“With Joe Biden, you have somebody like Harry Truman who knows how Washington works.”
Former Congressman Joe Scarborough (R-Fla.) is co-host of MSNBC’s "Morning Joe" alongside Mika Brzezinski. "Morning Joe" starts each weekday conducting interviews with top newsmakers and discussing the day's headlines. In 2016, Joe, joined by co-host Mika, was inducted into the Cable Hall of Fame.
President Franklin Roosevelt met with his vice president, Harry Truman, only two times while in office. Upon FDR’s death with World War II still ongoing, Truman faced some of the biggest decisions in American history. He made the fateful decision to drop two Atomic bombs on Japan in an effort to prevent a prolonged war. In the years following, as the world was reshaping, he introduced The Truman Doctrine which stated that the US would intervene on behalf of any country under the threat of communism. Truman and his advisors also played central roles in establishing the global multilateral institutions like NATO that remain vital to this day. “They put together a structure, an analytical construct for foreign policy that we have followed for 75 years.”
Truman and his advisors like General George Marshall and Dean Acheson knew they needed to learn from the mistakes of post-WWI US foreign policy. They understood that its move towards isolationism ultimately produced disastrous results. “[The US] refused to get involved in the League of Nations, refused to stay engaged in Europe which created a void, which allowed for the rise of Adolf Hitler.”
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SPEAKER
Joe Scarborough
Co-Host
MSNBC’s Morning Joe
MODERATOR
Anthony Scaramucci
Founder & Managing Partner
SkyBridge
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
John Darsie: (00:06)
Hello everyone and welcome back to SALT Talks on a rainy day here in New York. Our guest today is sitting in sunny Florida, he's figured something out that the rest of us haven't.
John Darsie: (00:16)
But I'm John Darsie I'm the managing director of SALT which is a global thought leadership forum at the intersection of finance, technology, and public policy. SALT Talks are a digital interview series that we launched during the pandemic with leading investors, creators, and thinkers.
John Darsie: (00:32)
Really what our goal is during these SALT Talks is to replicate the experience that we provide at our global conference, the Salt Conference. And that's to provide a window into the mind of subject matter experts as well as provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future.
John Darsie: (00:48)
And we're very excited today to welcome Joe Scarborough to SALT Talks. A former congressman, Joe Scarborough is today the co-host of MSNBC's Morning Joe, alongside his wife Mika Brzezinski.
John Darsie: (01:00)
Morning Joe starts each day conducting interviews with top newsmakers and discussing the day's headlines. In 2016 Joe was joined by co-host Mika and they were both inducted into the Cable Hall of Fame.
John Darsie: (01:14)
Joe was named to the prestigious TIME 100, the list of the world's most influential people and Vanity Fair named both Joe and Mika to their 2012 list of top media power players, and their influence in the media has only grown since then.
John Darsie: (01:29)
In addition to his television career, Joe is a two-time New York Times best-selling author. His work Rome Wasn't Burnt in a Day predicted the collapse of the Republican majority and the U.S. economy due to his party's reckless spending.
John Darsie: (01:43)
His second work, The Last Best Hope: Restoring Conservatism and America's Promise draws on the forgotten genius of conservatism to offer a roadmap for the movement and the country.
John Darsie: (01:55)
Joe's most recent book, Saving Freedom: Truman, the Cold War and the Fight for Western Civilization recounts the historic forces that moved Truman toward his country's long twilight struggle against Soviet communism.
John Darsie: (02:08)
Truman's triumph over personal and political struggles that confronted him following his ascension to the presidency is an inspiring tale of American leadership, of fierce determination, bi-partisan unity, and courage in the face of the rising Soviet threat.
John Darsie: (02:24)
A reminder that Joe served as a member of Congress from 1994 to 2001 and while in office he was a member of the Judiciary, Armed Services, Oversight, and National Security committees.
John Darsie: (02:35)
A reminder for everybody tuning in today if you have any question for Joe during today's SALT Talk you can enter them in the Q&A box at the bottom of your video screen on Zoom and hosting today's talk is Anthony Scaramucci the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge Capital, a global alternative investment firm.
John Darsie: (02:52)
Anthony is also the chairman of Salt and he did also serve in government but for only 11 days as opposed to the seven years that Joe spent in Congress.
Anthony Scaramucci: (03:00)
Had to bring it up. I'm telling you, I mean Joe it's bonus season and he knows he could get fired and we're in a pandemic. He knows he could get his bonus cut. He's got to bring up the fact that I got fired after 11 days right?
Joe Scarborough: (03:14)
Yeah, I'll tell you I almost re-tweeted it but I decided not to. When somebody said we are only two Scaramucci's away.
Anthony Scaramucci: (03:23)
I think you do. I got the whole Scaramucci shot clock going right now. We're 51 days away Joseph so you know we'll see what happens here. We'll talk about him as well but I really want to talk about the book and I want to hold it up for everybody.
Anthony Scaramucci: (03:40)
Saving Freedom by Joe Scarborough. I read the book over the weekend, it is a pretty quick read by the way. It took me about five and a half hours to read it. I did listen to some of the audiotape by Joe Scarborough as well and Joe I love the book for a number of different reasons but the main one is it draws a lot about where we were as a society 80 or so years ago, 75 years ago and where we are today as a society.
