“The events that happened over the last five years uncovered the toxicity and ugliness when it comes to racism, the underbelly of society. I think the Trump administration exposed that… The boldness was fairly shocking.”
Don Lemon is host of CNN Tonight with Don Lemon and also serves as a correspondent across the network’s programming. He recently authored the book, This Is the Fire: What I Say to My Friends About Racism.
James Baldwin’s book The Fire Next Time marked the 100th anniversary of the Emancipation Proclamation and served as the inspiration for Don Lemon’s This Is the Fire: What I Say to My Friends About Racism. The civil unrest stemming from the death of George Floyd created the urgency to write personally about the ugliness laid bare by the last four years of former President Trump’s rhetoric and policies. Language coming out of the White House offered affirmation to those motivated by white supremacist ideology. “We know there is a resurgence of neo-Nazi’s which I think would’ve been hidden if not for Donald Trump. He had become their imprimatur.”
When watching Trump’s speech on January 6th, violence appeared inevitable following months of misinformation spread about President Biden’s victory. Vulnerability to such manipulation can traced to schools’ whitewashed teaching of the country’s history. This emphasizes the importance of curriculum that contains unvarnished truths and also highlights the significant contributions to the United States by African-Americans.
LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE
SPEAKER
Don Lemon
Anchor
CNN Tonight
MODERATOR
Anthony Scaramucci
Founder & Managing Partner
SkyBridge
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
John Darcie: (00:07)
Hello everyone. And welcome back to salt talks. My name is John Darcie. I'm the managing director of salt, which is a global thought leadership forum and networking platform at the intersection of finance technology and public policy. Salt talks are a digital interview series with leading investors, creators, and thinkers. And our goal on these salt talks is the same as our goal at our salt conferences, which is to provide a window into the mind of subject matter experts, as well as provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future. And we are thrilled today to welcome the great Don lemon to salt talks. I know Anthony has been on Don show many times and, uh, we're, we're big fans of your show. They're on CNN, uh, Mr. Lemon, but Don lemon, anchor CNN tonight with Don lemon airing weeknights at 10:00 PM.
John Darcie: (00:56)
He also serves as a correspondent across CNN, us programming. Uh, he's based out of the network, New York bureau. Uh, he joined CNN in September of 2006. He's a news veteran of Chicago, however, and he reported reported from Chicago in the days leading up to the 2008 presidential election in which we saw a president Obama, a Chicago native would be elected the first African-American president, including an interview within representative Rama manual. On the day that he accepted the position of chief of staff for president elect Barack Obama. He also interviewed Anne Cooper, the 106 year old voter that president Obama highlighted in his election night acceptance speech. After he had seen, uh, Don's interview with Cooper on CNN. Uh, Don also served as the moderator for CNN political town halls and co moderated the first 2020 democratic presidential debate. And co-hosted color of COVID a special that addressed the pandemic's impact on communities of color. Don is also out with a great book that Anthony will talk about in the opening here called this is the fire talking about race relations in the United States, which is a must read, uh, in this era in any era, frankly, but hosting today's talk is Anthony Scaramucci, who I was alluding to who was a founder and managing partner of SkyBridge. I know Anthony has been on the show with Don many times. Anthony is also the chairman of salts. And with that, I'll turn it over to Anthony to begin the interview.
Anthony Scaramucci: (02:21)
So, so, so Don would Darcie wanted to say, but I had to take it out of the script that he loves your show, except when I'm on it. Okay. But I had a, I had a mark that out of the script, but just give me a sense for the type of people we're dealing with on Saltdogs.
Don Lemon: (02:36)
Did you hear that? He called me Mr. Limit. Yeah. I heard that. Yeah.
Anthony Scaramucci: (02:41)
Yeah. I mean, I, I may have to start calling you that I could, you know, at someday it could be sir lemon. You'd never know Don the way your career's going. I have no idea, but let, we could start out with sir, but I'm holding up the book for a reason. First of all, the covers. Fantastic. This is the fire. What I say, my friends about racism and obviously Don anchors, CNN tonight, a great cover. Why did you title it? This, I want you to go into the reasons why you've mentioned them in the book, but why do you title it this, and you write about your nieces and nephews about the fight to end racism, give us some sense for how this book came together and why you titled it
Don Lemon: (03:21)
That well, this book is a tribute to James Baldwin and it was fashion in, um, in a sense to, uh, to James Baldwin's book, the fire next time, which was my favorite book. And one of the first books, well, not one of the first book, but the book that really changed my life. And you can see, this is my original copy from one of the original.
Anthony Scaramucci: (03:41)
We, we get a lot of young people that listen into Saul talks. Obviously I want them to read that book as well as this one. So for those young people, they're not as familiar with James Baldwin as you and I are. Uh, tell us who James Baldwin was and why he had such a big impact on Don lemon,
Don Lemon: (04:00)
James Ball with Don lemons. James Baldwin was a revolutionary, uh, writer and author and thinker of his time, uh, from the 1960s, seventies and eighties. Um, and do you remember he, you know, he would do talks with William F. Buckley and, you know, he was just a great thinker, um, and, um, a great, um, uh, thought leader of his time. And he wrote a lot about race relations in this country. He happened to be gay, a gay black man from Harlem. I'm a gay black man from the south. So when I picked up his book as a freshman in college, it really changed my life. And the book is called the fire. Next time. It's a short book. He starts off the book with a letter to his nephew on the 100 year anniversary of the emancipation proclamation. And so as I was sitting around Anthony, as you know, uh, at the matrix of really what had, what has been happening in the country over the last couple of years, but especially the, the unrest that took place last summer, uh, with the death of culminating in the death of George Florida and then the protests that happened.
