“What connects people and the best recipe for healing conflicts is economic interests. In spite of what’s happened in the Middle East in the last few decades, I really do see an opening to change.”
Shabtai Shavit was director general of Mossad, Israel’s intelligence service, from 1989 to 1996. Shavit recently published his memoir, Head of the Mossad: In Pursuit of a Safe and Secure Israel.
Building shared economic interests represents the best way to resolve conflict and build lasting peace in the Middle East. There is currently an opening to achieve this goal with the recent normalization between Israel and key Arab countries following the Abraham Accords. The United States can play a major role by building a robust coalition that includes Israel and Arab countries. “The main common denominator between [Israel] and the Arab countries is the US leadership. I believe the change in guard in the US gives us the opportunity to be successful.”
On the global stage, Israel will continue to prioritize its relationship with the United States. Any Israel-China relationship will fit within Israel’s broader goals with the US.
LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE
SPEAKER
Shabtai Shavit
Director General, Mossad
(1989-1996)
MODERATOR
Anthony Scaramucci
Founder & Managing Partner
SkyBridge
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
John Darcie: (00:07)
Hello everyone. And welcome back to salt talks. My name is John Darcie. I'm the managing director of salt, which is a global thought leadership forum and networking platform at the intersection of finance technology and public policy. Salt talks are a digital interview series with leading investors, creators, and thinkers. And our goal on these salt talks the same as our goal at our salt conferences, which is to provide a window into the mind of subject matter experts, as well as provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future. And we're very excited today to welcome director [inaudible] to salt talks. Uh, Mr. Chavez was the director of the facade, which if you didn't know, is Israel's intelligence services from 1989 to 1996. Mr. Shavita held a variety of positions within massage, uh, for over 32 years until becoming the head of the agency in 1989, he served in [inaudible].
John Darcie: (01:02)
I might be butchering the pronunciation of that Israel's elite force and received an honorary advanced degree from Harvard university after retiring from work in the security services. Mr. Chavez was the CEO of Maccabi health services for five years. Uh, since 2001, Mr. Shavita has been the chairman of the board of the directors of the international Institute for counter-terrorism interdisciplinary center and her's liar advisor to the Israeli national security council advisor to the subcommittee on intelligence of the Knesset, uh, committee on foreign affairs and national security and a member of the N Y F D task force for future preparedness against terrorism. He's also the author of head of massage in pursuit of a safe and secure Israel, which was published by Notre Dame university press and hosting. Today's talk is Michael Greenwald, who is a director at Tiedemann men advisors, a multi-family office managing over 20 billion in assets, uh, from 2015 and 2017.
John Darcie: (02:00)
Michael was the U S treasury attache to Qatar and Kuwait serving in two us presidential administrations under three treasury secretaries and held counter-terrorism and intelligence roles requiring traveled to over 20 countries. Uh, in this capacity, he was the principal liaison to the banking sector in Qatar and Kuwait. He was appointed to the U S treasury team that crafted sanctions against Russia, ISIS, and Al-Qaeda using his diplomacy background. He serves as a trusted advisor for, to men, uh, managing senior relationships with families and family offices globally. Given his experience with sovereign wealth funds and the private sector in the middle east. He leads business development in the middle east forty-two minute advisors. Uh, I'm going to turn it over now to Michael to host the interview. I might pipe in with a couple of follow-up questions here and there, but Michael, go ahead and take it away.
