way, the other big trend is we are all sitting on more than $10 trillion of cash. The savings rate has been the highest. Right?

Milind Mehere: (07:39)
And so, I think the whole idea about education and how education can really be a stepping stone for consumers to get access to a wider set of products is very important. Direct to consumer is a small channel that [inaudible 00:07:56] ecosystem that are 300,000 advisors in the country that have access to millions of consumer. So, they have a role to play definitely in terms of how do you bring that education? And I know you guys are doing a lot of stuff around that area. I think both of them is such a large market. Just in the US, there are 50 million consumers that can get access to all so with all the regulatory changes that have happened. So, it's a huge market.

Matt Brown: (08:19)
Asiff, you are spending a lot of your time in the blockchain world. I think it's probably known to many of us, but not as well understood, on really the impact that the distributed ledger technology can have and smart contracts can have on the finance industry. Maybe just a thought on, one, this massive growth that we're seeing and then, two, how are you seeing it from your lens at Figure?

Asiff Hirji: (08:51)
Look, I think to me the answer on why all ALTs, it's because of the performance. Right? Public markets, they're beta. Right? They're the beta part of our portfolio now. And so, if you want to stretch for alpha, you're going to ALTs. And so, in some weird way, ALTs are no longer ALTs, they're like a core part of your portfolio. And if that's happening, that means, unfortunately, given the structure and the regulatory environments, the poor retail investor is actually disenfranchised from that, and so companies like Forge and Milind's company are doing a great job of trying to make that more accessible. Right? I think from our point of view, we see all that happening, but we see it going to blockchain in the end. Right?

Asiff Hirji: (09:30)
Let me take a step back. If you view crypto and blockchain as an asset class, you've misunderstood it. Right? That's like sitting there and saying circa 1999 or '98, that the internet is a class of stock. It isn't. It's just a way to build an application. Blockchain is simply a way to build an application. And the best things about blockchain are, one, it gets rid of intermediaries because you can do bilateral real-time settlement, peer to peer, and two is it acts as a registry. So, if you think about, "Oh, it's going to blow away all sorts of cases where I need an intermediary or I need an escrow agent or something else," guess what? Financial services is right in the crosshairs of that. The financial services industry is going to get transformed more than any other industry because of blockchain. And we're going to go to bilateral real-time settlement, we're going to release a ton of liquidity, we're going to release a ton of capital, we're going to drop costs. Financial transactions are going to be as cheap as sending an email. That's the thesis.

Asiff Hirji: (10:22)
One of my big frustrations when I was running, Coinbase was almost every single project that came to us was basically token speculation in disguise. And it wasn't really getting at how do I refinance my house cheaper? How do I just do my banking cheaper? And so, we built a blockchain to do exactly that. Had the speed, scalability, performance, and security you need in financial services, let it out in the wild. And then because our industry is loath to adopt anything without proof, we created Figure as an operating entity, and just use case by use case, we prove it's working. Right?

Asiff Hirji: (10:52)
So, we've gone from nothing to about a half a billion in loans now that we do in real-time settlement. We've taken a 90 day process and made it basically capital in advance to the point where we now have third-parties adopting it. So, we've done that for lending, we're doing it for marketplace businesses, and we're now we're doing it for banking. Again, if you think of blockchain or crypto as an asset class, you've got it wrong. It's a way to build an application. And if you haven't figured out how it's going to upset your world, you're about five years behind.

Matt Brown: (11:21)
So, I read something today at an announcement around stablecoin.

Asiff Hirji: (11:25)
That's right.

Matt Brown: (11:27)
Can you just enlighten us on exactly the impact of that and why that's such a big deal?

Asiff Hirji: (11:31)
Yeah. So, today, for the first time a US bank minted a Stablecoin backed by US currency. Now-

Matt Brown: (11:42)
And a Stablecoin is?

Asiff Hirji: (11:43)
Is simply a crypto token that represents that fiat. Right? It could be anything. It could be GBP. It could be... It doesn't matter. But in this case it was USD. Okay? The regulator has never allowed that to happen up until today, and it happened today on Provenance Blockchain. Okay? And the second thing that happened is we used it to settle real-time bilateral, no capital tied up in liquidity, et cetera, a secondary transaction of a private company. Okay? And so, these are two enormous milestones in the industry, and you will see things that Milind's company does or things that Forge does moving to a blockchain based settlement system, because it will be faster, it'll be cheaper, less capital required, and therefore higher access for everybody. That's where we're going.

Matt Brown: (12:27)
Kelly, just on that government being our friend for, at least, for now and regulation, it does seem like they are helping the process of democratization. They recently modified the accreditation rules to include certificates in education, so they're opening up. That's great. They'll continue to do more. Are they doing enough? Are they doing it fast enough? And then, are they pushing the liability to the platform in any way? Do you feel that pressure now that you're delivering access, it's very efficient, and the government is now allowing it in a more fluid way? Do you at Forge feel the pressure to be able to regulate a bit yourself?

Kelly Rodriques: (13:13)
I mean, we really took the compliance and regulatory requirements to trade in the asset class seriously 10 years ago when this company was formed, so I think the idea that now you're seeing pressure for governments to allow more participation in the asset class is a great thing. But like everything with government, it's probably five years behind where it needs to be. So, we see that as a benefit. Anything that provides greater access is positive. I think we believe that the rules are really clear, though, for what we do, and we're going to continue to build systems. And as a platform business, we've been highly focused on building the network of participants on the platform and we've been watching the emergence of blockchain technology, and we could see that at some point we could consolidate potentially what a custodial service does with a settlement platform and really bring efficiency to the market.

Kelly Rodriques: (14:12)
But I think depending on where you're coming from, if you're building the technology and the infrastructure to facilitate blockchain securities, eventually big networks, big platforms are going to have to adopt that. And along the way there, I think we've got to watch what's going on, not just in the US regulatory environment, but globally. Right? Today, our business has investors from 70 different countries, so we really need to be mindful about what it takes and be adhering to the rules within those geographies. Now, I think with Asiff's representing in the technology that will enable us to really do this at scale is super exciting, and for us, it's just a matter of, are we at the scale now where we'll benefit from that? And do we see the adoption of it in a manner that the business model serves what we're doing?

Kelly Rodriques: (15:02)
So, we're excited, but I do think you are seeing governments move... In fact, if you go back about 10 years ago, they were starting to talk about this around alternative assets in the 2012, 2013 timeframe, and so it's good that it's finally come along. If you think about it, if you work for one of the 800 unicorns and you work in a SaaS software business, why shouldn't you be qualified to invest in a SaaS software business? Especially if you work there for eight years and you developed an expertise that probably most financial advisors don't have, if you think about it. So, yeah, I see it moving in the right direction.

Matt Brown: (15:40)
Milind, the narrative around alternative investments, hedge funds, private equity, all the things on your platform, was always a bit as, as you look at the investor, the SEC would say, "Well, if you're wealthy enough, you can afford to lose money," and that was that mantra that they kept saying. So, they had these net worth requirements. Those are being modified, and as Kelly just said, now we're adding education because they finally realized if you're not wealthy, you can also be smart, so it's coming along. But are you feeling as a platform provider, an enabler of access, any need for education or for responsibility of the products on your platform to the end investor as the barriers are going down?

Milind Mehere: (16:23)
Yeah. I think, listen, I'm going to make a couple of provocative comments here. Right? So, one aspect is that, of course, education is very important, as I said earlier, and I think today we have mechanisms to deliver education that has never been available to us five, 10, 20 years ago. Right? And the consumer pool and their behavior is very different. So, we want to keep that context in mind. But at the end of the day, we are also building a platform that provides you with diverse access to variety of investment options. And outside of your FDIC insured account, really performance is all dependent on the right of different factors, and you need to educate the consumer on that. And so, I think that context is very important for us to keep in mind.

Milind Mehere: (17:09)
And if you think about, let's just take GameStop as an example. Okay? Or AMC. Right? The stock had its ups and downs. You don't call Fidelity and say, "Hey, what is happening here?" because consumers are making those trades and driving up the price. And leave those two aside, because those are obviously very speculative cases, but a simple company like an Apple or a Facebook, you don't call Fidelity or Charles Schwab saying, "Hey, the investment went down." So, I think alternate is have to have that level of acceptance, and one of the biggest factors that alternatives don't have that type of acceptance is because they are not widely available. And number two, liquidity. And what is the role of secondary market? Because if secondary market liquidity was there, then that price discovery, price action aspect, which is so powerful in the public markets, would be really valuable to the consumer.

Milind Mehere: (18:01)
And I think, Asiff, that's obviously, we all know and speak about it. Right? It's one of the biggest use cases for blockchain, where you could do those types of settlement. And Kelly, to your point, with all that capital locked up, now you can build on use cases for the consumer to say, "Hey, I can take my private company stock, maybe get a loan against that. Or I want to de-risk it, so maybe I can take it from the private company and put it on a platform like Yieldstreet." And so, I think those are the types of use cases, in my opinion, over the next five years that are going to really be adopted. And I think regulation has to really understand those changes in technology and data and access that exists today that didn't exist 10 years ago.

Matt Brown: (18:46)
Are you seeing-

Asiff Hirji: (18:47)
Let me [crosstalk 00:18:48].

Matt Brown: (18:47)
Yeah. Asiff, yeah, jump in.

Asiff Hirji: (18:48)
Yeah, let me slightly disagree because I think the world is becoming more decentralized, not centralized. And so, the mindset of there's a regulator that's going to protect you and there's a platform that's going to vouch for you, that's a dated mindset. Right? There's more money being made in NFTs today than just about any place else. I'm not suggesting anyone getting NFTs, by the way. I'm just saying there's more money being made in NFTs faster than just about anywhere else. That is a completely unregulated, not considered a security marketplace, yet it trades and acts just like any other marketplace any of us are familiar with. Right? And that's where the future's going. The future's going to decentralized platforms where anybody can create an asset, put it up there, and anybody can buy it and anybody can trade it.

Asiff Hirji: (19:31)
And so, then, well, who do you hold responsible if it blows up? Or how do you protect the investor from the greater fool theory. Right? So, there will probably be entities that go out and produce some sort of pseudo advisory function and say, "I will curate these things for you. I will try and do some risk assessment for you," et cetera. Maybe we get there. But the world is getting less and less centralized, more and more decentralized, and so I think this... It's an archaic view to say that there's going to be a central body regulator and a central body standard that you're going to meet. I don't think that's true.

Matt Brown: (20:05)
Kelly, what do you think about that?

Kelly Rodriques: (20:08)
Well, I think in the private share class, there's tremendous pressure to get access to it, and so I think it's a path of least resistance. We exist with a view that as a platform, we want to integrate with anybody that wants to participate in the asset class. So, I think the definitions that have shifted is the idea that you're going to create some centralized platform and no one else is going to be able to compete or integrate. And I think what you have to do is accept the fact that in the future, we're going to all need to have some connectivity to each other and to the extent that we want to use blockchain technology, and we want to allow people to freely move from forge to Yieldstreet to whatever else is offered on Provenance, I think that that's just something that you have to build into your model and you shouldn't try and consider your platform as something that you're going to protect and build walls around.

Kelly Rodriques: (21:09)
I think the regulatory environment is going to be really interesting to see how that unfolds because I'm just not sure how that translates into velocity in different geographies in the world. The second most traded geography in the world for us is Asia, and depending on where you are in Asia, it's really about that's where unicorns are and that's where investors who don't have access to US unicorns want to trade from. And so, we're there because that's where we've got velocity. I think we'll have to wait and see how quickly we can trade in Eastern Europe or in Europe in general or South America. But right now, I think we're trying to follow where the volume is.

Milind Mehere: (21:53)
[inaudible 00:21:53].

Matt Brown: (21:53)
Yeah, please.

Milind Mehere: (21:54)
I think just so, Asiff, I think I'm agreeing with you, I think broadly speaking, just if you think about the power of consumer change and need, I think that is a very important aspect of how financial services are going to evolve over the next decade. So, think about highly regulated or fairly regulated industries like taxi cab and hotels. Right? You now have Uber and Airbnb that have become [inaudible 00:22:21], and the reason why they become [inaudible 00:22:23] is because consumer wanted. And I think what Asiff was saying is that consumers want to create interest. Right? And so, the idea really is going to be how our platform is going to deliver that product over the next decade.

Milind Mehere: (22:35)
And I think that is a very important aspect that all of us need to consider and appreciate because, at the end of the day, it is all about us. And the consumer is going to inherit $70 trillion over the next two decades from Baby Boomers to Generation X, Y, Z. We may not follow the same traditional ways that our parents followed. Right? And so, the question really is going to be, how do you deliver that financial infrastructure in wealth management, in alternative assets to the consumer? And what would be the rails on which it can be built?

Matt Brown: (23:11)
Yeah. Well, just on that, Milind, if you look at the mutual fund industry, the ETF industry, they're not regulated in the investor, they're regulating in the product provider. And right now, in this gray area where a lot of the private funds or private securities don't fall underneath the regulatory environment, so maybe that ultimately becomes the direction which is the unleashing of the consumer, as you're suggesting, which Asiff I completely agree with you, it's going to become completely decentralized. But maybe the onus of the quality control will ultimately fall back on the product provider if they do, in fact, want access to [crosstalk 00:23:43].

Kelly Rodriques: (23:42)
Look. I think certainly from a data and disclosure standpoint, I think one of the things that we believed and been talking about out in the world is that the asset class is interesting. It is a consumer capable, do they have access to the proper information, data, and disclosures to make an investment decision? I think that's the one area that is probably the next phase of expansion for us.

Asiff Hirji: (24:06)
Right. I know this is the ALTs panel, but let's just pick up on that point. Why should mutual funds and ETFs even exist today. Given that trading is free and you can buy slices of stocks and you have robo-advisors, you don't need any of those things. Because every one of us as an individual should be able to go through a risk analyzer, within two minutes, we should be able to get a packaged portfolio, which is slices of various stocks, push a button, and it happens. We don't need ETFs. We don't need ETFs, we don't need mutual funds. Again, it's a dated mindset. And so, we're going to this environment where you will be able to, on the fly, create all these things, using ALTs, using non-ALTs, et cetera. That's the world we're going to. It's like whole life, thank God, finally died because of [term 00:24:48]. Right? Mutual funds are, thank God, finally dying because of ETFs, but ETFs are going to die because in this world of free trades and stock slices, you don't need them. So, again, I know this is the ALTs panels so we shouldn't [crosstalk 00:25:01] but it's a real-world [crosstalk 00:25:04].

Matt Brown: (25:04)
No, no. Look, these are very intertwined. We can't pull them apart.

Asiff Hirji: (25:05)
It's a real-world example of that's where we're going, and that's what's happening with ALTs. ALTs are becoming more liquid, more data-driven, more platform-enabled on blockchain with real-time settlement.

Kelly Rodriques: (25:16)
And that's the next phase of what we're seeing now with data on our platform. With that you, you can go in and you can buy a basket and design your own portfolio without having to know whether I need to buy Uber or Lyft.

Asiff Hirji: (25:27)
Exactly. And so, what you need is somebody like a Forge that sits there and says, "I've done the work I've. I've collected the data on this asset. Okay? This is what they perform like." Or Yieldstreet saying, "I've done the work. I've created..." Okay? What is that? That sounds a lot like what an investment bank used to do.

Matt Brown: (25:42)
So, I think the demand story on the consumer side, the individual investor, or the financial advisor on behalf of the individual investor, I think we get that. They've been disappointed, active management has failed, alternatives are the new active. You gave, Kelly, a variety of your reasons on the private pre-IPO side. But let's look at the demand from the product perspective. Asiff, you just did an announcement on Apollo-

Asiff Hirji: (26:06)
That's right.

Matt Brown: (26:06)
... doing something. Let's get into the mind of the asset manager or the corporation on what motivates them to want to be on a platform. Why do they care at all about small investors? What's going on on that side?

Asiff Hirji: (26:19)
Can I start with that? Okay. So, I was a partner at TPG, I was a partner at Andreessen. We've had this discussion with Apollo One of the biggest things is if you think of the infrastructure you're required to run a fund, because of the cost of that infrastructure, that's why the ticket size is so high. That's why you want fewer investors rather than more investors. It's a pain in the butt to have to manage thousands of investors when you have that kind of an inflexible platform. Well, go to the kind of platforms we're talking about, whether the investor is writing a million dollar check or a $10,000 check, it doesn't matter. You can manage them both the same way for the same amount of cost.

Asiff Hirji: (26:52)
And so, for leaning companies like Apollo are looking at and saying, "We want to put a fund on chain. We want to be able to have secondary liquidity on that chain because that'll be good for the investors, and by the way, I don't have to deal with LPs coming to me saying, 'I want liquidity.'" And so, that's what they're doing. So, the first fund Apollo is going to put on our blockchain... Sorry, not our blockchain, on the Provenance Blockchain, is going to be a new fund of which some portion of that fund is going to be exchange tradable to create liquidity. And that's just the first of many that they're going to put on. And they're not the only asset manager. And this is great because it's not the LPs saying, "Please find a way for me to get liquidity." It's the fund manager saying, "This is a better way to create the fund." And again, this is the path that these fund managers are on, apollo being at the start.

Kelly Rodriques: (27:38)
If you take a look at companies, though, if a company is going to stay private for 13 years, I think SpaceX is 18 years-

Asiff Hirji: (27:46)
What was it 10 years ago? What was it 20 years ago?

Kelly Rodriques: (27:49)
20 years ago it was five and a half years, so a company was going public at five and a half with a valuation of 550 million. Now, it's 13 years at a valuation of five billion. Okay? And so, these are capital raising machines. When you have five, six, seven rounds of capital and you start having employees who stock options of vested in four years, and they've gone through three full vesting cycles, the company's got to use technology and has got to use a more market-based pricing mechanism for primary and secondary capital.

Kelly Rodriques: (28:25)
So, the idea that you're going to go out and raise money every year from the same 12 VCs that you know just doesn't make any sense. And particularly if you're starting to offer secondary trading to venture [inaudible 00:28:37] institutional investors or your own employees, they want to know that they're not selling their stock at a discount. And we've all seen the public private discounts that are going on in these tender offers that started five years ago. Those are going to go away. Why would you discount your stock by 30% for your employees when there's an investor halfway across the world that's willing to pay you full preferred market price for it? So, I think for a company it's about, "Hey, I need to plug into a capital machine so I'm not spending 40% of my time running my company and capital raising mode."

Milind Mehere: (29:13)
Yeah. And I think to add to this whole comment around why supply side will want to work with platforms like us, I think it's really two aspects to it. One is it's not about today. So, today, we might be able to read only portion of that fund, but in two years [inaudible 00:29:31] $20 million check, you'd get $150 million LP. Three years it would be the entire billion dollar fund. That's one aspect of it in terms of the value that retail has given the dynamics that we've been discussing [inaudible 00:29:43].

Milind Mehere: (29:44)
The second aspect, in my mind, which is much more powerful, is what's the role of capital formation, and how's that changing? Kelly, to your point. So, for me, it is a completely different way to look at it. Historically, Wall Street has operated by saying, "Hey, I'm raising a $2 billion fund for XYZ strategy. Now, let me go find LPs." The LPs can be institutional, retail, international, domestic, small, big, whatever may be the case. Can you flip that model and say, "I'm actually now going to go to retail and say, 'Hey, what is the type of product do you want? Is it 8% yield, three year duration and some asset type?'" And then you can aggregate that demand on a platform and say, "Okay, great, KKR, Apollo, whatever may be the case, I have $5 million allocated to this type of a yield risk spectrum, can you deploy that capital?"

Milind Mehere: (30:38)
So, instead of you getting stuck in a strategy because your macro economic factors change many times and the fund are multi-year, can you flip that and say, "Hey, the consumer wants this"? Because the consumer is living life very differently. We no longer work for 30 years in one company, and we need liquidity at different points in time. And so, out of the $100 of allocation, yeah, sure, you should have something that a big portion should be allocated for your long-term goals, but there are short-term and medium-term liquidity goals that we have and the desire to own income can change that capital formation story. So, I think that's really where technology can pay an unbelievable role.

Matt Brown: (31:16)
So, institutional investors, family offices, endowments, pensions typically have 30 to 50% weighted in alternative investments broadly, including pre-IPO? Wealth management can range wildly, but as low as nothing to up to 10 or 15%. Total US wealth management, north of 20 trillion. That's just money professionally managed by a financial advisor. So, it's a multi-trillion dollar jump ball right now and there's big firms like Apollo and like Blackstone and like Carlisle and many, many others that are seeing this as, as Kelly you to said, a very important capital source and capital formation source coming forward.

Matt Brown: (32:00)
At the same time, you have the SEC and other regulatory bodies seemingly making it easier, pushing the responsibility away from a net worth requirement to product providers, platforms playing a neutral facilitation role. I mean, that's a pretty powerful dynamic. You can see a complete industry change. Then, you overlay blockchain. That could completely transform the entire industry on how we even think about doing business, maybe us if we don't even need fund structures anymore. Possibly.

Asiff Hirji: (32:34)
Possibly.

Matt Brown: (32:34)
Possibly. Let's play the game five years out, 10 years out. Okay? We're sitting here in SALT, Anthony Scaramucci is still here doing his thing. What does that world look like? And I want to start with you, Asiff, because I think that from the blockchain perspective, what's this conversation around democratization sounding like in 10 years from now?

Asiff Hirji: (32:57)
I would posit that in in 10 years, the big structural changes that will happen is you will move settlement to be bilateral real-time.

Matt Brown: (33:07)
Just, can you just explain that a little deeper?

Asiff Hirji: (33:09)
Yeah. So, why did GameStop happen? Right? GameStop happened because we have a circuit in 1970s architecture underpinning our securities marketplace. Right? So, if you go back, in the 1960s, literally when you traded stock, a broker would send a paper security from one broker test to the other to settle the security. That's what happened. And the stock market would shut down Wednesday afternoons and Fridays because of the volume. That's where we were in the 1960s. And so, they created the DTCC, which is a centralized body that they said, "This is stupid. We'll put all the paper certificates in one place, and we'll have an agency just have a tabular format, figure out how it works on computers." Awesome suggestion for 1970.

Asiff Hirji: (33:53)
We're still on that technology, which is why it takes us three days to settle a trade. That means if you've got trillions of dollars trading every day, guess what? You have trillions upon trillions of dollars of liquidity that's margined across all these houses. And the DTCC is the ultimate carrier of that margin, and so the DTCC went to Robinhood... Sorry, it went to the houses that Robinhood used and said, "Hey, you're asking me to take leverage on GameStop. I don't like it anymore. I'm going to increase my margin requirements 3X overnight." Right? That's what happened. That is the antithesis of a bilateral real-time settlement system. It's a three day, lots of capital tied up, really complex system which leads to things like Archigos happening because no one can figure out how much liquidity was actually lent to Archigos. Right?

Asiff Hirji: (34:40)
A bilateral real-time system works really simply. I have a wallet on crypto, Milind has a wallet on crypto. I want to trade with Milind, I don't even know who Milind is, I just know that I have a security, I put it on a marketplace, I put out a bid... Sorry. I put out an ask, he hits it, the blockchain will settle that transaction in real-time, it'll move Stablecoin from his wallet into mine, and it'll move the security from my wallet into his. We're done. There is no settlement risk there. It doesn't match the trade. If it can't do it. Now, everyone sits there and says, "Oh, you just pre-funded every trade. You can't do that." No, because Milind could have gone to Kelly and said, "My business is trading. I want to borrow some money to do that." Kelly lends him the money, that's the money that's sitting in his wallet, that's what settled.

Asiff Hirji: (35:24)
We built on Provenance a completely automated bilateral real-time settlement trading system which we'd showed the DTCC, which handles today's volumes and more of the New York Stock Exchange with zero requirement for margin. Zero. Because it works so fast. Right? So, it would take trillions of dollars literally out of the system in terms of capital required. It would drop costs even more. The current system, the entrenched incumbents don't want to change. Right? So, until we convinced the banks, the traders to move to the system, that's what it'll take to get there, but that's where we're going.

Matt Brown: (36:02)
Is that the roadblock, is that the challenge is to getting the community [crosstalk 00:36:05]?

Asiff Hirji: (36:04)
Yeah. Why was the DTCC adopted? Right? Then what's the role for the DTCC? So, I think what's going to happen eventually, because everything takes longer, but in a 10 year horizon, you will move to bilateral real-time settlement globally for almost every asset class, because almost every asset class will be tokenized and it will be exchange traded. That doesn't mean the exchange traded 24/7. A lot of these things don't have 24/7 liquidity, but they will have liquidity over certain periods of time whenever the asset manager decides to turn a liquidity on. That's the world we're going in, and you will construct on the fly, whether it's what we consider today public securities, or whether they're private securities or ALTs or whatever, that distinction is blurring.

