“I always wanted to lead soldiers, to be part of a unit that was committed to a mission bigger than themselves.”
H.R. McMaster is the Fouad and Michelle Ajami Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution and Stanford University. A native of Philadelphia, H.R. graduated from the United States Military Academy in 1984. He served as an Army officer for thirty-four years and retired as a Lieutenant General in 2018. He remained on active duty while serving as the 26th Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs.
After serving many years in Afghanistan and Iraq, General McMaster was on the receiving end of policies and strategies disconnected from the reality on the ground. The tendency to view strategy only through one’s own lens can be described as “strategic narcissism,” where we don’t consider the influence other players have on an outcome. This calls for a shift towards “strategic empathy.” “Empathy is really our ability to consider, in particular, the ideology, the emotions, and the aspirations that drive and constrain the other.”
In attempting to tackle major national security issues, we are running into the warnings offered by President George Washington: rival political parties. It important to keep politics out of the military and that notion has become only more important as we’ve seen military deployed to cities and discussions around peaceful transitions of power.
LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE
SPEAKER
General H.R. McMaster
Fouad & Michelle Ajami Senior Fellow
Hoover Institution at Stanford University
MODERATOR
Anthony Scaramucci
Founder & Managing Partner
SkyBridge
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
John Darsie: (00:07)
Hello everyone. And welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is John Darsie. I'm the Managing Director of SALT, which is a global thought leadership forum at the intersection of finance, technology and public policy. SALT Talks are a digital interview series that we launched during the work from home period with leading investors, creators, and thinkers. And what we're really trying to do during SALT Talks is replicate the experience that we provided our global SALT conference series, which we were looking forward to welcoming today's guests to that conference in May. Unfortunately it had to be canceled, but we have a consolation prize today having him on a great SALT Talks. We're very much looking forward to that.
John Darsie: (00:44)
But really our goal here is to provide a window into the minds of subject matter experts, as well as to provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future. And we're very excited today to welcome General H.R McMaster to SALT Talks. General McMaster is the Fouad and Michelle Ajami Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University. He's a native of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He graduated from the United States Military Academy in 1984. He served as an army officer for 34 years and retired as a Lieutenant General in 2018.
John Darsie: (01:18)
He remained on active duty while serving as the 26th assistant to the president for national security affairs within the Trump administration. He also taught history at West Point and holds a PhD in history from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, which is where I grew up, [inaudible 00:01:34] Hills. He's also the author of his most recent book, Battlegrounds, which is a groundbreaking assessment of America's place in the world, drawing from his long engagement with all the issues that he talks about in the book. Including 34 years of service in the US army with multiple tours of duty and battlegrounds overseas and his 13 months as national security advisor in the Trump, white house.
John Darsie: (01:57)
A reminder, if you have any questions for General McMaster during today's SALT Talk, you can enter them in the Q&A box at the bottom of your video screen. And hosting today's talk is SkyBridge founder and managing partner, Anthony Scaramucci, who also served briefly in the Trump administration along with General McMaster. A funny story about that before we get started. Gentlemen, McMaster is a very nice guy. And so when Anthony came and joined the Trump administration, he said, "Anthony, I want to throw you a welcome party." 11 days later, that welcome party still hadn't taken place. So General McMaster asked Anthony, said, "What are we going to do about the party, Anthony. Maybe we'll just turn it into a farewell party."
John Darsie: (02:32)
And that's what they did. So general McMaster and his wife were very gracious and welcoming and saying, thank you to Anthony for his brief tenure in the white house. But with that, I'll turn it over to Anthony for the interview.
Anthony Scaramucci: (02:45)
[inaudible 00:02:45]. Is that like a fun way to start the interview? Is this guy unbelievable? He's getting his two week notice, okay. Today at 4:00 PM. Is that nice? But in all seriousness, that was one of the more fun moments of my short lived career, eating those hamburgers in your backyard, where I think we were at Fort McNair. Isn't that correct sir?
John Darsie: (03:05)
Yes. Absolutely.
Anthony Scaramucci: (03:08)
That was a lot of fun for me. That's about it. That's a lesson for all the young people out there. You got to turn lemons into lemonade. Where you could get fired from the white house after 11 days, you better have a friend in General McMaster, they're going to serve you beer when you need the beer. Okay. So let's go right to the top of your life, because I think this is a super important part of your story. Then I obviously want to delve into our nation's national security and some of your thoughts and opinions on our country or our amazing country. But you went to the United States Military Academy at West Point. Why did you do that? What gave you that inclination?