Anthony Scaramucci: (04:11)
And basically my summation, there was a lot of very, very good human beings that were willing to work together that understood that a bi-partisan commitment to peace would lead to global prosperity not just for the United States but for the world.
Anthony Scaramucci: (04:26)
So there were a lot of bold decisions made and so my first question to you though before we get into the book is tell us something that we can't find on Wikipedia about Joe Scarborough. You know you're a pretty well-researched guy so what would we learn today about you that nobody really knows?
Joe Scarborough: (04:49)
Oh, man. It's a tough question. I'll say this just so you can laugh, it's the truth but nobody would believe it so I've never even bothered saying it publicly. I hate being on TV. Mika loves it. See you're laughing. I see him laughing at me.
Joe Scarborough: (05:11)
Mika got into TV news when she was 22, 23, and absolutely loves it. If she weren't on TV it would be like she was missing her right arm. I do it bluntly because it pays pretty well and also people seem to think they still want to hear what I have to say but I hate being on TV.
Joe Scarborough: (05:40)
I've never once and this is so unlike me because I'm sure you guys are all this way, when I do something I go back and I look at it. I examine it. I see where I make mistakes, I see how I can be better and I really am my toughest critic.
Joe Scarborough: (05:55)
I've never done that with television because I can't stand to see myself on TV because the few times I have I go, "Why does anybody watch me?" So that's one thing.
Joe Scarborough: (06:07)
The other thing is favorite show, television show remains Peaky Blinders on Netflix. If you haven't seen Peaky Blinders make sure you see it.
Anthony Scaramucci: (06:20)
Yeah, that is a sensational mini-series. It's about the U.K. mob, right? Is that it?
Joe Scarborough: (06:28)
Yeah.
Anthony Scaramucci: (06:28)
Yeah, U.K. mob.
Joe Scarborough: (06:30)
Yeah, guys post World War I that left the war shell shocked and started a gang in Birmingham. But Anthony you don't believe that I don't like being on television do you?
Anthony Scaramucci: (06:40)
No, I get it but look you know the most dangerous place in the world Joe is between me and a television camera. So I would be racing Mika for the camera, right? We all know that right? I mean there's Fallujah and there's that zone between me and the camera, so I get it.
Joe Scarborough: (06:56)
Exactly.
Anthony Scaramucci: (06:57)
Tell Mika I can totally identify with her. Let's go to the Truman Doctrine though because what's fascinating about the book is it's a bubbling up process right? It's not like we look back through history, it was oh the Truman Doctrine, these guys sat around in a room and they came up with the Truman Doctrine, but that's not really how it happened right? It happened through a bubbling up process, a little bit of George Kennan, some of Dean Acheson, some of Harry Truman himself. Tell us how the Truman Doctrine evolved before President Truman made his speech to the joint session of the Congress.
Joe Scarborough: (07:35)
So the Truman Doctrine first of all for those who obviously haven't read the book yet, the Truman Doctrine was when Harry Truman made it clear, it was sort of a follow-up on the Monroe Doctrine where President Monroe said anybody that comes into our hemisphere, you're basically asking for war. Stay out of our hemisphere.
Joe Scarborough: (07:58)
But the Truman Doctrine, it was Harry Truman and the rest of the United States declaring that we would get involved for any democratic country who was under threat from the Soviet Union even though we didn't use the Soviet's name specifically it was very clear what they were talking about.
Joe Scarborough: (08:20)
It came out of a time where Harry Truman had an extraordinary few years. He has been selected in 1944 as FDR's vice president. FDR knew he was going to die. Truman knew FDR was going to die. In fact, FDR famously said to Harry Truman, "Hey don't fly on planes during the campaign because one of us has to stay alive."
Joe Scarborough: (08:45)
Truman also his friends told him FDR was dying and he said he knew it and was scared as hell to be president but knew he'd have to be. After his first cabinet meeting as president of the United States Stimson took him aside and said, "Hey listen I've got something to tell you." And actually revealed to Harry Truman for the first time details about the Manhattan Project.
Joe Scarborough: (09:11)
FDR had been... There's no other way to put it, he'd been extremely reckless. He only met with Harry Truman two times when Truman was vice president. Didn't have him read in on anything. So when we have people obviously in the Democratic party, some of the Republican Party have been in the press worried about this transition process, we've seen a transition process even worse than the one we're going through right now.
Joe Scarborough: (09:38)
And that was when FDR passed the presidency through death onto Harry Truman. But Truman was an extraordinarily quick learner and made the right decisions to help end the war against Hitler in Europe. Then win the war in the Pacific and though the decision was controversial, dropping the atomic bombs, I think most historians recognize he saved one to two million lives. American and Japanese lives by doing it and shortened the war by about a year and a half.
Joe Scarborough: (10:09)
But soon after that, Winston Churchill went to Westminster College in Missouri and made his proclamation about the iron curtain that was descending across central and eastern Europe. And in February of 1947, the British alerted the United States that they were a spent empire, they were exhausted.
Joe Scarborough: (10:37)
Yes, they may have saved western civilization in 1940 in the Battle of Britain but by '45 they were completely exhausted and had no money to continue supporting Greece and Turkey and other countries that were under threat from Stalin and the Soviet Union.
Joe Scarborough: (10:56)
So Truman had a decision to make and he acted very quickly and he got his people together, the best and the brightest people. General George Marshall who was his secretary of state but also was really the architect of winning World War II.