Matt Brown: (36:43)
Milind, same question. Let's project out, Yieldstreet or other platforms, where are we in five and 10 years with your platform?

Milind Mehere: (36:51)
Yeah. I think that, listen, I agree with several points that Asiff made, I think for us, or just generally from a wealth management perspective, it needs to be much more of a dynamic system for the consumer depending upon where they are in their life needs and what type of liquidity do they want? So, can you create portfolios that take advantage of that type of a consumer construct. At the same time, how can you really, if you think about the top 1% and the family offices, the way they invest, what type of liquidity do you provide them against their liquid assets? What type of margin lending products do you have for them? So, how does all of these various aspects come together in a real-time system, I think, is where wealth management is going, in our opinion. And ALTs, as Asiff eloquently said, is the primary driver of alpha. We are strong believers in that over the next decade. So, we feel that it's a golden age of fintech, and I think that's really where that real-time platforms are going to be really very valuable.

Matt Brown: (37:56)
You described Yieldstreet as a digital bank in a press release or something I've read recently, but you're also a platform where individual investors get access to alternative investments. Are those the same thing? Just pulling that thread a bit.

Milind Mehere: (38:11)
Yeah. So, listen, I think for us, it's mostly, we are the next generation investment and wealth management platform. I think the idea of a digital private bank is how do you provide the same type of product and access that a traditional private bank provides, but do it using an automated platform? So, that's really the very simple way to think about what Yieldstreet is really aspiring to be.

Kelly Rodriques: (38:38)
Look, I think in 10 years, businesses that make money by settling trades or by matching trades will give way to businesses that make money by providing data and insights. I think, yes, in a world where Asiff's vision comes true, we would want to be and would accelerate being a fully global business that can provide real-time liquidity on our asset class anytime you want it or need it, whether you're raising primary capital or your secondary capital. But you also need someone who's a data provider that can tell you what came before, what's out there in the world that looks like this, how do I make a purchase decision in discover pricing? I think that's the kind of business that these platform companies turn into in five to 10 years.

Matt Brown: (39:28)
Do companies ever need to go public again with Forge?

Kelly Rodriques: (39:30)
I mean, theoretically, no. In fact, there are companies that we talk to now, if you take a look at the amount of liquidity, secondary liquidity, that has been done on SpaceX in the last three years, I think it's something like eight billion. I mean, they've essentially turned over and provided unlimited secondary liquidity to anybody that's bought into them in the last 10 years. So, I think it just depends on whether or not the rules change or whether or not you can have 4,000 people on your cap table. I think there's some regulatory reasons why you'd need to go. But from the standpoint of access to capital and liquidity [inaudible 00:40:10].

Milind Mehere: (40:09)
Yeah. I think you're absolutely right. I 100% actually agree with you. In the sense that I feel that permanent capital should exist at an asset level and there should be liquidity at the user level. And if you can bring out that equilibrium, it's unstoppable. Right? And there are elements of [crosstalk 00:40:29].

Kelly Rodriques: (40:28)
Yeah. I think that's totally right. I think the distinction between a public company and private company is blurring.

Matt Brown: (40:33)
Well, there's a lot of firms out there or platforms or companies that are very interested to make sure that there's IPOs and publicly listed company. What is the announcement that the New York Stock Exchange is acquiring for [crosstalk 00:40:47]?

Kelly Rodriques: (40:46)
Well, Deutsche Börse invested heavily [crosstalk 00:40:50].

Matt Brown: (40:49)
All powered by blockchain. When is that convergence going to happen? Milind, that's actually a real question. When are you going to see a private investment fund, alternative investment funds offered on a stock exchange?

Milind Mehere: (41:04)
Yeah. I think if I were placing bets, I would be more favorable of what Kelly was saying, which is, do you really need to offer them even on private exchanges? Right? We are launching one of the most prominent secondary VC funds on our platform later this month. And frankly speaking, do you really need to go public? And can you just [inaudible 00:41:26] whether it's on Yieldstreet, whether it's on Forge, whether it's on Carta, you could actually have a very active trading market. So, my answer is that I don't know whether you would want them to be on public exchanges.

Matt Brown: (41:42)
So, all three of you have general competitors. We all have competitors. I have competitors. I think we all probably agree that total addressable market is massive, so it's less about competition and more about market share for ourselves. But let's talk winners and losers for a second. So, maybe Kelly, you're shaking your head, what are the companies that you think, and of course you're going to put Forge in that category-

Kelly Rodriques: (42:06)
Top of the list.

Matt Brown: (42:06)
... top of the list of winners, but what are the losers ultimately not doing today that... What are they not seeing that you see?

Kelly Rodriques: (42:14)
I think the one thing that jumps out is anybody that thinks they're going to disrupt everyone in the ecosystem and own it all will be a loser. I think you have to be able to integrate, collaborate, and allow participation by the constituents who are interested in your market. And any attempt to build a sort of walled gardens structure where you try and own everything, I think, is a losing proposition.

Matt Brown: (42:46)
Yeah. We see that all the time. Milind?

Milind Mehere: (42:49)
I think for me it's distribution pipes and how can you efficiently build distribution pipes is very important. And how do you make accessibility much more favorable to the consumer and not to to the street? And I think those companies that really embrace that, which is put the consumer first design a product that's right for them, and have the right pipes into those consumers are ultimately going to be winners. And those that don't embrace that change whether what's embedded finance and defi is doing, what has happening with consumer behavior, and they still think that they could control those pipes to the consumers may not do well.

Matt Brown: (43:29)
Asiff, many blockchain companies or many companies at least put that label on themselves, whether that's totally true or not.

Asiff Hirji: (43:35)
Yeah. I think the business models that are in trouble, anything that's escrow based, if your business model is, "I provide escrow services-

Matt Brown: (43:43)
Escrow based?

Asiff Hirji: (43:44)
Yeah. If your business model is, "I provide escrow services, you park capital with me, I charge you for that to do something," that model's [crosstalk 00:43:50].

Matt Brown: (43:50)
So, Schwab, Fidelity, and [crosstalk 00:43:52].

Asiff Hirji: (43:52)
No. I wouldn't put [inaudible 00:43:53] title insurers.

Matt Brown: (43:54)
Title insurance. Okay.

Asiff Hirji: (43:55)
Or an escrow agent where if I'm buying a house, I need to deposit funds at an escrow agent because they won't release them until the title appears and everything else. Those models are all dead because, again, we're going to bilateral real-time settlement, and so that model displaces the escrow based business models. I think that's one thing. And Kelly alluded to that, too, in the settlement arena. I think the second arena is there are a lot of fund managers who, frankly, are simply, they're closet indexers. Right? And the performance will come through that. And if you're a closet indexer, you have a short life in this new world because people are going to see through that and they'll get the alpha cheaper somewhere else. Right? So, I think those are the two trends that I would look for.

Matt Brown: (44:42)
Right. Believe it or not, we are out of time, but I want to ask each of you one question. You're all leaders in business, you've mentored people, you manage people, you're growing firms, so my lightning round final question, what's one life lesson you wish you knew a lot earlier in life? We can have an entire new session just on that question, if you'd like.

Asiff Hirji: (45:08)
Who do you want to go first?

Matt Brown: (45:10)
Milind?

Milind Mehere: (45:11)
All right. So, I think for me, take bigger risks, massive risks earlier in your career. That's the only time, or that's one of the most favorable times to do that. And if I knew that-

Matt Brown: (45:22)
I'm sorry, knew what?

Milind Mehere: (45:26)
Take bigger risks.

Matt Brown: (45:27)
Oh, take risks. Yeah.

Milind Mehere: (45:27)
Yeah. And I think all of us are super conservative and most of us are... Looking at my background, you would not think that I'm a conservative. I've taken a bunch of risks, but I think that's one lesson just... I came to this country as an immigrant student. Right? And so, you kind of follow that corporate route, and I did that for a few years. And I think today with access to data and technology, I think if I knew that earlier or in my 20s, I think it would be amazing.

Matt Brown: (45:55)
Kelly?

Kelly Rodriques: (45:57)
I'd say working in software and fintech businesses most of my career, I've come to believe that no matter how many engineers you hire, how much money you raise, your competitive advantage comes from building a tremendous culture in an organization where people want a piece of changing the world and they want to work with other like-minded people who care about each other. And I guess I've just come to believe that leadership and culture trumps who's got more engineers.

Asiff Hirji: (46:33)
So, I have a high schooler who's about to apply to college and one of the things I'm telling him is it's all about your network. In the end, it's all about your network. The best opportunities always come from your network. And it's like, build your network, do random favors for people in your network not expecting anything in return, because at some point it's going to pay back tenfold.

Matt Brown: (46:51)
Great. Gentlemen, thank you so much. Really enjoyed this conversation.

Asiff Hirji: (46:56)
Thanks for having us.

Milind Mehere: (46:56)
Thank you.

Peace & Prosperity in the Middle East | #SALTNY

Peace & Prosperity in the Middle East with H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri, Minister of Economy of the United Arab Emirates (UAE). H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi, Minister of State for Foreign Trade of the United Arab Emirates (UAE).

Moderated by Danny Sebright, President, U.S.-U.A.E. Business Council.

Powered by RedCircle

 

SPEAKERS

Headshot - Bin Touq, H.E. Abdulla - Cropped.jpg

His Excellency Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri

Minister of Economy

United Arab Emirates

Headshot - Al Zeyoudi, H.E. Dr. Thani Bin Ahmed - Cropped.jpg

His Excellency Dr. Thani Bin Ahmed Al Zeyoudi

Minister of State for Foreign Trade

United Arab Emirates

 

MODERATOR

Headshot - Sebright, Danny - Cropped.jpeg

Danny Sebright

President

U.S.-U.A.E. Business Council

 

TIMESTAMPS

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Danny Sebright: (00:07)
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you so much for attending this panel today with his Excellency Abdulla bin Touq Al Marri, the UAE Minister of Economy. And his Excellency Dr. Thani bin Ahmed Al Zeyoudi, the UAE Minister of State for Foreign Trade.

Danny Sebright: (00:23)
Today's program is aptly named peace and prosperity in the middle east because it marks the one year anniversary of the successful signing of the Abraham Accords in Washington, DC. This normalized relations for the first time between the UAE, Israel, and Bahrain.

Danny Sebright: (00:40)
And as we celebrate, or as we come to the end of the Jewish new year, Rosh Hashanah to all, and we ask that our names of our Jewish friends and all be inscribed in the book ahead for the next year on the holy eve of Yom Kippor. We're so pleased to be able to celebrate this trilateral Abraham Accords with all of you here at SALT.

Danny Sebright: (01:06)
SALT's been a leading global thought leadership conference. There was amazing conference in Abu Dhabi in 2019. Thani and his team led and they're planning and hoping to be an Abu Dhabi again in March of 2022. And we are very pleased to be participating in that.

Danny Sebright: (01:23)
I'm Danny Sebright, President of the US UAE Business Council. And I think as was said, we're the leading bilateral chamber of commerce and trade between the US and the UAE.

Danny Sebright: (01:33)
Without further ado gentlemen, let's jump right in because we have a limited amount of time. I'd like to cover a number of topics if we could. Coming out of COVID-19. And I just came back from two weeks in the UAE, and I'm telling you, it's a very different sense and feeling. 95% of your population is vaccinated. Everyone wears a mask. I must've had six or seven PCR tests while I was there in a two week period. You've implemented a lot of new economic reforms coming out of COVID to get the country and the region back on track in a very exciting way. Mr. Minister, could you outline some of the steps you've taken?

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (02:14)
Thank you, Danny. Thank you, SALT and the organizers for having us here today, sitting on the panel. We'd be speaking about the UAE story. I think the major story that we're going to speak about is next month, starting the 1st of October, the Expo 2020 happening for six months in the UAE, in the Emirate of Dubai. We're here as well to really explain as well about the story that happened the last 18 months. And let me tell you what I started my post back in July in 2020, which is the hardest post you could ever take as a minister of economy in the middle of a pandemic. But I think as soon as we started that we managed to really reform and really took a step back and read and look at the economy as sectors and understand what was the UAE's economy pre-COVID. And the question was, what's the UAE economy post-COVID?

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (03:02)
And COVID-19 really made a dent in the economy, not just in the UAE, but I think globally. And I think the economy is not going to come back to pre-COVID times and in a setup where we understood that we need to really put some regulations, some policies in place to really move the economy towards a new economy, towards new sectors, and areas of what we doing. So we started, we formed a team in the ministry of economy, we reorganized. And the first thing we came out with is a 100% ownership to companies in the UAE. In the past one ownership to companies in the UAE used to be 49 to the foreign owners and 51 to a local owner. And today you now own at a 100% in the United Arab Emirates. With that gave the opportunity as well, to look at other regulations such as the residency's program, which his excellency Dr. Thani, can speak more about.

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (03:59)
I think we looked at how can we look at the talent? And the talent is the fuel of an economy. We already understood as well that there are some ex-industries in the UAE that might be not be there in the future. And then we understand that as well, how do we look at sustainability moving towards new economy? We found out that there's a lot of e-commerce digital economy coming to place, FinTech, Agri-tech, there's a lot of sectors that we started up back in COVID times. At that as well, we looked at we the FDI investments in the UAE has increased by 44% in 2020. We understood as whether there is a lot of people want to move to the UAE because how safe and secure the nation is. We had a message from our leaders back as was saying that everyone in the UAE is going to be taken care of. And that message really gave a pleasant understanding that anyone who sits on the ground of UAE is going to be taken care off. So don't worry about the COVID-19. We have everything under control.

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (05:05)
So we started with a plan of a hundred billion dollars into SMEs and companies supporting them. We had the 33 initiative plan phased out on three phases. We are at the moment at phase three, looking at the future of the economy, really pushing towards that. And I think that's something which is very vital and important for us. Last week, Danny, we managed to launch the 50 by 50 projects for the next 50 years. You know that the UAE's celebrating its 50 years anniversary this year by the 2nd of December. And the 2nd of December, we are as well giving the UAE and the world our 50 years vision as well. So this is something which is very important.

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (05:46)
So last week we launched about 13 projects out of the 50, more to come today as well, more to come next week, there's more projects coming out. So we have 50 projects lined. And let me tell you, Danny, this projects are not announcement of we're going to start. These projects have already started. These projects already been in plan and in the kitchen for the last couple of months and they are ready to go out at the moment.

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (06:11)
So let me tell you a couple of things. We are looking at one, which is the investor opiate conference we are looking at. So the investor of accounts from the utopia and investing in the future city as well. So this is something which we would like to bring people attention here, that UAE is putting down a conference in March. In the Expo 2020, trying to bring people in to invest in the future, not in the current economy.

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (06:37)
So we were looking at the future economy and trying to bring governments, funds, investors, SMEs, and entrepreneurs to come together and say, what's the next big thing in the next 10 years. What's going to make us disruptive and how can we invest in it today? And maybe announce some investments at that time as well. So this is what we are focused on. There are other projects that we focused on, the 10 by 10, which is a 10 sectors in 10 countries working on with 10 governments, started to put some economy trade agreements. Economic agreements to bring together the-

Danny Sebright: (07:16)
Thank you, sir. Dr. Thani, I came back from the UAE last week and I had 70 some meetings with the major American companies while I was there. They all spoke as his excellency said about security and how glad they were to be operating and doing business in the UAE during the time of COVID. The UAE, as we all know, is a regional hub, has been a regional hub, but the UAE what most Americans and foreign audiences don't know has become a global hub. Truly has entered the stage on the global scale as a hub for the world. You are in charge, you're responsible for some of these foreign direct investment incentives and working to make change some of the laws that make it more attractive for American and other companies to come set up business. Talk about that. Why should everyone in this audience be thinking about doing business in the UAE today in this new global hub?

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (08:10)
Sure. Thank you, Danny. And thank you for the organizers for inviting us here. I want to just compliment what his Excellency Abdulla, was saying. And we assumed our roles within the Ministry of Economy at the middle of the pandemic. But one of the main decision that we thought while joining the Ministry that we will not disturb anything within the country and we'll not go backward. And this is one of the main messages that we always send to our business communities. We released a statement and released reforms within the laws our regulations which is going to boost the economy and not going backward.

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (08:45)
One of the things which we always work to sell, why the UAE? The UAE is very stable as a nation, has a very visionary leaders, leadership is there, the infrastructure is one of the most state of art infrastructure within the region and globally, and the safest stuff we provide for everyone. So what we have achieved throughout the last one year and three months. We sent the Hope Mission to Mars. Fulfilling our commitments, nothing will stop us. No pandemic, no crisis will stop our ground. Second one was the connection of the first peaceful nuclear planet to the grid and the whole region. Sending strong messages that sustainability and power and the continuities is the backbone of our economy. And then we started the whole reform of our regulations and the way that we manage the residences. What we have done in the field of trade and investments, we're talking about mainly four main pillars.

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (09:53)
The first one is the how are we going to attract more investments. For sure, the promotions and the marketing campaigns, which were starting the engagements that we have. And thinking about the whole holistic approach, how the investors, and entrepreneurs, that anyone who's visiting the UAE is going to feel that the UAE is home for them. And by encouraging and improving the ecosystem and improving the regulatory systems by improving... The company knows what his excellency was talking about. At the same time, how are we going to give a clear picture on the UAE's business environments to the communities.

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (10:27)
One of the initiatives which was launched last week, as well as part of 50 by 50 economic conditions of the celebration for our 50 years anniversary is then based of UAE platform where we're combining all governments for the local, private sector in one platform where they can have a clear picture and with clear visibility on the various sectors. And then they can't start opening their license and opening their accounts under 15 minutes.

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (10:54)
The fourth aspects when it comes to FDI is direct engagements between us on the private sector and ensure that we're widening the markets for them. And we want to ensure that... We're not talking about the UAE market, we're not talking about the JCC, we're a global hub. And we're global investment fund to a hub.

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (11:13)
The second part of the whole investments trans-trade is the how we're going to go abroad? What are the sectors which are going to be very strategic? We'd like to ensure that our companies are investing in jobs abroad. Now, how can we take our SMEs and the exporters, some of the small and medium companies with us outside to encourage them to expand and scale up outside the UAE. And at the same times, we are one of the highest contributor to the humanitarian worker globally. And how can we ensure that the investment goes hand in hand with this development work we're doing globally?

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (11:46)
The theater element is the three. We noticed that the three it has been declining lately, especially in the last 10 years. But at the same time, the service of theater is beginning. So we have to focus on service and we work on very dedicated and very comprehensive service strategies. And we're started targeting countries. We launched an initiative last week. We call it 10 by 10, where we're going to talk some 10 sectors, 10 countries for certain period to ensure that we are having at least 10% growth in our exports to those countries. And at the same time, we announced to eight country that we're going to start with them comprehensive economic partnership agreements. To ensure that those investors and the business people within the UAE they will have a wider range of markets that they can cover. And we're talking about almost 4 billion populations from far East Austria to far West of Africa. And this is the population which has almost 50 to 60% young generation, which is going to have and embrace the new technologies and digitalizations of work.

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (12:49)
Last element is the tenants. On the tenants of human being is the backbone, is the DNA of the whole movement more focal. We're talking about knowledge-based economy. Knowledge-based economy is about human being, and it's about person. So we're not talking about the locals, we're talking about anyone who's living in the UAE. So that's why we went and revamped the whole citizenship system where we added to the Golden Visa on the National Program, which was announced earlier this year.

Danny Sebright: (13:18)
The Golden Visa means I can stay for 10 years, yeah,-

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (13:20)
Absolutely.

Danny Sebright: (13:20)
... as a business person.

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (13:22)
Absolutely. So we would like to ensure that if you stay there, if you mean that UAE is home, we start even taking all the barriers that bind direct engagement with those investors. Having their children and sponsoring their children who are up to 25 years old. Anyone who lose his job he's not obliged to leave the country within 30 days, now they can stay up to 60 days so they can look for another jobs. Families who lost their the main sponsor, they can stay up to one year. So we took even the humanitarian aspects of the system. We launched the freelancer visa for the first time in the region. So freelance services is going to be introduced. And the green visa has been introduced as well. So we can compliment the whole system. So those are the four main pillars when it comes to trade and investments which we're focusing on.

Danny Sebright: (14:11)
It's amazing. It's different, and it's revolutionary from anything else that's going on in the region today. And it does set you up to be a global hub, for sure. You mentioned the 10 other countries that you're focused on in the year ahead. Just quickly, one of those is Israel. And we are in the anniversary of the Abraham Accords, just a word or two about the opportunity for trilateral business investment, and cooperation by friends in the audience here in that context.

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (14:39)
Can I just start with that maybe so that, Thani, can add to it. I think when we had the conversation with you last year, and the Israeli as well, companies. We were talking about one major thing. There was a question that I see that says, "Well, we know how are you going to benefit from Israel, but how Israel is going to benefit from you?" And I said, "Well, Israel is a startup nation, and the UAE is a scale-up nation." And one year later, or less than a year later, two months ago, his Honor Sheik Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum, the Prime Minister and the Vice-President of UAE, tweeted about the Israeli drone company scaled up in the UAE, taking a surveillance project in Expo 2020 surveilling the security of Expo 2020. That's a real time, Danny, of a scale-up project of what we were talking about. How can you actually look at the UAE not just as a hub, but the scale up for the region.

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (15:40)
The UAE is today is welcoming 200 nationalities, people from every part of the world to come to the UAE. I look at the UAE as a gateway to scale up in to MENA, in to Asia, in to Africa, you name it. This is something which we are putting out there; our logistics, our infrastructure, our space is ready for the world. We already, we're young, we're fit to fight.

Danny Sebright: (16:03)
Excellent.

Danny Sebright: (16:04)
You have some brand name companies in the room today from the UAE that are titans in the industry; Mubadala, [inaudible 00:16:12], Abu Dhabi Global Markets. We have representatives on... You brought a delegation gentlemen with you, your excellencies, of some 20 some people. We have his Excellency Mohammad Ali Al Shorafa, from the department of economic development in Abu Dhabi. We have, Fahad Al Gergawi, from Dubai FDI. We have Sharjah' FDI. You're here on a week, traveling around the United States to tell your story. You were in Washington all day yesterday and had meetings at the White House, the Department of Commerce, USDA. What's your message in these government meetings with this great delegation that you've brought, and with businesses that you're meeting with? What are you trying to convey?

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (16:53)
Well, let me tell you one thing, Danny, in all these meetings we had yesterday, and the day before we were hearing the word, "Wow, are you doing this? Wow, you're doing that? Wow!" So the story we're saying is amazing. And I think what we're trying to convey to the audience and everyone is there is a story in the last 18 months. We took the job back in July, we were working day and night to really put things into the future. Thinking about the economy, we're here to make changes. We here to look at to really diversify sustainable FDI investments. UAE has always been the US partner consecutively for the last 14 years. The number one partner of trade in the region. We want to continue that. We want to increase that. We want to put that in the map. We want to really help businesses to take forward from the UAE, anywhere into MENA, into Africa, into Asia. That's what the UAE is. That's the UAE always been for the last 50 years. And we want to keep in doing that.

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (17:49)
We here to really talk and tell our story. And it's more of a fact-finding mission, as well. We want to understand what changed in the US, what's happening, what's really the new gig? What's the technology?

Danny Sebright: (17:58)
You need a few months for that.

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (18:01)
Trying to put it with a very condensed structure of visits while the last three or four days, we learned a lot as well. And I think that's something which is very... I just learned a lot about anesthesia yesterday. So this is something which is really interesting.

Danny Sebright: (18:16)
Any thoughts from an FDI perspective-

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (18:18)
Yeah.

Danny Sebright: (18:18)
... the story you're trying to tell here?

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (18:19)
Well, to add to what his excellency was saying we're going from what we have done, and we're going to open doors, we're here with the business delegation as well, not only the representatives of governments. So we can explain the growth on those sectors which we are targeting. What's happening in those sectors, which for sure, we're going to add value to the states, as well as, to the UAE, and to the whole globe.

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (18:41)
And if you allow me, Danny, I would like to just think of some details on some of the sectors which we're targeting. We're not targeting the conventional sectors because we know that they're going to be transformed drastically and they'd been pushed very hard by the pandemic and the crisis so they can move forward and make sure that they're going to continue living after the pandemic. But the sector in which we are targeting for sure, the e-commerce, and the retail. We saw a huge growth, we saw transformations, and this is going to be the game changer. Taking the SMEs, taking the exporters with them and they're in the market. Agri-business is something which very crucial. We saw the food security matters during the pandemic. And we saw how crucial and how important that the movements of the productions to be close to home.