General H.R. McMaster: (03:44)
Well, I'll tell you Anthony, ever since my earliest memory, I wanted to serve in the army. And it was a combination of, I think both my mom and my dad. My mom was a teacher and an educator and I became a voracious reader of history, from a really young age or reading the juvenile books on biographies and so forth. And then my father, he fought in the Korean war. He enlisted at age 17 to fight in Korea. And then he stayed in the reserves. And so I would see him in his uniform going into the Germantown neighborhood in Philadelphia, where the army reserve infantry unit was where he was first Sergeant. And then later a company commander if we got a direct mission.
General H.R. McMaster: (04:24)
So I always wanted to lead soldiers on be part of a unit that was committed to a mission bigger than themselves. We can build teams. I grew up playing sports. I think that fostering the teamwork and the cohesion within a military unit. And then to be able to operate together in tough conditions, but overcome challenges for a righteous cause. You can't beat that. And so I really was grateful for the opportunity to go to West Point and obviously to serve in the army for 34 years.
Anthony Scaramucci: (04:59)
Let me hold up the book, you know I'm not one for self promotion or for other people's promotion. You know I'm a very low key and somewhat shy guy, but let me hold up the book. And there is the book. You look like one mean tough son of a bitch on the book. But Katie and I, and your daughters know that you're like a little Teddy bear, but there you are on the book looking great. Why did you write the book? You also had another best-selling book called the Dereliction of Duty. I will tell you, I read this book about three weeks ago, H.R. And it is a brilliant expos on what is going on in the world.
Anthony Scaramucci: (05:34)
I would particularly emphasize in your book, the stuff you're writing about [inaudible 00:05:39] and the government of Russia and really what their plans are. I think it's a necessary reading for all concerned citizens of the United States and frankly, citizens of the world. But why did you write the books so?
General H.R. McMaster: (05:51)
Well thanks, Anthony. In places like Afghanistan and Iraq, where I served for many years, I on the receiving end of these policies and strategies developed in Washington that made no sense on the ground in these places. And so, what I wanted to do is write a book that could contribute to an improvement in our strategic competence, our ability to implement a sustained and sensible foreign policy to build a better future for generations to come. And what I'm arguing in the book, one of the themes in the book, Anthony, is this idea of strategic narcissism.
General H.R. McMaster: (06:24)
That we tend to define the world only relation to us and assume that what we do is going to be decisive to achieving a favorable outcome. Or what we decide not to do. And what we don't do is, we don't consider the agency, the influence, the authorship over the future that the other has. Especially our rivals, our enemies and our adversaries. And so, it's an argument for us to compete more effectively to improve our strategic competence, but in so doing as well, Anthony, restore our confidence. Confidence in who we are as a people. This is one of our big vulnerabilities these days, I think is how divided we are and how vitriolic this partisan discourse is. Especially in this election year, but it's this way for years.
Anthony Scaramucci: (07:09)
Well, I want to get to that in a second, but I want to stay on strategic narcissism. There's another term you're using in the book called strategic empathy, which I think is the opposite of that. So can you define both of those terms for our viewers and listeners?
General H.R. McMaster: (07:24)
Sure. So strategic narcissism as I mentioned, the foster world only in relation to us and therefore what we don't do is we don't really consider that the other has to say in the future course of events. It's a profoundly arrogant approach to the world. Empathy is really our ability to consider in particular, the ideology, the emotions, the aspirations that drive and constraint the other. And if we don't have this quality of strategic empathy, a term I borrowed from my friend and a great historian, exactly sure is, we misunderstand the challenges that we're facing.
General H.R. McMaster: (08:00)
We create opportunities for our adversaries and we develop policies and strategies that are actually counterproductive and based on wrong assumptions. So for example, I'll just go quickly through these. China is based on the assumption that China is going to liberalize. They're going to play by the rules, and they're going to liberalize their form of governance as well. Well, that assumption turned out to be false. That Vladimir Putin across three administrations, Anthony, that he's going to change. He's going to be like the Grinch and Christmas. His heart's going to grow two sizes bigger. He's just going to treat Europe and the United States and the West broadly in a fundamentally different way if we just reach out to him.
General H.R. McMaster: (08:38)
Iran, if we just conciliate the Iranian regime and welcome them in to the international community, they'll stop their four decade long proxy war against the great Satan, us, the little Satan Israel, and the [inaudible 00:08:51] I can go on. If there's a organizations in the book, it's to try to understand how the past produced the present as the best way to project into the future, to examine the assumptions on which our policies and strategies have been based, scrutinize them, test them, and then come up with a more full understanding of the challenges we're facing and make some recommendations.
Anthony Scaramucci: (09:19)
Okay. I think it's a brilliant assessment of what's going on. You're also offering some great recommendations in the book. You state early on in the book and throughout the book that you feel that even though you may have some policy disagreements with the current administration, or you may have disagreements with the president himself, you see yourself in the tradition of George Catlett Marshall, who was the chief of staff of the army, went on to become the Secretary of State for Harry Truman. Arguably one of the most novelist Americans. I think the two of us would agree on that.