Don Lemon: (05:00)
Um, and in that moment, I decided it was time for me to write a book about race and I wanted to, to be as impactful as the fire next time, which is my favorite book. And as powerful as that book and as revolutionary as that book, um, not that I'm James Baldwin, I'm not trying to be him. There's only one hand. Only one person could put words on paper like he did. Uh, and so this is the answer to that. He, in his book, he said, uh, when, when he talked about race, he said, God gave Noah the rainbow sign, no more water, the fire next time speaking specifically about the race issue in this country. And so my book, after all those events happen this summer, I said, well, this is the fire that James Baldwin talked about. We're in the fire now. And thus came my book and I begin it like James Baldwin with a letter to my great nephew. You
Anthony Scaramucci: (05:46)
Know, it, it, it it's fascinating. Cause I read obviously the works of James Baldwin as a kid, I got invited to a, this conference on race awareness when was in high school and, uh, Eddie Glaude, professor Eddie Glaude who, you know, obviously wrote a book last summer, begin again about James Baldwin. And so I find it fascinating these back with us, but something that struck me about your book that I'd like you to address is that you talk about your trials and tribulations with racism growing up where you did. I want you to tell our listeners and viewers where you grew up and some of those tribulations, but I want to ask you a question and ask you to think about it for a second, growing up and being where you are today, the arc of your career has been tremendous, but did you think, and I'll, I'll answer for myself. I thought the racism was going to decline as we were growing up, you know, the introduction of James Baldwin, Martin Luther king Jr. The idea that we're all the same and we should judge ourselves by the content of our character, but that did not happen. And so my question to you is did you think that growing up where you aspirational, idealistic like that or?
Don Lemon: (07:03)
Yeah, I think we're both the eighties. Uh, you know, I grew up was born in the sixties. The seventies shaped me, but the eighties really had, uh, had a profound impact on me because you know, the eighties were kind of, everybody was free.
Anthony Scaramucci: (07:15)
You you're not catching the smirking from Darcie who was born last week. Okay. Just want to point that out to you. Okay. You're not ignoring him. Try to ignore him. You're a fellow baby boomer like me. We have to team up on him. Otherwise we have no shot here. Nope. Nope. I'm
Don Lemon: (07:31)
Gen X, right? You're a baby boomer.
Anthony Scaramucci: (07:34)
Okay. All right. That's true. The last year of the baby boomers, Botox
John Darcie: (07:38)
That can make you look as young as Don, but keep going,
Anthony Scaramucci: (07:42)
But let me tell you something, there are much more Botox experiments ahead in my future Darcie. So it may not look that way now, but it's coming. Okay. So just take it easy over there. Botox, dude, I can barely move my face at this point. Notice if you don't notice,
Don Lemon: (08:01)
Let me see if I can barely have a glass
Anthony Scaramucci: (08:05)
Of lemon. I can barely have a glass of water at this point in my life. Okay. I'm using, I'm using double straws now on my Starbucks in the morning. Now Darcie's enjoying that because I'm getting roasted. Let's go back to your thoughts about idealism and where we
Don Lemon: (08:22)
Are. So I was a child of the sixties, really. You know, I don't remember much of the sixties. I was born in 66, right. But I remember the, the seventies and eighties and the eighties. That's when I was coming into my own, I was becoming a young man and an adult. And I went to a high school at first. I went to an all-black Catholic school and then ended up going to a high school that was predominantly white. Um, and so I started having interactions with all types of people and people began being open about, you know, intermingling and, and getting together. This was, you know, a decade after had become integrated in the south. I went to my high school a decade after it had become integrated. Um, and so I thought the same way, I kept thinking as I was growing up, well, this is going to change.
Don Lemon: (09:06)
It's going to die off. When the old people die off, you know, it's going to go away. Uh, and then the events, especially that happened over the last five years or so, just started to uncover, um, all of the toxicity and ugliness when it comes to racism, the sort of underbelly of our society, if you will. Um, I think that the Trump administration exposed that, uh, and it was a rude awakening for a lot of people. It wasn't surprising that it was there, but to the boldness, that, to the degree that it was for me was actually fairly shocking. And so, I don't know if you remember in the book where I said that Trump was, I hated to say it, but he was the president we, we deserve. And probably the one we needed in the moment. No, I mean,
Anthony Scaramucci: (09:52)
I'm, I'm going to get there. I think that's a fascinating part of the book.
Don Lemon: (09:55)
I was optimistic that racism would diminish as I got older five years. It has not done. Yeah, no,
Anthony Scaramucci: (10:03)
Not only that. It was probably cloaked, a little bit of anything. President Trump, as you point out of the book exposed, it may, maybe that will help us get to a better point. I want to go to your mom first and then we'll get to Donald Trump. But, uh, and I have not met your mom.