Joe Scarborough: (11:13)
You had Dean Acheson who you brought up. Dean Acheson was the undersecretary of state who really was the architect of not only the Truman Doctrine but also of NATO and also of all the things Truman did over the next few years to contain the Soviet Union.
Joe Scarborough: (11:27)
George Kennan who wrote the Long Telegram on containment. Averell Herriman who was ambassador to the Soviet Union who knew so much about the Soviet Union because he had actually first been to Russia in 1899 when Nicholas II was Czar. So Truman was wise enough to surround himself with the wise men as Walter Issacson and Evan Thomas called his advisors.
Joe Scarborough: (11:55)
And then together your right they put together a structure. An analytical construct for foreign policy that we have followed for 75 years. Through nine presidents, both Republican and Democrat alike. The first president to divert from that is the current occupant of the White House. A guy that you and I know pretty darn well, Donald Trump.
Anthony Scaramucci: (12:20)
You know it's fascinating. There's some great stories in here. One of the stories is Truman not wanting to come to the phone when he's being told he's going to be the vice president. We're dropping Henry Wallace from the ticket. He was more left-leaning than Harry Truman.
Anthony Scaramucci: (12:36)
Harry was told he was told he was the second Missouri compromise, which you write about. You also put in the back of the book which I would encourage people to read, the top-secret memorandum from the state department discussing what happened with the United Kingdom and the fact that the United Kingdom was running out of money and the U.S. needed to step up.
Anthony Scaramucci: (12:57)
But I think the thing that really moved me, Joe, about the book was Arthur Vandenberg who's not well known to contemporary Americans and I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about the great Republican Senator from Michigan and his relationship with Harry Truman and how important that was to the origination of the Truman Doctrine.
Joe Scarborough: (13:20)
Yeah. You know I'm so glad you brought up Arthur Vandenberg because the Truman Doctrine was a success but it was a bi-partisan success. And I know it's en vogue to be pessimistic. We've heard time and again that our institutions were not going to hold up to whatever threats that they were under.
Joe Scarborough: (13:43)
I always knew the institutions would hold up. I always said the institutions would hold up. I remember back when Ronald Regan was president, the head of the history department at the University of Alabama, I was a huge Regan fan. I said, "What do you think about Ronald Regan?" And he was quiet for a second and he said, "Well I think America's strong enough to even survive eight years of Ronald Regan."
Joe Scarborough: (14:06)
And I sat there horrified because I loved Regan but it was the first time I thought hey wait a second, people who respect each other, who like each other can have completely different views about this country and the best way to move forward.
Joe Scarborough: (14:24)
So I always knew the institutions would hold and I also am optimistic now. People are saying that there's no way Washington can ever work. There's no way Washington can ever be fixed. Listen, I think with Joe Biden you have somebody like Harry Truman who knows how Washington works.
Joe Scarborough: (14:48)
Who built up friendships and relationships in the United States Senate and have built the relationships with Democrats and Republicans alike and with Arthur Vandenberg you actually had a Republican from Michigan who had opposed FDR and Harry Truman every step of the way on domestic matters.
Joe Scarborough: (15:09)
He was a dyed in the wool isolationist for most of his political career. But he and Harry Truman built a great relationship and both of them understood that the United States couldn't make the same mistake that it made after World War I.
Joe Scarborough: (15:28)
And after World War I three million Americans were in uniform. 114,000 were killed in combat and yet the Americans came back home and once again reverted to isolationism. Refused to get involved in the League of Nations, refused to stay engaged in Europe which created a void, which allowed for the rise of Adolf Hitler.
Joe Scarborough: (15:53)
Arthur Vandenberg understood that they couldn't repeat the same mistake after World War II. So Truman and Vandenberg built this great relationship but here's the thing about building bipartisan relationships in Washington D.C. they actually take work.
Joe Scarborough: (16:14)
I mean there was a reason when I was in Congress and I was considered one of the most conservative members of Congress. I was a small-government conservative. People in my own party thought I was too rad when it came to balancing the budget.
Joe Scarborough: (16:31)
But when I came to the chamber I always went to the democratic side of the chamber and I sat down with Democrats, I sat down with Liberals. I worked with them because I knew I had to figure out a way to forge compromises on house bills.
Joe Scarborough: (16:45)
Harry Truman and Vandenberg understood that as well and they had a great relationship and it wasn't just between those to. It was also their staff members. At the end of every day, Walter Isaacson recounted in the wise men how Dean Acheson's staff members and Harry Truman's staff members at the end of the day would go and drive-by Vandenberg's townhouse in Washington D.C and sit around and have drinks.
Joe Scarborough: (17:13)
And they would keep Vandenberg updated with what Harry Truman and the White House had been doing that day. They were in constant communication and they got them engaged in the Truman Doctrine so they felt like they actually had ownership of it.
Joe Scarborough: (17:30)
That's why at the end when the votes were counted most Republicans sided with Harry Truman including Robert Taft, Mr. Republican who as you know was one of the most hardcore isolationists in the United States Senate at the time.
Anthony Scaramucci: (17:47)
Well yeah, I was going to bring up Robert Taft, obviously the son of President Taft. But he moved all of these people, so I guess one of the questions that I have is actually coming from someone who I'm very close to in Washington asking who is the Vandenberg? If Joe Biden is the Harry Truman, Joe who is the Vandenberg of the Republican Party? Or is there not a Vandenberg?