Anthony Scaramucci: (09:53)
And he had this theory of staying out of the political fray, which was consistent with what George Washington said long ago. And so I was just wondering if you could talk a little bit about that, because I know when your interviews, you push aside some of the more polemic, old discussion, the political elements of that tell us why.
General H.R. McMaster: (10:11)
Well, you and I have talked about this execution. First I get your advice on this as well. I really think that our military has to stay out of politics. And as a serving officer and serving officer as national security advisor, I did my duty as best as I could for the fifth commander in chief under whom I served, since I entered West Point. And, if you go back to our founders, George Washington grandparents led at the English civil war. And George Washington had in his foremost in his mind keep that bold line between the military and domestic politics. The founders also really worried about factions political parties today. And how advocacy for a faction rather than a focus on our common identity or common interest as Americans could drive us apart from one another.
General H.R. McMaster: (11:01)
And again, in their minds, they're thinking of Oliver Cromwell, English civil war. Let's not do that. And so, as a historian, I'm very sensitive to that. And it's pretty sensitive to any indication that even in retirement, that I would get involved in partisan politics. I think it's important to keep a bold line in place. And also, Anthony, I think that what Americans did need at this stage. It's like a [inaudible 00:11:27] tell all book about the Trump administration. The problems as you know, and the challenges we're facing, they're bigger than any one person. They're bigger than even the president.
General H.R. McMaster: (11:36)
And of course we don't live in a monarchy. It's what I'm hopping, is that people will read the book, think about it. Have respectful discussions about the challenges we're facing. And I hope maybe expect more from our government officials broadly, in connection sound and a much more effective foreign policy.
Anthony Scaramucci: (11:57)
Listen, we agree intellectually on that, but we also have talked about another great general, General Cincinnatus. And so, for those on the call that don't remember General Cincinnatus, he was a great Roman general during the time of the Republic. And he was up on his form and he was asked to come down to Rome to put down the insurrection. And when he met with his fellow centurions, the insurrection abated, and the Roman senators wanted to make him a dictator. And he said, "No, I've been called to serve, and I'm here to serve. I'm not here to rule. I'm going back to my form."
Anthony Scaramucci: (12:31)
And obviously George Washington asserted that many times, our city, our great city, Cincinnati is named after him. And so you have some of your colleagues, Admiral McRaven, General Mattis, General Kelly, the great irony there, H.R as you know, he fired me pretty swiftly. But him and I have become personal friends, just goes to show you never hold his grudge. But all three of them have spoken out in different ways about president Trump. I'm going to ask you this question.
Anthony Scaramucci: (13:02)
It's June 1st, the president's clearing Lafayette Square, is using the military to do that. And then he's there with a photo op, obviously General Millie didn't like that. He had to speak out about it. Secretary Espert didn't like that. And General Mattis wrote about it in the Atlantic Magazine saying that this was a misuse of the military, and he felt that the president was a threat to the constitution. I asked John Kelly on SALT Talk like this if he agreed with General Mattis. Do you agree with General Mattis, General McMaster?
General H.R. McMaster: (13:33)
I have made the choice, Anthony, not to criticize the president, vice president Biden, anybody personally. What I do have no problem doing is criticizing decisions and policies of President Trump, or really anybody. Because I think we have to have these open discussions as Americans. In the book I'm very critical of a lot of the Trump administration's foreign policy. I'm very positive about certain aspects of it like China, for example. Lafayette Square it was a mistake, there's no doubt about it. It's regrettable. It was a bad decision. It was unhelpful in what should be an effort to bring us all together as Americans.
General H.R. McMaster: (14:14)
But you know what's happening, Anthony, is like this, okay, that's bad. And then the reaction to it can be just as bad. The suggestion, for example, that the joint chiefs of staff will have a role in a presidential transition that was made by the vice president Biden and others. That's irresponsible as well. With the great thing about our constitution is the executive branch has no say in the transition and our founders were brilliant, I think, in connection with anticipating what could go wrong.
General H.R. McMaster: (14:44)
One of the things that could go wrong as to the military and getting involved in politics, that would be terrible. And other things that would be terrible would be the military getting involved in transition or the executive, the sending president having a say. Who has the say? The American people have a say. And then also the Congress and the judiciary. The executive branch plays no role.
Anthony Scaramucci: (15:06)
The country's 244 years old, we've had 200 years of presidential transition of power. We'll take it back to 1800. We've always had a peaceful transition of power is a remarkable thing about the American experiment, where the losers in the election are willing to be ruled by or served by the winners in the election. The president has said that it's not 100% sanctified in his mind that he would accept the peaceful transfer of power. He's quite dismissive about it when he's asked about it. How do you feel about that? Do you have an opinion about, sir?