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (19:25)
The theater sector, which we're very pioneering is the health-wellness sector. We're talking about almost... The UAE is attracting around 70% of the whole region health-wellness businesses and our part of the world. And at the same time, the health sector in general and pharmaceutical is very huge, would be in a supplier to the whole region, through the storages, through the big warehouses that we have and big factories that we have in the UAE. And we will make sure that through our infrastructure, through our connection, through our investments abroad we're going to have this accessibility to everyone during any futuristic crisis.

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (20:04)
Biotech, advance science are very key. Its very linked to our manufacturing and the industrial strategies. There's a huge push. We're targeting to invest around 300 billion dirhams for the upcoming 10 years in the industry and the manufacturing sector.

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (20:22)
ICT is a game changer because we saw that transformation and applications and health sector and the e-commerce. So ICT is going to be embedded in most of the work which we're doing.

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (20:30)
Supply chain. Supply chain is going to be a key and critical challenge to everyone. Through the containers, through the course of the shipments. So supply chain has to be looked at carefully and something which we've been managing very well during the pandemic. We're going to ensure that we do have very strong investments in this too, to make sure that we're bringing the crisis and not cause inflations within the country.

Danny Sebright: (20:53)
Before we leave the focus on the US, you have an amazing team here in the United States with your embassy in Washington, DC. Obviously, ambassador Al Otaiba, leads a wonderful team. Saud Al Nowais, your commercial counselor. You have a new consul general here in New York. You have consulates around the country. All of these folks are focused on helping Americans understand better, what is the UAE and what are the opportunities? So it's really important to shout them out and say a word about them.

Danny Sebright: (21:21)
When we look at other countries in the region, obviously, and again, in my meetings over the last two weeks when I was there, every American company is thinking about how they triangulate between statements that are coming out of Riyadh and Saudi Arabia in dealing with competition. American companies are worried about China and competition. Healthy competition is good for everyone. There's no question about that. See a few words about how Americans should think about their business place in the region vis-a-vis other countries there.

Danny Sebright: (21:58)
And then in the great power competition that's going on with China, there was obviously a lot said at this morning session. I think the national security session this morning, we talked about Afghanistan for five minutes, and then the rest of the session was spent talking about China and the US. How the US has to think about China for the future. So I'm just curious if you can add anything on those two issues.

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (22:19)
Let me speak about what really I'm very expert about is trade supply chains. I think the trade supply chains, I always think about it as a miles and millions of miles of supply chain where they are as thick as one inch. So any stoppage to any supply chain, you have a problem globally. Post-COVID-19 today, every country and nations we're looking inwards and try to build manufacturing and establishing inwards kind of investments as well. But what we need to look at adjust global issue is the globalization's issue. How do we really look at the re-engineering supply chain overall the increase in prices of container-shipments today reached up to $15,000. How can we look at that and address that as a major issue. I really push this kind of thinking as well with my colleagues in the UAE and pushing it as well with my counterparty in the US as well, speaking about let's adjust this kind of issues.

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (23:26)
These are problems of inflation. We're going to see them in the next months and next year. This is a challenge that will really face the world. And I think it's important to really understand how can we push the multilateral organization to re-think, can we engineer the supply chain and trade globally? This is something of our interest and UAE can really play a big role into it. We have a very strong infrastructure in logistics, in aviation. We can really play a role as well to reduce the prices, to really move and the mobility of containers and shipments across the globe. The UAE has always been a place where people meet and do business, whatever nationality you are, wherever country you come from. The UAE has a lot of tolerance and a lot of ability to really talk different languages, as well.

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (24:20)
Let me add to what his excellency as well has said. When it comes to geo-politics, competition is always healthy and encouraging to move forward. And the competition within our region means that the volume of businesses and the economy growth is going to be higher, which means that our share in the spike is going to be much bigger than it used to be. So competition is always healthy, and we always encourage the competition.

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (24:44)
So speaking about the geo-politics and especially the relation between US and China. We've been looking carefully on this, and there is always a winner and loser from such geopolitical tensions. I would say that some of the countries managed to win from this attentions like Mexico, which harvest many manufacturing, which moved from China, goes up to the states. So we have to look at those from even positive angle. How can we bring an added value to the work and to the economy production that we're doing.

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (25:26)
Last point, which I want to raise as well. The economy has to be always at the front seat not the politics. The minute that the politics is at the front seat is going to slow down the economy. The minute that you have the economy, that's going to push the political agenda forward to the right way.

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (25:47)
We're creating jobs in the industry-

Danny Sebright: (25:49)
Yes.

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (25:50)
... in every way. So they're creating jobs, is the bottom line.

Danny Sebright: (25:52)
So this morning, again, on the national security panel, every one of the experts talked about maybe the future of the US-China competition, one aspect is to start moving some of the American companies moving some of their supply chain production and content from China to other places in the region. In conversations with the US government at a high level, this might be an opportunity for the UAE going forward. If US companies really do start doing that as a result of what's going on in our big power competition, as we call it for the future. You might be a winner in this have handled the right way, is what I'm trying to say.

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (26:28)
Welcome to the UAE, already. I think what's important by this was I had a meeting with all the businesses people back in the UAE. One question is, I always sit down... When I sit with them is asking, "How can I improve your profitability by 10%?" It's not about what challenges you, it's not about what's the problem is. Its profit they want to make. And business people really speak about profitability, whatever it is, the questions to the audience, as well as to everyone. How can the UAE improve your profitability by 10% in the region? And that's something which really can push a lot of discussions and the challenges away.

Danny Sebright: (27:05)
With a billion and a half people coming into the middle-class in China, of course, the flip side is; China's a huge market that you, the United States, no country can ignore and has to take very seriously. And it's very important.

Danny Sebright: (27:18)
We have a couple of minutes left. I want to talk about that... You talked about everyone from the world coming to the UAE. I want to talk about the greatest show on earth that's going to open here on 1 October. Say a few words about Expo 2020, please. And what people are going to find there. I was out at the site last week when I was in the UAE and I can't wait. This is going to be amazing.

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (27:40)
Expo is going to be really amazing. The Expo was ready last year. We are more ready than last year today and I think it's important. We already to receive the world. We're ready to see people face-to-face. I'm tired of the virtual calls and being behind screens. And I think its time for really showing up and being there, physically discussing, discussing a lot, conversing on so many ideas. There's so many things to see in the Expo 2020. And I think the world is ready, the UAE is ready to really host and Dubai is a place to be in October, till March. It's a great weather as well. So you're going to enjoy the beaches as well.

Danny Sebright: (28:20)
You want to add to that?

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (28:21)
We invite everyone to see the future, on the futuristic technologies. As his excellency said, we were ready since last year as the technology were on place in site. But we really invite up the ones who come and see on how come we take the UAE's technologies, ideas, and innovative ways of finding things. Pull and scale them up from the UAE to the whole globe.

Danny Sebright: (28:46)
Well, Saud and I, have been working on Expo for 10 years and with her Excellency Reema Al Hashmi. And I have to tell you, I just can't wait. It's going to be an amazing welcoming of the world to your country. So thank you for the hospitality that's about to come.

Danny Sebright: (29:03)
I asked you a question yesterday in Washington, and just very short, we have just a few seconds left. It's time to be positive about the future of the world coming out of this global pandemic. Tell me something positive you each say to your children about the future and when you talk to them at night at the dinner table.

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (29:21)
Well, my discussions, I think yesterday I was you telling, Danny, about when I seat with my nine year old daughter, and we all speak about the future. It's a challenge that we always try to convince a nine year old, at least what type of job they're going to hold 10 years from now. And I think that's something which is very important. The skill set is not the skill set today that is going to be there next 10 years. So trying to inspire them, trying to push that there is a lot of part for the youth to focus on. She wants to be a jewel maker. So she does a lot of jewelry and stuff, so she should be a designer and stuff. So she wants to be that. So, yeah, I'm pushing for that.

H.E. Dr. Thani Ahmed Al Zeyoudi: (30:02)
Two things. First one, they have to ensure that they are very well equipped to the quick changes that are happening on a daily basis. And the other thing is that they have to be a global citizen, as you rephrased yesterday very well. They should not stick to their technology. They have to go and meet people in person, and they have to do the balance. And we as politicians, we have to ensure that the infrastructure is there to do this balance.

Danny Sebright: (30:29)
Outstanding. And someone asked me to ask the question, you do tell them about Anthony Scaramucci and SALT, right?

H.E. Abdulla Bin Touq Al Marri: (30:36)
Yeah, of course.

Danny Sebright: (30:36)
You talk to them about, Anthony, all the time. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining today. Thanks to our guests for joining.

Open Your Mind – How Psychedelics Can Cure Mental Health Issues & Make You Happy | #SALTNY

Open Your Mind – How Psychedelics Can Cure Mental Health Issues & Make You Happy with Christian Angermayer, Founder, Apeiron Investment Group.

Moderated by Kara Swisher, Host, Sway.

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MODERATOR

SPEAKER

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Christian Angermayer

Founder

Apeiron Investment Group

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Kara Swisher

Host

Sway

TIMESTAMPS

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Kara Swisher: (00:00)
Hi everybody. So for the final session of the day, we're going to talk about drugs, which is, I think, welcome. So this is actually a topic a lot of people laugh about the issues of psychedelics and it's very San Francisco. And I'll just say my background, I've been talking to tech billionaires about psychedelics for years, because a lot of them are interested in it. They're investing in it. They take them, they think they're important, but now it's sort of created a shift now into being a real business, sort of following the weed becoming an industry and stuff like that. So, Christian, why don't you talk a little bit about what you're doing, because I'd like to start talking about, before we talk about the actual which ones do what, and where the promising parts are, talk about the business of it first.

Christian Angermayer: (00:50)
Okay. Hello, everybody pleasure to be here. So in my day job, that's not a topic. I'm just saying it because I read that's the subtitle. I'm running my own family office, Apeiron. We do investing companies. But once in a while, when we have an original idea nobody else ever had, we start companies and we did start a company, which is in meantime, listed on NASDAQ, which is called ATAI Life Sciences. And ATAI is actually working on bringing various psychedelic substances back from sort of the illegal realm, where they are now, into the medical world, as a treatment for various mental health issues.

Kara Swisher: (01:28)
And so the idea is many of these drugs from LSD to ketamine to mescalin.

Christian Angermayer: (01:36)
[crosstalk 00:01:36].

Kara Swisher: (01:36)
All kinds of things have been mostly sidelined because they're considered class one drugs, correct? In the United States, at least that's the case. And during the seventies, they were sort of demonized in a lot of ways. And it was sort of counter cultural, the Nixon administration cracked down on them, and it's been going on like that for many years. Now, many of them are getting big investments from different people. So talk about your investors. So people an idea of who's making these investments.

Christian Angermayer: (02:02)
Well, in the meantime, we're listed, so everybody can be an investor, but I'm the founder. I also was the guy who put in the first money because back then most people said I'm insane. Literally. But I had several early stage investors, Peter Thiel, Mike Novogratz, Louis Bacon, [inaudible 00:02:22], and some other us who really very early when we did our first rounds, trusted in the topic and me and so far so good.

Kara Swisher: (02:31)
So what do you think they're seeing here? A big business? They like to get high? What? I'm teasing.

Christian Angermayer: (02:38)
I think first of all, it's a very short period that these drugs have been or are still illegal. Actually, if you look at human history, these drugs, most of them, the nature ones, because some are synthetic now, but the nature ones are used since thousands of years. Actually, it's a super interesting topic. Too much for today. But most religions and a friend of mine, I can promote the book because it's amazing, The Immortality Key, he has proven, Brian Muraresku, that most religions, including Christianity are based on psychedelic consumption. So this is a long, psychedelics are you could even say the foundation partly of human civilization. There was the famous cult of Demeter in Greece where all the philosophers went to and Plato is writing in one of his philosophical books that all of his philosophical ideas, which our Western world partly is built on, he got during the Eleusinian Mysteries, which were a psychedelic cult, ergot and magic mushrooms. So it was out there for long.

Christian Angermayer: (03:38)
And then the only short period was in the sixties and seventies, when two things happened. First of all, great, some of these drugs had been actually, which gives me and gave my investors the confidence that we are on the right track, some of these drugs had been used in the fifties and sixties as medication. For example, psilocybin, the ingredient in magic mushrooms-

Kara Swisher: (03:59)
Magic mushrooms.

Christian Angermayer: (03:59)
The active, yeah, was by Sandoz, actually, a famous Swiss pharma brand. And it all went fine until it practically got a little bit occupied, I would say, taken over, in a nice way actually, by the hippies, nobody cared, by the way.

Kara Swisher: (04:13)
Timothy Leary and others.

Christian Angermayer: (04:15)
At the beginning though, and I want to point it out, which shows where the sort of laugh of the hippie movement came from, because sort of they did the good stuff. They did sort of LSD, magic mushrooms, cannabis, which makes you, I always say, a better human being. And it was legal or at least medically legal. And then the sin fall of politics came when the hippie generation became political, went against the Vietnam war. So they were looking at the politics at the time. Politicians at the time were looking at them and were like, how can we paint them bad? What's a bad spin we can put on them? Oh, look at them. They're taking that stuff, which is technically illegal outside the hospital. It was legal and they started faking stuff, the government, like putting all these wrong stories out.

Christian Angermayer: (05:04)
It makes you crazy. Why? Because they could say, you must be crazy if you're going against the Vietnam war, if you're going against the establishment. And sadly, back then mental health was not, or thanks God and sadly now it's a big thing, but back then, mental health was not a big thing. So this was a niche disease while it's now the biggest sort problem of our system. So nobody sort of fought for it. It's just happened.

Kara Swisher: (05:31)
Right and what came in their place, which is interesting, there's a very good book out. I just did a podcast with Michael Pollan, who's written two books. One is called Changing Your Mind, which was about this idea of psychedelic use. And the second one is the one he just put out and it's more about three drugs, coffee, peyote, masculine, and opium itself. And he was writing about sort of the history of all three of them. People don't realize coffee is one of the biggest psychotropic drugs that is everyone is addicted on the planet to it, but it's a useful drug because it gets people to work, stops people being drunk at work, which was the way a lot of people were, et cetera. And so we used psychotropics in lots of different ways and we don't think about it. But one of the things that was interesting to me was how drugs go in and out of favor.

Kara Swisher: (06:17)
And one of the things, when he was talking about the opium issues, he was trying to grow opium because he wanted to see, but it actually it's legal to grow poppies if you don't know you're growing them, because they're drugs. It's all these weird laws are going in. And so he did a story that he couldn't publish in a magazine, in Harper's I think many years ago and because if he wrote that he knew what he was doing and making tea from it, he could be arrested and have all his property taken away from him, which was astonishing. Meanwhile, miles away from him, the big pharma was creating, I'm blanking on that name of the company.

Christian Angermayer: (06:57)
Oxycontin.

Kara Swisher: (06:58)
Oxycontin, right, exactly.

Christian Angermayer: (06:59)
The Sacklers. Horrible.

Kara Swisher: (07:01)
Creating Oxycontin. And so opiates took over and that's how they began treating these illnesses. And so that became fully legal and much abused while psychedelics were put into the penalty box of illegal drugs.

Christian Angermayer: (07:15)
So there are many theories. Honestly, sometimes I think mistakes happen in history. So there's another theory, which says, if you look at human history in times of where you needed labor, governments, this meaning thousands of years, were favoring alcohol and nicotine and stuff like that because it makes you fall in line and somehow still work. And in times when you have enough human labor, you allow people more to explore their mind and check out. So that's another, when you look over the history. I think it just was like a political scam and like it worked. Unfortunately nobody fought for it. And anyway, we're here now and we turning it back.

Kara Swisher: (07:58)
Yeah. So here on now with opiates under siege and very dangerous for people to use, to abuse, the Sacklers are in a lot of trouble, refusing to pay, but eventually we'll be paying quite a price for that.

Christian Angermayer: (08:11)
Hopefully.

Kara Swisher: (08:11)
And the governments who allowed it and everybody else. So it caused all this sort of a public health crisis in that way. So talk a little bit about what brought these other drugs back? I remember early on when I'm covering Silicon Valley people, I was joking about it, but they really were every week I was offered either come do ayahuasca with me. Wouldn't you like to do mushrooms? Would you like to do LSD? My answer was always, "No, I don't even want to have coffee with you. So no." But it was really interesting because at first it was a mind exploring kind of thing. Now it's moved to a different thing. There's all these studies going on at John's Hopkins and different places. Talk a little bit of how it moved to trials in order to treat things, then we'll talk about what it's treating because this is a very big business as far as I can tell.

Christian Angermayer: (08:56)
So what I'm very, very proud of, so we did not invent it, but we reinvented the business. We were literally in this millennia, the first one. I had a personal trip in a country where it's legal in 2014. And back then it was not even a topic in Silicon Valley. So none of my friends had ever taken it. This was maybe I had friends who were really hippies, it was 2014, was very early. And it was definitely not a business topic because even then to the years after, when I talked to some Silicon Valley folks who did it, they were like, but it's never going to, it's not possible to bring these drugs back. And my first trip and then the ones to follow in a country where it's legal were hands down, the single most important thing I've ever done in my whole life. Full stop.

Christian Angermayer: (09:44)
Nothing comes close to it. And because I'm an entrepreneur, I actually already, after the first trip, literally the next day, I was like, okay, holy shit. If it's giving this amount of positivity to me and I was always a very happy person. So I had the luck and didn't come to the topic by searching for something. I actually did not want to do it. For a year, I was like, no. I've never drank an alcohol in my whole life ever. I've never smoked weed. I've never took anything else than 2014. And coffee. Indeed I had coffee, I ate sugar. But everything else I didn't do because I was so happy growing up. I was okay, I'm happy, I'm not dumb, I think I have the genetic jackpot because a lot of other people are not happy. Anyway, I took it, was blown away by the positivity it even added to me. And I was like, okay, this needs to be medically available again. That was for me the clear entrepreneurial impetus and this led then ultimately to the-

Kara Swisher: (10:45)
Usually it's because people are just taking it themselves. They're only doing it themselves and it's not the whole idea of it being either guided or medically prescribed by qualified people now. And many of these drugs are not addictive. Most of them are not addictive.

Christian Angermayer: (11:02)
All. Actually all of them.

Kara Swisher: (11:03)
All of them?

Christian Angermayer: (11:04)
All psychedelics are not addictive. They are even dissolving addiction. So all psychedelics have an addiction dissolving ability. The strongest one, which we also advance in clinical trials is called Ibogaine. And Ibogaine has a high potential in the first clinical studies we're doing to even cure opioid addiction, which is the strongest. Opioids, on the scale, psychedelics, non addictive. Opioids, extremely addictive. This is the whole problem here. And the only drug known, which shows this potential to cure opioid addiction is Ibogaine.

Kara Swisher: (11:43)
All right. So let's go through them. Let's go through the best known ones and where they are in terms of trials and creating businesses. I've noticed recently and I'm having the code conference next two weeks from now, one whole day is going to be about this. We're going to do one whole day about all these psychotropic drug companies that are coming up and things like that, including some mind ones that are not drug related, but they're doing all these different things, technical things with your brains, wearing helmets, all kinds of different things. But one of the things that interested me was a company called Field Trip, which is setting up clinics that you go to.

Kara Swisher: (12:17)
Now, there's not many of those right now, but let's talk about where each of the drugs first is and then what are the businesses that fall off of them? Because you've seen the weed business grow quite a lot, even though it's up and down, up and down largely because it's not federally mandated here, for example. So let's start with the very simple one, which is psilocybin. Mushrooms. So talk a little bit about where those are on the development scale to a commercial product.

Christian Angermayer: (12:43)
Yep. By the way, as a of a framework, because that's sort of it, you are completely right. It is not cannabis. It's completely different. This is not a consumer product. We want it to be a medical product. And because we, with ATAI and then we have a stake in a company called Compass Pathways, which is doing psilocybin, and we do all the rest, because we go through all these clinical trials, which are very expensive, we were able to get all the IP around these substances. So this is not a business where multiple companies will do these drugs.

Kara Swisher: (13:16)
Right. I mean, I was just in San Francisco and there are now cannabis shrimp chips.

Christian Angermayer: (13:25)
Exactly. And it's not going to happen.

Kara Swisher: (13:25)
They're disgusting. I tell you, but nonetheless, it's very consumer focused, it's very-

Christian Angermayer: (13:27)
This is medical trials. We want to make them approved like a medication.

Kara Swisher: (13:32)
And this will be medically treated through clinics and things?

Christian Angermayer: (13:35)
Exactly. So most we have some drugs where we might, and we have to see what comes out of the trials, but where we have the sort of, let's say justified hope, that there are one or two which could be used at home because we can modify the disassociative effect. For example, R-ketamine.

Kara Swisher: (13:51)
Which one?

Christian Angermayer: (13:53)
R-ketamine, which is a new version of ketamine. But overall amount or overall number of ATAI's drugs in development will be used or will just be allowed, and we want them just to be allowed-

Kara Swisher: (14:07)
For therapeutics.

Christian Angermayer: (14:08)
With therapists sitting next to you.

Kara Swisher: (14:09)
So if you have PTSD, depression?

Christian Angermayer: (14:12)
Anxiety, addiction, obesity, anorexia, name it. By the way, you can really name any and normally psychedelics work, but the important thing is because the trip itself, you go on a trip this is not like light, don't take it lightly. And the trip itself can be very challenging. I don't like the word bad trip because people come out and are potentially healed. But what happens a lot, all these mental health issues, you have them for a reason and one, it's various, but is trauma. There's let's call it the obvious trauma. A person was raped and knows it. A person was at war like a soldier and knows it.

Christian Angermayer: (14:53)
But trauma can be also something which hurt you deeply, but you don't even remember it. This can be a childhood thing in school and this comes up. But when you dissolve that trauma, the trip itself can be very challenging. Again, bad is the wrong word. It's challenging, but you come out healed. But during that process, you need somebody, not for medical reasons in terms of there's nothing your body does, but it's somebody, this is why psychotherapist, will the one doing it and then psychologists who literally this is where the word comes from, takes you on the trip and kill with you.

Kara Swisher: (15:24)
All right. So let's go through that. So psilocybin. That's the most popular that I can tell,

Christian Angermayer: (15:29)
Which is the ingredient in magic mushrooms and our company Compass Pathways will announce end of the year, phase two B data.

Kara Swisher: (15:37)
Phase?

Christian Angermayer: (15:38)
Two B. And for the ones who are not familiar with biotech, you have normally 1, 2, 3. So the final one, which needs to be still done is three and then it's approved. So they are some years away from approval, but not a lot. There's going to be two things.

Kara Swisher: (15:52)
And there's a lot different trials going on, correct?

Christian Angermayer: (15:53)
But all the trials for medical are just done by Compass.

Kara Swisher: (15:57)
Okay. So what will be the uses for psilocybin?

Christian Angermayer: (16:01)
Depression. So the trial is done for treatment resistant depression. But you then can do postmarketing studies and once a drug is approved, you can also use it for other stuff, obviously. So if the doctors have it available, then it's upon the therapist to say, "Oh, okay. It's approved to a treatment resistant depression. This is where I see the data. But I can use it for PTSD as well." And we going to do more studies, so there is several other studies Compass is doing in parallel to show also the use case for other-

Kara Swisher: (16:37)
But it's mostly around depression?

Christian Angermayer: (16:39)
The signature study, which is the approval study is around treatment resistant depression.

Kara Swisher: (16:43)
Of depression. As opposed to many other drugs people use to treat depression. And this would standardize the use of psilocybin, correct?

Christian Angermayer: (16:52)
You mean like-

Kara Swisher: (16:53)
Meaning we would know how much. Because one of the things I remember when I was talking to one of the people who were working on this, they said, "There's a lot of magic mushrooms in Berkeley." A lot of people in Berkeley, California, and it's so much so that it gets everywhere. The spores get everywhere that they have, they have the happiest squirrels ever in Berkeley, California. Go see, it's actually true.

Christian Angermayer: (17:15)
The regulator made it very clear, and it's also imperative, we talking about yes, mushrooms or psilocybin is originally in nature, magic mushrooms. But we synthesize it and it's the synthetic version of it because you need to dose it exactly. Everybody who done.

Kara Swisher: (17:32)
And it would be dosed via pill?

Christian Angermayer: (17:36)
Yes. Orally. Yeah.

Kara Swisher: (17:36)
Orally. Okay. All right. Next one. Ketamine.