Michael Greenwald: (02:50)
Thank you, John. And thank you. Saul talks for having us today and director it's a real pleasure to be with you. Uh, I'm so happy to be discussing your book, which, uh, is a page Turner and it is wonderful to have you again here today. So welcome. I want to begin director, you know, more than a hundred thousand Israelis have visited Dubai, uh, since the Abraham Accords, um, have come to fruition and you're seeing air travel, uh, opening up for the first time, uh, since last summer on Friday, the United Arab Emirates, and now it's the $10 billion fund to invest in Israel. And I want to first get your thoughts on what it means that this number of Israelis are traveling to the UAE. And what do you hope this fund to invest in Israel will mean for the future director? Well,
Shabtai Shavit: (03:55)
First of all, I would like to thank you for inviting me to, uh, talk to you. And, uh, it's a, it's a real pleasure, especially on these days of the, uh, of the pandemic. It gives you your, your, you are situated in, uh, in, in the end of the world and you, and you are talking live with the other end of the world. Share gives you a feeling of being free. Uh, well, the, uh, I, I, uh, I really don't see the, the Abraham, uh, agreements as a, uh, as a maybe unique opportunity for a window of opportunity to, uh, to bring to the middle east large and [inaudible] of, uh, stability instead of, uh, walls in skirmishes. And they always, and then never ending conflict between Israel and the Palestinians and, um, what connects people and the best recipe for healing conflict is, uh, um, economic interests.
Shabtai Shavit: (05:22)
And, uh, here in spite of all, what happened in the zap and in the, uh, in the middle east, in the last few decades, I, I, uh, I really do, uh, um, see an opening to, to change it, but of course, it's, uh, it's a matter of, uh, a, a relatively long period of time and it needs a, um, if you're quick conditions, so, uh, uh, to be, uh, met, uh, but, but by and large, it is, it is feasible. And, and the, and the, uh, what, what we have as a society, as people, as, as nations to, to win is, uh, makes, makes it very, very deserved to, uh, to invest the, uh, all day felt, which is, which is needed. So, um, the main area, the main common denominator between us, um, there are countries, most of them, especially the, the so many countries in the middle east, um, but we need for it to happen.
Shabtai Shavit: (06:47)
We need the, uh, leadership of, of, uh, of the us. Um, and they, uh, I believe that the change of guardian in the USA in the us also gives us the opportunity to, uh, to be successful, uh, and what's needed the form, uh, from the, uh, president president is to, uh, to change a little bit the, uh, former policy of America first and, uh, let's disengage from the world. And, uh, and, and deal only with domestic abuse, American domestic, domestic, eh, eh, issues. Now, uh, the middle east is a, is a hill since the beginning of time. And, and, and one of its scars characteristic is that all along his three, it was considered to be, uh, an area region, uh, which, which, uh, stability is not the one of its icons and symbols and, uh, you know, anybody or anybody who believes that he can, uh, leave the, uh, middle east and don't pay attention to it based on my humble experience, eh, it is a, uh, it is not a vision that can, uh, can, uh, become a troll.
Shabtai Shavit: (08:18)
Um, we ever saying that, uh, um, your main neglect the middle east, but the middle east would never neglect you. So, uh, it's a, it's a, it's a issue that, uh, the Alto two parties to these, to these Stango. So, uh, that's why I do believe, uh, the United States has the, as the leading power of the free world. Uh we'll uh, we'll, uh, we'll, we'll be connected and we'll invest a diamond and sources and resources, um, to the middle east. And, and now we do have, and you're opening with a very, was a very good, eh, eh, up to, uh, to be successful. So, uh, to put it very, uh, very shortly, what I, uh, what I see is a new excess of power, uh, being built in the, in the middle east, which will include, first of all, the U S as, as the leading a thumbnail, and then the, uh, three countries, Israel, Egypt, and Jordan, the fridge that, um, all of the heirs have a peace treaties, uh, since quite a long time.
Shabtai Shavit: (09:51)
And then the, uh, the emulates who, uh, joined the, uh, the, uh, Abram, uh, gods. And I also say Saudi Arabia is a major power that, uh, should be, uh, uh, a partner in, in, in this, uh, in this, uh, ex-US now these sexes, um, will, uh, will, uh, transmit to the rest of the world. The following measures will the following message, which says that the us is, is not disengaging from, from the middle east. The us is, uh, um, going to pay a major role in the, in the middle east. And, uh, the message will be, uh, will be, uh, targeted first of all, to China on the, on the global level to Russia on the global level, um, a signal to them that, listen, we are not, eh, uh, going out from the, from the playground. And, uh, then on the regional, uh, on the regional level, it really is, will send a very strong message to a Iran.