General H.R. McMaster: (15:44)
Well, yeah. It's just wrong, Anthony. What I write about in the book is how we were talking about Russia. But it's other actors, but mainly Russians in the lead on this. What they want to do is diminish our confidence. Our confidence in who we are as a people, our common identity. They want to diminish our confidence in our democratic principles and our institutions and processes. And so, for leaders to say, "Hey, well, the election might not be fair. It might be rigged or something." That's like playing right into their heads. It's being our own worst enemy.
General H.R. McMaster: (16:17)
And really, in 2016, and I think in this year in 2020, I don't think [inaudible 00:16:22] people care [inaudible 00:16:22]. I don't think he cared in 2016. In fact, in 2016, the Russians I think, were surprised as anybody that Donald Trump won. They had a whole campaign ready to go that said, "Hey, Hillary Clinton won because the election was rigged." And then they shifted it quite quickly because they started that campaign. And they realized, well Trump won. So they shifted it to that President Trump would have won the popular vote if it wasn't rigged.
General H.R. McMaster: (16:45)
And so what they're trying to do is sow doubts. Sow doubts about our democracy and no leader should give them space to do that. I think that it's just unwise, described Putin's campaign of disruption, disapprobation and denial. And you actually to combat it, you have to start in the opposite order. You have to get rid of his ability to deny it by pulling the curtain back when that activity, showing it's more fellow Americans, and that's the first step in inoculating ourselves against this really sophisticated campaign of political subversion.
Anthony Scaramucci: (17:20)
I think we're in agreement, we have internal and we have external threats. And so if you had to tick off some of the major national security threats for the United States, what would they be?
General H.R. McMaster: (17:32)
I think you got if we try at the top, Anthony. Ad the reason is, trying to tremendous resources and they are extremely well organized and determined to promote their authoritarian work into this model in a way that will make the world less free, less prosperous and less safe. And the party is driven by emotion and fear. Fear of losing their exclusive grip on power, fear of chaos. But also aspiration aspiration to, in Xi Jinping's words take center stage in the world. The way they're doing that is with a very sophisticated strategy.
General H.R. McMaster: (18:09)
And again, I use alliteration again of co-option, coercion and concealment. And their strategies aim to create short bile relationships, for example, across the world, and especially in the Indo-Pacific region in a way that will exclude the United States and others. I think what's really important for Americans to understand now is that, this isn't just a US, China problem. I think there's this tendency to personalize everything else around President Trump. Xi Jinping is not acting this way because Donald Trump is so mean.
General H.R. McMaster: (18:44)
Actually I think the Trump administration put into place at a very important and overdue shifted in our foreign policy towards China, the one of competition and recognizing China as a rival. And I think it's very important that wherever sworn in on January 20th, carry on that competitive approach.
Anthony Scaramucci: (19:04)
Well, at the same time, we can quibble about the style. But I do give the credit. I'm not going to demonize the president, whatever my disagreements are with him. I do give them credit for having good instincts as it relates to certain things related to China. But the president is also preaching something related to isolationism. And, we've been combating this for several hundred years. Obviously FDR had to combat it and 38, 39 and 40, he was vexed in terms of what to do. But he knew that America needed to get involved in the next global conflict. It's almost a prevention mechanism.
Anthony Scaramucci: (19:41)
General Mattis has said this to president Trump. I know you have said this to president Trump, that our position around the world is almost like a life insurance premium to prevent a catastrophe or a casualty insurance premium. This way we're there it'll prevent something from further getting heated. Do you think the president is right about his isolationist stance at this point in world history? Or where would you like to see our foreign policy?
General H.R. McMaster: (20:08)
Well, I think that this idea that our disengagement from complex challenges, oversees challenges that have big implications for security. It's a big mistake. And the areas in the book that I'm most critical of the Trump administration's policy and president Trump are areas in which he has replicated. And in some ways exceeded the flaws of the Obama administration, of course, to some of these problems sets. Afghanistan's bar breaking to me, Anthony. I think that it's not only regrettable and that will pay a price for it, but it's really reprehensible.
General H.R. McMaster: (20:39)
That we would partner really with the Taliban against the Afghan government. You'll partner with like this 5% of the people who've supported the Taliban against like the 95% of Afghans who want nothing to do with this brutal burgers organization. Because they lived off of the health of the Taliban from 1996 to 2001, they know what it's going to be like. So Americans might simply, again, we've been there almost 20 years. Like what are we doing? But as I lay out, it has not been a 20 year war. It's been one year war, 20 times over. It's been a war in which I think if we had deliberately set out to screw it up, we couldn't have done worse.