Don Lemon: (10:18)
It's weird. What's that? She loves you. I don't know why it's weird probably cause you turned on the orange menace and she does not
Anthony Scaramucci: (10:24)
Like it. And she probably is happy. I predicted a lot of the stuff that was going to happen, that she was, she drew comfort from that. Right.
Don Lemon: (10:31)
Can I tell you later when we talk about, you know, what are you exposed as far as race? He also, um, quite frankly, made people a lot more politically engaged because my mom was never that political and now she listens to everything. She despised him. And if she didn't despise him before he started attacking me, certainly afterwards, she couldn't
Anthony Scaramucci: (10:51)
Say, yeah, well, I mean, look, I mean, listen, you're, I have not met your mom yet. Although, uh, Dierdre my wife, Deirdre and I had a chance to see her on your new year's Eve special with Brooke Baldwin and uh, no surprise to viewer. She stole the show. Uh, you, you know, she has more charisma in her little finger than all of us do. Okay. You just beautiful manifestation of authenticity, but you write something in the book about traveling to Africa, with her and the emotions that you both felt in Africa and your connection to your mom. So can you share that with us? I don't want to give the book away, but there's some beautiful passages here that I want to talk about so that I can get convinced people to buy this book and spend the time to read
Don Lemon: (11:36)
It. Well. So long story short, we did a segment on CNN, all the anchors on, uh, tracing our roots. And so I had to go back to Louisiana and then of course, you know, back to the continent of Africa to do it. And we went to the slave coast, uh, the, the Cape coast castle on the slave coast last gold coast because they can overlap in Africa and, um, to trace the journey back to America. And so we ended up at this castle with the Dungeons where the slaves with, with shackles and it was just really this just heavy experience. Um, and once we got out to, you know, we'll tell you what happened in that dungeon. You can only imagine people in the dungeon and shackles for months. Sometimes we get to the place called the, uh, the door of no return where you go out and you board the slave ship. And it was the last, really the last land that anybody saw in Africa as they left to make that journey across the Atlantic and walking through that door with my mother and us holding hands was probably the most emotional experience I've ever
Anthony Scaramucci: (12:39)
Had in my life. I mean, it, it, it, it, it moved me to tears. Uh, Don, I have to say, that's why I wanted to address it. I folded the pages over your mother says, I have to confess something said, mom, I'm glad we came, but I'm glad I don't live here. Tell us what she means.
Don Lemon: (12:58)
Well, this was after that experience. And because after that experience, you go to, they changed the name. And when you turn around, which really made us cry and gave us optimism is a door of return. And so after we shot that the door of no return, the door returned, and we saw the kids playing in the sea, which I write about and carefree in the book. We go back to the hotel that night and we're just going over the day. And we were sitting by the sea. We have a bottle of wine. My mom opens up to me and talks to me about how, how much she loved me, loves me how proud she was of me or isn't me. And, um, she said, you showed me things. I'm, I'm the adult. I'm supposed to be showing you things and teaching you things, but you have showed me things that I had never thought that I would see or learn or do in my life.
Don Lemon: (13:43)
And I'm just so proud of you. And I just, I love you so much. Um, and then she said, but I have to be honest with you. I'm glad we don't live here because I don't, um, I don't know if I could accept or understand this degree of poverty. And, um, she said, if I'd lived here, I probably wouldn't know. Um, but she also said, we also wondered about those kids in the sea if they had a freedom. Um, and, um, a lack of, self-aware not self-awareness, but a self, um, consciousness that we didn't have as adults, because we knew America. And that we had learned too much about what people can do and the degradation that people can face because those children were so carefree. So there was, um, there were positives and negatives. She was glad she didn't live there, but she wondered just how free she would be in her mind, how carefree had we stayed there.
Anthony Scaramucci: (14:39)
But why you say something fascinating? The writing's excellent. By the way you say that this journey, uh, it's your own unique journey, but it's American. It's an journey. Tell us, tell us what you mean.
Don Lemon: (14:55)
Well, we went back as Americans expecting to have all of the luxuries that Americans have. You know, we get off the airplane if they're flying first class and we expect to get there and, and be in the four seasons and that's not going to happen or even to be in the holiday Inn. And that's just not what, what happened. Uh, I had been to Africa many times, but my mom had never been there. So she didn't understand the poverty that she would see. She didn't understand. Um, just how, uh, the, the, the lack of modern conveniences in many places that she would experience. And for her, it was real eye opening because she had never seen anything like that in America ever. And so we had a uniquely American experience where we expected everyone to cater to us and every, you know, everything to be ready for us and handed to us on a silver platter. We don't realize how, how you know, how good we have it here many times. Yeah.
Anthony Scaramucci: (15:50)
So it's an interesting dichotomy because there's, uh, there's a racially charged society. Uh, yet there's a lot of great things that are happening in America. A lot of aspirational things. And I, and I got from you when you use the word American, uh, to me, what got me goosebumps was you're here to inject hope. You're here to provide hope and you're here to move things forward. And so as an American who loves the country, you're about progress. Is that, is that what I'm getting? Am I getting the right?