Shabtai Shavit: (11:14)
And to Turkey. Iran is, uh, is galloping 12, the, uh, acquiring a military nuclear capability with a military surface to surface your gloomy sides. And they, uh, Delcy is undergoing a, uh, a, um, a sort of a, uh, uh, uh, becoming again, eh, um, religious, the Shalia, you slamming jealous showy, and they, uh, and they cooperate and support, uh, some of the, uh, most extreme Muslim organizations. So this new axis will, uh, will be a buffer also vis-a-vis Iran and Turkey, which, which are considered to be original powers. And they, uh, at the end of this, uh, this process, it will bring hopefully peace between Israel and the Palestinians, because if the, uh, this axis will be engaged in, uh, in, in enhancing the idea of the peace and, um, and, and the Saudi Arabia will, will be a participant in it. And in all the, in order for them to, to join, uh, we'll have to, uh, all parties will have to, uh, base the, uh, uh, negotiation, eh, draft on the Saudi or the leg, eh, proposal from back 2003. And they, uh, I don't see either side, not the Palestinians and not, uh, Israeli, Israeli, whatever government it may have to, uh, to, uh, flannel, to be, to, to be opposed to such a proposal.
Michael Greenwald: (13:31)
So building on that director, and then you mentioned China, and obviously many of the Gulf states Israel's played in a unique intermediary role for years. And someone say that the role that Israel has played with, uh, weaponizing its, uh, cyber capabilities in its own Silicon valley and what it's been able to have our relationship strategically with the Gulf states and China and others that its intimidatory role has been very unique the same time. Uh, a number of the Gulf states have played a key intermediary role with China. How do you see what the Gulf states, um, can learn from Israel and what can Israel learn from the Gulf states? And in your book director, you spend time in Southern Iran in the early seventies. What do you think Israel can learn from a wall
Shabtai Shavit: (14:35)
Form form for me around? Well, the I'm smiling because the first answer that comes to my mind is, uh, is, uh, um, while stalling, uh, and, uh, and playing full time and by playing,
Michael Greenwald: (15:00)
I mean, obviously we know the Iranians are excellent negotiators.
Shabtai Shavit: (15:05)
They they've, I've invented this, uh, this out, you know, I, uh, I I've learned some of my Farsi in the Bazaar and the art of negotiation started in the Bazaar. It is an Iranian, it is an Iranian invention and, uh, you know, uh, imagining a home, well, eh, well, around the table, you have a group of Americans negotiator and a group of Belgium negotiators. Uh, I don't have any doubts whatsoever who is going to, uh, to warn the answer. Um, so this is the, this is the, uh, this is the first, the first thing that I learned and other things that I learned. And then, uh, it was, it was right those years at the, uh, mid sixties, um, that, uh, uh, you know, you know, that in order to, uh, you don't need protection if you have, if you have connections in, uh, in, in Iran.
Shabtai Shavit: (16:18)
And, uh, if I can, uh, if I can, uh, steal from our time two minutes, I try to give you a vignette from those days. Um, uh, like version any Iranian and Iranian partner of mine those years taught me one morning. You know, I, I'm going to the Bazaar to buy, uh, to buy clothes, eh, for, for short, uh, you want to join me and I, um, I joined him, so we went to job. We entered the shop, uh, the, uh, the guy in the shop didn't, uh, didn't know, well, and we started to, uh, to measure and to ask until about cloth and so on and so forth. All of a sudden the telephone in the shop rang and the, uh, shop on it went and took the, uh, telephone. And, uh, after a, uh, 30 seconds, he turned to us and he told us, uh, are you a Mr.