Christian Angermayer: (17:39)
So ketamine, it's a very interesting story. There is an original ketamine, which is an anesthetic. So it's used as a tranquilizer.

Kara Swisher: (17:46)
For horses.

Christian Angermayer: (17:46)
No for humans.

Kara Swisher: (17:46)
I'm teasing.

Christian Angermayer: (17:49)
Yeah. Okay, good.

Kara Swisher: (17:50)
It's not some dewormer.

Christian Angermayer: (17:51)
It's also used for horses.

Kara Swisher: (17:51)
It is, it is.

Christian Angermayer: (17:53)
But because horses are so sensitive animals, not because it's actually a very-

Kara Swisher: (17:56)
You have to be careful talking about horse medicine these days, but go ahead.

Christian Angermayer: (18:00)
Exactly. This is why, so it's a human tranquilizer.

Kara Swisher: (18:04)
Yes it is. My brother's an anesthesiologist. He uses it all the time.

Christian Angermayer: (18:08)
Perfect. And then anecdotally doctors found out that patients who took it because they were in the emergency room or whatever that they reported and who were depressive or even had tried to kill themselves and this is why they were in the emergency room, came back the next day or wake up and they were like, oh my God, I'm happy.

Christian Angermayer: (18:26)
Why did I try to kill myself? Life is awesome. Anecdotally, we found out about the antidepressant effect of ketamine. What is then very sad, which also shows one of my favorite topics, controversial, I mean, not here, I think, but about the value of patterns, because a lot of people are saying, oh Christian, how have you been able or was it actually ethically right that you own psilocybin or we own all these, the synthetic ones we own the patents, and the only way to pay for these trials is to make a business out of it. So ketamine was out of patents. So nobody was proving it. There was anecdotal evidence, people were doing it, but anecdotal evidence is never enough to really bring a good drug to the people. Niches are doing it. Rich people are doing it.

Kara Swisher: (19:12)
They are.

Christian Angermayer: (19:13)
But the woman in Iowa, the doctor will not give her ketamine because his risk of losing his license if something goes wrong if it's not approved for depression is super high. And then they found a while ago that ketamine consists of two, let's say for here, like subversions. The one, they called R-ketamine for right turning and the other one S for left turning, S-ketamine and they were patentable. And that allowed both us with R-ketamine and Johnson & Johnson with S-ketamine to advance clinical trials, because you suddenly had a patent again. So you had a business model around it. And S-ketamine was actually approved by Johnson & Johnson, I think two years ago now one and a half years ago. So now this is what Field Trip is doing, you can have clinics now where you get officially S-ketamine from Johnson & Johnson, because it's approved now for depression and now doctors starting prescribing it.

Christian Angermayer: (20:07)
And we believe R-ketamine is even more potent and especially has a less disassociative effect. So it could be to be proven in trials that R-ketamine is approved for at home use versus use with a doctor because what we all shouldn't forget, and that's the sad part of that whole, is how big the crisis is. And we have 1 billion people globally suffering from one of the diseases we just touched. And we need to make sure because even if the drugs are approved, there will be a bottleneck of therapists, clinics, whatsoever. So it would be very positive if one or two of these drugs, the milder ones so to say, could be approved for use at home.

Kara Swisher: (20:51)
For home use. So you'd get it under a prescription, but then you can use-

Christian Angermayer: (20:55)
Obviously prescription, but for use without a therapist. And R-ketamine has that potential.

Kara Swisher: (21:00)
And this is for, again, what precisely would it be aimed at depression again, PTSD, same things?

Christian Angermayer: (21:07)
They all work, because it's also very near together. Like you normally have one lead indication where you sort of prove it and then you can do more studies to sort of-

Kara Swisher: (21:19)
But it's around depression? The same-

Christian Angermayer: (21:21)
So ketamine is also for depression, the lead study of ours, yeah.

Kara Swisher: (21:24)
Okay. MDMA.

Christian Angermayer: (21:26)
MDMA makes you happy.

Kara Swisher: (21:31)
I understand.

Christian Angermayer: (21:32)
MDMA is very good for post traumatic, again, MDMA is good for a lot of things, but in the lead study, which is not done by us for MDMA, but which is done by MAPS. Rick Doblin. He's amazing. So we are like the for-profit leader and Rick has a nonprofit called MAPS. So whoever wants to donate, he's the one who really deserves it. And they are advancing MDMA. They are in phase three, actually. So again, it should also be a year.

Kara Swisher: (22:03)
This is a widely used recreational drug too, right now. I mean, it's illegal.

Christian Angermayer: (22:07)
Yes, but illegal as a recreational drug.

Kara Swisher: (22:09)
It's illegal, everybody uses it.

Christian Angermayer: (22:11)
It's still illegal. But it's going to be hopefully legal soon, thanks to Rick for, again, lead indication is post traumatic stress disorder, but can be used for other stuff as well.

Kara Swisher: (22:21)
So anxiety. What would that be prescribed for medically?

Christian Angermayer: (22:26)
Anxiety-

Kara Swisher: (22:27)
A nicer person?

Christian Angermayer: (22:30)
We do have... Beg your pardon?

Kara Swisher: (22:30)
The be a nicer person disease we suffer in this country from.

Christian Angermayer: (22:32)
Which one? MDMA?

Kara Swisher: (22:33)
Yeah. MDMA, yeah.

Christian Angermayer: (22:34)
No, it's it's post traumatic stress disorder.

Kara Swisher: (22:36)
Stress disorder, yeah, right, but it could by-

Christian Angermayer: (22:38)
By the way, they all make you a nicer person. That is-

Kara Swisher: (22:40)
I'm sorry?

Christian Angermayer: (22:40)
All of them make you a nicer person. That is I think truly, I think ultimately, so we jumping now, but again, it's very important, very powerful drugs, medical business, but you've seen a lot of medical... I mean, you take aspirin. It's a drug, but it was used, I don't even know which aspirin was originally, but then you realize it has more properties and some when I think maybe people who don't have a depression but who have other wishes or want to improve,

Christian Angermayer: (23:15)
By the way, MDMA was amazing for marriage therapy. Like this was one of the original use cases. Marriage therapy is not a disease. We cannot go to the regulator and say, "Hey, if two people don't like each other anymore, can we?" But once MDMA is approved, or other of psychedelics, a doctor can say, a psychologist can say, "You are a couple, you should do marriage therapy." And if they do it with the psychotherapist, it's going to be legal. So there's always the starting point. But then our point of view is the therapist knows the patient.

Kara Swisher: (23:49)
Sure, but it's not going to be marketed as an anti-divorce drug, right? It's going to be used as a-

Christian Angermayer: (23:54)
Oh, if you would know how many big investors I save their settlements, it is an amazing if one of you many, you all want to make money, you're going to lose 50% of your money if you get divorced, depending on which contract you have. So before you go with bad routes, try to find at the moment, the shaman in a country where it's legal, who does either psychedelic or MDMA therapy with you. It could be the most valuable financial advice I've ever given to you.

Kara Swisher: (24:22)
Oh, all right. Okay. All right. Thank you for that. Thank you. And if you don't end up liking your spouse after MDMA, you really should get divorced.

Christian Angermayer: (24:30)
Exactly. No, that's the point. It shows you what you really want and then at least you know.

Kara Swisher: (24:34)
Yeah. So at least you go, yeah, I do hate you. That really is. I don't want to hug you right now. So MDMA-

Christian Angermayer: (24:40)
A side note, because I'm really proud of it. It was used a lot also in political, how do you say, conflict resolutions in history of humanity. So I'm funding Imperial College's program where we make very right wing Israelis and very bad Hezbollah fighters trip together and come up with a peace plan because it didn't work out so far without. No, seriously, I think if you look how messed up that is and how bad the situation it is, I think you need a new point of view and that's another property psychedelics do. They take you out of the ordinary and give you a new point of view. And we going to release, I think, it's not approval studies. It's like social.

Kara Swisher: (25:23)
Yeah, there's quite a few leaders I would put on it then.

Christian Angermayer: (25:26)
Exactly. I think in the future, I'm on the board of, I can't say it now, okay. I think in the future, politicians will trip together in 10, 20 years as a part of-

Kara Swisher: (25:34)
So they should be required.

Christian Angermayer: (25:34)
What?

Kara Swisher: (25:37)
So politician mandate. MDMA if they want to be a politician.

Christian Angermayer: (25:41)
I think we're far away from mandated, but I think it wouldn't be bad.

Kara Swisher: (25:44)
Yeah. That's another word we're not supposed to talk about right now.

Christian Angermayer: (25:46)
It wouldn't be bad.

Kara Swisher: (25:47)
So the next thing, I guess the biggest one, there's one that is talked about a lot in Silicon Valley, in tech a lot, is ayahuasca. Which is another one. Talk about that.

Christian Angermayer: (25:58)
So ayahuasca is a brew in South America and the active ingredient is called DMT. And we advance DMT for also treatment resistant depression. It's a very strong psychedelic. I don't want to say it's similar to, because they all have a little are similar or different. It's just stronger and then you can take it in different ways. So you can inhale it, then it's a short acting. And you can drink it, then it's a longer acting. And then actually it works on different stuff. But it has very strong antidepressant again, anti-

Kara Swisher: (26:36)
So even a stronger drug for that or more?

Christian Angermayer: (26:39)
Yes.

Kara Swisher: (26:40)
It has hallucinatory aspect.

Christian Angermayer: (26:40)
To be proven on paper. Sorry, I'm always so hesitant because there is all these anecdotal evidence. So the amazing thing, and I'm in biotech since 20 years, is normally you don't know what trial outcome is. In this case, okay, we still have to see the outcome, but we have all this anecdotal evidence. We know how these drugs work, people are using it. Then some of them had been already medically available. We have all the data. However, I still have to say and this is what I'm very proud of because we will prove it once and for all. So hopefully in some years we can sit here and I don't have to say potentially they're doing this.

Kara Swisher: (27:13)
Right. Sure. Okay. I want to talk about one last drug and then talk about how you get it back into a mainstream thinking where people don't think about it the way they've sort of moving on weed. They are. People are much more accepting of that in most and I don't want to get to that yet. But I want to talk to LSD. Because that's I think the one that has the most baggage with it, and I know most investors are very worried about funding these things. There's some investors like Tim Ferriss, there's Peter Thiel, some others who are fine moving into some of these spaces, but that's the one where they get a little nervous.

Christian Angermayer: (27:47)
LSD is different. We don't do LSD. Not because I think it's not good. I think it's actually awesome. But it has a 12 hour thing. And it does more or less the same than psilocybin. And again, my view is we need to think what makes sense in the healthcare system and the healthcare system will need to pay, or the patient will need to pay for the therapist sitting next to him. So if I can have the same outcome with psilocybin, which is around about a four hour trip or LSD, which is around about a 12 hour trip, we will always take psilocybin. There is no medical place in our point of view for LSD, not because it's not good, but because you want to actually, this is why DMT is so interesting because DMT, if you inhale it or if you take it intravenous, then it's actually 15 minutes around about and actually, because we need to-

Kara Swisher: (28:39)
So you're looking for something for a shorter amount of time with most efficacy, essentially.

Christian Angermayer: (28:43)
Yeah, because we want to make a reasonable, it makes it commercial viable.

Kara Swisher: (28:47)
So it's not that it's got the criminal baggage.

Christian Angermayer: (28:50)
No, I would fund it immediately if I would see a commercial opportunity,

Kara Swisher: (28:53)
A commercial thing. And one I left out, which Michael Pollan does write about in the book, which is mescaline, which there's the peyote cactus, which is only used by Native Americans and it's used in the Native American church, but now they have a synthetic version and they there's other cactus. I forget the cactus that works.

Christian Angermayer: (29:10)
As we don't do it, it's the least familiar. So I don't want to-

Kara Swisher: (29:15)
Right. But that's another one that's getting attention, correct?

Christian Angermayer: (29:17)
Yes. Yep.

Kara Swisher: (29:19)
Which builds communities, from what I understand. It's very good around building communities, about getting along about-

Christian Angermayer: (29:24)
I think it's, but again, because I think it's in a similar sort league that MDMA, it has more psychoactive effect, but it's indeed heart opening, which you get it with MDMA actually from our point of view.

Kara Swisher: (29:36)
Right. Okay. So all these different drugs, there's a lot of them. There's a lot of them and there's more synthetic versions coming out and they're trying different things. Most people say the non-synthetic versions are the better versions, but at some point it will be hard to understand the difference. How do you get investors to think about it as a eventual business? And how do you get governments? Because this is something you could see certain politicians, oh, we're going to be making money, you saw the same thing play out over just weed. This is much more drugs with a lot more baggage around them.

Christian Angermayer: (30:10)
It actually I mean we already did. So it's sort of we do the studies. It's not a question anymore. The great thing is it's happening. These reclassification is happening automatically. It's not that we want to change. We don't want politicians to make a political call on it. What we are saying is we going to go like every other medical drug in the world, we going to go through the FDA process. And at the end of the FDA process is an outcome, which is hopefully confirming the anecdotal evidence we have that these drugs are very useful for in a medical context. And then it's an automatism that they reschedule. There is no political lobbying. We don't want any favors because it is a scientific decision at the end. Can we show what we all see?

Kara Swisher: (30:57)
And then I have just two more questions and then we have to go, but how do you get consumers to think of it this way, people who are suffering from-

Christian Angermayer: (31:04)
We don't need the consumer. Two things, which are important. The one is we have it is the biggest problem of the healthcare system. So if you talk to any doctor, they are completely aware of it because again global-

Kara Swisher: (31:15)
Mental health?

Christian Angermayer: (31:16)
Mental health, as a whole.

Kara Swisher: (31:17)
Just walk down the street, but go ahead.

Christian Angermayer: (31:19)
Look at so many [crosstalk 00:31:19].

Kara Swisher: (31:19)
Everybody is traumatized, right now.

Christian Angermayer: (31:25)
And let me give you the official number is 1 billion people. That already makes it the biggest opportunity and the biggest problem at the same time in healthcare. Second, it is still a stigmatized disease. So it's starting to get destigmatized. But gradually. And that means the number is way higher. I don't know the true number, but it's-

Kara Swisher: (31:46)
So it's a market.

Christian Angermayer: (31:46)
It's a huge market. But let's say the true number is maybe one and a half billion, but it's way higher because I know so many people who not go to the doctor who, meaning a friend of mine who a big famous singer, he made a survey among his fans. He's a [inaudible 00:32:01], like 80% of his fans said in a survey, it's not a scientific survey, but why should they lie? After COVID and he has the fan, 15 to 25, I would say, is they have mental health issues. 80%. And we actually, if you look at it, it's just a tie who, and Compass together who has the solution because all the other shit, like SSRIs, opioids, many, they numb people and we need to find cures, not numb them and make them zombies.

Christian Angermayer: (32:33)
And then additionally, I think the world we live in is not good for our brain. We all love it. We have the whole day of Bitcoin and technology and biotech and da, da, da. And we love it, but it's actually terrifying for our brain because our brain wants stability and we never had never, ever was the world, I don't want to say instable, but that fast changing. Again, your conference is the sort of synonym for fast changing. But that makes people mentally traumatized. So the number will go up. I personally would say ultimately the total addressable market for mental health is a hundred percent of the population because everybody wants, what do we all want? We can say, "Oh, we want to be rich. We want to have good sex." Whatever. But ultimately we want two things. We want to be healthy and happy and everybody has other things which make them happy. But that's what it narrows it down. And we've solved the happiness part.

Kara Swisher: (33:25)
So two last questions, very quickly, how much money is going into this right now? I'm seeing a lot of money move this way.

Christian Angermayer: (33:31)
So I can talk about us, we raised over $500 million.

Kara Swisher: (33:33)
500 million.

Christian Angermayer: (33:34)
Over 500 million, 600-ish.

Kara Swisher: (33:39)
Easy?

Christian Angermayer: (33:40)
At the beginning, it was easy because I'm a too big a founder because I have my investment business, so I funded it myself and I had friends who trusted me. So yes. So easy, not easy.

Kara Swisher: (33:51)
So a lot of money is moving.

Christian Angermayer: (33:52)
But actually our IPO was very easy because over the last 12 months, that sort of view on psychedelics, we're sitting here, we're talking about it, has changed, but that was just the last 12 months.

Kara Swisher: (34:02)
Right. Okay. I'm going to ask the last question. We only have one more minute. You yourself have taken these drugs, right?

Christian Angermayer: (34:07)
Yeah. In a country where it's legal.

Kara Swisher: (34:10)
One of the things that they push for me in Silicon Valley is that it opens their mind to new innovation. They think it's an innovation drug, a lot of these things. Talk very briefly. We have 50 seconds.

Christian Angermayer: (34:23)
Okay. The short version is, by the way, this is a side effect. This is not the medical effect. So it's not medical advice. But if you look at how our brain works, roundabout when you're 30, you start losing the creative power, innovation. If you're 20, the world is your oyster. You are in awe of the wonders of world, and it's going down. The good thing is when you're getting older, you build up craftsmanship and knowledge and whatever and what you ideally want, and what Steve Jobs is actually writing in his bio is, you want the knowledge and the craftsmanship of a 50 year old combined with the innovative power of a 20 year old. And again, I have to say carefully, but there is strong anecdotal evidence that psychedelics and especially certain ones are giving you back for good, not just during the trip that sort of innovative the power.

Christian Angermayer: (35:14)
And it gave me a hope, I would say, but it's super simplified because I could talk an hour about this one trip, but you can go into a psychedelic trip and have an intention. You can say, "Okay, I want to learn about my true self." You can go in a spiritual path. But one day I was like, because I was actually late-ish I started investing in crypto in 2016. And I was like, okay, what is this all about? And I had friends explaining it to me, Mike, and sort of the true sort of power of blockchain and crypto, I sort of figured out on a trip.

Kara Swisher: (35:47)
On a trip. Although you can't have some dumb ideas, I've heard some dumb ideas from some people on their trip.

Christian Angermayer: (35:52)
Well, again, this is all about the surrounding and the guidance in a country where it's legal with a practicer, with a shaman or somebody who's going with you. But this stuff definitely has potential.

Kara Swisher: (36:04)
All right. Everyone, Christian, this is actually a fascinating area. Thank you so much.

The Future of Food: Reducing Our Reliance on Animal Products | #SALTNY

The Future of Food: Reducing Our Reliance on Animal Products with Arturo Elizondo, Chief Executive Officer, Clara Foods. Dr. Jasmin Hume, Founder & Chief Executive Officer, Shiru.

Moderated by Sean O’Sullivan, Managing General Partner, SOSV.

Powered by RedCircle

 

SPEAKERS

Headshot - Elizondo, Arturo - Cropped.jpeg

Arturo Elizondo

Founder & Chief Executive Officer

Clara Foods

Headshot - Hume, Jasmin - Cropped.jpeg

Dr. Jasmin Hume

Founder & Chief Executive Officer

Shiru

 

MODERATOR

Headshot - O'Sullivan, Sean - Cropped.jpeg

Sean O’Sullivan

Managing Partner

SOSV

 

TIMESTAMPS

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Sean O'Sullivan: (00:07)
And this is Arturo Elizondo from Clara Foods and Jasmin Hume from Shiru and Ben Berman from NoMoo. So thanks all for coming today. And we're going to sit down and have a little bit of a chat about, what does it say? The future of food. So even before we get started and with the speakers introducing themselves, I'd like to find out if anyone understands what we're going to be talking about. Because we're actually taking a really new approach to how food is grown and how food is made. So first I'm going to ask, has anyone had alternative meats, like Beyond Burger or, yeah. Almost everyone's had that. Has anyone had an Impossible Burger? Okay. It's a different version of that. Has anyone tried and, that's basically plant-based meat. Sometimes with a little bit of specialty protein.

Sean O'Sullivan: (01:14)
That's fermented protein. That makes it more meat like. Then there's a next level down, which is precision fermentation. Has anyone tried any things like the Perfect Day ice creams? There's one, two, three, four, five. Wow. Okay. That's very good. You guys are very advanced. And that actually takes the animal out of the agriculture completely, but still has the same proteins and we'll describe a little bit what that is. So you're still having cow milk, it's just, no cow was involved in the making of the milk or the ice cream. And then, has anyone ever tried, really this is not even commercially available yet, but cellular agriculture and things like Memphis Meats or Upsight Foods as they're called right now where the meat itself is grown in filets, but no brain is attached to the meat. So it's like cow meat or chicken. Oh, got one there.

Sean O'Sullivan: (02:15)
So there's a couple of people here who were going really into the future. Well, we are redefining what a sustainable planet looks like. And the pink panelists that we have today with us here are people who are making that redefinition of how we grow food, how we make it without having over-reliance on industrial animal farming, which is, as people are probably aware of this, you've probably maybe seen some movies or heard some reports, but it's one of the great causes of global warming. The methane is being produced by the cows and the other animals and all of the other agriculture that's used to feed animals, which we then feed, which is just very, sometimes 30 times worse for the environment than actually just growing the food directly in bio-reactors.

Sean O'Sullivan: (03:18)
So we're going to find out about that future by talking to some of the leaders in the industry. But I first like to just, because it's such an unusual thing, I'm just going to set a little bit more context. SOSV, I'm an investor. We invest in a lot of these companies that are in this space. Like some of the companies we've mentioned there, but one of the things that I had growing up is I had a mom who was a diabetic. And I don't know if anyone knows anybody who's a diabetic, you inject insulin into your arms. Well, it used to be the only way that you could get insulin was to slaughter pigs and cows, take the pancreas out and then drain it out of the insulin. But then Genentech came along for pharmaceutical purposes and they figured out, "Hey, we can actually take the human gene, which produces human insulin, which is better than cow insulin or pig insulin, anyway. And we can grow it as a pharmaceutical and sell it in the little bottle."

Sean O'Sullivan: (04:23)
And guess what, fewer people died of all the contamination problems. It's a much better fit for human beings and life was improved, but only for pharmaceuticals and really, really high value proteins like insulin. What's happened in the intervening years is this incredible technological revolution these guys are leading that takes that process, which was once used only for pharmaceutical products. And there's other pharmaceutical products like human growth hormone or Viagra, or all the things that are grown that way. High expensive. But they're making it now available by growing it in vats and fermentation, just like beer is fermented, but where the output instead of beer or the output instead of human insulin is now commodity food products.

Sean O'Sullivan: (05:16)
That's a lot of what these teams here today are doing, is precision fermentation and getting the direct output, those hero proteins that we rely on for our ice creams or that used to require animals. And with that background, I'm sure I've confused many of you, but hopefully enlighten some. We're going to talk to some of the leaders in this industry. Arturo, do you want to tell us a brief rundown on what you do at Clara Foods?

Arturo Elizondo: (05:48)
Hi everyone. So I run Clara Foods, founded of the company almost seven years ago. We've been in R and D for the last six and a half years. And what we do is we make real animal protein without using a single animal. And we focus that specifically around in the B2B world in large part, because there's this massive gap in the industry around companies like the Kellogg's, General Mills, Walmarts of the world, trying to ride this transition of animal free alternate protein products, in large part because of companies like Beyond and like Impossible. [inaudible 00:06:23] who've really helped educate the market.. And so there's this massive gap in the infrastructure to help enable the world's largest food companies to transition. So that's really where we at Clara operate. So we're a B2B alternative animal protein platform, and we produce different kinds of animal proteins using yeast and fermenters.

Arturo Elizondo: (06:44)
So in the same way that brewers use yeast to convert sugar into alcohol, to make beer and wine, the yeast that we work with naturally converts that same sugar into protein. So we can engineer the yeast itself to produce different kinds of animal proteins, to make insulin or other kinds. And we specialize in egg proteins because they're super functional and over a trillion eggs are consumed every single year worldwide. Massive market that's been completely in many ways under penetrated. 99.8% of the egg market is still dominated by eggs. Only less than 0.2% isn't penetrated by anything that's not a egg. And so we see a huge opportunity there for us to help enable the broader food industry to transition into animal free future.

Sean O'Sullivan: (07:34)
Thank you, Arturo. And Jasmine, tell me what you guys do at Shiru.

Jasmin Hume : (07:38)
Yeah, absolutely. So building on the opportunity that Arturo just spoke about, and we'll probably talk more about this in the coming minutes, a huge opportunity in fueling the future of food by enabling better ingredients. So what we do at Shiru is actually look to the natural world, specifically non-animal proteins. So proteins that come from plants, fungi, cyanobacteria to increase the options, the diversity of the protein ingredients that food formulators have at their fingertips. There are 400,000 known plant species. We currently get 90% of our calories from 13 staple crops. And within each plant, there are 40,000 different proteins that are expressed. So the search space is huge. At Shiru we use tools like machine learning coupled with precision fermentation to create a wide variety of different functional protein ingredients that can ultimately replace things like dairy proteins, egg proteins, gelatin, a wide number of different functional ingredients that we currently derive from animals in far less sustainable ways.