Joe Scarborough: (18:14)
Well, I think we are actually seeing more of a centrist coalition starting to form in the Senate. The media love to talk about how conservative had gotten when conservative members of the Republican Party were getting elected to Senate.
Joe Scarborough: (18:32)
The story they didn't tell was how liberal, how progressive Democratic senators had become. There was a hollowing out of the center when you started having Democrats from red states lose their races and suddenly you had progressives on the left, you had conservatives on the right.
Joe Scarborough: (18:50)
But what we see now after the 2020 election is... Well first of all we saw the American people deliver a very clear message to Washington and that message was we don't trust either of you. We're going to elect a Democratic president because we're just exhausted by Donald Trump but we're not going to turn the keys over to the Democratic congress.
Joe Scarborough: (19:16)
So we're going to actually have a system of checks and balances. So that's what you're having and you also see it in the Senate where you now have in Arizona, two Democratic senators who are going to be more moderate because they're in a Republican state.
Joe Scarborough: (19:36)
You have a former governor of Colorado, Governor Hickenlooper who's also going to be a more moderate, pro-market Democrat. You have out of West Virginia, you have Joe Manchin who maybe basically the bane of progressive's existence in the United States Senate but there's another guy that's going to hold the middle ground in the Senate.
Joe Scarborough: (20:01)
Look on the Republican's side. You have Susan Collins in Maine who won her state by nine points, which was really incredible when you think about the fact Joe Biden won the state of Maine by nine points as well. So Susan Collins has every reason to sit down and make a deal with Joe Biden.
Joe Scarborough: (20:23)
Lisa Murkowski has already said she's going to do that. Has already said she's going to support Joe Biden's selections to the cabinet as long as they're not too extreme. Mitt Romney, you have Mitt there, a guy that you know very well and I know very well.
Joe Scarborough: (20:39)
So you've got six, seven, eight people that are going to be centrists who regardless of which candidates win in Georgia, who are going to find a middle ground. So you may not just have one Vandenberg you may have a series of Vandenbergs and also I have a prediction. It may be a long shot but I've known this guy since 1994. I think Lindsey Graham is actually going to be looking for opportunities to strike deals with Joe Biden as well.
Joe Scarborough: (21:18)
He's safe for another six years in South Carolina. He's a guy that was one of John McCain's closest allies and I think he's a guy who will do deals with Joe Biden so long as they're moderate.
Anthony Scaramucci: (21:38)
There's a passage in the book toward the end in the House Divided chapter which I actually highlighted and it talks about the press and it's President Truman, Joe talking about the press and I'm just going to read the first sentence and take you there. "I want to commend the press." He's saying. He's complimenting them on the manner in which they explain the program.
Anthony Scaramucci: (22:03)
The program to help Turkey and Greece which was the original concepts around the Truman Doctrine and basically say that he wanted to emphasize that it was important for the press to explain this type of legislation to the citizens.
Anthony Scaramucci: (22:19)
So now I want to fast forward to where we are now with President Trump's relationship with the press. Do you think that that's repairable? Do you think that we can get back to that sort of symphony between the government and the press and the press holding the government accountable without the government being so upset about that level of accountability?
Joe Scarborough: (22:41)
I think so. I think there have been elections where you look and you see where the media has been much tougher on one candidate than another candidate. You have a lot of Democrats that are still kicking me around because they think that we were too tough on Hillary and her emails.
Joe Scarborough: (23:01)
Obviously, Trump supporters can look at the press coverage and see that obviously Donald Trump was treated much more tough than Joe Biden was. I've had friends calling me up and saying, "Well why aren't you talking about Joe Biden's position on minimum wage?" Or something like that.
Joe Scarborough: (23:17)
I say, "Well its kind of hard to get there when Donald Trump is telling his attorney general to arrest Joe Biden two weeks before the election." There was always so much being thrown at the wall and Donald Trump wanted us talking about him. That's why he was always, you know it was shock and awe 24/7.
Joe Scarborough: (23:38)
I think you're going to have Joe Biden who is sort of that from the old school being much more respectful of the media. One thing though that he needs to understand that I think sometimes Democrats don't understand as well as I say we Republicans, I used to be a Republican. Is Republicans never go into the White House expecting to get a fair shot from the press because they're never going to get a fair shot from the press.
Joe Scarborough: (24:07)
I'm watching a documentary on Showtime right now on the Regans and I found out that because I support small-government I'm for trillionaires and I'm a racist. It's always biased against small government conservatives. The media is always... They don't understand. Most members of the media don't culturally understand what makes people conservatives.
Joe Scarborough: (24:31)
That said, I think the Clintons, I think the Obama's were always shocked when they got easier treatments during the campaigns but then they got into the White House and found out that the White House press corps was going to tough on them too. So I think the Bidens and the Biden team is going to see that press is going to hold them accountable, going to be very tough.
Joe Scarborough: (24:58)
But again, Joe Biden's old school and so he's going to be respectful to the press and his view toward the media reminds me of Alan Simpson who used to be Wyoming's Republican senator and I remember Simpson early on in my career, we were flying back to Washington together on the plane and he said, "Boy here's the deal. You may not like them but when the media calls, always return their damn call. Do it the same day and just put up with it. Let them know that you're there."