Don Lemon: (16:21)
That was well, that wasn't from the C thing, the C thing was just sort of us going over. That was more about a personal experience in journey for us about how we felt personally, the door of return was that part of it was, that was the optimism part that we were carrying forward, that, that our ancestors, um, had, had had this horrible journey and experience in America. And then we came back to the Homeland and that we were going to carry this experience back with us, to inspire other people and to teach other people that they were survivors. And that there was,
Anthony Scaramucci: (16:55)
I probably can. I probably can joining them a little bit, but again, I guess my,
Don Lemon: (17:00)
But there was a history just beyond being a slave in America. That's all I wanted
Anthony Scaramucci: (17:05)
To say. Mala, it's brilliant writing. I want to shift gears a little bit to something contemporary to get your reaction that George Floyd murder was a tipping point for a lot of black people, a tipping point for white people, frankly, I think that the graphic depiction of that on television, the eight minutes, 40 plus seconds of that, uh, we literally are watching a murder before our eyes. Why was that incident uniquely catalyzing for the fight against racism because you and I have both known of those types of stories. Uh, and we had the situation with Rodney king when we were younger, but this seemed to be a real tipping point. Why do you think that was,
Don Lemon: (17:50)
I mean, had you ever seen anything like that? We listen again, we grew up were pretty close to the same age. You hear about it, right? People tell you about their experiences, and if you don't have to experience it, if it's never happened to you, then it doesn't exist. And then all of a sudden we're sitting at home in quarantine, not knowing many people where their next dollar was going to come from. If their loved one was going to survive. COVID if they were going to catch COVID what the next day or the next week or the next year was going to look like. So we're all open and vulnerable. And then on our television sets or on our, uh, these little computers that we all carry around in our pockets, these cell phones, we saw a man died before our eyes and someone sit there and just put their knee on his neck and Rob them of the God-given right, to be able to breathe. And there was no denying what we saw. And there was no denying the experience of African-Americans, especially African-American men at the, at the hands of some police officers. That's why it resonated so much. We were open and vulnerable and we couldn't take our eyes off
Anthony Scaramucci: (18:55)
Well. And I think you, you did an amazing job during that very tragic event, explaining it to the American people. Um, you're the rare black primetime host and, you know, look, I'm just looking at it objectively, Don, it's a very white industry. So how do you use your voice to cut through the noise and communicate to people about the systemic racism that we see?
Don Lemon: (19:20)
Um, I honestly, Anthony, that's a, that's a great question. And you know, it's tough, right? Because I, I'm not only representing myself, I'm representing a company as a company that can get sued or get, you know,
Anthony Scaramucci: (19:32)
Yeah. You're on a balance beam. You are, you are, the RC won't know this reference, but you're in the Nadia Comaneci, a broadcaster, you know, he's, he's Google, he's Googling her right now, lemon. He has no clue, but you know, you're on that balance beam every night and you're trying to strike the right chords of realism and authenticity, but you're also trying to wake up a group of people in our society that, you know, maybe they just haven't experienced it as graphically as you have, or, you know, people living in inner cities, et cetera. So how do you do it?
Don Lemon: (20:07)
I'm there for a reason. I'm there one because, uh, I think I do the job pretty well. I think I, you know, I'm a pretty, I do a pretty good job of anchoring a television to a show, but also, uh, I'm there because of my experience. That's what diversity is about. Well, I look,
Anthony Scaramucci: (20:21)
Look, you're, you're, you're being modest. Get you, do you do a great job? And let me tell you why. I think you do a great job. And this is just my observation of you, even when you were blasting me. Okay. When I was the white house communications director, and unfortunately I was trapped inside the Trump hotel watching you, and you were just blasting me. I was looking at this guy said, you know, this guy has a point, okay. I have to figure out how we're going to change the narrative. Here can remember taking my pen out, watching you blast me. And I was writing down how we were going to, I have to try to figure this out because a lot of the stuff that you were saying was true and you do it in a diplomatic way. Okay. But, but, so you're very good at what you do. So just cut right through it. Tell us, tell us in your mind editorially, what you're working on before you get off before the light, the red light goes on.
Don Lemon: (21:12)
Well, I, I listen one, I have to do my research and I have to know what I'm talking about. But two, now I've gotten to a place where I can speak with authority and to be quite honest, you and your former boss, uh, gave me, um, a sense of authority and urgency that I didn't have before, because I had to speak truth to power. Um, I always had to do that, but in this instance, in his instance, I had to make my voice louder and clearer. And so when I, when I go on the air, I have a responsibility to tell the truth. Not only to the people who look like me, especially to the people who look like me, but also to all of America, because all of America needs to hear that. And if I don't do it as the only black person in primetime joy, Reed is early prime. We are the only two people who share that space. And I did it for seven years by myself who is going to do it, Anthony Scaramucci. So I had to lean in and then, you know, take the slings and arrows and then worry about being fired or going too far. That, that is, that was second nature. So, um, that's how I feel. That's, that's where I am. That's why
Anthony Scaramucci: (22:22)
I admire, I want, I want to go back to an interview. I was at Atlanta, Georgia, you were interviewing Donald J. Trump, then candidate for president. He was describing the situation with Megan Kelly. I'm not going to go into what he said. It's not worth it. Uh, but you know what I'm talking about? And I, you know, and this is a poor reflection on me, by the way. So I'm just going to be very open about it. When I was watching him, I was like, okay, he can't be serious. This has gotta be part of a, you know, an act. He can't be serious, but you saw it seriously. And I guess I didn't. And a lot of people, frankly, didn't, that's my bad. I have to own that for the rest of my life. But was that an inflection point for you or did you know the nature of things prior
Don Lemon: (23:11)
To that interview? Um, that was an inflection point to me, but you know, you do the math and you, you, you do the calculus in your head, like, oh my gosh, what should I, how should I handle this? What should I do? And I didn't want to jump in on what he said in that moment and change it into something that it wasn't. And I didn't want to be a part of that moment in the sense that I wanted his words to speak for themselves and let people digest it the way that they, they should. And then I go back and I said, should I have called them out, said whatever. And then every people say, you know, I got what you were doing. So
Anthony Scaramucci: (23:44)
Listen, it done. That's a couple, that's gotta be four and a half years ago. I remember it vividly, maybe five years ago, five years ago, five years ago. So I remember it vividly and it left a big impact on me. You write in the book more or less. I'm paraphrasing now that Donald Trump didn't invent racism, but he made it more, uh, open. He was more almost like unashamed to openly express it live according to his prejudices. Uh, you write that, uh, he was like a symptom that alerted you, Don lemon and others for that matter to an underlying disease. Tell us what you mean by that.