Shabtai Shavit: (17:21)
So-and-so the, uh, the, uh, eh, governor of, uh, of the region, uh, once you, and, uh, my partner, the union partner took the, took the phone and talk for a five, six, seven minutes. Um, he finished every, every sentence that he said by the words, yes, [inaudible] general. And then he, uh, he finished the, uh, the, uh, telephone call and, uh, then we bought what we bought and when it came to paying the, uh, the shop owner refused to, uh, to receive money from us. And it was about why we had connections. The, uh, the governor of the, of the region called us when we went out, my counterpart told me the telephone came from my wife. So he talk with, he was discussing with his mom as his wife, as if she were the, uh, secretary of the governor. So it's, it's a very colorful story, but, uh, it tells you what the, the, the, the what's behind dating in culture in, uh, in DNA and so on and so forth. So, uh, these are the basics
Michael Greenwald: (18:56)
That, that crystallizes, I think the art of negotiation, and, you know, I hope that, uh, the Israelis and the Iranians can maybe at one point go to the tailor together. Again, I want to build on Israel's relationship with China. I know that you dealt with the Chinese at different levels when you were director or at massage, where do you see the relationship with China going right now? It's a very sensitive issue here in the United States, the previous administration pressure, uh, you know, the prime minister and the government on how close the ties should be. Where do you think is the happy medium for Israel to have a strategic relationship with China, but also maintain and grow the strategic relationship with the United States without putting the relationship with China, uh, out of bounds and doing things that would potentially hurt the United States?
Shabtai Shavit: (20:00)
Well, let me, let me tell her the following. And of course I express myself only. I don't represent nobody and no one of the, uh, of the organizations it's I, uh, used to, uh, to belong in, in, in, in the bus in the past. Um, I believe I, I would rephrase your, your, your question or the answer to your question that we should define and cut out our, the nature of our relationship with China form our relationship with the us, meaning basically that between the two, I don't have any doubt. And I, and I think that nobody should have any doubt to whom to give the preference. There is no doubt that we should, uh, this, the define and build the relationship between us and the, and the, uh, us, and to come to a sort of an understanding, to what extent we, it would be acceptable fall following us, uh, that we, uh, that we, uh, build on the other hand, some relationship with the Chinese cause, uh, um, relationship between the us and Israel go back, uh, for so many years, a U us was the first, uh, the first country in the UN to support the, uh, inception and the, the establishment of the state of Israel, a relationship between Israel and the United States are based not only on fuel interests, but, uh, on, on, on the heritage of, of, of, uh, the Jewish, uh, uh, culture and, uh, and, and, and the Bible and so on and so forth.
Shabtai Shavit: (22:23)
And they, uh, and the us oftentimes, um, declared that, uh, the, the security and the survival freeze of Israel as, uh, as an independent country is one of the, uh, one of the pillars of, of the American foreign policy. Whereas with China, we, we do have a relationship that, um, it's nice to have, but, uh, those relationships when it comes to, uh, to well survival, um, we, Israel, we cannot, we cannot align them. So, uh, this is the balance. And according to this balance, or should say design and, and execute our way, our relationship with them.
Michael Greenwald: (23:17)
So director revoric turned to how Israel as utilized, uh, the COVID vaccine for its strategic influence. There was a part of your book that really, um, spoke to me as well as other people that have worked in, uh, professions of service and, and professional service. And you, you mentioned in your book, um, dealing with the eulogies, um, of, uh, some of the members of the saw that had died at the service, and it was interesting that you included those eulogies, um, you know, written over the years. And so, can you just maybe talk to us about why you included that part in your book and what it means to you when you read them about service and being away from your family during that time period? That was very tumultuous. Um, uh, um,
Shabtai Shavit: (24:25)
The, the basic logic of Silvis in, in, in Israel, and especially in, in the different security organizations, uh, starting with the idea of, and, and then the security, salvation animal sound is, uh, is based on the notion that, eh, we, people who self the, the country do it voluntarily. First of all, they don't do it for living. I can, uh, adjust in brackets 32 years. Believe me, I didn't know the amount of money that, uh, entered my bank account, eh, as, as, as my salary, when I wanted anything about, you said there was connected with money. I, I, uh, I talked to my, I talked to my wife, so, um, and the, the feeling of a, uh, an independent war that unfortunately never, never ends. And I, we went out, we are 72 years. Uh, we are 72 years since, since independence. Uh, there was no one decade was out any, I was out any encounter between us and, and our neighbors, some of our neighbors as in with the terrorist organizations. And there is Lord, they passing by without a casualty or [inaudible].