Joe Scarborough: (25:36)
And I followed that advice and it was great advice. I mean there's a natural tension between the press and the presidency. Harry Truman understood that. Joe Biden understands that. Ronald Regan understood that. But you got to deal with them and hopefully, you don't resort to using terms that Joseph Stalin used against his political opponents. You don't call them enemies of the people.
Anthony Scaramucci: (26:04)
You mentioned that you're a former Republican, what do you think the future is for the Republican Party in the aftermath? Let's start on January 21st. Where do you think the Republican Party's going Joe?
Joe Scarborough: (26:18)
Well, I'm far more pessimistic about the Republican Party than most. I think a lot of people think the Republican Party can bounce right back. When I say demographics is destiny, whenever I say that people get shocked and stunned and greatly saddened by it.
Joe Scarborough: (26:33)
It's just the reality. Demographics is destiny. I used to say that as it related to social security and Medicare because I was worried about the explosive growth of entitlement programs where you said, "Have 15 people working in their 50s for every one person on social security." Then we had three people working for every one person on social security and Medicare because of demographics.
Joe Scarborough: (26:54)
Soon it's going to be two people working for every one person on social security and Medicare. Those numbers don't add up. So that's how I used to talk about demographics is destiny. Now, when I look at the electoral map I started saying four or five years ago, look at the electoral map, look at the demographic changes and expect states in the sun belt like Georgia, Texas, and Arizona to start going blue.
Joe Scarborough: (27:17)
I didn't expect that to happen in 2020. I expected that to really start happening in 2024 but I think because of some of the extreme things that have been going on over the past several years we've already seen Georgia and Arizona go blue. I don't think they're going to go back, go red again for quite some time.
Joe Scarborough: (27:40)
Florida's actually become more solidly red which has been a real surprise but Texas let's just talk about demographics. In Texas, John Kornan said nine Hispanic babies are being born for every white, Caucasian baby that's being born in the state of Texas right now.
Joe Scarborough: (28:01)
You look at the numbers, compare, I brought up Regan my God I think 75, 80% of Americans were white when Ronald Regan was president. It's 60% now. Those demographic numbers change and Donald Trump okay great, Donald Trump got 12% of the black vote. Big deal, he still lost 88% of the black vote.
Joe Scarborough: (28:24)
If Republicans keep running around cheering about losing nine out of 10 votes that shows you why the bad situation they're in. And as far as Hispanics go, Republicans are bragging about getting 33% of the Hispanic vote. Anthony, you remember what George W. Bush got of the Hispanic vote in 2004, 45%.
Joe Scarborough: (28:42)
So the numbers are going to keep breaking the Democrat's way and I think unfortunately Republicans didn't listen to the voters after 2012. I remember going to a national review post mortem and everyone was talking about what needed to be done to get the Republican Party's arms around the demographic changes.
Joe Scarborough: (29:11)
I remember George W. Bush telling us in Congress in 1999 and Carl Rowe saying, "Hey y'all need to get right with Hispanics." And he was right. We did and instead Republicans spent the past four years doing whatever they could to offend people of color and even if Trump picked up one or two percentage points there, overall the demographic wave is going to overtake them unless they completely change their approach to voter outreach.
Anthony Scaramucci: (29:45)
So I want you to channel the wise men in this book, wise men and women, and I want you to be the policy wonk of 2020 and 2021. What does the world need from the United States in terms of engagement? What does the world need from the United States in terms of a reset? If there were a Biden Doctrine as an example, that could help re-engineer the world and set it on a course.
Anthony Scaramucci: (30:16)
Frankly, the Truman Doctrine set the world on a course of great peace and great global prosperity. It was uncertain at the time and it took 40 years before we brought down the Berlin wall but what would we need right now Joe?
Joe Scarborough: (30:31)
Well, the first thing we have to do is re-engage with our democratic allies. That's priority number one. We have to re-engage in a positive way with Canada. We have to reengage yes with Mexico an extraordinarily important trading partner. But we have to reengage with Germany, with France, with Britain.
Joe Scarborough: (30:54)
Rebuild that special relationship. I think we can do it. Reengage with NATO in an aggressive way. I'm optimistic that that's going to be the easiest part of what lies ahead for Joe Biden because I think these are countries, these democratic countries need the United States.
Joe Scarborough: (31:18)
And I will say too there's a part of me that is glad that over the past four years some of our allies that said that the United States needed to back off a little bit understand what an indispensable country we are. We still are the indispensable power. The indispensable country in this world.
Joe Scarborough: (31:39)
So the first thing we need to do is we need to reconnect in a strong, positive way with our allies. The second thing we need to do is we need to look at what is for better or worse going to be the most important relationship for this country over the next 40 years. We have got to have a sane, rational approach to our relationship with China and yes, Barack Obama in his biography said that perhaps he was a little too easy on China in some areas but that said, we do not want to get locked into a second cold war.
Joe Scarborough: (32:24)
You figure out the issue. Whether you want to talk about the economy, whether you want to talk about the environment, whether you want to talk about human rights, whether you want to talk about global stability. The United States and China are whether we like it or not, we're going to be the two global powers dominating the world stage for the next 30, next 40 years.