Don Lemon: (24:21)
Well, that's what he was the percent rating. I think if you go down a couple more sentences, I think he said, I think I said the percent rating also, or tumor or something that drove us into the oncologist's office. And so that we could diagnose the problem and then take care of it. So that's, um, that's how I thought about it. He, he exposed, we, we know who the racists are. We know that the racists are, there are more racist in our society. And, and then we realized, we know that there's a resurgence of neo-Nazis and all of that, which would, I think would have been hidden. Um, if it had not been for Donald Trump, because those people felt that he was giving them legitimacy, how do you say it? He had become their imprimatur, right? We gave them a stamp of approval. And so, um,
Anthony Scaramucci: (25:06)
You were saying the quiet things out in the yellow bin. And they were like, okay, loud. Now we can say this.
Don Lemon: (25:11)
You can say the same. We don't have to wear hoods. We can wear khakis and polo shirts and March down city streets in the middle of the day, or, you know, an early evening with Tiki torches and we can do it with pride. And so that's what he did. And now we know, I don't know about you, but I want to know, I would rather know what someone is, where they're coming from, rather than you hiding your hand.
Anthony Scaramucci: (25:34)
Yeah. Some of it's so ugly down there. Sometimes I say, Jesus, I don't want to know that much, but I get, I get the point that you're making
Don Lemon: (25:42)
I'm from the south. I grew up in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. The Klan used to hand out literature, Anthony in front of my high school, on the weekends, we did not have schools sponsored. Um, except for sporting events. There was no crime. There were no parties. There was nothing like that because they didn't want the racist mixing. There was a big Baptist church across the street where the clan would handout literature. My best friend lived next door to the grand wizard of the KKK, not next door, like in a house, but on a giant, giant pieces of property, you know, land acres and said he was the property next door. So I know racism, but I know that when I was growing up, people hit it or they secluded themselves. They lived in places and they dared black people to live there. They didn't want black people to live near them. And then when that started to encroach, it kept moving further up. You had the white flight, so people kept hiding and moving and hiding and, and, and now you can't right, you cannot do it. And so now I believe that we are in the death throes of white supremacy in this country, simply because of demographics. And the proof of it is the reaction that people have had to this election and to Donald Trump. And the biggest evidence I have is the insurrection that happened on January 6th.
Anthony Scaramucci: (26:57)
Amen. So we'll, let's go to that for a second. And then I'm going to turn it over to the young millennial. He's not even generation Z or where the hell you just called yourself. This guy is like fresh from the
Don Lemon: (27:08)
Biggest younger than millennials, right?
Anthony Scaramucci: (27:12)
He's like a hundred years younger than you. And let's just go to, let's go to this question about the insurrection. Uh, it's tied into the racism. It's tied into the dishonor of our democracy because ultimately you had a group of people, uh, that are feeling the heat that demography is changing. And, uh, they didn't like it. They didn't like the outcome. So give us your reaction to the insurrection.
Don Lemon: (27:40)
My reaction was I was sitting there watching, saying, oh my God, this is, as I write about in the book, if we don't deal with that, I write about Kristen Cooper and Amy Cooper remember in the park with the dog. And she called the cops on the guy because I, you know, he's a black man. And he said that he's bothering me in the park. And I write in the book about, unless you deal with this in a substantial way, then someone's going to come back with a bigger dog. Well, the bigger dog was the lie about the election that it was stolen. And then the bigger dog after that was the insurrection. And then who knows what the next bigger dog will be. And so what is that going to be a takeover of the government, a martial law, whatever. I don't know, you know, racist, marching down every major street in the country.