Sean O'Sullivan: (08:53)
And on our left or your right, on the far right, Ben Berman from NoMoo. Now, NoMoo is the name and here's the joke behind NoMoo. It is milk proteins and milk products without the cows. That's why NoMoo, no moo. That is probably the way I should have been introduced to it.

Ben Berman: (09:12)
Thank you. And for the chuckles, I appreciate it.

Sean O'Sullivan: (09:18)
Go ahead.

Ben Berman: (09:18)
We're building a company called NoMoo that did a joint venture with Perfect Day. And Perfect Day, similar to the companies that you already heard about are doing precision fermentation on animal free whey protein. The way I explain it is we feed the DNA sequence of cows milk to yeast proteins. And with them ferment like you would a beer or a loaf of bread. At the end, we got a whey protein that is dairy identical, but it is animal free, lactose free. It is up to 97% fewer carbon emissions. And we are using that protein that Perfect Day has created to build out a beverage portfolio, an e-commerce company focused specifically on childhood nutrition. My background actually isn't in science. My background is in food. Quite literally, my background is in cheeseburgers, ice cream sandwiches and pizza, which are all three stories from other times.

Sean O'Sullivan: (10:06)
Really healthy.

Ben Berman: (10:07)
Very healthy, and also very heavy in dairy.

Ben Berman: (10:11)
And I approached this problem by saying, if I believe that the climate is the most urgent crisis that we were facing as a species, which I do, but I'm not sure that life is worth living without cheeseburgers, ice cream sandwiches and pizza. How can we reinvent those foods by putting less strain on the planet, but not compromising on the foods that we get to enjoy. And so along with Perfect Day, we are trying to reinvent those first few products. Milk, childhood nutritional shakes, animal free lactose, free yogurt, products that we love and enjoy every day. But we want to try to put far less strain on the environment. We want to treat our bodies better. We want to rethink the ingredients that we're putting into our food to create a healthier, more sustainable food system.

Sean O'Sullivan: (10:56)
Now, I think you guys here in the audience may be like, okay, milk without cows, eggs without chickens, hero proteins without plants even, growing these things and you're thinking, is this really going to ever happen? Or is this just a whole bunch of pipe dream? Well, I'm here to tell you one thing. Seven years ago, back to Perfect Day through our indie bio programs, we thought to the expression that Bill Gibson has, which is "The future is already here. It's just not evenly distributed." And even if you see in this room, the future was not evenly distributed in this room. Like there were only two people that knew about cellular agriculture who had ever had a meat that was grown, completely the same meat without a brain attached to it, like the Upside Foods technology.

Sean O'Sullivan: (11:57)
And a few of you had The Perfect Day sell milk products. So it's only seven years later that hundreds of thousands of people, since our first investment in Perfect Day, we're now hundreds of thousands of people have used it and tasted that product. But in another seven years, it will actually be billions of people. It's like the iPhone, in 2008 it didn't exist and people didn't think they even needed it, but it didn't take even seven years for people to know that they needed it. And what's happening with the food industry as these unstoppable trends continue where you can produce milk for four times cheaper than a cow can produce milk. It pretty much undercuts the industry and it makes it possible for everything to change in a way that we haven't seen in the food industry yet.

Sean O'Sullivan: (12:56)
It's only starting to happen now. It's like when the computers spreadsheets that people did by hand. And this is going to happen, it's an unstoppable force. And why don't you guys tell us a little bit about what are the things that are, you all have raised different amounts of money. Actually, this is very interesting because we have a pre-seed company at the end that's just raised $2 million. Shiru has just raised, Jasmine remind me.

Jasmin Hume : (13:27)
Our series I'd say, $17 million.

Sean O'Sullivan: (13:29)
$17 million. And on top of a couple of three or 4 million before that. And Arturo, what's your financing history? I'm not sure what you can say.

Arturo Elizondo: (13:38)
We've raised $64 million and then we're closing on a 120 in a couple weeks.

Sean O'Sullivan: (13:44)
So the different lengths of time that these companies have been out there and yet the products aren't yet in the market yet. And it may seem like nothing's happening, but in fact, it's happening at lightning speed. We're basically taking advantage of millions of years of evolution to produce natural products. Why don't you talk about what's happening next at your stage Arturo?

Arturo Elizondo: (14:15)
Yeah. Yeah. It's such a great question because to your point, it's almost like, it seems like nothing's happening. And then it happens all at once. And for context, it takes on average around seven years to bring a product from synthetic biology to the market. We did ours in five, which we launched it last year, it was a world's first animal free pepsin, which is a pig protein made now using fermentation. But normally it used to come from hog stomachs. That was really a nice proof point for us. But what we've been really focusing on for the last six years is developing the core technology to enable the broader infrastructure and a huge part of that is getting the technology, right, but two is, laying the groundwork for scale. And that's truly where, if we we're a penny cheaper than many of these multi billion dollar commodity markets, you start owning these markets.

Arturo Elizondo: (15:10)
And for us, the egg is a very affordable source of protein. So we need scale in addition to amazing technology to make that happen. And so over the last two years, we've been really working to lay the groundwork for scale. And what that means is that we partnered up with Ingredion, which is one of the world's largest ingredient distributor, ingredient companies in the world. They're in 120 countries. And that allows us to penetrate global markets far faster on the front end. And on the back end, we just closed a partnership with AB inBev, Bio Brew, which is the world's largest fermentation company. And that allows us instead of using-

Sean O'Sullivan: (15:49)
You may or may not know their beers are like a Budweiser and what's inBev is Heineken and all those beers over in Europe as well. So it's big, big fermentor, the world's largest fermentation company.

Arturo Elizondo: (16:03)
And so instead of using their, in addition to using the fermentors to use yeast and brew alcohol, why not use fermentation to also have the yeast convert that sugar into protein and produce it at the lowest possible costs on a global level and make them accessible to everyone. And so we work with very large food companies, like Groupo Bimbo, which is the world's largest bakery. They own SaraLee, Entenmann's, Oroweat. And part of what these companies are doing is trying to transition away from eggs. They reach people all over the world, especially in developing countries where they need very, very affordable products. And that's really where then scale comes in to then penetrate these markets.

Sean O'Sullivan: (16:50)
And I think scale is really a challenge for every company in this space, because initially the product start out being much more expensive than the ones that are made by animals. And then it just goes like from $8,000 a pound for a hamburger to like 800 to 80 to eight, but it's happening at that level, that speed as well, over two or three years, you get that 10 X cheaper.

Sean O'Sullivan: (17:20)
Jasmine talk about what types of proteins that you're looking to bring to market and what scale you're looking to achieve.

Jasmin Hume : (17:26)
Sure. Yeah. So on the panel, I think you have companies at different parts of the value chain also, which is really interesting. We are very early up in the value chain. So Shiru has a differentiated technology platform where we do protein discovery, essentially. And what that means is we can leverage our database, which currently contains 16.5 million natural protein sequences, interrogate it, using tools like machine learning and bioinformatics, and say, we're looking for proteins that have a gelation capability or emulsification or foaming, these textural properties that really define how we as consumers experience food, but also thinking about allergenicity, toxicity, amino acid profile, and basically predict the proteins that are going to perform those jobs in the best ways.

Sean O'Sullivan: (18:18)
And those functional proteins, those functional capabilities really matter when you take, for example, you take a soy milk or something and you try to put it in with eggs, or you try to use it to cook something. It actually, that's why the cakes don't turn out when you're using stuff that doesn't have those functional properties. And you're trying to substitute milk for those things, because they don't have the whey proteins or the casein proteins that are necessary for all of those different functional properties. So you're going specifically after those functional properties to either replace existing or to add product new capabilities.

Jasmin Hume : (19:00)
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yep. And I would add to that, the other element here as Arturo commented on, scalability. And not all proteins are equally as able to be expressed or produced in high quantities and efficient manners. So we also prioritize for ingredients that actually have the best potential to be scaled at the lowest cost point essentially.

Sean O'Sullivan: (19:24)
Right. Right. And Ben, your area, actually, the other thing I just realized is that you're selling direct to ingredients companies using your products directly for all of their products. Ben, you're going direct to consumer and in the middle Jasmine you're going to the, more towards the ingredient side, or are you going to have any consumer paid packaged goods?

Jasmin Hume : (19:54)
No consumer paid packaged goods. We will provide to food CPG companies as well as ingredients companies.

Sean O'Sullivan: (20:00)
Right. Right. So, inside of the industry, there's a number of companies that go direct to consumer. And Ben, you're one of them. Tell us about the challenges involved there.

Ben Berman: (20:09)
Yes. We deal at the opposite end of what Jasmine is thinking about. And so what I'm thinking about every day is, if every time someone entered a grocery store, I went to check out of their groceries online, I could have them listen to 30 minutes with Jasmine and Arturo and Sean, that would be really excellent. Because my job would be a lot easier. We don't have that ability. So a lot of my job these days is thinking about how we can get folks to understand what animal free dairy really means, how they can understand that oxymoron of a product that they're hopefully going to put into their bodies. And I need consumers to understand that this is urgent and that this is delicious.

Ben Berman: (20:46)
And that's what think about every day. Is we want to rethink those products and understand how those products can be branded. We think a lot about the fulfillment work behind those products, I'm trying to get to scale so that it's not just folks who were at the SALT conference who have access to these products. We want these to be everyday things, that are in every person's refrigerator, that are in every children's lunchbox, because we believe that's important for our planet and for our children.

Sean O'Sullivan: (21:12)
I think one of the things that confuses people a lot is, oh, is this like a GMO, right? Is this something that we're going to try as an experiment? But in fact, all of these products are already, a lot of them at least, I know we're doing some things which are more advanced, but grasp products generally regarded as safe products by an FDA clarification. So once you get it out there, it's exactly the same as a cow makes, it is exactly and it's not a special thing. It's what humans have been consuming for hundreds of thousands of years. So it's just a different means of production without requiring the animal to produce it. And it's a natural means of production. It's using nature, the incredible forces of nature, cellular agriculture as the machines that are actually producing these outputs.

Arturo Elizondo: (22:09)
Yeah. So one question that I always get is like, why? why are you even using this kind of very deep technology to make milk proteins, plant proteins and egg proteins and animal proteins more broadly, instead of eating more fruits and vegetables? Or aren't the veggie burgers of today good enough? and ultimately, the way that I talk about it is, the plant-based companies of today, I think have done such a great job educating the market, getting people excited about these kinds of products and sharing that it is possible to get a really tasty, sustainable product. And that you don't have to compromise any more as a consumer, but ultimately, cost and taste still dictate them with the vast majority of consumer purchasing, not just in the US, but globally.

Arturo Elizondo: (23:08)
And so ultimately, how do we get people who don't care about climate change, who don't care about animal rights, who don't care about a bottle or don't don't make purchasing decisions based off of that to transition? And ultimately for us, the big question is how do we deliver products that deliver on that promise of taste and price? And for us, this technology really is critical to enabling that transition, like to get a cake to rise and give you the same mouthfeel as a consumer. The angel food cake that you get every Christmas with your family, how do we recreate those experiences in a way that doesn't require animal products and that ultimately can enable a more delicious and affordable future for people? And really this technology, at least the way that I see it from the research that we've done in the space is, it's really the only way to make this transition possible.

Sean O'Sullivan: (24:07)
What do you guys think? And I'll start with you, Jasmine. My belief is that there will always be some luxury market that want to buy animal based protein products, the steak directly from a slaughtered cow but, at some point it's going to vastly be these new food technologies, not just for the global warming reasons, but just for economic reasons, it's just going to be so incredibly compelling. When do you think we're going to actually change, let's say 90% of the protein that people eat instead of coming from animals is coming from these new methods?

Jasmin Hume : (24:57)
Yeah. I think that there are predictions out there that say as early as 2035, that those balances will tip in favor of proteins that are produced more sustainably and without animals. Of course, if you are looking to have a steak and to go out to celebrate something, that's an experience, right? If you're reaching for a bag of Doritos, that's probably not because you really particularly want to consume dairy protein. It's just eat some Doritos. But if you think about the quantities that global food manufacturers use these functional ingredients, because they perform a job, that is so easy for us to replace, that is low hanging fruit and the scale and the volume of that opportunity is tremendous-

Sean O'Sullivan: (25:44)
Trillions of dollars every year. And that re-invention of the entire food processing industry. Then I'll throw this to you. You're saying NoMoo, for you saying NoMoo. What about all the farmers? What about all the fact that these industries are going to be completely, I look back, I live in Princeton, New Jersey, and there's a canal that runs along the town and that canal only lasted like 20 or 30 years before the trains overtook it. And then the trains were overtaken by the interstate highways. And there's so much money that's been poured into these massive animal agriculture industrial, these miles big plans. What do you think about what happens with the jobs and what happens with the ethical issues there? Do you have any thoughts on that?

Ben Berman: (26:35)
I do. Is something I've been thinking about a lot. And one thing that I had the opportunity to do over the last few months was talk to consumers who were showing purchasing intent for our product. And one thing that I very much learned from that is that the enemy for us is actually not farmers. It is big dairy in general, and it is the things that have happened to our food system in order to feed the number of people with the demand that we have. And so we're oversimplifying here, but we think about this. We say, if you are going down the road to your local farmer to get your milk, we actually love that. And we would like you to continue doing that because we think that's awesome. Where we want to play is big dairy, that's the enemy here. Is the unsustainable ways that we have grown our food systems in order to feed everyone.

Sean O'Sullivan: (27:20)
And all the repercussions of the biotic resistance and everything else is endangering our lives. Well, I think we may have time for one question. If anyone has anything you want to shout out, I can, yes. Go ahead. Front row.

Speaker 4: (27:37)
[inaudible 00:27:37] as useful [foreign language 00:27:40] economic opportunities that's [inaudible 00:27:45] space. I think that maybe [inaudible 00:27:50].

Sean O'Sullivan: (27:51)
Business model in terms of what your cost is and what you're looking. Yeah. In terms of what, next three to five years, wow. That's a lot. We'll go as quickly as we can. So the timeframes for each of these different industries, whether it's plant based foods like Beyond Meat or these hero proteins, which I call protein farming, like these functional ingredients, we were talking about with eggs and milk and whatnot, those are different timeframes. It's like the explosive investment and growth, but you'll see more like the Beyond Meat, Impossible Burger sort of stuff in the market quicker, but they will eventually be supplanted and replaced with the next generations of these hybrid products. And then the cellular agriculture will come next in waves. But there's different timeframes on each.

Sean O'Sullivan: (28:51)
And these companies, if you're interested in the very earliest stages, then you'd go to a program like in IndieBio, which is what we run. And there's a lot of great companies that are coming through that to try to get into the early, early stages. Or you could get in at series A, series B, series C right here on stage. Just find these investors. There's a lot of people talking about this market. I'm not sure if that really answered your question, but go ahead.

Arturo Elizondo: (29:22)
Yeah. For us specifically, eggs hover around two to three bucks a pound, in terms of the liquid eggs. With our technology, without any improvement in our technology today and dropped into large-scale for ventures, our cost is between one to two bucks a pound. So we now have proven that at scale, the technology works. And ultimately now the series that we're raising is to really drive adoption across the portfolio for our customers.

Sean O'Sullivan: (29:58)
You wan to...

Jasmin Hume : (29:58)
Yeah, sure. I'll comment on the business model side of things. For our company, our north star, our business is going to be in commercializing and selling ingredients to food CPG companies, large and small all over the world. That's obviously a long timeframe. And to get there, you need to raise a lot of capital to be able to reach those markets. Given the technology platform that we have at our core, we're also going to take advantage of opportunities to license technologies or ingredients to ingredients companies as we reached that, that north star of selling our own ingredients.

Sean O'Sullivan: (30:29)
I think we've run out of time. Ben, do you want to...

Ben Berman: (30:32)
I can go super short.

Sean O'Sullivan: (30:33)
Yeah, go super short.

Ben Berman: (30:34)
I believe you'll be able to buy our first product, which is animal free milk by Q2 of next year. And I believe we'll get to pretty close to price parity with milk alternatives that you're familiar with.

Sean O'Sullivan: (30:44)
Yeah. Well, if anyone has any direct questions, I think you guys will hang around or maybe go out, I guess. I don't know if you have to go outside or if there's something directly after, but we'll go outside and be available for your questions. Thanks so much for your time today.

Alternative Income in a Zero Interest Rate World | #SALTNY

Alternative Income in a Zero Interest Rate World with Clayton Degiacinto, Managing Partner & Chief Investment Officer, Axonic Capital. TJ Durkin, Co-Head, Structured Credit & Head of Residential & Consumer Debt, Angelo Gordon. Aaron Peck, Partner, Portfolio Manager & Co-Head of Opportunistic Private Credit, Monroe Capital.

Moderated by Daniel Barile, Partner & Senior Portfolio Manager, SkyBridge.

PRESENTED BY

 

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SPEAKERS

Headshot - DeGiacinto, Clayton - Cropped.jpeg

Clayton Degiacinto

Founder & Managing Partner

Axonic Capital

Headshot - Durkin, TJ - Cropped.jpeg

T.J. Durkin

Co-Head, Structured Credit & Head of Residential and Consumer Debt

Angelo Gordon

 
Headshot - Peck, Aaron - Cropped.jpeg

Aaron Peck

Partner, Portfolio Manager & Co-Head of Opportunistic Private Credit

Monroe Capital

MODERATOR

Headshot - Barile, Daniel - Cropped.jpeg

Daniel Barile

Partner & Senior Portfolio Manager

SkyBridge

TIMESTAMPS

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Daniel Barile: (00:07)
Hi everybody. Thanks so much for joining us and on behalf of SkyBridge, thanks so much for being here at this very special SALT in New York. I have a great panel today. We're talking about... The title is Alternative Income in a Zero Interest Rate World, but it's going to be a little bit broader than that. We're going to talk about some interesting segments of the credit market generally and yields, but also just opportunity sets. I would like to introduce my fellow panelists Clay from Axonic, TJ from Angelo Gordon and Aaron from Monroe Capital. I'm going to pass it on to them, to just give a bit of background on their firms and themselves and what they invest in. And then from there, we'll talk a bit about markets. Clay.

Clayton Degiacinto: (01:02)
Great, Clay DeGiacinto, Axonic Capital. We've been around since 2009 and manage about $4.5 billion solely in structured credit. We do this through a couple of LP products. Some funds of one and single asset funds and also two registered products, a mutual fund, and an interval fund.

T. J. Durkin: (01:24)
T. J. Durkin, Angelo Gordon's a $45 billion global alternative asset manager, been around since 1988. I've been with the firm 13 years. We focus exclusively on credit and real estate. And I oversee our structured credit business, which is about a six and a half billion [inaudible 00:01:41].

Aaron Peck: (01:43)
Great. Hi, my name is Aaron Peck. I'm a partner at Monroe Capital. Monroe manages just a shade under $11 billion. We're headquartered in Chicago, we're best known as a lower middle market lender. So we're a direct lender, lending money to small companies typically generating between three and $30 million of EBITDA. We offer products everywhere from large institutional products down to funds that can be invested by accredited investors.

Daniel Barile: (02:07)
Great. All right, thanks. Thank you guys. So to kick it off... So obviously we're in an incredibly low yield environment you're basically at all time low yields for on the run. You get a high yield credit and you're close to all time tight spreads, not at all time tight spreads. And there's just very little places for folks to, to generate yield without some trade, right?

Daniel Barile: (02:38)
Complexity or less liquidity. But I think there are exceptions to that kind of generic statement that we're in a low rate world. There are definitely pockets of the market that are really, really interesting, offer higher yields without utilizing leverage to get there, but they require specialization. And when I think about your respective firms, you do a really, really good job at that. And you're involved in segments of the market where there are opportunities, right? So maybe we'll start with you, Aaron. Just talk about... Develop a bit. So when you say middle market direct lending, what that means for the audience here, but then talk a bit about what the unlevered yield and total return profile of a typical portfolio you could put together today, what that looks like.

Aaron Peck: (03:29)
Sure. So direct lending is just what it sounds like. It's a pretty simple business. At the end of the day, we loan money to small companies. We're typically senior secured first lien lenders. So we're doing what banks used to do. It used to be that you go down, you run a small business in your town, you meet with the local banker, then you play around a golf. You tell them you need to build a factory or you want to buy your competitor and they'll lend you some money against your cashflow. That market completely went away after the great financial crisis and the Dodd-Frank rules. All the direct lenders sort of grew up in that market and expanded their offerings and banks really aren't in that market. Banks are mostly asset-based lenders today. And so for us, we're providing cashflow lending. We're lending against business' enterprise value.

Aaron Peck: (04:11)
If a business is worth $100 million dollars, we're usually going to lend about $50 million. So we're typically attaching at around a 50% loan to value. It's senior secured. So unlike most high yield bonds, which tend to be subordinated and unsecured, we're top of the capital structure secured by all the assets of the business. And we're typically four, four and a half times leverage and most important is in the lower middle market where we spend most of our time, that market still has a lot of protections. It has a lot of covenants. And so what that means is when a borrower has its risk position change, they'll trip a covenant and we have a repricing opportunity and the opportunity to change what we get paid for the risk, which is very different from the high yield bond market. It's really the reason I got into direct lending in the first place is I grew up in the high-yield bond market.

Aaron Peck: (04:58)
What I hated about it is you buy a 5% bond. That's the most you're going to make on that bond if the risk of that bond changes and suddenly the company's a lot more risky, you may not get your money back, but you're never going to be able to increase your rate. Your 5% coupon is your coupon. In the direct money business, when there's a change in the risk in the underlying credit, there's a covenant violation, particularly in the lower part of the market where we trade and you'll have the opportunity to adjust your risk. So that's something we really like.

Aaron Peck: (05:25)
And so to the question, Dan, about yields, our loans typically are anywhere from LIBOR 575, 600. So we usually have about a 1% LIBOR floor. So we're generally earning six or 7% on the low end, up to low double digits on the high end. And our portfolios typically on an unlevered basis are going to generate kind of a mid to high single digit return. Everything we do is a current pay vehicle. We usually put some leverage because we're such senior secured. It's pretty low risk assets, pretty secure.

Aaron Peck: (05:57)
So our typical fund, we have an accredited investor fund, for example, that is paying around an 8% dividend yield current and uses about one-to-one leverage.

Daniel Barile: (06:06)
That's great. Thank you, Aaron. Clay? You want to talk a bit about what you can construct given your mandate at Axonic from a yield and total return perspective and what are some of the different exposures there?

Clayton Degiacinto: (06:24)
Yeah, sure. If it were a zero rate world, which you point out, I would want to invest in a market that has a systematic tailwind, something like a shortage of housing in this country that we've had for the past 30 years. I'd want the market to be over the counter, not exchange traded, and ability to execute in a bilateral fashion. I'd want it to be liquid. I'd want it to be dislocated. I'd want there to be numerous players that all have different regulatory constraints via banks or insurance companies, or even the GSEs that sort of dominate the mortgage market in this country. I would want the players to have different and asymmetry of information, asymmetry of systems and asymmetry of the way that they differentiate themselves from a fundamental perspective. I'd want the market to organically delever, meaning every month that cash flows out and turns risk into cash.

Clayton Degiacinto: (07:29)
I'd love for the markets traded at discount. And that's what I'd want to invest in. That effectively is structured credit. And that's what we do. And we do it through RMBS, CMBS, commercial real estate loans, asset backed securities, et cetera. Did I mention dislocated? At times the market has dislocated. We look for those pockets. People say when will the market be dislocated? I say it's always dislocated. You just have to find the sector that's dislocated. And so that's what we invest in, and bonds, loans, et cetera, through our vehicles. And I think our sort of expectation is a cashflow in the mid to high single digits and the total return sort of centered around 10, given the opportunity today.

Daniel Barile: (08:18)
Great.Great. TJ?

T. J. Durkin: (08:20)
Yeah, I'd say Clay and I probably swim in the same pool but maybe different lanes. And so I think his background for what we look at is applicable to us. And I think just getting into probably what we're looking at today is I'll point out three things. And there's two themes that are consistent with the three. One is we believe there are large tangible, addressable markets, typically trillion plus. And two, we think that the credit quality is still tight, especially when you compare it to some kind of more public corporate lending.