General H.R. McMaster: (21:19)
And I think that there is a way to partner with Afghans as part of a multinational effort and sustain very, very important counter-terrorist efforts there for a relatively low cost. But it is this drive to disengage that is a danger. I see the same kind of dynamic in the Middle East as well. And I'm not arguing, I don't think we should have like hundreds of thousands of troops there. This shouldn't be expensive, engagements, but it's really that sustained effort that enables our diplomatic efforts.
General H.R. McMaster: (21:52)
And it keeps us secure. If we learn anything from COVID, it ought to be problems that develop overseas. Once they reach our shores can only be dealt with at an exorbitant cost. Better to contain and deal with it abroad, than to let it recharge our shores.
Anthony Scaramucci: (22:12)
Listen, we agree. You say something in the book. I was just wondering if you could encapsulate it for our listeners and viewers about isolationism and about the potential crisis that could unfold as a result of a disengaged America around the world. I was wondering if you could encapsulate that force. I think it's a brilliant assessment of Afghanistan, and we'll also point out to people that please read the book because you go around the world literally.
Anthony Scaramucci: (22:39)
And it is a playbook and manual for exactly what's going on in the world and what America needs to do to respond to it. But let's stick on the isolationism for a second because lots of Americans are confused by this General McMaster. And I'd like them to hear it from you, why there's so much danger in isolation?
General H.R. McMaster: (22:58)
Well, first of all, it has been our Alliance system. It has been our Alliance together, military power that has prevented great power conflict for over 75 years now. And it's really hard as need to prove a negative. But I think it's a really good thing that we haven't had great power conflict for 75 years. And so, our Alliance system and Forward positioned US forces, not even a lot, but a significant number that integrate with our allies and partners. That's what gives you deterrence by denial. What that means is, you're convincing a potential enemy. In this case, you could say China and Russia powers on division lambast that they can't accomplish their objectives in the use of force.
General H.R. McMaster: (23:42)
And that's a good thing to prevent conflict obviously that would be devastated. In connection with jihadist terrorism, for example, that probably isn't going away, Anthony. It's going to be with us for multiple generations. What I read about is it was held this ISIS and Al-Qaeda alumni they're orders of magnitude larger than the Mujahideen alumni of the resistance to Soviet occupation to Afghanistan. And it was that Mujahideen alumni who committed mass murder in your home city, Anthony in New York on September 11th, 2001. And in Washington and over a field in Pennsylvania.
General H.R. McMaster: (24:19)
This is not a theoretical case. And we know that many other attacks in Europe were as a result of ISIS gaining strength when it controlled a landmass, the size of Britain. And so, the rise of ISIS didn't just happen. It happened because vice-president Biden called President Obama in 2011 from Iraq and said, "Thank you for allowing me to end this war." And of course, wars don't end when one side disengages. And we disengaged in a large measure diplomatically as well. What that resulted in is a return of war scale security and violence in Iraq, and set the conditions for ISIS to come back.
General H.R. McMaster: (24:59)
And so, just when you think the situation in Middle East can't get worse, it actually can. And it's our sustained engagement there that can create opportunities. Opportunities, I think such as those that you see now with giving the [inaudible 00:25:12]. Opportunities to isolate Iran, who is pouring fuel on this destructive sectarian civil war and exacerbating the humanitarian crisis associated with it.
Anthony Scaramucci: (25:26)
Listen, I was in Iraq in Baghdad in January of 2011. Our spring, as you remember, was bubbling up. General Austin, you remember General Lloyd Austin, he is one tall SOP. I felt like I needed still to talk to the guy, but.
General H.R. McMaster: (25:43)
Most of those big guys, it was Austin and Odierno [crosstalk 00:25:46].
Anthony Scaramucci: (25:47)
Ray is the tallest Italian I've ever met in my life, actually. I'm convinced that he's probably not Italian, but that's a whole other topic, but.
General H.R. McMaster: (26:00)
Also the both sport is a very handsome hairstyle out, I've noticed that.
Anthony Scaramucci: (26:04)
I remember that too. Of course, you have a very handsome hairstyle yourself H.R. We'll talk about that later. We'll talk about what we could do to help you there. But, I'm in Baghdad, it's January, 2011, General Austin, we ask him a question. Part of a Benz movement, the businesses, the extra national security. I say, "What should the troop level be?" He says 20,000. The Obama administration takes it down to zero. He says, "God forbid you can't do that because it'll lead to the rise of Daesh," also known as ISIS. So it plays right into what you're saying in the book. And it confirms that we need to de-politicize some of this stuff.
Anthony Scaramucci: (26:41)
But again, the American people, they need to be educated about this. And once they are, I think there'll be reaching a consensus decision closer to where you are. Let's talk about the president again for a second, because I was only there for 11 days, but we did have some fun together, you and I. Our interactions and with president Trump. How would you describe to the average person, your interactions with the president in discussing national security? Did he have a worldview? Was he being educated by your worldview? Was there a level of dogmatism or was there a level of flexibility? How would you describe those interactions?