Don Lemon: (28:23)
I have no idea, but, uh, from the beginning I knew I knew what it was when I saw it. I knew when I saw his speech, that it was going to turn violent and I was sitting there watching it saying, oh my God, I cannot believe this. And you know, the first thing I saw was I, the first thing I thought was, I remember this last summer when there were black lives matter protestors in front of the white house. Uh, and they were gassed by the president or whoever. Um, William Barr, the justice department ordered them to be gassed. The president could make, could make a photo op in, in front of a church with a Bible. And then there were also black lives matter protestors who had gone to the Capitol that summer March did not try to go in, did not try to overthrow the government or overturn an election. Um, and then you had these guys do it. And I knew that they didn't get shot. They were able to go into the Capitol because they weren't black. If they would have been black or Muslims are Latinos, they would have either been shot. There's no way they would have let them in the Capitol. And these people, a lot of them just marched right into the Capitol. Senator, Ron
Anthony Scaramucci: (29:30)
Johnson would have been very fearful of them, but of course he was not fearful of the white people that were trying to kill Mitt Romney and Nancy Pelosi. So, and then he stands with the highest level of ignorance, uh, saying, what are you talking about? Why are you throwing the racist card at me? And so, I mean, we have a lot of that. What do you think of, I, I was about as a Paul does, you could be at that. I was embarrassed for him and his family. Uh, the fact that that's on tape forever is a stain on his family in terms of his lack of awareness and his lack of, uh, judgment about what's going on in our society. Uh, before I turn it over to John, one last question you're never
John Darcie: (30:15)
Going to get to ask about, because time's up,
Anthony Scaramucci: (30:18)
I'm cutting. I'm cutting into your time too bad. Okay. What do we do? What do we say to our kids? Give me something to lean on aspirationally. What do I say to my kids? Because your skin color is a little bit darker than mine and your hair is a little bit tighter and colder than mine. Not much in the winter. No, that's true. I'm from, I'm from, oh, you know, my family is
John Darcie: (30:42)
Tan, so he's suffering.
Anthony Scaramucci: (30:44)
I have no, I've got no spray, but I got a lot of Botox. Everybody take it easy. I'm still asking the questions. Okay. So, so tell me something aspirational. You've got a little bit more of a kink in your hair. Your skin is a little darker than mine. Uh, but I see you where I see myself, how do I, how do I, how do we make that happen for our country? How do we relax people that we are the same? What is the big deal?
Don Lemon: (31:13)
So when you said you see me and you see me as yourself, that means that you see my humanity, right? So we all need to start seeing each other's humanity, respecting each other's, humanity and loving each other. And then that it becomes that much harder to denigrate someone. It becomes that much harder to put your knee on the neck of someone. It becomes that much harder, um, to treat someone differently or to discriminate against them. If you see their humanity, which means you have to be in some, some, some sort of a relationship with them, uh, a friendship, uh, at least in acquaintance, and maybe even romantically to people who are of different ethnicities. So I think that is the thing that you should teach your kids. You should teach your kids to get friends and to be around people who are not just like
Anthony Scaramucci: (31:57)
Them. Exactly. And because then you you'll, you'll find that we're really not that different. Go ahead. And Mr. More,
Don Lemon: (32:03)
One more thing. You have to teach them. You've got end school. I think they need to teach kids the true history of this country and the, um, the contributions of African-Americans, which are often left out of history books and kids don't know it. And by the time those kids become adults, they wouldn't try to overturn an election by, by, um, storming the Capitol because they are basing their history and their knowledge on lies about the country.
Anthony Scaramucci: (32:30)
Well, well, well, very well said. I always recommend Jill Lapore pours book, these truths. Uh, it is quite a study, quite a graphic examination of the good in the United States, but also the perils and some of the bad. Go ahead,
Don Lemon: (32:44)
Mr. Darcie. All right. That's all the time I have guys. Thank you. See you later.
John Darcie: (32:48)
Can Anthony and send my contract. I get at least one third of the show. It's a bunch of crap, but, uh, yeah. Thank you for, uh, the same
Anthony Scaramucci: (32:55)
Agent as I am. That's why I don't have a television gig. Okay. We need to get lemons agent, but go ahead. Keep going.
John Darcie: (33:03)
I grew up in North Carolina, we were talking before the show, you detected still a lingering, a Southern accent. You grew up in Louisiana. You know, there's different types of racism that exists in our society. There's deep south, you know, handing out KKK flyers racism. And there's a nimbyism, you know, I think I live in New York now on long island. There's a natural segregation that takes place a voluntary segregation. If you will, where there's not maybe as much mixing of races here in New York, a blue state, a supposedly progressive area as there was when I was growing up, going to public high school in North Carolina, what are the different types of more sort of pervasive, quiet forms of racism that you think we need to chip away at in terms of, you know, nimbyism not in my backyard type of racism. And how do you experience that in day-to-day life? Not in a way that's in your face, people wearing hoods, but in a way that's just a little bit quieter and more pervasive.
Don Lemon: (33:55)
Well, I'm glad you talked about that. Cause I haven't heard nimbyism in such a long time that not in my backyard is, um, right. Uh, I think that you, you pointed out the main one is that is that we live in a place that is probably the most diverse place in the country, in the metropolitan New York area. And even, um, in the suburbs and people don't mix people, don't talk to each other and hang out and they ha the only time that they have any interaction is if they're forced to either, uh, in business or in schools. And then even there, they don't, you know, hang out with each other. That is one of the main solutions that I talk about, uh, personally, and that I want people to get out of this book is that you're the only way, the only real way you're going to do it is through relationships.