Shabtai Shavit: (26:29)
So the, the, our DNA's DNA of, of April, well, uh, well, uh, for, for the long after our alive, and this is maybe the, the, the uniqueness about our situation is compared to, as compared to other, other country around the world. And, uh, this is also the reason why you are, you're talking with me and, uh, I'm now, uh, um, 82 years old, uh, and you sit and talk to somebody who would pay a fortune in order to achieve, uh, you know, to achieve peace and, and to live and to live the Israel, uh, at peace with its neighbors, for, for my kids and grandchildren. So
Michael Greenwald: (27:33)
I want to build on that because my next question was about your grandchildren. Um, did you feel you were given your role and given the difficult areas you were tackling, did you feel as present in the lives of your children? Are you making up for that now in the lives of your grandchildren, and when, what are you hoping that when your grandchildren tell their children about you, how do you want them to describe you? What stories do you want your grandchildren tell their children, uh, about their grandfather?
Shabtai Shavit: (28:15)
You know, I am, I am a, uh, um, I am a great believer in, in, in, uh, in, in the equation that charisma is being, uh, is being expressed by deeds and not by stories. So, uh, because of this, uh, uh, definition, I, um, I've rarely, uh, discussed, uh, eh, things about, uh, about this, this issue, like, uh, any other issues I just to tell you on brackets that the, uh, the event, when the prime minister nominated me to, uh, to the, uh, to the job, there was a small modest event is with the BA all the big shots of the country. Uh, yeah, I thought that they, it was a, an opportunity for me to, uh, to say something about my, uh, how I see the world, how I see the threads, what, how I feel, I believe that we should, uh, address our problems. And, uh, I was standing vis-a-vis the appointment. His cell was delayed [inaudible] and, um, it was very well, very near to each other. It's all of Sunday. So in bending to the guy who stood the side to him, and he told him, Hey, listen, I did know the shops I know, knows to speak at all.
Shabtai Shavit: (29:59)
So, eh, I, I, uh, I'm happy that whenever I, I remember it, uh, my, my kids without me preaching, without me saying my kids, six of them, $3, they finished the army. Compulsor compa compulsory service, and three are now in the army. All of them, I don't know why I didn't use any connection, but all of them are serving in a, in, in, in elite units. Uh, they didn't learn it at school. They didn't say that they, they were not, eh, eh, led to. Uh, but, uh, this is the nature of the kind of lives that you, that you lead, which, uh, at the end of the day, influence your, your siblings smaller than anything else.
Michael Greenwald: (31:07)
So, director, I want to turn to COVID and how Israel has tackled it, because I think Israel has played a very important role and how it's used in the facade to first, um, you know, create control and order in the country, and then obviously to create its own sense of urgency, uh, to create, uh, find that vaccines working with, uh, different parts of the country. Uh, and so it's really being seen as a model. Uh, how do you S why do you think Maasai got involved with it with COVID in this capacity and how do you see Israel being talked about 20 years from now? Was this an inflection point for Israel coupled with the Abraham Accords to really blossom in a different economic way than it ever has before?
Shabtai Shavit: (32:06)
Look, it's a, it's an interesting, it's an easy question, but, uh, but, uh, I know, uh, I'm sure that some people who would listen to us now, not going to like my answer to that question, looking at it, in retrospect, it it's believe me itself, the purpose of, of, of a gimmick to, to some people without naming names, uh, judging it by the results, believe me, the, uh, the operation in which the Maasai board, the nuclear, uh, a, uh, stall book with, with all the millions of, of documents of the, uh, of the new, of the Iranian nuclear technology. I'm sure that 20 years from now, no one will remember that the Mossad was engaged to, by a vaccine sense and these kinds of things, but everybody would the member of the, uh, the operation that dealt with the Iranian nuclear project.