Joe Scarborough: (32:49)
So we're going to have to figure out a way to yes be tough with China but at the same time, be engaged with China. Have a rational relationship and not one that keeps them guessing and keeps the rest of the world guessing. So that's the second thing we need to do.
Joe Scarborough: (33:04)
The third thing we need to do is we've got to figure out exactly how we're going to address Russia in the coming years. We've had three presidents now that have miscalculated badly when it came to Vladimir Putin. Of course George W. Bush saying that he'd looked into the eyes of Vladimir Putin and seen his soul and gave his endorsement.
Joe Scarborough: (33:32)
Then with Barack Obama we obviously had him talking about having Hillary Clinton talking about the reset. Then with Donald Trump well it's hard to say exactly what Donald Trump's relationship was with Vladimir Putin but it is Russia's best interest and it is in the United State's best interest for Russia to get themselves out of the corner.
Joe Scarborough: (33:59)
We're not going to be able to do it with carrots. I don't know that sticks alone are going to help but this is a guy who invaded Georgia under George W. Bush. Invaded Ukraine under Barack Obama and we need to figure out a way forward with Russia and I think again it's not going to be easy, it's going to take diplomacy a lot of hard work but I think we can get there.
Joe Scarborough: (34:30)
And finally, we've got to figure out what we want to be when we grow up regarding trade. What kind of trading partner do we want to be with not only Europe but the rest of the world and for God's sake, we need to reexamine TPP and get re-engaged there.
Anthony Scaramucci: (34:47)
Yeah, obviously I was a big fan of TPP even when I was on the campaign with then Mr. Trump. He would go ballistic on you if you tried to explain to him the benefits of TPP and why that was going to help us contain China and make us more competitive and more powerful in the Pacific but that's for another day. I want to turn it over to John Darsie who's got a ton of questions. We've got great audience engagement, Joe. I'm on that self-promotional as you know right, so I'm not going to promote the book by putting it in front of everybody's face see. Look at that.
Joe Scarborough: (35:21)
I love it. Thank you so much.
Anthony Scaramucci: (35:23)
You know it's a phenomenal book. I really enjoyed reading it and it's a time in our country where we should really look back and think about these men and women that brought themselves together despite whatever their policy differences were, philosophical or otherwise they knew how important it was to progress the United States and put it in a position in the world where it couldn't be isolationists and it had to engage. But with that, John I'm going to leave it over to you.
John Darsie: (35:51)
Joe if you have a communications director at Morning Joe and they go on vacation for 10 days or two weeks and you need Anthony to fill in he's doing a great job of promoting your book. So just keep that in mind.
Joe Scarborough: (36:02)
I love it.
Anthony Scaramucci: (36:04)
Joe, I got to tell you my contract has to be for 12 days, Joe. I got to beat my last record. I just want to make sure you know that, okay.
Joe Scarborough: (36:10)
Much longer than that my friend. Much longer.
John Darsie: (36:14)
Exactly. But we have a question about, you know Trump is obviously still going through the motions of fighting the election results and we have an audience member who's curious about your opinion as somebody who knows him and has spoken with him a lot over the years about whether he legitimately believes that he was robbed of this election or this is all just part of his shtick to maintain some level of enthusiasm for whether it be Trump TV or a future political run.
Joe Scarborough: (36:37)
You know and I call him Donald just because that's what I've known him as for so many years. But Donald knows what he's doing. He always knows what he's doing. I remember one time calling him up during the Judge Curiel controversy back in 2016 and I said, "Donnie, you can't say that about a judge who is an American."
Joe Scarborough: (37:08)
He goes, "He's Mexican. He's Mexican." I said, "No, no, no. He was born in Indiana." He goes, "No, no, Joe you're wrong." And Anthony knows, I go, "Donald, Donald, Donald. Who are you talking to here? Okay, I'm not blanking stupid. Who are you talking to." And he got quiet for a second and he started chuckling, and he goes, "Okay he's American but still."
Joe Scarborough: (37:31)
So first of all he doesn't want to be seen as a loser. He's always worried about what's next and you think about this guy, I've always called him a day trader but I think Maggie Haberman with the New York Times has it best, where Donald Trump has spent his entire life just trying to survive the next 10 minutes. That's how he lives, that's how he thinks and so right now he's just trying to survive the next 10 minutes and trying to get past the embarrassment as he said of being one of the few Republicans on the national stage to lose.
Joe Scarborough: (38:08)
And I also, listen, I don't think he's going to do Trump TV because it's too much work. I think he's going to try to figure out how to make quick money, fast money, easy money by trading on his name and whatever else he can trade-in. But I think he'll talk about running in 2024, I'm very skeptical that he'd actually do that.
John Darsie: (38:34)
So that's sort of a good segue to the next question that I want to ask you is how large do you think he'll loom within the Republican Party over the next four years? There's different theories about whether he's going to continue to be the kingmaker in the party or whether his influence is going to wane and you're going to see new leaders emerge in the party and less of an emphasis on Trumpism and demographics being destiny you're going to find voices that embrace the idea of broadening the tent rather than the last gasp of some white grievance that helped push him to victory.
Joe Scarborough: (39:05)
Yeah, I mean it's a white grievance party right now. I can't believe I'm saying that about my former Republican Party because I was so resentful and felt grievance when people would say that about the Republican Party but that's where Donald Trump took the Republican Party over the past four years and my God, four years from now he's going to be even further away.