General H.R. McMaster: (27:19)
Well Anthony, as you know, he's just reflexively contrarians, this is part of the style, and of course as a national security advisor, it's a unique position. It's a position of privilege and confidence because-
Anthony Scaramucci: (27:32)
Okay. But I'm going to stop you there. Because that was like some serious military language there with the reflectivity contrarian. So let me stop you because basically what you're saying is you'd tell him something and he'd want to do the exact opposite, which is "reflexively contrarian". And so, I just try to figure out what is that all about with the president, but go ahead. Reflexively contrarian.
General H.R. McMaster: (27:53)
He questions conventional wisdom. If you come in with the shiny course of action, and you say, "Hey, everybody agrees. This is the perfect thing for you to do. This is what you should do." That's not going to work. What I realized is, I could come up with the perfect process, the perfect course of action. We could do it. It would not be personally, but I could facilitate that from across the departments and agencies. But what we've needed to do, I felt, and I think this is true for any president, actually, Anthony, because I owed him multiple options.
General H.R. McMaster: (28:23)
I needed to give him a say in determining his foreign policy agenda and putting into place these policies and strategies. Anthony, I was only there for 13 months obviously, I can only speak to those months I was there. I think it worked in those 13 months, that approach of giving multiple options. Because what that allows you to do is to use, what are our goals? What are our objectives? As a way to evaluate those courses of action, you can assess them based on the degree to which they advance your interests, the degree of costs, the degree of risk and so forth.
General H.R. McMaster: (28:57)
And I think that produce good results in connection with the national security strategy. But also, as I mentioned, big shifts in foreign policy on Iran, in China and go on, in Venezuela, in Cuba. But that process works. I don't know what happened if our left. I'm not in a position to judge it. But I think one of my lessons from writing about the Vietnam period was that it was a disservice to Lyndon Johnson to tell Lyndon Johnson what Lyndon Johnson wanted to hear.
General H.R. McMaster: (29:29)
And I was determined, that I would not do that because it would be a disturbed to the president and the country. And, I think that's one of the aspects of how I approach my job that may have limited my shelf life, which I was at peace with. When I took the job, Anthony, I decided I was going to retire out of that job. It was in many ways a bonus round for me in 2017. I was thinking about retiring from active duty in 2017. So I would've had to start with you to continue serving, to continue serving the new president as national security advisor. I decided that moment when I'm done, I'm done and it's time for me to retire from our army as well.
Anthony Scaramucci: (30:09)
Well, it was also a bonus round for me, General. It was a little shorter bonus round. I'd have to calculate the number of MOOC's 13 months actually is. I have two last questions. I'm going to turn it over to John Darsie for questions from our audience. But, you write about in the book, these stationary islands that are being manufactured in the South China sea and parts of the far Eastern Pacific by the Chinese government. It's an encroachment on international waters. It could even be an encroachment on Japanese territory and other sovereigns in Asia. How serious should we be taking that threat? And what do you think that means for the US in terms of its national security?
General H.R. McMaster: (30:53)
Yes. Anthony, we should take it very seriously because I believe Xi Jinping thinks he's winning right now. He looks at us, he looks at the divisions in our society, sparked in large measure by the murder of George Floyd. He looks at our vitriolic partisan environment that we're in. The crises of a pandemic and the recession associated with it. And he always, he's a dictator. He's probably in an echo chamber saying, "Hey, you're on top. You're doing well." And he already believes that he had only a fleeting window of opportunity to realize the China dream, to take center stage.
General H.R. McMaster: (31:24)
And what you're seeing is aggression in the South China sea, as you mentioned, where he's destroyed complete ecosystems, by the way, to build these islands and militarize them. And if he succeeds, it will be the largest land grab, so to speak in history. But what he's also doing, he's also passing a national security law, there's regression progression of human freedom in Hong Kong. He is engaged in a campaign of cultural genocide in Shinchan. We are birth rates are down 60%. It's important. What's happening as over a million people are now cramped into concentration camps and he last week, Xi Jinping says, "Hey, I'm building some additions on to those concentration camps. I'm going to put more people in there for reeducation." But then you look at COVID-19, both war diplomacy, bludgeoning Indian soldiers to death on the Himalayan frontier.
General H.R. McMaster: (32:12)
The threats toward Taiwan, the threats towards Japan. It is a flashpoint. I think Taiwan is a flashpoint in the South China sea. And what I think all this shows you not to mention massive cyber attacks against us and against medical research facilities in the middle of the pandemic. This shows you, Hey, this isn't a US-China problem. This is a real-world China problem. And it's time for us to really focus on this threat and do our best to deter further aggression and convince the Chinese communist party leadership, Hey, you need to change your behavior or we're going to have to impose unacceptable costs on you economically in particular.