T. J. Durkin: (08:51)
So first within residential mortgage finance, everything that doesn't qualify for Fannie or Freddie, we think it's probably commonly referred to as non QM. We think that's very interesting. We're active in purchasing the raw receivables and effectuating securitization. Secondly, student loans in particular private student loans.

T. J. Durkin: (09:12)
And so when you think about that, that notional, that's a trillion and a half, and the headline numbers that you'll see in the Wall Street Journal, et cetera, about the delinquencies and the forbearances, that's generally what is sitting on the government's balance sheet. And when you dive into what the private market is, probably the most popular companies are so fire selling that we think there's really good risk adjusted returns there, and the performance is much, much better. And then I would say, third is credit card lending from the non-bank institutions. So if you think about B of A or Chase or Wells, that's a super private customer, easy access for those people that qualify. There's a whole ecosystem of people in that demographic that wants a flexible way to pay for gas, pay for groceries. And there's a lot of specialty finance companies out there that are serving them. And so we're very active in providing those companies capital, whether it be in debt or buying the receivables, et cetera.

T. J. Durkin: (10:09)
And probably on a return perspective, probably similar to cashflow is being generated in the mid high single digits. And then there's kind of upside on the exit, whether it's a securitization or sale on that will probably get us into the low double digits.

Daniel Barile: (10:24)
Great. Okay. So we'll start with Aaron, but same kind of question to the panel, the other panelists as well. So for the audience here, help reconcile... So you can buy HYG right now and get a high yield, popular high yield ETF, and get a 4% yield. And I think you don't have to be a specialist, you just look at the financial press. And I think the press does a good job of kind of conveying just about any corporate... You put your hand up and say, "Hey I need to raise money," and you can raise money pretty easily in the environment that we're in. So very wide open kind of capital markets. And so reconcile that to why would a good company that's been around for a long time be willing to, or be forced to, I guess, as the market kind of forces them to pay that higher yield.

Daniel Barile: (11:16)
So along with Merome and a handful of other really good middle market direct lenders that have been doing an excellent job generating exceptional risk adjusted returns in the current environment. But it doesn't always tie, I think, unless you're deep in the credit markets, you don't necessarily appreciate why that exists. Why does that inefficiency exist where you can pick up three or four points in yield?

Daniel Barile: (11:38)
So maybe talk through that for the group and also what the trade is there. So in some cases it's going to be liquidity. So you have to have a different kind of duration of capital.

Aaron Peck: (11:48)
Yeah. That's a good question. And I think what's important to understand is that it depends on where you are in the market. So it's specifically to middle market finance, which is the business that we're active in. When you get into the high side of middle market finance, the larger middle market companies, which are typically going to be 75 million of EBITDA and up. There are more alternatives for companies of that size. They can look to selective high yield issuance and in some cases, even [inaudible 00:12:15]. When you get down into the space where Monroe traffics, the three to 30 million of EBITDA kind of borrower, there is no bond market for those borrowers. There is no alternative source of capital other than maybe going to the bank for a first lien sort of asset-based finance and maybe a hedge fund or a mezzanine lender for that mez piece.

Aaron Peck: (12:35)
What we provide them as a one-stop shop. Most of what we're doing today is working with a middle market, private equity firm who's buying the company. And it's really the only way that they can create their levered investment in a borrower is through a firm like ours. And so what does an investor taking on when they take on an investment in a Monroe fund versus a high yield index or even an investment grade index?

Aaron Peck: (12:59)
Well, obviously we're paying a higher yield and there is nothing that's free. So we must be taking on some risk that you aren't taking on if you are in a high grade bond. And so I think what you're taking on is a couple things. One is there's clearly less liquidity in what we do than there is in the both high grade market and even the high yield market.

Aaron Peck: (13:19)
Right? So when we originate a loan, it's a hundred and $150 million loan, it's going into all the Monroe funds. I can't sell that loan easily for the price that I originated that. When things are good, I can certainly syndicate a piece of it at the time, but if I close that loan and we get a year out and I want to sell that loan, there's probably no one who's going to show up and bid me par. Maybe there is, but it's not going to be so easy. It's going to be negotiated. There's no market. And so there's definitely a liquidity premium in what we do.

Aaron Peck: (13:47)
And so...

Daniel Barile: (13:48)
They can still see us.

Aaron Peck: (13:49)
I don't think they like the answer. There's a liquidity premium there, for sure. And then at the end of the day, there's also a bit of a timing issue, right? So a lot of times we're called upon to do a loan where we need to move quickly because there's a transaction that needs to close. And the bond market may take longer to underwrite. There's a registration process. Everything's privately negotiated. And so a lot of our borrowers are willing to pay a little bit more for certainty of execution, timing of execution, particularly in our opportunistic credit business, which is a subset of what we do. More asset focused lending. It overlaps a little bit more with what these guys do. We do some specialty finance lending. Those tend to be things that need to move quickly, close quickly. And the price that we're charging is not usually the determinant of why we're selective. It's more about the flexibility and the capital we provide.

Aaron Peck: (14:33)
And the last piece I'll just mention is it's not untrue that we're going to push out on the leverage side a lot more than a bank would do. So our typical loan is four and a half times EBITDA. You're not going to see a lot of banks hold on their balance sheet for four and a half times EBITDA kind of leverage. That's a little bit more leveraged. So it comes down to a really fundamental, good credit underwriting. And our track record is that we go out and try to make sure we don't lose a lot of money. The lending business is easy. The way you make money is you don't lose money. It sounds dumb, but that's the bottom line. You don't get paid enough to take a lot of risks. So you've got to really underwrite well, and I think that's really what we're trying to do every day.

Daniel Barile: (15:06)
No, that great Aaron. Yeah, I think that the key point is that it's not that you appear in the current market to be getting paid well for those risks. Right? So if you're generating double or close to double the yield of vanilla, unsecured, high yield and you're secured, I think that trade-off from a liquidity perspective makes sense all day long, assuming it matches the duration of your capital. But it seems like one segment of the market where there's still a lot of income and a lot of value in a tough environment. And so maybe TJ talk a bit about the difference. Obviously structured credit is... We can cover a lot of kind of sub sections of the market.

Daniel Barile: (15:58)
But maybe pick one or two to kind of highlight. Drive home this point that there's a lot of inefficiencies in these markets. And you could be a lazy, fixed income investor. You could be mandate constrained as well. So it's not just lazy investors are only investing in on the run IGE and high yield. They may know that there's not a lot of value there, but they may be mandate constrained.

Daniel Barile: (16:23)
But imagine an investor who's not mandate constrained who still overweighed those kind of very vanilla segments in the market right now what's the simple pitch for a couple of segments of your book, just from a relative value perspective.

T. J. Durkin: (16:39)
Yeah. I think just, just even from 10,000 feet, if you think about what corporations and CFOs are doing. They're doing what they're supposed to do right now. Credit's easy. Rates are low. They're extending durations. And so I think if you fast forward to five, whatever amount of years and rates do eventually go up and there are some fundamental concerns, that's a lot of volatility in the price of the corporate security that's got a 10, 15 year maturity.

T. J. Durkin: (17:07)
When you think about a lot of the products, just big picture that we're investing in. If you think about residential real estate, it's a great inflation hedge, right? And so if you're worried about sort of the inevitable rising rates, who knows when it's going to happen, that's a good place effectively to be secure and be hiding. If you look at a lot of the other consumer asset classes that we're investing in, like I mentioned, credit cards as an example, generally shorter duration floating rate. And so I think what this space in particular can do right now, more so than other parts of the market, whether it be corporates or immunities, is offer you yields without a lot of duration risk. And I think that really should have a home in a lot of people's portfolio, given sort of the uncertainty of what's in the Fed's going to do, and sort of where we are just big picture mid 2021.

Daniel Barile: (18:00)
That's great. Clay, maybe a couple of segments of your book you want to highlight? I know that the Freddie SPL portion of the book is fascinating. I think might be worth taking five minutes to kind of unpack for the group here as a segment of the market that I'm sure a lot of folks won't be familiar with. Axonic has really has developed a relationship with Freddie and a real specialization here. So maybe worth highlighting from an opportunity perspective, something that's really unique.

Clayton Degiacinto: (18:29)
Sure. Thank you. And I agree with TJ, I think you said yield without duration, and effectively that's just cash flows. And everybody at my shop, when we look at certain assets or respective investments, we first look at the pool of assets, be it residential mortgage loans, or commercial mortgage loans, or aviation loans, et cetera, and really have a good feeling or a forecast of the pre-payment variability, the default variability, the recovery variability. And then we look at the structure and it's really that function of structure that allows us to insulate and mitigate a lot of risk. I think inflation's here. I don't think it's a debate.

Clayton Degiacinto: (19:17)
I remain surprised when the Fed tries to convince us that it's transitory, but hard assets are a great position to be in. And specifically our firm, we're not always at the top part of the capital structure. So we're at sort of the part of the capital structure I dib to be that fulcrum part where losses and prepayments matter, and inflation is only going to support these assets on a go forward basis. So if we can run a lower severity than we had originally sort of forecasted the bang for your buck or the additional yield enhancements is quite substantial, especially when it's a discount asset or a discount bond.

Clayton Degiacinto: (20:00)
Our relationship with Freddie is really interesting. We've had a relationship for almost 10 years now. I mentioned in the beginning that we love a market and we enjoy our market where there's regulatory constraint for other people. Banks have to think about their tier one capital. Insurance companies have to think about their NAIC rating. Oh, unless you're in Europe. And then you have to think about Solvency or Basel, and those don't always link up.

Clayton Degiacinto: (20:26)
So they're looking at different bonds through different lenses. The GFC also have the regulatory constraint and President Obama put them into a conservatorship. I believe it was Christmas Eve, 2010. And what that effectively meant is that they're supposed to protect taxpayer dollar at all costs. And so you saw the advent of their risk share programs on the residential side, which is generally a reference pool, and it's a synthetic asset, and you may have heard of [ Kazer Stacker 00:20:57] a liquid. It's a tradable market. Almost every dealer will make two way markets on it. The way that I think about it, it's much more about spread than it is about cashflow or yield.

Clayton Degiacinto: (21:10)
So it's certainly not a core component of our portfolio, but on the multifamily side, Freddie approached us in 2013 and 14, because they wanted a risk share partner from day one when the loan originally gets made. That's evolved through several iterations, but now we're maybe a third to 40% of their flows in the small balance lending program. This is for Freddie and $8 billion a year program. I mentioned small balance because Freddie has a, from my perspective, sort of a dual report to both Congress and the Treasury, and they're there to support. I mean, it's not purely financially driven. There's a bit of a social component.

Clayton Degiacinto: (21:58)
And the small balance program, in general, is workforce housing. It's Class B multi-family garden style, low-rise two to $10 million apartment buildings. And we're their risk share partner on that. So with that-

Daniel Barile: (22:13)
To be clear, this is where the country is short enough supply of this housing. You need more middle income housing.

Clayton Degiacinto: (22:19)
We had this view that it was a defensive sector going all the way back to 2015 to 2020. COVID tested that. We saw rental demand and rent prices decrease in the Class A. It actually went up in class B, which is sort of what we would expect. If you're in trouble, if you're a Class a renter, and that's the stainless steel refrigerator, granite countertops that it comes with a yoga mat and cost $2,200 a month. You can always downsize to something that's $1,100 a month. It doesn't come with a yoga mat, but it's housing and it's a two bed, one bathroom or three bed, two bath.

Clayton Degiacinto: (23:00)
And that's the asset that we like. Call it workforce housing. It works for us. If you were to invest in these, and I know there's a lot of managers of money out here, and there's probably room for a multifamily equity, that cap rate, I mean, I guess it depends on where you are, but in New York City probably starts with a three. If you're in a tier three or tertiary market, maybe you're lucky to get something that starts with a five. We're getting 9%. How are we doing that? Well, I'll tell you.

Clayton Degiacinto: (23:31)
The loan is, I don't know, call it a three to 4% to the consumer. And that's for approximately a 70 LTV mortgage. So there's 30% sponsor equity below you. In our partnership, we come in at a layered slice. So we're sort of with a zero to 10 on the loan. So when I think about it in terms of the capital structure and an apartment building, we're effectively that 30 to 37% part of the capital structure in the apartment building. If the loan is three to 4%, the reason why we get 9% is because our partner is Freddie Mac. Freddie has the lowest cost of capital in the world.

Clayton Degiacinto: (24:13)
They're guaranteeing the top 90% of this loan and that trades with a one handle. So when you look at a loan that's zero to 70 and 63% of that trades with a one handle that allows us to... We can make something like 9%. So let's say it's a cherished relationship. If you're in the structured credit world or the RMBS or CMBS world, you go down to Washington, DC, at least once a quarter. I've been doing that since I was on the south side at Goldman starting in 2002. And that's just the way it is. But it's a great partnership. The loan de-risks. It doesn't extend.

Clayton Degiacinto: (24:54)
You mentioned sort of high yield and IG. To me, that's terrifying because you're only subject to spread and the loan doesn't organically de-risk. So when it comes time to try to sell the loan, you're subject to somebody else telling you what price they want to pay for it and something that's prorata in the capital structure, it amortizes down every month. And I'd much rather take reinvestment risk than the longer duration non cash flow risk.

Aaron Peck: (25:23)
No, that great Clay. Really, really interesting stuff. And I think drives home, as everybody in this room knows, or as most know, SkyBridge is an alternative asset manager. And we believe deep down that markets are an efficiency and alternatives that are persistently inefficient and alternative strategies make sense and hedge funds add a lot of value. And I think that an example like that from Clay, I think if you're, if you're a professional hedge fund investor, what Clay just sketched out there with Freddie in that relationship and the ability to source that paper, the terminology you would use is that's a key part of their alpha proposition. Something very, very unique that they're able to do to deliver a unique return stream to investors in a world, or again, going back to the name of the panel, that it seems like there's not that much to do. There's a ton to do. But it's hard. It's hard work. That's why specialist managers like this exist. They have the resources and the ability to focus and extract value.

Aaron Peck: (26:34)
Why don't we go to you, Aaron? And then we'll come back to you TJ and talk a bit in your market. Again, it goes back to the same idea of you need to source those loans. And so for a direct lender, that's no easy feat. A lot of the audience probably doesn't appreciate that you're doing this from A to Z. And so talk a bit about what Monroe's team looks like from a loan origination perspective, what the process looks like. The two minute version.

Aaron Peck: (27:06)
Yeah, for sure. So if you talk to any direct lender, every one of them will talk about proprietary origination. Big buzzword. Most of them don't really know what it means because their proprietary origination is just calling one of the Wall Street banks and asking for a big allocation on a deal. That's not very proprietary because I can find the same deal. Maybe I don't have the relationship, and maybe I can't get 75 million of it. Maybe I can only get 20, but-

Daniel Barile: (27:27)
Here's a big loan and they're going to take a little piece of it versus doing it from scratch.

Aaron Peck: (27:32)
Exactly. So what do we do that's different? We have close to 20 full time loan originators. All they do is go out and look for loan opportunities for Monroe to agent and own. So we'll typically be the only lender or the agent lender where we'll structure the loan. And then we'll bring in a partner who maybe will get a small piece of it. And so that's a very expensive proposition for a firm like ours to hire 20 full-time people. And at the end of the day, as investors when you're looking at, what am I paying for when I'm investing in funds like ours, you ought to be paying for some sort of alpha, right? And so much of the direct lending business has become beta because it's what I first described, buying things off the street. That's that's beta business. I mean, maybe you can generate an alpha by being better than the next guy in underwriting, but at the end of the day, you better be providing something that's unique.

Aaron Peck: (28:18)
And so when you're into a Monroe product, for example, you're going to have a bunch of loans that you're not going to be able to get anywhere else because we've gone out and sourced them. We've invested in the people over our 17 year history to go out and find these opportunities and source them. And it's through relationships. It's through lawyers and bankers and accountants and boutique investment bankers and private equity firms. And it's not to say that we don't compete on rate and that there isn't competition. There certainly is, but relationship matters. And the reason relationship matters is because we don't just give them the money and then they never talk to us again. We've got covenants. And so they want to have a relationship so that if something happens, they know who they're talking to and they can try to work out something. And we don't just take the keys and run with their businesses.

Aaron Peck: (29:00)
And so relationship matters and you can source based on our relationship. And that's what Monroe does. That's what differentiates us from most people in the lower middle market, particularly, is the size and breadth of our origination.

Daniel Barile: (29:11)
TJ, maybe. And I guess, TJ, you can answer the question from a couple of perspectives. So you have the larger Angelo Gordon, which I think is maybe important to touch on very briefly, but then also your world structured credit as well. So a lot of value from kind of sourcing.

T. J. Durkin: (29:26)
Sure. I mean listen, we have a huge corporate business where we can JV on things within the special finance world. And we've done that over time from shorting Hertz into COVID, into looking at some of the mortgage originators coming out of COVID and their high yield bonds. But I mean, I think Clay walked you through how you can partner with the government. And then I think there's the other way of looking at it in that a lot of consumer finance is subsidized by the government. So if you think about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and if you think about most of the student loan origination going on today for undergrads is the direct program, which goes right onto Treasury's balance sheet. And so you can either work with them like Clay walked you through an example where you go to where they're not.

T. J. Durkin: (30:07)
And so I talked about non QM. And so that's where you have to have infrastructure, you talked about a team. We have 35 investment professionals to sort of build that mousetrap to go basically capture that excess return to where the government isn't making it easy and cheap. Same concepts with student loan. And so I think that's how we really think about things in the sense of, there's obviously a lot of money out there. And so we're trying to focus on areas that have just large tangible adjustable markets. And that there's enough to go around.

T. J. Durkin: (30:40)
We shouldn't be drastically seeing price changes quarter over quarter or even year over year. And so we can kind of really understand the product, understand the credit we're generally kind of in a similar place in the capital structure that Clay walked you through. And so getting a credit is crucial to your ultimate return. And that's really how we like to play things. And looking where either the government or the large banks are sort of not playing. And just based on the size of the economy, even just thinking about U.S., there's plenty of no [inaudible 00:31:12].

Daniel Barile: (31:13)
Very cool. So we only have a few minutes left, but the high level question, I think the answers may be different given the different market kind of focuses here. So with the COVID shock to markets last year, I think that Clay and TJ, you tell me. I think that there are less well-capitalized competitors in your space, right? So you've probably seen a little less competition than you were a couple of years ago and both of your firms emerge very strongly from the shock that was last year. Where Monroe, I don't think that's going to be the case. I think that direct lending held up very well throughout the COVID shock early last year. And so maybe just put a final point on that. Would you say that it's, from a competition perspective, even better than it was several years ago or about the same? What would you say, Clay?

Clayton Degiacinto: (32:14)
I mean, sure. COVID killed several of our competitors.

Aaron Peck: (32:18)
There you go. Well stated plainly, there you go.

Clayton Degiacinto: (32:22)
By the way, it also wasn't a function of asset selection. It was a function of liability structure. There was a massive run on liquidity and something that I saw play out faster and deeper and more severe than the financial crisis between 2007 and 2009. But it's when you don't over lever. And you think really carefully about asset selection.

Clayton Degiacinto: (32:49)
I love what Aaron said, because I think about it. It's true in our own business. Buying cheap bonds is really cool and fun, but not buying bad bonds is actually sort of the key to our business. And I think the key to success. We went into COVID with 14 repo counterparties, diversified the days of role, meaning different days of the month, the term and the amount. And now we have eight counterparties and it wasn't a function of them not wanting to work with us. We don't want to work with them.

Clayton Degiacinto: (33:29)
So we really saw who good partners were during COVID, and we're trying to do more with those key relationships on our side. But listen, I mean, this remains an inefficient market that we enjoy. And I sort of pinch myself every day being able to come into work and find good bonds or good positions that cashflow organically out. And having less competitors, I would say in our sort of specialized field, I mean even TJ talks about a total adjustable market. Yeah, you're right. It's giant. And it's also taken by global insurance companies and global banks that have regulatory constraints on their capital. So what's left over, tends to always be the cheapest. Maybe it's because it's part of the fulcrum and the securitization, but that's what we like. We want to be paid and we think that we earn our keep, earn our money by being right about those credits.

T. J. Durkin: (34:29)
Yeah, I think this is also like the second calling of our competitor. There was kind of a small wash out, I would say after like Q four, 15 Q1, 16 high yield, mini blow up. And then this was kind of the round two. And so I think there's less of us that I think are actually dedicated to the space to sort of pursue those opportunities in earnest on a full-time basis, not being tourists.

Clayton Degiacinto: (34:54)
Yep.

Daniel Barile: (34:55)
Aaron, last word?

Aaron Peck: (34:56)
Well Clay said it right. There's really three things that carries out funds. It's credit selection or investment selection problems. It's sources of leverage funding and its sources of equity funding. And a lot of hedge funds saw all three problems during COVID. They pick the wrong assets that blew out and spreads, their leverage went away, the repo counterparties polled, and in some cases, their equity investors, also their hedge fund investors pulled and redeemed. And so that's the perfect storm. It's terrible.

Aaron Peck: (35:23)
And so at the end of the day, I think it's important to think about that when you're investing in funds. What are the sources of risk to you that are beyond just the manager? The manager is [inaudible 00:35:31]. It's how do they manage their business? And so just for us, we're focused a lot on that. So most of our capital's long-term and locked up and most of our credit is long-term and locked up. So then we isolated really at the end of the day to credit selection. And that's something that we do great.

Daniel Barile: (35:43)
All right. Thank you. Thank you, gentlemen. Aaron, TJ, Clay, always a pleasure. Thanks so much. Thanks everybody for joining us.

Aaron Peck: (35:49)
Thank you.

Clayton Degiacinto: (35:49)
Thanks.

How Crypto Is Eating Wall Street | #SALTNY

How Crypto Is Eating Wall Street with Nathan Mccauley, Co-Founder & Chief Executive Officer, Anchorage Digital. Dan Morehead, Chief Executive Officer, Pantera Capital. Zac Prince, Chief Executive Officer, BlockFi. Katherine Molnar, Chief Investment Officer, Fairfax County Police Officers Retirement System. Michael Shaulov, Chief Executive Officer & Co-Founder, Fireblocks.

Moderated by Michael Casey, Chief Content Officer, Coinbase.

Powered by RedCircle

 

SPEAKERS

Headshot - McCauley, Nathan - Cropped.jpeg

Nathan Mccauley

Co-Founder & Chief Executive Officer

Anchorage Digital

Headshot - Morehead, Dan - Cropped.jpeg

Dan Morehead

Chief Executive Officer

Pantera Capital

Headshot - Prince, Zac - Cropped.jpeg

Zac Prince

Chief Executive Officer

BlockFi

Headshot - Molnar, Katherine - Cropped.jpeg

Katherine Molnar

Chief Investment Officer

Fairfax County Police Officers Retirement System

 
Michael-Shaulov_CEO_Fireblocks_viaFireblocks-748x1024.jpeg

Michael Shaulov

Chief Executive Officer & Co-Founder

Fireblocks

MODERATOR

Headshot - Casey, Michael - Cropped.jpeg

Michael Casey

Chief Content Officer

CoinDesk

TIMESTAMPS

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Michael Casey: (00:00)
So you can tell from the way that they walked in that they're really not going to follow my lead here at all. I got a panel that's going to be autonomous and independent, which is great. So I'm Michael Casey. I am the chief content officer at CoinDesk, which is the leading media platform for the cryptocurrency digital assets and blockchain space. And I'm thrilled to have a tremendous panel with us today to talk through what truly is I think, I've been covering this space for eight years as a journalist. And I feel like we're at this moment right now where things are getting really quite interesting. Just the SALT Conference itself speaks to that in terms of the crypto presence here.

Michael Casey: (00:48)
But before you want to hear from me, you want to hear from these guys so quick introductions, we have Nathan McCauley who is the CEO of Anchorage, Dan Morehead, the CEO and founder of Pantera Capital, Zac Prince from BlockFi, Katherine Molnar who's the COO of Fairfax County Police Officers Retirement Fund and Michael Shaulov from Fireblocks. So look, Dan, I thought I'd throw it to you first, if you don't mind, just to give people a sense of the journey. You, something of a visionary, started investing you really as a VC back in 2013 in this space. You've seen a lot change over the time. What are the big lessons that you take away from this for anybody here who's looking to get their feet wet?

Dan Morehead: (01:31)
Yeah, I think we're still in the early innings of the multi-decade transformation that's going to have a huge impact on literally billions of people. And this conference is a great example of how much the interest has grown in this space. The community used to be a really tiny little thing. And I was thinking back when you first asked about that, when I first was pitching endowments and other institutional investors on Bitcoin, the space had one asset manager with one fund with one asset. That doesn't really sell very well. People certainly didn't want to take that very focused risk.