Joe Scarborough: (39:23)
They're going to be even further away from majority if they move in that direction. I think that's something that most Republicans will understand. I do think he's going to have an impact over the next few years in the same way that Sarah Palin had an impact in 2010. Sarah Palin of course had her own television show after she and John McCain lost their race in 2008 and there was a time when Sarah Palin could show up in 2010 and a great example of it, South Carolina.
Joe Scarborough: (39:56)
Nikki Hailey was trailing in her race for governor there, Sarah Palin went, endorsed Nikki Hailey. Nikki Hailey won and there were several states in 2010, several races in 2010 where Sarah Palin had that impact but it faded by 2012. I think we're going to find the same thing with Donald Trump.
Joe Scarborough: (40:16)
Donald Trump will be a force in the Republican Party if things continue to play out as they are right now over the next couple of years. But as we move to 2024 and as it becomes more obviously, that Donald Trump is not going to be the nominee in 2024 you're going to find a Republican Party that's going to be scrambling to catch up to the realities of the electorate that they are going to find themselves facing in the 2024 election.
Anthony Scaramucci: (40:45)
Joe, are you going to be the nominee in 2024?
Joe Scarborough: (40:49)
Not for the Republican Party, that's for sure. I don't think I could even get invited to a Regan dinner these days.
Anthony Scaramucci: (40:57)
Trust me I'm persona non grata as well. So whatever party you're going into I could use an invitation, Joe. All right, keep going, Darsie.
Joe Scarborough: (41:05)
Let's figure that out because we're both men without parties, men without countries right now.
Anthony Scaramucci: (41:10)
There's no question about that. It's lonely out here on the frontier Scarborough.
Joe Scarborough: (41:14)
Exactly.
John Darsie: (41:15)
And where you are on Jupiter that's literally and figuratively becoming Trump country down there. You see him renovating his suite in Mara Lago so maybe you guys will bump into each other at lunch down there.
Joe Scarborough: (41:28)
Let me tell you something, we have Trump flags all over my neighborhood. Anytime I go out on a boat there are Trump flags all over the place. I was thinking about putting up a flag that said Biden bitches. They're like "F your feelings. Trump 2020. No more BS. Trump 2020."
Joe Scarborough: (41:50)
Everywhere we went there were Trump flags but you know almost all of my childhood friends voted for Donald Trump. I think all of my family members voted for him. A couple of people lied and said they weren't voting but I know they voted for him.
Joe Scarborough: (42:05)
99% of the people I see every day voted for Donald Trump. So I don't quite understand why. It's not what I fought for as a conservative for 25 years as a Regan and Thatcher conservative for 25 years but you know, they voted for him so we'll see what happens four years from now.
John Darsie: (42:31)
The last question, you can provide a quick answer here. Do you think Biden's up for the job? You talked earlier about how you see some Republican senators that are likely to push for compromise, obviously, you have other Republican senators who are already laying the groundwork for the type of instructionism that you saw in parts of the Obama presidency. Do you think Biden, you know he's talked a lot about wanting to compromise and wanting to bring things back to the center, do you think he's going to be successful in healing these divisions that are in our society and healing our credibility on the world stage? Or do you think we're on an inevitable spiral toward more division and more isolationism?
Joe Scarborough: (43:12)
I think Joe Biden... I have believed for a very long time that this country has been blessed and that the right leaders have come along at the right time. I think after Richard Nixon somebody by the way that my family, my father loved, my family loved.
Joe Scarborough: (43:29)
But after Richard Nixon I think we were blessed as a nation to have Gerald Ford and then yes, Jimmy Carter come along and heal this country. You had two leaders that Americans trusted even if they thought Jimmy Carter wasn't up to the job by the end of it.
Joe Scarborough: (43:46)
You had two fundamentally decent men in the White House and I think Joe Biden is going to fill that role as we move forward. He will be able to talk to Republicans, bring Republicans to the table. Of course, at the end of the day, it's going to be up to Mitch McConnell on whether he wants to make a deal and get things done but Joe Biden understands he can't listen to the progressives in his party. He can't listen to the left-wingers in this party and get things done.
Joe Scarborough: (44:18)
I know that makes a lot of people on Twitter and a lot of people at my network and a lot of progressives in Washington angry, it's just the reality. As Bismark said, "Politics is the art of the possible." Joe Biden understands that. Also, is Joe Biden up to the job? I know I heard from a lot of my friends, "Oh I can't vote for Joe Biden because he's not all there mentally."
Joe Scarborough: (44:42)
I'll just say I heard that quietly from Democrats at the beginning of this process and yet Joe Biden outperformed all expectations every step of the way and shocked the progressives. Shocked the progressive Twitter. Was almost run out of the race, won in South Carolina, won on Super Tuesday, and got better as he went along.
Joe Scarborough: (45:10)
And by the way, it's not Joe Biden who made a disaster of the debate. It was Donald Trump who acted miserably in the first debate and I think most Republican strategists, the smartest Republicans I know say that Donald Trump lost the presidency because of the first debate. That if he'd acted in the first debate like he did in the second debate he probably would have beaten Joe Biden.