Anthony Scaramucci: (32:48)
I think it's a dour, but realistic assessment of what's going on. You write a lot about it in the book. I courage everybody to read the book. My last question, and I'm going to turn it over. You've got a great reading list. There are philosophers, scholars, military men, academics, there may even be a few hedge fund managers on your reading list. Tell me, who's influenced you the most in your career and your thought process?
General H.R. McMaster: (33:15)
Yes. A lot of people across my career. When I was with my mom, first of all, in terms of she instilled in me a sense of history. I think, the intellectual curiosity that I carried with me across my life. I rated that this book is to continuation of my self education in many ways. It's my Italian mom, Anthony by the way. And then, football coach/[crosstalk 00:33:42].
Anthony Scaramucci: (33:42)
That's one of the parts I like about you, H.R. I just want to point that out.
General H.R. McMaster: (33:48)
My football coach and it was also my history teacher in high school. My sponsors at West Point, both of whom were in the history department. One was also one of my rugby coaches at West Point and also a historian of US diplomatic history. They all inspired me. Casey Broward, who was the head of the history department at West Point. He helped me pick my topic on Vietnam. I had great professors, great professors at UNC Chapel Hill. Dick Cone as well, who's a wonderful man, was my advisor. The late Don Higginbotham, what a great guy. And you would love this guy. Great sense of humor and was a great historian. After I finished my exams, he said, "Congratulations, you now know more history than you will ever know."
General H.R. McMaster: (34:34)
And then of course many officers, influenced me in a profound way. My first battalion commander, Billy Jamie Gallon, who was, I think maybe bigger than Odierno. [inaudible 00:34:45] these guys was this huge, an amazing guy. African-American officer, which to be an armor battalion commander in the early '80s. Imagine with the changes we saw in our army, through the Vietnam period, post Vietnam period, a real charismatic leader. And I met so many leaders who exhibited strong qualities that I try to take from them.
General H.R. McMaster: (35:08)
And then of course you see some negative examples too. I would say that, across my career, John Atrazine is our ambassador and [inaudible 00:35:17] Raby now, that guy was great to me. Dave Patraeus, I think has always been tremendous. Martin Demson. We mentioned, Odierno Austin. The armies are family and I just think, young people, if you're listening to this, you joining our military is tremendously rewarding. I think because we have a smaller professional force, not as many Americans are familiar with the less tangible rewards of service. Being part of a team in which the man or woman next to you is willing to give everything, including their own lives for you.
General H.R. McMaster: (35:50)
And to be part of something that's bigger than yourself. And so, I admire these leaders who I mentioned, but I admired my soldiers. The younger generation gets hammered all the time. They're self-absorbed, they don't have attention spans, they don't understand the history. They're not patriotic. I'll tell you, if you want to see the best of our country, just meet some of our service men and women. They're extraordinary people. And they like what they're doing. They're bound together by an ethos. An ethos of self sacrifice and honor, and a sense of duty to one another and to our country.
General H.R. McMaster: (36:34)
And so, we we began talking earlier about the dangers of associating the military with political parties. We should never do that. And we should never associate the military with any sub identity in our country. When you're in combat and you've got bullets coming your way, you're not checking skin color, you're not checking religion or sexual orientation of the men or woman next to you. You're fighting together. And I think it's just a lesson we can learn these days, as divided as it seems we've become.
Anthony Scaramucci: (37:07)
Listen, I think it's a real lesson about the American military. I also think it's a lesson why the military is still considered one of the more trusted and more sacred institutions in our country. So I admire and appreciate all that General. I'm going to turn it over to John. We've got five or six minutes left to go in our SALT Talk, and he wants to pepper you with some questions.
General H.R. McMaster: (37:27)
All right.
John Darsie: (37:28)
In light of a general McMaster's comments about, how in the military there's a sense of cohesion that maybe doesn't exist in society and politics today. There's an organization called With Honor general that I don't know if you've ever been involved with. But, Rye Barcott who founded it as a friend of ours. Basically hos goals [crosstalk 00:37:45].
General H.R. McMaster: (37:45)
I know Rye, it's a great organization. Absolutely.
John Darsie: (37:47)
Yeah. Bringing more military men and women into the political realm, because when you get people who served beside each other in the battlefield, serving next to each other in the legislative branch of the government, you find a more collective purpose than you would otherwise, were today they're at each other's throat. So we always like to plug with honor, go donate. They support house races with veterans running in local districts. So we encourage everybody to see [crosstalk 00:38:12].
General H.R. McMaster: (38:12)
You have to propose by parts and legislation as part of the covenant you sign. Rye has done a great job of it. Thanks for bringing it up, John.