Don Lemon: (34:42)
And I know people say, oh, it's tough because people self segregate or, or we live in a polarized society. I say, John, it's not hard to meet other people. Look how I met Anthony. Anthony came into the green room or came onto the show. And what did I say to him? Or what did he say to me? Hey, would you like to go have a drink? You want to hang out afterwards, I'm having a party. You're invited come to my holiday party or come to come grill at my house. We're having a barbecue on Saturday or Sunday. That is not that hard to do. I don't care what anybody says. You can do that at any age and to get to learn about someone, because when you don't know people, you don't know them. And the only way you get to know them is it gets to know them, right? I mean, it's just as simple as that. It's, it's, it's simplicity. And so I think that that's the key that is really for me that quiet. Um, I don't want to call it flat racism, but it's, um, it is a racial blind spot, right? It is, uh, a step towards, as Anthony and I talk about all the time, a more perfect union, because again, nothing is going to get accomplished unless we all get to know each other as human beings. That's the first and major thing for me. Yeah.
John Darcie: (36:01)
It almost just, it feels like it's more convenient for people to just, you know, live in their bubble. And I think one of the things that the George Floyd incident did was say, we really need to confront this and actively educate ourselves. And the people around us, if we're really going to make a difference, it's not enough to be an idle bystander and watch this stuff happen. We have to be active participants. If we're going to teach people to love, you know, Nelson Mandela, as Anthony was alluding to earlier, people aren't born racist. You know, they have to be taught to hate. And if they can be taught to hate, they can be taught to love, which I think was,
Don Lemon: (36:32)
Let me tell you this, that I think people say that because, um, they want to make an excuse for the way that they've always lived, that they'd been living for a long time. And if, until you get out of yourself and you, um, you, you sort of breach that bubble or whatever it is of your comfort zone. Then again, it's not going to change. Look, I had a gay pride party. The June of 2019 Anthony Scaramucci was on the invite list. He couldn't Anthony, you didn't come. I don't remember. No. I came to that came to my pride party.
Anthony Scaramucci: (37:04)
I came to the pride party chore. So I didn't work in, I've been working on marriage equality with, with New York state since 2008. Of course I came to that.
Don Lemon: (37:14)
That's the thing I did not, not invite you to the pride party because you're a heterosexual man. I just said, Hey, we would love to have Anthony at the party. We had, um, you know, an open house for Christmas. We didn't say, well, we're going to invite this many white people, this many black people, this many straight people, this many Christians, this, whatever. We invited, every one I had a party. Remember I had the party and before the election, uh, oh no. During, after the election I had like a winter party. Yeah. You invited everyone. People were like your
Anthony Scaramucci: (37:44)
Engagement party at the townhouse that you were thinking about.
Don Lemon: (37:47)
You know, everybody was there. That was amazing. Everybody was there. I met another
Anthony Scaramucci: (37:52)
Person that used to pick on me. Okay. Joy basically. Yeah. No, not joy. Bihar. Uh, Dory Reed. Yeah. Joy. Reid. I met her in the living room at your party. I said, okay, let me go back. Let me go back to my Twitter feed. Joy got on. We had a great laugh and now I do her show. I mean, come on. I mean, that's how you break things down, man.
Don Lemon: (38:14)
That's what that's anyway. I'm sorry, John, go ahead.
John Darcie: (38:17)
And Anthony has a unique ability to make people that want to hate him. Not hate him when they spend enough time with them in a private setting. We also have that money too.
Anthony Scaramucci: (38:26)
Yes, exactly. And I'm a, like a fungus. I get stuck in your toe nail and I never go away. Okay. Lemon doesn't realize this, but he'll be talking to me when he's like 95 or so I'll be, of course I'll be 97 at that time go. And Darcie w
John Darcie: (38:39)
We try to keep the payoffs secret, Don. So thank, thank you for outing us there, but I want to talk about police brutality. So we talked about the George Floyd incident, but I think police brutality and policing is a very loaded topic. These days after the election president Obama talked about how the use of the words defund the police was not constructive in terms of trying to defeat Donald Trump, you know, but also on the other side on the right, you have just this hypocrisy around, you know, backing the blue and supporting police officers during the insurrection. You had, uh, insurrectionists beating police officers with signs that said blue lives matter, which was almost the height of parody in a tragic way. But you know, black people's experience, this is one of the conversations that really resonates with me, just listening to black people talk about their experience around law enforcement.
John Darcie: (39:27)
I've been pulled over before. I've had interactions with police officers, and I have never once felt threatened or unsafe because I've genuinely always felt they're trying to protect me. Whereas I think black people feel like police officers, not all police officers of course are sometimes trying to target them. But at the same time, I think the vast majority of police officers are there to serve and protect as, as, uh, as the slogan goes, how do we reform policing? And how do we avoid painting police officers with such a broad brush that alienates them? It just is such a complex topic. How do we tackle it? And we improve policing, uh, in a way that's constructive without demonizing the whole profession. Why say you
Don Lemon: (40:06)
Have to pick up this book because there's a chapter in there on policing where I talk about what they've done in Newark, uh, Ross Baraka. I think that talks about what they've done in Philadelphia. And there's a mention of San Francisco police chief as well on how they sort of revolutionize their police departments are in the process of doing so, listen, I'm not a policing expert, but I think what you, the way you start is is that you have to treat people with dignity. As, as I had been saying. And then also I think community policing is very important that police officers are from, or at least familiar with the community that they serve and that they're not seen as occupiers in the community that they're seen as part of the community. And they're there to be peace officers and not necessarily be occupiers. Um, you know, I have interactions with police officers, mostly for traffic tickets as an adult.