Michael Greenwald: (33:38)
So I want to turn to your thoughts on whether another Arab spring could brew among some Arab states. You think we're headed for a second round, do you see the, uh, another type of geopolitical earthquake happening of uprisings? Um, and if not, why do you think that wouldn't take place
Shabtai Shavit: (34:06)
Fell? So Foley took place at the beginning of the 2010, 10, and, and hence it took place because, uh, because they, uh, and I'm, I I'm talking bullets now a, uh, because they young generation in, in the Arab countries, um, underwent a sort of a, uh, intellectual revolution and, uh, and decided that it was time for the Arab countries who, uh, well, mostly to tell Italian kinds of countries to, uh, to change and, and to introduce, uh, to the middle east, a democracy and, and so democracy and, uh, and, uh, uh, um, liberal economy and freedom and so on and so forth. But it turns out that they didn't succeed because the result of the spring of solutions in the middle east brought in extremely slum instead of democracy.
Shabtai Shavit: (35:24)
And in order to beat the, uh, extreme Islam we had, we had the, uh, the, uh, different, uh, revolutions, uh, was the involvement of, uh, of a fault of the world, um, terrorism itself, expended and, uh, covers now all the world and the, uh, the, uh, extreme terrorism, which is based on, on religious, on, on religion makes the, uh, the, the, the confrontation and the end, the problem, even more difficult because of the nature of, of this kind of Islam being, being, being a Legion, religious. And, uh, yeah, eh, one gentleman who one molar Tula can the, tell me in the, uh, the, the, the, the future of the country or the future of the world. Uh, it's interesting that the only one countries who, who, who moved past the, um, spring revolution safely, well, the monarchies, it was Jordan and Morocco. And, uh, and to extort the sentence said the monarchies in the, in the, in the Gulf, they, uh, they cross this, uh, this era relatively, relatively well.
Shabtai Shavit: (37:04)
Now I, my it's not the feeling it's assessment is there that the young generation who, who, uh, uh, started it back in, in, in 2010, they still are around and the generation behind are there. And, and the urge fall for changing the, the, the middle east to become a better Middle-East economically, socially, politically, and so on. And so forth is, is, is still there. So I don't call out the, uh, the possibility that, uh, um, certain conditions, um, cause each other in a, in a given time. And we may, uh, we may see it a second chapter of, uh, of, of this say,
Michael Greenwald: (38:06)
Right? So I have two more questions for you director. Want, you talked about you going into the Taylor with your Radian counterpart and given what this administration in the United States is about to undertake with future negotiations with Iran, and what secretary of state Blinken is forming his team. How would you advise the United States from a negotiation perspective? What tactics, what areas of strength, how do you see the United States coming to the table from more of a position of strength? How can they exit the tailor, not having to pay for their suits?
Shabtai Shavit: (38:59)
Look, the, uh, the wrong speech that I, uh, gave you the, uh, the outset of our meeting. If, if, if this, um, speech becomes the strategy of the American foreign foreign policy, this alone will affect the, the, the, uh, the, the T the mind physician and the, and the strategy that they [inaudible] will shape in order to, in order to, uh, to style their negotiations around the table. Now, because if Iran realizes that not only the U S as the number one superpower in the world is staying in the middle east, but rather it's succeeds to build a very big coalition and especially a coalition where Arab countries and Israel are participating. Um, the Iranians are not stupid. They are, they are very smart, and it, it will, it will, uh, um, it will indicate to them that, uh, this coalition mean means business. And it is not only the United States that negotiate with them. It's the, uh, big top, we, the bigger part of the middle east and the Europeans, and, uh, they, they, it, it may affect them, their demands and their, uh, vision and, and so on and so forth.