John Darsie: (38:21)
Yeah. Absolutely. So we talked earlier about how there's external threats and then there's internal threats. And what Russia has really done is tried to sow internal threats in our society, and they've frankly been pretty successful at it. The FBI recently foiled a plot from white supremacist militia groups to kidnap the governor of Michigan. They reportedly also were planning to kidnap the governor of Virginia, potentially there were talking about plans to do so. How do we fix that problem? Let's say Trump's gone, whether it's in four years, or it's in four months or whatever it may be until inauguration. How do we fix that problem and how do we fight back against Russian or another country's disinformation aim to sow internal division?
General H.R. McMaster: (39:07)
Well, I think the first thing we have to recognize is, we have to take this very seriously, this polarization in our society on all extremes. And what I think it's important to recognize is the Russians don't create these divisions. We create the divisions and they exploited those divisions. Russia's efforts to divide us on issues of race. The Soviet union's go back to the 1920s, but Hey, now they have new tools available. They have social media that already by the algorithms that dominate social media drive us further and further apart from each other because the companies keep more and more advertising revenue, which is more and more clicks. Which is, Hey, let me show you even more extreme content to get you to click even more. And then we have the issues of polarization of our political leads and our media.
General H.R. McMaster: (39:57)
How did it become this way? Where if you need a one direction politically, you watch one cable news ditch. You lean the other direction, you watch another one. We just had a presidential town halls yesterday, two separate. That was some people aren't hearing both sides. They're not hearing a civil meaningful debate. And I think that even our mainstream media, they're destroying themselves over either support for it or hatred for Donald Trump or so. It's crazy what's happened. And so, we all have to come together as Americans and be part of the solution for this. And I think we have to be intolerant of extremist, like those that were plotting against the governor.
General H.R. McMaster: (40:41)
And we have to recognize though that, our work's not going to be done easily here. That kind of extreme view is based on ignorance I believe fundamentally. Ignorance of our history and who we are, ignorance of our democratic process and ignorance of your fellow Americans. These are people who hate because they don't even know the people who are the object of their hatred. I just think we have to we have to do everything we can in our communities and universities, in schools, and in athletic organizations. Let's get people together. Let's emphasize a common identity.
General H.R. McMaster: (41:23)
I think history plays a big role in this, John. I do think that in many ways, our young people have been subjected to what I would say, and this might sound extreme to some people, but essentially a curriculum of self-loathing. That really portrays America as the problem in the world. And this is associated with the new left interpretation of history. I think we should be able to come together around, you'll not a contrived happy view of history, but a recognition of the nobility of this radical idea of our revolution, that sovereignty buys neither with kangaroo parliament, but with the people.
General H.R. McMaster: (42:00)
We could also be disappointed though, that our bill of rights and the elbow rights in our inner declaration of independence did not apply to all Americans. And it was only until our most destructive war, the 4 million people were emancipated from slavery. We can celebrate that, but also be disappointed at the failure of reconstruction. The rise of Jim Crow and the KU Klux Klan, but then also celebrate the civil rights movement and the dismantlement of the Jorah segregation and inequality of opportunity. But still recognize, Hey it's a work in progress as our founders knew it would be.
General H.R. McMaster: (42:34)
That our democracy had to be constantly nurtured. So I just think in Battlegrounds, I quote Richard Wharton, a philosopher, he said that, "National pride is to nations. What self-respect is to individuals and necessary ingredient for self improvement." And I think in many ways we have to make a concerted effort to come together as Americans and restore pride in who we are.
John Darsie: (43:04)
Well, general, we're going to leave it there. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us again, this is another interview we feel like could have gone on for another three hours. And we apologize to everybody who asked questions that we weren't necessarily able to get to. But you offered such a sweeping a great analysis of everything going on domestically and in terms of our foreign policy. We're very grateful for your time. Anthony, do you have a final word for General McMaster. And thank you so much for being nice to Anthony and giving him that nice farewell party when he didn't last longer than a carton of milk in the White House.
Anthony Scaramucci: (43:32)
The guy's getting fired General. I just want to make sure you just say hello to him. Maybe you'll see him out of the Hoover Institute. I just want to know if you're going to use the same picture when the children's version of the book comes out? Just a little intimidating there General. Okay. You may want to tone it down for the kids. Okay.
General H.R. McMaster: (43:50)
I'll work on my softer side [crosstalk 00:43:52].
Anthony Scaramucci: (43:54)
All right. But in all seriousness, our thank you so much. We got to get you to one of our live events, hopefully soon once the pandemic ends. My regards to the family, General. And we'll see you after the election, I hope.
General H.R. McMaster: (44:06)
Thanks so much. And thanks for this great forum too. Thanks. Take care.
Anthony Scaramucci: (44:10)
Great to have you on, sir.