Joe Scarborough: (45:40)
So Biden has done what he's needed to do to win and I think he'll do what he needs to do to govern. He's been there since he was 29 years old. He knows Washington D.C., he knows it's players. He knows what's possible, he knows what's not possible and so I'm optimistic that we actually may get some things done for the first time in a long time.
John Darsie: (46:03)
Well Joe it's been a pleasure to have you. Anthony do you have a final word before we let Mr. Scarborough go?
Anthony Scaramucci: (46:08)
We're going to let Joe have the final word but I'm going to hold up the book again. Saving Freedom, Joe congratulations on the book. It's a best seller on Amazon and across the United States and I'm already getting messages into my phone that people are buying it for Christmas Joe, so God bless you with the book, and hopefully we can see you soon in a non-virtual setting. Maybe we'll get you to one of our SALT conferences one day when we can get out of the pandemic.
Joe Scarborough: (46:35)
I'm looking forward to it and let me ask you this because when I give speeches I spend time before the speeches the non-virtual speeches and I'll talk to everybody around the table. How's it going? What's happening with your business? And it's amazing what you learn by doing that.
Joe Scarborough: (46:53)
So if you don't mind, if you'll indulge me here to ask you about 2021 because it's very interesting, when I talk to business owners around Florida, and I'm talking about people that own 30 restaurants and own shopping malls and own strip malls and own commercial real estate up and down the food chain.
Joe Scarborough: (47:20)
Or somebody that just owns one or two restaurants or one or two small businesses. They have a very grim outlook on 2021 and they say they see bad times coming and their advice to me unsolicited advice is hold onto your cash because cash is going to be king in 2021 because we're going to start seeing the dominoes falling from everything that's happened this year.
Joe Scarborough: (47:48)
It's a pretty pessimistic take. When I talk to top bankers, that are running the big Wall Street banks they'll go, "Oh no we're going to do fine." I'm wondering, what are your thoughts, Anthony?
Anthony Scaramucci: (48:03)
So Joe I'm in an interesting position because I own a business in New York City, a restaurant called The Hunt and Fish Club, maybe someday we'll get you there.
Joe Scarborough: (48:10)
Oh, I'd love to be there.
Anthony Scaramucci: (48:12)
And we've got it closed right now and we own this business where we've got about eight billion dollars in capital under management which we've been running for 15 years so what you're referring to is a K what's going on. So the bankers and the Wall Streeters are going up and the small business owners and the small proprietors and the people in the middle income are going down. So that's a K shape of recovery but I'm a little bit more optimistic for the small business people.
Anthony Scaramucci: (48:41)
I would have loved to have seen an Andrew Yang style massive stimulus. I wrote about this in March. They were talking about a one to two trillion-dollar stimulus. I said it had to at least be three or four, John actually helped me co-author that editorial and we need another big stimulus right now.
Anthony Scaramucci: (49:00)
And what I would say to you is that we're at war. We just happened to be at war with an invisible molecule. Imagine if I said to you there was a sovereign nation that killed 250 plus thousand Americans and had killed 1,200 Americans a day. They're on, they've made a land invasion into the United States. They kill a quarter of a million Americans. They're wounding 100 or so, 150,000 a day, killing an additional 1,200. How much money would we spend, how much of our nation's resources would we put together to fight that war if it was a homeland invasion?
Anthony Scaramucci: (49:35)
So for me, I'm really just strongly encouraging people in government to think bigger, think bolder, go back to the second world war. We were borrowing 20 to 25% of the GDP back then and yes we have huge deficits, I've heard you talk about it on Morning Joe. The irony that the Republicans are going to be constrained on deficit spending now even though they were drunken sailors over the last four years.
Anthony Scaramucci: (50:03)
But we need a massive stimulus, Joe. If you get that stimulus, my opinion is going to be more like the bankers and less like the small business people because as the economy recovers I'll take you back to the 1920s, right after the global pandemic in 1918, 1919 we had the roaring 20s. Well, we can get back there. There's a tremendous amount of pent-up consumption.
Anthony Scaramucci: (50:30)
So long term I'm optimistic but I really do think we need a massive stimulus right now and I'm a long term conservative but when you're at war you've got to throw that playbook out the window and you've got to use the government for what it's supposed to be there for is to defend the health and prosperity and safety of its citizens.
Joe Scarborough: (50:52)
All right.
Anthony Scaramucci: (50:52)
All right. So how's that?
Joe Scarborough: (50:53)
That's fantastic. I appreciate it.
Anthony Scaramucci: (50:56)
And there's no distance between me and this camera Scarborough. That's why I'm able to-
John Darsie: (51:00)
That was Anthony's stump speech for 2024 Joe if you want to be a surrogate on the campaign trail we'll sign you up.
Anthony Scaramucci: (51:07)
I'll be the Manhasset dog catcher in 2024 Joe.
Joe Scarborough: (51:11)
I love it. I'm on that campaign. Let me know where to send the check.
Anthony Scaramucci: (51:15)
Just let me know if you need a comm director I need to get at least 12 days in my contract okay?
Joe Scarborough: (51:20)
I can do it. All right, thank you so much. Great seeing you John.
John Darsie: (51:22)
All right, thanks so much, Joe.
Anthony Scaramucci: (51:23)
Great seeing you, God bless on the book, and Merry Christmas to you and your family.
Joe Scarborough: (51:28)
Merry Christmas to you guys. Thank you.