Shabtai Shavit: (41:06)
Now, now, now, just to add to this, to be more, more practical, you know, the, uh, the, the, the existing treaty introducing to it, uh, a few addition, uh, demands or requests or long call it, whatever you like to call, but, uh, one that, uh, eh, and demands as regards to the, uh, what the experts call the, the sunset of, of the, of the, uh, eh, agreement, eh, the, uh, um, uh, the, uh, nuclear surface to surface Smith's size, which was not dealt with entirely with, in the existing, eh, contract, and also, uh, the issue of, uh, Iranians mingling all over the middle east and, and, and causing a troublesome havoc. So if, if, if the west, with the us succeed to deal with this, maybe one or two additional, eh, points that I don't recall it at the moment and succeed to extract form the Iranians, um, agreement on this issue, it could give us a, um, another generation of a relative peace.
Michael Greenwald: (42:40)
So, director, I want to ask you one last question before I turn it back to John and that's, if, if the prime minister asked you tomorrow to create a Passover Seder table, which countries besides the United States, would you have at that table during that Seder and why, so what countries are most important to Israel going forward besides the United States?
Shabtai Shavit: (43:21)
Um, I, it's a, it's a very good question. I never thought about it. We just, uh, we just got the news last night that, uh, we are going to have a regular Seder without any restrictions from the government because of the, because of the Corona. Eh, it will sound odd to you, but I'm going to tell you what I'm going to say, but if it, if it was possible, I would invite in addition of the Americans, I would invite the Chinese.
Michael Greenwald: (44:08)
Do you think they would like brisket and matzah ball soup?
Shabtai Shavit: (44:12)
I, uh, what I can tell you from my, uh, personal experience is that, uh, the Chinese, uh, think only good things about us, uh, in, in, in various issues. They even envious. Again, I can, I can give you another vignette. Um, when, when I used to visit, after making the round of meetings, and I, uh, during my term, I, uh, I visited the three, four times a year there, and they all do the simple cake. So after finishing the, the, the round of meetings with my counterparts, they took me to, uh, uh, to, uh, Pilsen was the number three on the police bugle, a ladder. He had three heads. He was the coordinator of all security services. He was the chairman of the, uh, nation say parliament. So say they have this body, eh, very small 6,000 members of, and he was the chairman of this body.
Shabtai Shavit: (45:35)
And the fairly, he was the fellow number three on the [inaudible] list. And in the each time during the first meetings, three, four meetings at the certain point of time, he used to, uh, to push the, uh, the, uh, the question, tell me, who's all there reminded me, who is all the, your us and the stories. They're all there. I, you can't tell me. So I had to, I had to tell him, you are older than we are. And then I thought, what, what should I do? What can I do? And it was the face to face meeting with him. I waited for him to drop the, uh, to, to, uh, to, to push the, uh, the question of any deed. I told him, listen, we have another calendar than you. Our calendar is the weight of, of, uh, the brains and all the, uh, you know, the regular calendar of fields since then. He never, he never asked the question again.
Michael Greenwald: (46:48)
Well, director, I, uh, I look forward to having Passover Seder with you. You are always welcome. And I look forward to that very much. I want to thank you so much for this wonderful conversation today, uh, for this fantastic book, which I recommend everyone to go out and read in John. I want to turn it back over to you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.
John Darcie: (47:11)
Well, director Chavez. It was a pleasure to have you here on salt talks and Michael, thank you so much for moderating today's conversation. I look forward to having you again on salt talks out to talk about a lot of the things that you've worked on and continue to work on over at Tetum. And I love reading all of your articles that you send through out to your mailing list. So thank you so much for joining us. Uh, both of just a reminder, uh, for anybody who missed any part of this salt talk or any of our previous salt talks, all these salt talks are available on our website and on our YouTube channel salt.org backslash talks is the website. Our YouTube channel is called salt too. We've made all these webinars free during COVID to just try to educate people on a variety of things going on in the world. So we've really enjoyed that. We're also on social media on Twitter is where we're most active at salt conference, but we're also on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook. And please spread the word about these salt talks, but on behalf of the entire salt team, this is John Darcie signing off for today. We hope to see you back here soon.