Dan Morehead: (02:06)
And I remember going into meetings with big endowments. You'd say, "Hey, I'm willing to come out to your college and talk about what Bitcoin is," in 2013. And you get the CIO and 20 people in a room and you have this great conversation for an hour. And you kind of get to the end of it and nothing happens. And it's obvious you're not going to get any interest or any subscription from the endowment. So then you say goodbye and they're walking out to the elevator and everybody's whispering, what's the minimum? Because they all want to invest personally. And now it's flipped. Institutional investors are calling us and it's much more engaged. So I love seeing that this journey we're on, which I think still has a couple more decades to go, is really taking off.

Michael Casey: (02:49)
So on that note, Katherine, you are one of those institutions that, earlier than most, I would say from certainly from the pension fund world, decided that this was something that you were going to get into. Yeah. First of all, how did you convince your trustees and others to dive into this crazy space?

Katherine Molnar: (03:09)
Sure. Thank you. And it's a pleasure to be here today. So a colleague and I, we managed two different systems, but we work closely together. We started looking closely at the Bitcoin, but really more blockchain technology space in the spring of 2018. And we identified a manager that we were really interested in investing with. And to be very clear, it's venture capital. So we were not trying to invest in Bitcoin. We were not even trying to more broadly invest in cryptocurrency only, rather the infrastructure that underlies all of the cryptocurrencies and all the protocols, so really blockchain technology itself. So we've made four investments now. Going back to how the approval process, we went on site to see the manager in the summer of 2018, so a little more than three years ago. And of course staff went on site as we always would do.

Katherine Molnar: (03:58)
But in addition to that, we took a number of trustees from the different systems with us because we wanted them to really hear the message directly from the manager. So a group of probably eight to 10 people that represented Fairfax County between staff and trustees went and stayed there for about four hours. And so the following month in September of 2018, I presented it to my board and they approved it. But I would tell you that it wasn't without a lot of discussion. And even once it was approved, there were definitely employee groups within the county that were pretty upset about it actually. And there were concerns such as is this a way to launder money? And of course, representing a police officer's retirement system, that's something that's pretty important to them. And just in general there was some pushback, but I think ultimately we tried to impress upon them that we thought that this was a really potentially high growth area.

Katherine Molnar: (04:56)
It's part of a broader innovation allocation. We consider it venture capital, even though there is a certain portion that's actually liquid. Up to 20% to 30% can be liquid cryptocurrency, but nevertheless, we consider it to be venture capital. Its size is venture capital. So starting out initially and for my system is about a 50 basis point allocation. We re-upped once to one percent, so doubling it. And then we've since made two additional investments. So we're now at four investments so far. Are all of them so far in venture capital I would tell you. That two percent target is now worth over seven percent in our portfolio. It's done that well. And we are potentially or planning to recommend a new manager next month that will be truly classic liquid cryptocurrency, to put like a proper long, short hedge fund evergreen structure.

Michael Casey: (05:46)
So those doubters now are a little bit more comfortable with the steps you took then.

Katherine Molnar: (05:52)
Were they more comfortable now?

Michael Casey: (05:53)
Yeah. The trustees, the people who had their doubts, they're probably happy to see those sorts of returns I imagine.

Katherine Molnar: (05:58)
Yeah. So I think that definitely the second and third and fourth time around were certainly a lot easier than the initial approval naturally. But the performance has been very good. And then I just think in general, the service providers in this realm of asset management are better known. There are some very well known institutions that are now willing to custody digital assets. That wasn't the case three years ago when we made our initial investments. So even just some of the community around digital assets, I would tell you, has become more institutional, certainly better known to investors. And so I think that's also gone a long way.

Michael Casey: (06:34)
Yeah. I mean, we were talking in the green room before about say the emergence of [inaudible 00:06:37] in the custody space and Fidelity. These are sort of common names and how that has helped people to, I suppose, just feel more comfortable with it. But Fireblocks might have a different take on this and on what really the quality of custody. So first of all, if you don't mind, Michael, explain your service. You're a custody provider, but you've got an interesting structure there where you service both institutions and you've got two custody models. Yeah.

Michael Shaulov: (07:02)
Yeah. So I think that from where we stand and what we do, we basically provide a technology infrastructure that is custodial for the different players in this space, which is relying on technology that's called multipart competition that I'll explain in a second.

Michael Shaulov: (07:17)
But the idea is that the way that we provide our technology service, if it's basically directed to funds or for companies that consuming it directly, it's almost, it's basically self-custody, right? So they basically able to manage the wallets. But although people have this kind of notion when you tell people self-custody, they think that someone has a [inaudible 00:07:44] key in their back pocket. And they're basically running with million dollars of crypto on a [inaudible 00:07:52] key. It's actually the complete opposite. Basically there are very sophisticated systems that are able to protect the wallet and they are able to protect the keys that secure the wallets in a way that creates all those layers around security, governance, approval processes, compliance. And first of all, people can basically access it directly. So you have hedge funds that can basically consume it. And then in a sense, it's basically like self-custody. But it is secure.

Michael Shaulov: (08:23)
On the other side, we do power some of the biggest custodians. So the earlier this year, it was made public that Bank of New York Mellon invested in our company. And we are working with Bank of New York Mellon to basically establish their custody technology and offering. And we're working with quite a few of the other Tier 1 banks.

Michael Shaulov: (08:43)
So when this technology is basically consumed by a licensed institution, then you're basically getting the sort of the traditional custodial infrastructure through which people can access. But again, highly secure with all the right protocols and then also the operational procedures and the balance sheets that I think a lot of the people, the balance sheet and the brand that a lot of the people on in the traditional financial side on Wall Street really looking for to partner. And I think that the most interesting and most fascinating thing about maybe people like [inaudible 00:09:20] and the Bank of New York Mellon and Fidelity is that they already have agreements in place with pretty much most of the hedge funds or asset managers on Wall Street and they can basically service them under the same agreements.

Michael Casey: (09:37)
One of the aspects of that question around custody and the two models you're talking about, I think inevitably leads us to questions around regulation. There's this sort of inherently different regulatory structure when there is a custodian of the client's assets. So to Nathan, I thought of just throw to you just to give us some picture. Anchorage has taken a very distinct path as to how you are going to get yourself regulated. You've opted to be a bank. Maybe talk a little bit about that and what the logic behind that is and how you see the regulatory framework kind of evolving right now.

Nathan McCauley: (10:14)
Sure. I think on our side, our animating force at Anchorage continues to be service of our clients. And so when clients look at looking to invest in crypto assets, looking invest in blockchain-based technologies, certainly they need very secure custody. They need flexible custody so they can do whatever they want with their assets. But they also need that to be inside a regulated entity and a regulated environment. And so we kind of took it upon ourselves to do what we think of as some of the trail blazing in that space. We actually went to the federal regulators, the OCC, and got a bank charter. And so what we did was we took our state charter trust company, converted it into a national bank. And so when you're holding your Bitcoin or your Ethereum or any of your other long tail of assets that you might have, whether it's some of our clients have bought NFTs and they're holding those in our bank or Ethereum other assets and they're say, staking, their assets, you do all of that within a chartered bank.

Nathan McCauley: (11:17)
So this is extremely meaningful for any kind of institutional investor. Their primary regulator is the SEC. And so we want to make sure that we can help our clients meet any of their obligations to the SEC. And increasingly one of those sets of clients that wants to do that is FinTechs and banks. Others who are kind of looking to roll out services in this area really like the idea of working with a technology provider that is also regulated at the same level as them. There's a lot of kind of joint shared responsibility that you can do if you have kind of blockchain focused compliance people. And as we look at banks coming in, especially looking at all of the compliance and regulatory obligations they might have as a bank, looking at how to make sure that they properly think about capital adequacy and balance sheet versus non balanced sheet treatment for the assets. There's just a really irreducible complexity when it comes to coming into the space.

Nathan McCauley: (12:15)
And so we look at packaging kind of all of that together, both the technology to do the custody, and kind of a partner on the regulatory and compliance side to really bring things to market sooner. Whole reason we want to do this is that we think that this is probably the most exciting asset class that has come up and certainly the most exciting asset class that will come up in our lifetimes. And what we want to do is make sure it's available to everybody. And the best way to make it available to everybody is that every bank becomes a crypto bank. And really every business becomes a crypto bank in the same way that there's no notion at this point of an internet business. Everybody is an internet business. We assume that everybody will become a crypto business and we want to be an enabling force for that movement.

Michael Casey: (13:02)
So everybody becomes a crypto bank or a crypto business, because a bank is a very specific regulatory status. Or is it that we are moving to a world where these lines get blurred somewhat?

Nathan McCauley: (13:14)
I think the way we think about it is that increasingly, say over the next several decades, it is very likely that most banks will decide that they want to hold Bitcoin, will decide that they want to hold this asset class for their clients. And a lot of that is going to be because of their retail clients wanting to do it, but also their institutional clients doing it. So especially when you look at the diversity of kinds of assets that you look at, sure, you've got Bitcoin and Ethereum, which are primarily right there as investment assets. You start to look at stable coins, stablecoins might well be the underpinning of the next generation of payments for America and for the world globally. If you're going to be a bank that builds on USDC or other stablecoins, you're going to want a partner that you can work with. In our case, just to take an example of that, Visa is working with us in order to settle USDC payments entirely within the Visa network. So you can settle a payment entirely in USDC using the Anchorage infrastructure that is built up there.

Nathan McCauley: (14:22)
And so we think as there is a ongoing proliferation of digital assets, a lot of these use cases will start to come together. So yes, it will be banks that come, but then it will be all of the other businesses will be processing and looking at maybe accepting payments in stablecoins, holding assets, and really kind of building up their infrastructure on top of this blockchain ecosystem.

Michael Casey: (14:47)
[inaudible 00:14:47] one of the most interesting and dynamic areas of digital assets in the past year has been the lending business and been built on top of that. And BlockFi is truly a trailblazer in that. But you've run into some challenges lately on the regulatory front, speaking of that. I know there's probably limits to what you can answer here. But how is this all going to play out? And what's your expectation? You've had a number of cease and desist letters from state regulators. And of course we had the case last week where Coinbase revealed that they had a Wells letter from the SEC about their own lending program. It looks to some as if there's a big bucket of cold water being thrown on this business. Is that the case, or is there a more positive outlook from all of this?

Zac Prince: (15:35)
Yeah, so I certainly think there's a positive angle. So first off, in case anyone's not familiar with BlockFi, we're a financial services provider to both retail and institutional market participants in the space. So on the retail side of our platform, we're most well known for being one of the first news that enabled folks to earn interest on their cryptocurrency and also stable coin holdings at really attractive rates. Recently, we also launched the world's first Bitcoin rewards credit card where you earn Bitcoin instead of airline miles or regular cash back. And then on the institutional side of our platform, we provide bespoke financing and trade execution for both this spot and derivatives market to institutional clients that include hedge funds, asset managers, market making firms, proprietary trading firms, and crypto corporates.

Zac Prince: (16:23)
Prior to starting BlockFi, I was in the online lending industry. And like a lot of other FinTech sectors, I think the cryptocurrency and specifically the cryptocurrency lending sector is starting to go through a regulatory come to Jesus moment in time. And these things happen. It happened in online lending. It happened in payments if you read books about PayPal. And so what's happened so far for BlockFi is New Jersey sent us a order requiring us to stop accepting new clients to earn interest on our platform. This happened back in July. The order initially had a 48 hour effective date or a 48 hour effective window of time. That's now been pushed back multiple times. But there have been four other states who have jumped into the fray and sent information requests or public hearing notifications to BlockFi.

Zac Prince: (17:16)
And ultimately, I think, and the Coinbase news points to this, there needs to be clarity at the national level. So we're not going to decide what box crypto lending belongs in based on what New Jersey does or what Texas does or what any one other state does. It's going to come down to federal regulators like the SEC or the OCC creating a path for this type of activity to happen, which I believe is fundamentally activity that's good for consumers. It's good for the cryptocurrency market. And it's activity that we want America to lead on.

Zac Prince: (17:52)
So from the early days of BlockFi, we've blazed trails in terms of regulation. Going back to 2017, we were the first company in a lot of states to get licensed to make loans to people secured by their Bitcoin as collateral. And I think that we're having very productive conversations now. I can't talk too much about who we're having those conversations with and what that may result in. But I think that ultimately we'll get this right. There's going to be a period of time where things are getting sorted out for BlockFi and others in the industry. But I think that America will land on the right side of this, and there'll be clarity provided, which will just further fuel growth of the industry.

Michael Casey: (18:34)
So I want to, in a moment, drill down into all of the interesting things that can be done with these new lending protocols and the like, and what that means for institutions like the Fairfax County Police Officers Fund. But just running with the regulatory story for a little bit, because it has become, I think, quite interesting of late. Certainly it feels more intense. In both directions, you feel as if there is a growing awareness of the opportunity here and on Capitol Hill. A bipartisan interest amongst certain lawmakers in some sort of very constructive, innovative approaches to regulation, but also a somewhat more vociferous voice of the antagonist as well. So first of all, Dan, I was just thinking, because you've been watching this again for eight years now, what's your read on where it's going? Is this just sort of a natural part of the evolution? Because you say there's still a number of decades to go until we end up wherever this is supposed to be. What's your read on the current regulatory outlook for the space?

Dan Morehead: (19:32)
Well, I think it's important to focus on the fact that most of the regulatory bodies in most countries have ruled very favorably about blockchain. And most of them ruled eight years ago. The IRS ruled that cryptocurrencies properties, you get long term capital gain tax treatment. The OCC, CFTC has always been very progressive. So most of the regulatory bodies have ruled. There's a few that are still trying to figure it out, which it's going to take it a little bit of time. But most of the bodies have ruled and that's globally, too. Most countries, they're regulatory bodies are at least neutral. There's a few countries like Luxembourg who are very positive on crypto. So, and it's a global phenomenon. China has a blockchain. And so the blockchain toothpaste is out of the tube and the U.S. has to have a policy and catch up. And the federal reserve is building a blockchain, but it is one of those things that whether you love it or hate it, blockchain is here. And so regulators have to get on it.

Michael Casey: (20:36)
Nathan, Zac was talking about this kind of this almost pivotal moment. Somebody has some sort of reconciliation or it needs to happen perhaps at that national level. And there are folks who are saying it's time for a legislative response that it's just the SEC might be sort of dealing with some outdated laws at this stage. And I think you've mentioned to us in one of our conversations that there's this international component to this. Dan was alluding to it that U.S. leadership in many respects is at stake. Talk us through that if you don't mind. How do you see that playing out?

Nathan McCauley: (21:10)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, to Dan's point earlier, we are in very, very early innings of what maybe decades or centuries long movements that'll be I think we all on stage probably feel that this is going to be extremely important for America and kind of America's place in the global financial system, global financial capital markets really dominance in a lot of ways. And so getting a real handle on the way we want to set that up, strategically the way that the United States financial system will kind of continue to have increased relevance in this new ecosystem. All of these are kind the core policy questions that need to get answered. But we're incredibly [inaudible 00:21:58] that. I mean, we are the first crypto bank to kind of be live, be taking clients' assets on and processing that.

Nathan McCauley: (22:08)
And so there's just one so far. There are a few folks that are doing lending programs like Zac's. So there's just a lot of work to do. And we're very early on with this. Likely the rise of the kind of the tech and internet ecosystem is helpful to kind of think about this. It is very good from a national security sense, from a global policy sense that some of the biggest internet companies are based here in America.

Nathan McCauley: (22:38)
And I think that we would do well to make sure that the big crypto companies are based here. And any nation on earth should probably want that. And that is kind of the core policy question on how do we do that? How do we do that while maintaining the safety and soundness of the system? But how do we make sure that the value accrual that comes from being such a big player in the global financial markets perpetuates? And I think that a lot of that is around keeping the innovation here, making sure that lots of that kind of innovation can happen, but then also providing the clarity that's needed and likely clarity at the federal level will be the most helpful and the highest impact.

Zac Prince: (23:26)
Yeah. If I could expand on that a little bit. So one of the things that I think is often a misnomer from folks who are learning about crypto for the first time and they come in with an expectation that inherently the cryptocurrency industry is anti-dollar or Bitcoin is meant to disrupt the dollar and take over as the global reserve currency. And I actually think that if you look at what's happening in the industry, if you look at the growth of stablecoins, if you look at adoption on platforms like BlockFi and others of not just folks in the U.S. but companies and individuals outside the U.S. borrowing in dollars, which is a massive market in the traditional financial system. It's over a $12 trillion market of dollar denominated debt that's held by ex-U.S. companies and governments, which has typically had very restricted access in terms of smaller companies and individuals. But the cryptocurrency industry and the platforms like the ones represented on this stage enables that to become much more available on a global scale.

Zac Prince: (24:33)
And so I think that as education happens, folks will learn that the cryptocurrency industry and the technology that supports it is actually very positive for the interest of America and the interest of the dollar. And that's a storyline that I think will continue to come out as data is shared and folks educate themselves on what's happening in the industry.

Michael Casey: (24:57)
On that note, Michael, when Dan first started investing in this space, he said there was just one asset. That was all you really focused on. And now there's this proliferation of so many different, not just assets, but actually investing strategies. There's lending strategies and a whole host of yield farming games and so forth. What are you seeing as a provider to this industry about where the activity is going right now?

Michael Shaulov: (25:22)
I mean, we actually see that there is a tremendous momentum around DeFi, decentralized finance. And for people here that are not familiar with what DeFi is. So DeFi is essentially sort of those autonomous financial applications that are able to run on the blockchain and facilitate whether it's trading or lending or anything that you basically familiar from the traditional financial shelf space. They're able to perform that by running on top of the blockchain in a way with where there is no sort of single counter party that you're taking risk into and it's all programmatic. So clearly in the last 18 months, we've seen an explosion around the utilization of DeFi protocols. And it's actually like almost everything in crypto it's actually started from retail.

Michael Shaulov: (26:16)
It was a retail phenomenon. You had retail investors that were basically working with those DeFi protocol using something's called MetaMask. It's like a really cute plugin for Chrome with a fox that you can use. And suddenly, I would say a bit over a year ago, we started to see this massive influx of hedge funds and market makers and essentially anyone who was interested in this technology coming in. We were sort of a bit lucky because we've made some technology investments to support it ahead of time. And about nine months, I would say, we created institutional capabilities to do it in a secure way with the policies and workflows and all that. And nowadays we have say about 25% to 30% of our clients are basically using DeFi as part of their strategies. Everything from yield farming, which is basically creating some financial incentives, but we are seeing a real world use cases around using DeFi.

Michael Shaulov: (27:28)
So I'll just give an interesting example of how this relates to stablecoins. So stablecoin is basically a token that it represents a real FX currency, one to one. And there are protocols like Uniswap and Curve that essentially allow you to do this exchange between one stablecoin to another stablecoin. So you can do it between one form of U.S. dollar such as USDC to USDT, which is the stablecoin that is actually popular in Asia. Or you can do it between, for example USDC to a tokenized Japanese yen. And the efficiency of those markets that you see on DeFi protocol are in some cases are actually better from a slippage standpoint than the FX rate that you would get through the bank.

Michael Shaulov: (28:19)
So you're actually starting to see people basically looking into that. And interesting enough, we have been seeing quite a lot of those banks, quite a lot of the banks that we working with, or having conversation with seriously looking into DeFi because now when you're basically thinking about what does it mean for FX? You have 24/7 system that settles immediately. You don't have cutoffs. It's not like 5:00 PM, that's it. You cannot send the wire. You can basically execute hedge on a foreign exchange and every given point. You can do it over the weekends. So it has this amazing promise. The caveat there is really that if we talked earlier about compliance and regulatory oversight, DeFi is probably in the most extreme area of the non-regulated right now.

Michael Shaulov: (29:17)
Those are completely permissionless protocols. Anyone can access those protocols from anywhere in the world. And clearly there is a lot of questions that comes from an anti-money laundering over there. So there are multiple initiatives right now going on in the industry in terms of figuring out, I would say that part and basically make it more kosher and basically bring it to the very regulated institutions that they will be able to use those protocols as well, and basically push it into the mainstream.

Michael Casey: (29:53)
I want to bring Katherine in a moment, if I could hear about the sort of a very regulated, or at least more conservative institution would feel about these opportunities. But just before I do, what is the profile of the 30% clients that you referred to? What kind of investors are we talking about who are really sort of using those services right now?

Michael Shaulov: (30:09)
Yeah, so right now we are seeing mostly I would say hedge funds, market makers, prop traders. But we actually seeing asset managers sort of stepping in and want to use there are two very famous protocols over there, Aave and Compound that are basically are able to generate yield on stablecoin or on other assets. And, but I would say for the next right now, the people that are interacting with those protocols, they're able to wrap their head around the compliance aspects. The next wave of investors that I think we are going to see coming in is once we are able to solve the compliance issues that surround those protocols. And there are a few initiatives over there that are being some of them already in beta and some of them will launch by the end of the year.

Michael Shaulov: (31:09)
So just as an example, we have a project going on with Aave, which is sort of like this multi billion dollar DeFi protocol which creates a sanctioned sort of pool. You only interact with people, although it's running on DeFi, you only interact with people that pass the same KYC, AML procedures as you are. And we already have about 40 institutions that are participating in that beta. And you actually see over there, banks, you see some of the biggest asset managers that are in that beta. And it's like a very different demography of people that are coming to [inaudible 00:31:51]

Michael Casey: (31:51)
Yeah. It's amazing how quick it's moving. But Katherine, are you looking to take those policemen's money and farm some yield in the DeFi world at this stage?

Katherine Molnar: (32:02)
Absolutely. And so some of the companies that have been mentioned today up here are portfolio companies and the funds that we already have investments in. And so happily, some of them have done very, very well already in the last few years. And so I guess as an investor, and I'll just, I'll pivot this a little bit, but when we started looking at the space, there's a lot to look at and it depends on if you want to be completely liquid. So on the cryptocurrency side, it depends on if you're willing to be locked up. So venture capital, which is making obviously private investments in some of these companies. And so that's just one thing to mention. And as I mentioned earlier, our investments today have all been in the venture capital realm. But in each case also, there is a certain portion that's liquid cryptocurrency.

Katherine Molnar: (32:47)
As I also mentioned, we're about to recommend a manager which is completely liquid cryptocurrency, and it's long and short. And I mentioned that because they do do yield farming. They do do basis trading. They have part of their strategy that's market neutral. And it's not something when you think about like a classic hedge fund that might be market neutral, that they're typically taking out beta to equities. Well, in this case, they're market neutral, they're taking out beta to Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies themselves. So we think of that as a hedge fund strategy like we would think of a market neutral equity market neutral manager, or other type of a relative value strategy. So it's really interesting. So in that case, it's not directional, whereas as I keep kind of going back and forth here, but whereas the cryptocurrency that I have in my venture capital funds is completely long only. So I have long only beta, if you will, to cryptocurrency over here. And then over here, I'm going to, hopefully if it gets approved, have a classic hedge fund.

Katherine Molnar: (33:43)
And I think that there really are a lot of inefficiencies. I mean, this part of this realm, if you will, is still really new. So I think that there's still a decent amount of inefficiency, which hopefully means that there's a lot of interesting alpha opportunities for the crypto hedge funds to take advantage of.

Michael Casey: (34:01)
Zac, it's useful to think about this because Michael was talking about 24/7 markets, realtime settlement and so forth. And I think the not so well informed folks who look at the lending space, the DeFi space as well, and look at these yields and say, okay, this has got to be some scam. The fed funds rate's at zero. And how are you getting four or six, seven, eight? Walk us through the math because some of it is in fact, the efficiencies of this settlement process. And or is it just opportunistic lending? Because you've also got this institutional marketplace that you're operating in on behalf of others, maybe just explaining how all that comes together to enable the kind of yields that are available would be useful.

Zac Prince: (34:49)
Yeah, sure. So I think one of the things that can be confusing is that it is quite different on the dollar or stablecoin side versus the cryptocurrency side. But in both cases, the fundamental reason why you see platforms like BlockFi offering mid or high single digit annual interest rates on these assets is that the cryptocurrency sector is not connected to traditional debt capital markets yet. You don't have large scale banks making loans to cryptocurrency companies, maybe with the exception of Coinbase and MicroStrategy now who are in the public equity markets and able to raise debt using their publicly traded equity. But other than that, you don't really have connectivity there. So as a result, you're left with private debt markets or just higher cost of capital debt markets like BlockFi and other alternative lenders.