Don Lemon: (40:57)
Um, and I'm concerned as a person of means when I see a police officer, um, pull me over or in some way is looking to question me because I had experiences with police officers. I was racially profiled and I called the cops. The cops showed up and they thought the person that I call the cops on actually call the cops. And they were like, you go sit over there. And this gentleman called police. And then I said, no, excuse me. I called police. And you see that thing in their head, like, uh, like the world changes like in a second. Oh my gosh. Wow. Like, wait. Okay. So the black guy called the police on white guy. Wow. That's, that's interesting. So, um, I just think that police officers need to, um, need to know the people that they are there to protect. Remember, and remember that they're there to protect people, not necessarily, um, to throw people on the ground and, and treat them horribly. But listen, I also know that policing is very tough. I would not want to be a police officer. That's why I'm a journalist and not a police officer. I don't want that job, but in that job, you're supposed to know how to deescalate situations. And, um, and I hope the right kind of person is drawn to policing in the future rather than someone who just wants to crack heads.
Speaker 5: (42:14)
Well, Don's been a pleasure to have you on, I'm a huge fan of your show
John Darcie: (42:18)
All the time I did. We're running out of time. And I have to say, I only reason I questioned your judgment is maybe your booking department needs to revisit, uh, some of their decision making on their desks because you have Anthony frequently on your show and your ratings must plummet.
Anthony Scaramucci: (42:36)
Can I get the hell out of you? We have very good chemistry on that show. Okay. Anthony, call your mom. Do your mom going to know Tim, your mom. Dierdre, I'm just, I'm telling them
Don Lemon: (42:49)
The actors listening somewhere here. The more important
Anthony Scaramucci: (42:52)
Piece, the more important people, uh, above and beyond this particular Saul talk,
Don Lemon: (42:57)
The banks are very smart. I don't know why he does. He does. He always says that you're really smart. And he actually thinks Kellyanne Conway is really smart.
Anthony Scaramucci: (43:05)
Well, listen. I mean, I, I would agree
John Darcie: (43:07)
With the monkey thinks he's smart too, Don, you know, he's going to agree with you here.
Anthony Scaramucci: (43:11)
I, uh, I had, I hadn't talked to Kelly. Oh, you'll enjoy this part. I, I, uh, I ran into Kellyanne on a London based show in the evening and on a zoom. I hadn't seen her in four years, as soon as she was quite polite to me. But having said that, uh, I think she also respected the fact that, uh, I didn't let her, uh, former boss walk on me. Uh, I think, you know, so it was one of those interesting situations, but I want to hold the book up one more time before you go. Uh it's uh, this is the fire. Uh, Don, I gotta tell you it was a moving book. I don't say that because you're a friend. Uh, it was a moving book and I wanna encourage people to read it. And I think you made it digestible so you can get through it in an evening. Uh, and it's very well thought out and I think it will help people get to where we need to get to. And I want to get it in the hands of many people as possible. So thank you for writing it. And thank you for joining us on, on salty. How
Don Lemon: (44:12)
Many books did you buy? You bought it for your entire company, right? And all your,
Anthony Scaramucci: (44:15)
I did, actually, we, we did, we bought it from a, we bought a French brand. We bought it from the strand trying to help out the strand cause it's stolen. Independent bookseller, seriously went to the strand and lots of books. Yeah. We have a dealer with no, we have a deal with the SRAM. We buy it. We like buying books, you know,
Don Lemon: (44:31)
Good stuff, especially Don, it's a pleasure to meet you, Anthony and whatever.
John Darcie: (44:37)
It's a pleasure to be with you. And, uh, you know, this is the fire. I think it was a great title. As Anthony said, I'm hopeful that we can not take two steps forward. One step back. I feel like there's such an energy around this anti-racist movement today that I'm hoping that, that, uh, the fervor can continue and we can really make tangible progress over the next five to 10 years, sir,
Anthony Scaramucci: (44:57)
By the way, you make more money, not being a racist. I'm just telling you more diversity, more diversity on your team, better ideas, better energy. I don't get it. We gotta, we gotta push people, get the incentives. Right.
Don Lemon: (45:10)
You know, what's your, you got a nickname like mooch,
John Darcie: (45:14)
Just Darcie. Nobody calls me by my first name. It's Darcie. Yeah.
Don Lemon: (45:20)
Alright, got it. And Doris, thank you.
John Darcie: (45:23)
And thank you everybody for tuning in to today's salt. Talk with Don lemon of CNN out with a great new book. This is the fire talking about race relations in America. Just a reminder, if you missed any part of this talk or any of our previous salt talks, you can access them all on our website@sault.org backslash talks and on our YouTube channel called salt tube. Follow us on Twitter. We're at salt conferences are handled. That's where we're most active on social media, but we're also on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn as well, trying to do more on all those channels. So we would love a follow there and spread the word about these salt talks. We've made them free and accessible for everyone. We love growing our community and educating people on a wide variety of topics. None more important than how to end racism. So please spread the word about this talk and others that we host. And on behalf of, uh, the entire salt team, Joe Alito behind the scenes, our superstar producer, Anthony, uh, this is John Darcey signing off from salt talks for today. We hope to see you back here soon.