Zac Prince: (35:43)
And this happens in other sectors. I frequently reference a publicly traded [inaudible 00:35:49] called Innovative Industrial Properties. And they do triple net leases on warehouses where folks grow cannabis. And you can't do bank financing for that. If they were growing carrots, it would have a three, four percent cost of capital. But they're growing cannabis, so it's 15%. And so by participating in these lending programs, you're helping to finance this market that doesn't have access to traditional financing. And therefore the cost of capital is higher. And what's I think particularly compelling if you're thinking about a risk adjusted return as a debt investor, is that when you're lending in these markets, you typically have liquid collateral. So it's kind of like this super low risk form of lending where you can manage the risk in the book, liquidate a position if needed. And in the three and a half years since BlockFi has been lending, we've never lost a penny across any of the lending that we do. So despite it being in an asset class that's very volatile, it's low risk and you're getting very well compensated for that.

Zac Prince: (36:49)
And then on the cryptocurrency side, if you are a market making firm or a proprietary trading firm and you're make a market or participating in any asset class, commodities, FX, generally you want to have some inventory. And in the cryptocurrency sector, the inventory that you need is Bitcoin and Ethereum. And furthermore, there are lots of compelling arbitrage opportunities. It could be the futures basis, which, which blows out very frequently. It could be trust products that are traded over the counter at big premiums or discounts to nav. And for these types of trades, you want to be short the underlying for one leg of that trade to execute it effectively. And so you need to borrow cryptocurrency for that. So the institutional clients at BlockFi generally borrow and cryptocurrency. Dollars are borrowed by institutions and retail investors participating in the space. And I think the rates will stay high for quite a while.

Michael Casey: (37:49)
Yeah. Often reminds me of the repo market, this activity which is interesting seeing how these models emerge in a digital world. Dan, as somebody who's gone on this journey, what are you excited about now? I mean these new DeFi lending models, what's the next big zeitgeist you think?

Dan Morehead: (38:09)
Yeah, I guess I would say that to bring it full circle is there is more than one asset now. And a lot of my friends are Bitcoin maximalists and it's got to be about Bitcoin. But the only thing I would share as advice to investors is there are so many different interesting protocols to invest in out there and so many different companies. And so a portfolio should be more than just one thing. And the perspective I would have is Bitcoin's been amazing. Our fund is up 600X. So Bitcoin's done great, but and I think it's going to go up another 10X or something from here. But I'm not sure that I actually think the majority of future gains are from things other than Bitcoin. And I know that sounds radical to some people in the audience, but it's kind of like in 1998, saying that majority of future tech gains were not in Microsoft.

Dan Morehead: (39:02)
Microsoft did great. It was worth $260 billion then, but Amazon was worth $10 billion. Apple was worth one and Google and Facebook were zero. They weren't even existing yet. And since then, Microsoft's only been 20% of the gains since 1988 in tech. All these other companies that didn't even exist in 1998. And that's the spirit I have here is that I think Bitcoin's going to go up a ton. It's a huge, great investment. If that's all you can get through your IC, you should be long Bitcoin. But if you can be long a basket of things, I think it's going to outperform.

Michael Casey: (39:38)
Did they let you speak at Bitcoin Miami? That would've been heresy. How about you, Nathan, what do you see from your sort of-

Nathan McCauley: (39:51)
I think just to kind of piggyback off what Dan is saying, this is one of the things that is clear in the conversation we having with many of the global financial institutions, say banks or others. They're really kind of looking at the next 10, 20 years and understanding this is an asset class. And this is truly a comprehensive asset class [inaudible 00:40:12] think about strategically. And so anybody kind of developing a strategy in this, whether you're a bank or an investment advisor, or even a pension, is to look at what is the sum total of the opportunities here? The way that I think about Bitcoin is Bitcoin was in many ways it was a gift to the world. And that Bitcoin functionally acts as a global public utility.

Nathan McCauley: (40:39)
It is owned by no one. Everybody gets to participate in it. And the most optimistic version of what's what's coming within crypto is that we can have dozens if not hundreds of global public utilities that are available and co-owned as know really infrastructure for the world. And so Bitcoin kind of blazed that trail for us. But there's a huge, huge amount of these that are going to come out over the next several decades. Going to be really exciting and going to be really kind of leveling of the playing field for a lot of financial inclusion acts-

Dan Morehead: (41:16)
... Of all the crypto gains have been things other than Bitcoin. Since mid-February, Bitcoin has kind of drifted down and other tokens have created hundreds of billions of value.

Michael Casey: (41:30)
So the market cap itself has grown, but Bitcoin has not been driver.

Dan Morehead: (41:34)
Yeah. And during that time it's been non Bitcoin tokens that have done more than 100% of the game.

Michael Casey: (41:39)
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of focus on the flippiting with the [inaudible 00:41:42] and that may be just missing the point really. It's actually sort of this bigger universe. So this is the vision, Katherine. You heard it from Nathan, this sort of this emerging asset class, this idea of all of these sort of opportunities that exist in what I think you described as it almost like a technology player, bet on the internet, almost a new internet. But what needs to happen so that a lot of these other funds can follow the Fairfax County Policemen into this space. We've talked about custody, but there's other elements of the infrastructure that need to be in place, right?

Katherine Molnar: (42:18)
Obviously we were comfortable doing this three years ago. And, I wouldn't say that it was perfect. And I guess I wouldn't say that many investments are probably perfect. But as I said earlier, the service providers weren't kind of as institutional in nature, if you will, three years ago. And that's changing. But I think that in general, I made that comment that if we see a manager that self-custodies, if this were five years ago and I we're looking at a different strategy, and I would think I would never hire a manager who would do that. But indeed we did. And I understand the reasons why when some of these tokens initially get released and you can't find a custodian that is able to custody them for a certain period. So I understand the rationale for why people do self-custody.

Katherine Molnar: (43:04)
In the case of one of the managers I mentioned, they self-custody and but then they do also use an external custodian, but then they actually own that custodian as well. And so there can be a lot of kind of entangling potential conflicts of interest that if you were looking at any other sector, and I spent a lot of time looking at alternatives and hedge funds prior to my current role. And there are a lot of reasons to say no. There are plenty of reasons to say no, to be perfectly frank, as an institutional investor. Plenty of reasons to say no. But I wouldn't say that you should just suspend your judgment. But I would say that you need to look with an open mind and realize that it's an emerging area. And that means that all of the service providers and everything around it is also still emerging and for all of us to be a little bit open-minded.

Katherine Molnar: (43:47)
But I think it'll get there. And I think we happen to be somewhat of the mindset that we do think eventually that most assets are probably are going to be digitized. And so if you think that, then you ought to be an adopter of everything that we're talking about. So I think people will get there. I mean, I will say the following. I think that that crypto is extremely volatile. So I think you need to go into it expecting that and size it appropriately and have an appetite or at least a willingness to accept a lot of volatility. And I do also think that, and I think this comment was made this morning on a panel, but I think that if every institution were today or tomorrow going to go out and populate one percent of their portfolio with Bitcoin, I think you'd have some tremendous issues with liquidity as well. So, I mean, I think that it's still growing, but I think we'll get there.

Michael Casey: (44:40)
Be careful what you wish for in a way. You don't when them all coming in at once. But just to draw that a little bit more, it seems to me there's been quite a bit of discussion about these [inaudible 00:44:49] providers and prime brokerages for example. You went into this without the kind of handholding of a prime brokerage. How valuable will it be for maybe funds that don't have the capacity to sort of take this more radical views that you did to have something like that kind of more focused service?

Katherine Molnar: (45:12)
Yeah, absolutely. I think that would be great. I'm sure that would be really helpful. I mean for us, it just even, honestly, just even trying to get a sense of how large the universe is of managers. You have people like Pantera that are very well known, and they've been doing this for a long time. And there's a group of managers who I would put in that camp.

Katherine Molnar: (45:35)
But you have a lot of people who've been doing this two years or less. And I mean, I don't know how many crypto funds there are, but there are a lot. So even just honestly trying to get your hands around, okay, how large is the universe? Who's doing this? Are they doing crypto? Are they doing venture? Are they doing tokens? Even just trying to get your arms around that, when we forget understanding that the actual technology part of this, it's a lot to take on. And so depending the size of your team, and we have a very small team, I mean, it's a lot to get your arms around. So and I think as a result of that, I think the consultant community is probably kind of coming up to speed now. And, but I think things will get there.

Michael Casey: (46:12)
Michael, what have you seen in terms of that kind of educational element to it? I mean, these clients who come to you and you've got to walk them through this new field. Explaining something like NPC for one is difficult, but then all these other elements as well.

Michael Shaulov: (46:27)
I mean, I think that I spend probably 50% of my time on education. I think that it takes time to familiarize people with the concepts of this brave new world. And I think that to Katherine's point, I think a lot of the concepts in this space are actually contradictory to the way that finance was working for last 500 years, 100 years. And in many aspects, really blockchain is a revolution that probably is the most impactful revolution since the federal reserve was set up in terms of how clearing and settlement is working and this technology. Yeah, I remember that we spent about maybe three hours on the workshop with all the sort of the chief information officers and the CISOs and one of the big banks. And after two hours, they basically, we need a break. Our mind has just exploded from everything that you guys were explaining.

Michael Shaulov: (47:35)
So we spend a lot of time on education. I think that there are many layers. And I think that clearly different people want to understand different things. But it's also very clear that this is going to replatform finance. I mean, the aspect around the fact that the assets are going to be tokenized. I think if two years ago people were not so sure about it. I think that now it's sort of a common thesis among pretty much all the practitioners. And I think that understanding exactly how it works is sort of important because it does fundamentally changes the way that things work.

Michael Shaulov: (48:24)
I mean, just an interesting example, I was sitting with one of the partners of a hedge fund that was affected in the GameStop saga. And when I explain to them how blockchain works and especially how the clearing works, they like suddenly there was silence and they say, hey if this was actually tokenized and there wasn't this three day gap between the point that the trade was booked and until it was actually cleared, we wouldn't be short squeezed. And that's just something that is sort of very technical aspect, but it's important to the level of the partners and the people that really take the decisions.

Michael Casey: (49:12)
Yes. It's like where I come from, the penny drop moment, the sort of sudden realization that it all comes together. And I think that's one of the experiences that a lot of us have had in this space. I did want you to have one quick, last word, Zac, just we've got half a minute. We don't have much time, unfortunately. But just you service both retail institutions. We have a lot of focus on the institutions here, but it seems like the trailblazers in terms of investors in this space have always been retail. Is that going to continue?

Zac Prince: (49:39)
Yeah, I think absolutely. And I really wanted to answer the question of what am I excited about because I did something the other day that wowed me. It reminded me of the first time I transferred money off of Coinbase to buy Ethereum back in 2016. And that was really scary for a year because Ethereum crashed 60%, but I remember it being wild. And that happened to me recently with Solana who I know is here and Phantom wallet. So I would encourage everyone to, if you can find five minutes, 10 minutes, interact with some of the actual tools out there in the ecosystem. Try Meta Mask, try Phantom wallet on Solana, there's some really, really cool stuff. And when you see it in action, you really have this kind of aha moment. And I think that can be eye opening and motivating to take it into whatever your professional day job is and help create some advocates within the firm.

Michael Casey: (50:38)
So there go folks. You have your CTA, some homework to do. Get out there, play around with it. It's definitely the best way to learn. A round of applause for this tremendous panel. Thanks very much.

Institutional-Quality Digital Asset Infrastructure | #SALTNY

Institutional-Quality Digital Asset Infrastructure with David Mercer, Chief Executive Officer, LMAX Group.

Moderated by Rachel Pether, Senior Advisor, SkyBridge.

Powered by RedCircle

 

MODERATOR

SPEAKER

Headshot - Mercer, David - Cropped.jpeg

David Mercer

Chief Executive Officer

LMAX Group

Rachel Pether, CFA.jpeg

Rachel Pether

Senior Advisor

SkyBridge

TIMESTAMPS

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Rachel Pether: (00:07)
I'm doing a fireside chat with David Mercer on institutional quality crypto infrastructure. It's very exciting for me, because we actually did a prerecord for this last week, thinking that David wouldn't be able to make it out from London.

Rachel Pether: (00:21)
But he has indeed been able to make it out from London. Mercer, the CEO of LMAX Group, to the stage. David and Rachel, take two.

David Mercer: (00:45)
Isn't this better?

Rachel Pether: (00:46)
So much better than virtually. Let's start from the very beginning. You have had experience on the FX side, and LMAX Group started off as an FX trading firm exchange, moved to crypto currency. When did you personally have your "Eureka" moment on the cryptocurrency as a legit legitimate asset class?

David Mercer: (01:11)
Well, I'd love to say it was eight years ago. It wasn't. It was actually the tail end of 2017.

David Mercer: (01:19)
Now, look, someone had presented it to us in 2013, and we were just busy building out our FX exchange. So we let that slide. And then, in 2017, some of my biggest trading partners ... So, to give you an idea, all the world's largest banks, 34 banks, are connected to me, all the major proprietary trading firms in the world trade within LMAX Group, when one of our five exchanges.

David Mercer: (01:45)
So, the end of 2017, the sort of first crypto summer, they started knocking on the door and said, "Look, David, we need some institutional grade infrastructure. We need something robust, where we can exchange risk in size with like-minded participants."

David Mercer: (02:03)
These are the biggest prop trading firms in New York, Chicago, Amsterdam, and London. So if you like, we said, "Okay, let's, let's have a look at it."

David Mercer: (02:12)
I engaged Compliance, Risk, Technology, set off the R&D guys at the end of 2017, and said, "Is it feasible? Is it viable?"

David Mercer: (02:22)
What we discovered was the trade formation, the clearing the order book was identical to what we do in our five FX exchanges. So I remember, to this day, we had a sort of all hands meeting at the end of 2017.

David Mercer: (02:38)
The answers had come back positive. I had Compliance in the room, Risk in the room, Liquidity in the room, Sales, Technology. Are we doing this or not? Everyone said yes. So we went from field to fork, as I like to say, in six months.

David Mercer: (02:53)
We launched LMAX Digital, which was the fifth of our exchanges, at the start of 2018. It's our fastest growing exchange. Today, we trade $2.5 billion dollars a day in crypto, and about 30 billion overall in FX.

David Mercer: (03:10)
So, a little bit late to the party, going back to your question about the "Eureka" moment. But certainly, 2017, we knew we had to be in this exciting new asset class.

Rachel Pether: (03:21)
So let's talk a bit further about that, from the FX experience that you've had, that LMAX Group has had, and also the experience on the cryptocurrency side. Are you seeing much convergence between those two asset classes?

David Mercer: (03:36)
The short answer is yes, but then, that would make for a pretty short interview. So look, these are the way to say it is, 40% of LMAX Digital customers trade another asset class within LMAX Group.

David Mercer: (03:52)
What does that mean? They trade FX or us. Our biggest five liquidity providers in LMAX Digital are in my top 10 FX traders, day in, day out.

David Mercer: (04:06)
It was them that pushed us to enter the space and to launch LMAX Digital, because they actually want to trade with each other. We want to trade with each other on a central limit order book.

David Mercer: (04:18)
So I think that's just going to extend. Why I'm super excited overall for the industry, and certainly for us, is that the banks haven't come yet, but I knocked on 34 doors, 34 bank doors, in 2017.

David Mercer: (04:34)
I said, "Hey, any interest in this new asset class?" And they said, "Look, keep us informed, but we can't trade it yet." And today they're not really actively trading yet.

David Mercer: (04:45)
But roll forward to this crypto summer, 2021 crypto summer, 10 of those banks now take my market data, and three are actively onboarding. I expect them to trade, look, within the next six to 12 months.

David Mercer: (05:02)
It all depends on their external/internal approval. I think there's going to be a convergence of, of customers. In terms of the technology, in many ways, that's how many converged.

Rachel Pether: (05:14)
What do you think? So you mentioned, you know 10 of those banks have actually come on board, starting to do more in that space. What do you think is holding the institutions back or the banks? I mean, it can't be from lack of client interest, I'm guessing, because there was quite a push.

David Mercer: (05:31)
Well, I mean, let's look at that client interest. So we're here, this is primarily a crypto event, and we're all believers in the future of that, but it's still quite early, it's still quite small.

David Mercer: (05:46)
So the total market cap of crypto today is in the region of one and a half to $2 trillion. Foreign exchange trade's $7 trillion every day. Gold currently is valued at $10 trillion.

David Mercer: (06:02)
So, so far, they've just been exploring it. They haven't had to do it. Now I think they do have to do it, because if you talk to any of the large banks around, people are taking money out of their bank account with those household names, and they're putting it to work on some of the crypto platforms out there.

David Mercer: (06:22)
Look, the biggest thing, really, is you need the ABC of crypto, you need adoption, which is market access. You need banking of crypto entities, and you need clearing and credits, right? And credit is the big thing stopping institutions, enter the space today.

David Mercer: (06:42)
What do I mean by that? They're used to trading multi-asset classes through the same credit intermediary. That's normally a bank or their prime broker. That's the big hurdle at the moment, and part of credit and clearing is the safekeeping, or the custody of assets.

David Mercer: (07:00)
Again, typically the biggest custodians in the world are those banks. That's the real hurdle for say, the real money or the asset managers, with funds of the world. The hurdle for the banks is more internal approval, risk approval, and the slightly hazy regulatory framework that's there at the moment.

Rachel Pether: (07:23)
Yeah. We did speak a bit about that before, on this tension between regulation and innovation, as well. What role, then, are you seeing the institutions play in this transition?

Rachel Pether: (07:38)
You mentioned credit. What else needs to happen, and what impact do you see that having on your business?

David Mercer: (07:44)
Well, I mean, to be clear, there's a lot of people out there, who are sort of crypto evangelists, think, "This should be peer to peer. This should be all to all." In many ways, I believe in that, and that's the ethos of crypto.

David Mercer: (07:58)
But we have to be pragmatic about it, right? We have to, at least in the short term, use existing channels. So every efficient market, every efficient capital market, needs a robust, solid institutional framework.

David Mercer: (08:18)
So if you like, when I entered the space, God help me, I guess, 20 or 30 years ago, people were paying 1% back in the day to buy equities. Now, I guess, you're going to see that you can buy an equity for free, or not feel free to discuss.

David Mercer: (08:36)
But again, so it's, all of that comes down to the framework, and the nature of that institutional trading environment that's been created, that offers greater price discovery, greater market access, all the way through the market segments to the private investors. So it's essential that we build that institutional framework.

David Mercer: (09:02)
I mean, price discovery is key. So if you come to our LMAX Digital today, you're going to see, he price in Bitcoin, and the price in Ethereum is going to be the price of Bitcoin and the price of Ethereum.

David Mercer: (09:12)
Why do I say that? Well, you've got only institutions trading it. You've got 500 institutions trading it. You've got the biggest 20 institutions in the world, trading it, making markets.

David Mercer: (09:24)
And more importantly, they price every other venue on the street. So they price all the retail environments. They see the smaller tickets, and exchange bigger tickets on LMAX Digital, with like-minded participants. So that bit, that liquidity, that price discovery, is essential for this to thrive.

David Mercer: (09:44)
Of course, when you then get into the sort of borrowing and lending market, or what crypto guys are calling yield farming, that starts at institutional level. I think all of those will only help the ecosystem, the overall or the wider ecosystem grow, in the next five to 10 years.

Rachel Pether: (10:08)
But the lending, that's also the part that I feel is getting the most regulatory ...

David Mercer: (10:14)
Sure.

Rachel Pether: (10:15)
Sort of view at the moment. So do you think that will be one of the harder ...

David Mercer: (10:17)
But you know, regulations ...

Rachel Pether: (10:19)
[crosstalk 00:10:19]?

David Mercer: (10:21)
Yeah, sorry to break in. I'm sure it's a question mark right now. Is it a security, is it not a security?

David Mercer: (10:29)
In fact, believe it or not, it's been there for 70 years that it's a security, that a bank account's effectively a security, but then there's a Bank Act that says, "No, it's okay, you can be regulated as a bank."

David Mercer: (10:41)
I think everyone in the ecosystem just needs clarity around the framework. I mean, most of the institutions in the room, most of the institutions I deal with, are heavily regulated, right?

David Mercer: (10:53)
I'm heavily regulated and regulated in four jurisdictions as a broker, as an MTF, which is like a SEF in the UK. So we just need to know, if it's a securities framework? Okay, we'll abide by that. If it's a broker framework, we'll abide by that.

David Mercer: (11:10)
If it's a banking framework, okay, that's a heavier lift, but it's also possible. We just need clarity, and you don't want to get into the situation in crypto, that I see in other asset classes like FX, where you have this regulatory arbitrage between regions.

David Mercer: (11:29)
At the moment, I'm going to tell you that Singapore and the Asia-Pacific region, is very, very crypto friendly. The US can lead, it can lead in crypto, but it needs to be crypto friendly, right?

David Mercer: (11:42)
That doesn't mean allow this free for all, allow a Wild West, just give the major players a framework they can work to. And then the US can be the leading market for crypto. The risk you have at the moment is that the leaders could end up being Asia-Pacific.

Rachel Pether: (12:01)
Yeah, and I think we're really noticing that, I must say, and obviously I'm biased, but Abu Dhabi has done a really great job in the regulatory framework around crypto, and it has based itself on Singapore.

Rachel Pether: (12:12)
There's really no legacy systems to deal with, right? So we can just go on and say, "Let's have a good robust crypto framework, starting from scratch." Are you seeing that I know you're opening, or have recently opened in Asia, is that what you see as one of the [crosstalk 00:12:31]?

David Mercer: (12:30)
Yes, I'm hugely excited by that. So we're going to launch our sixth exchange in Singapore, in Q4 this year. For the first time within LMAX Group, you'll see fiat and crypto on the same platform, fiat and crypto under the same regulation.

David Mercer: (12:54)
The way I see it is, a lot of crypto today, or what you're seeing as crypto today, is basically an on-ramp. So fiat currency is an on-ramp to other investments, right?

David Mercer: (13:05)
Why is Eurodollar the biggest traded currency there? Well, because a lot of US entities need Euros to invest in European companies, or even to buy European stocks.

David Mercer: (13:15)
Today, Ethereum is the on-ramp to DeFi, right? People are now coming to FX exchanges like LMAX Group, and simply, they want to get access, wider market access to, be it something in Bitcoin or Ethereum, or Mexican pesos or dollars, or Euro.

David Mercer: (13:39)
So I think that's the future. By the way, we're not perfect in the UK, the sooner we can get it right in the UK, and get it right in the US, the better it's going to be for the ecosystem, and those institutions I'm talking about, who will ultimately make this asset class grow, and make this asset class fly, potentially, to be bigger than gold within three years.

Rachel Pether: (14:05)
I was just about to ask you for a time frame for that, that you've said within three years. That's quite punchy.

David Mercer: (14:11)
Yeah, Bill Gates said technology never moves as fast in two years as you think, but it was further than you think in 20. It's probably going to be the same for crypto.

David Mercer: (14:22)
I mean, there's no doubt in my mind that you will trade BTC USD as easily as you trade Eurodollar, or sterling or Mexican peso, on LMAX Group today. There's no doubt in my mind that will happen within that three- to five-year time horizon.

David Mercer: (14:41)
It's just going to become de facto. It's going to revolutionize payments settlement. That's the key for capital markets, right? That's where things normally go wrong.

David Mercer: (14:53)
It's going to revolutionize that. Then, for the next generation, they're going to expect to trade Bitcoin as easily as they trade Euros and dollars today.

Rachel Pether: (15:00)
Well, and if you had to look, I know we just have time for one more question. What are you most excited about, then, in the next two to five years?

Rachel Pether: (15:11)
I know you're working on so many different things across the institutional side. What are you most excited about?

David Mercer: (15:16)
Look, I think we're just at the very start. I've absolutely no doubt that Crypto Land will be a multi-DeFi. It's hugely exciting. We recently become a member of the Pyth Network, which I think is going to be the leading oracle.

David Mercer: (15:32)
Now that's amazing, right? You can have all the prices of every asset in the world in one place, from an oracle. That is Pyth. That's exciting for us, a centralized exchange to move into this decentralized DeFi world.

David Mercer: (15:51)
So I think, watch that space, but I think if you're in crypto today, and certainly within LMAX Group, today, it would be 30% of my revenues and 11% of my volumes, but I expect crypto to get on parity with foreign exchange within the next three years.

David Mercer: (16:11)
As I told you already, you know, FX is a $7 trillion a day market. So those are big aims.

Rachel Pether: (16:17)
Excellent. Well, David, thank you so much for your time. It has been a pleasure to do this in person, so thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, David Mercer, from LMAX Group.