“I’m very interested in compounding compassion and compounding interest. If you widen your lens just a little, then you’ll learn things like the median cost for a payday loan, at a time when interest rates are zero, is 391%. That’s unconscionable.”
Valerie Mosley created Valmo Ventures to advise and invest in companies that add value to both investors and society. She recently founded BrightUp, a FinTech company focused on democratizing wealth building and wellbeing. Mosley sits on several boards including Eaton Vance’s family of mutual funds, DraftKings, Groupon and Envestnet. Previously, she was an SVP, partner, portfolio manager and investment strategist at Wellington Management Company, a $1 trillion money management firm. Mosley was named UK’s Powerlist International Person of the Year 2017, and one of the 50 Most Powerful Women in Business and one of the Top 75 African Americans on Wall Street by Black Enterprise Magazine.
Valerie Mosley has always sought to bring people together in order to share different perspectives and build understanding. As a freshman at Duke University in the 1970s, she put together talks on race relations after learning she was the first black person many of her white classmates had met. She left a successful career at Wellington Management Company to pursue a more impact-oriented career focused on wealth building and wellbeing. Mosley cites the stagnation of wages among the bottom 80% of earners and its negative effect in the face of rapidly rising costs in health care, housing and education. Teaching financial literacy to the underserved is designed to have a compounding effect on both wealth and quality of life.
LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE
SPEAKER
Valerie Mosley
Founder & CEO
Valmo Ventures
MODERATOR
Anthony Scaramucci
Founder & Managing Partner
SkyBridge
TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - Intro
3:25 - Leading race relations groups as a college freshman
7:13 - Importance of financial education in bettering society
17:36 - Democratizing wealth and well-being amid growing inequality
24:45 - Wealth disparities between white and black families
31:40 - Policy lessons learned and shifting generational trends
43:05 - Investing trends around technology, crypto and ESG
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
John Darcie: (00:07)
Hello everyone. And welcome back to salt talks. My name is John Darcie. I'm the managing director of salt, which is a global thought leadership forum and networking platform at the intersection of finance technology and public policy. Salt talks are a digital interview series with leading investors, creators, and thinkers. And our goal on these salt talks the same as our goal at our salt conferences, which is to provide a window into the mind of subject matter experts, as well as provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future. And we're very excited today to welcome a great investor who is investing in a lot of those big ideas that we love to focus on here at salt and that's Valerie Mosley. Uh, Val created Velma ventures to advise and invest in companies that add value, both to investors and to society.
John Darcie: (00:56)
She also recently founded bright up, which is a FinTech company focused on democratizing wealth building and wellbeing. She currently serves on several boards, including Eaton. Vance has family of mutual funds, DraftKings, Groupon, and invest net. Uh, previously she was a senior vice president partner portfolio manager and investment strategist at Wellington management company, which if you're not familiar and you're in the industry, there are about a $1 trillion global money management firm. Uh, Val is also on the board of new profit, which is a philanthropic, uh, venture capital firm. Valerie was named UK is powerless international person of the year in 2017 and also one of the 50 most powerful women in business. And one of the top 75 African Americans on wall street by black enterprise magazine hosting, today's talk is Anthony Scaramucci. He was the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge capital, which is a global alternative investment firm. Anthony is also the chairman of salt. And with that, I'll turn it over to Anthony for the interview.
Anthony Scaramucci: (01:59)
Well, Valerie, it is great to have you on we very much so appreciated. And so what John didn't say is that we get ratings on smalltalk talk because of him. So that was, he was tried as it was, it was a subtle undercurrent of that's totally fine, but you are a contemporary of mine. I'm counting on you to have a two on one sort of combated relationship here during this salt talk. But before we get there, tell me something that we wouldn't know about Val Mosley. If we didn't, you know, let's say you've got everything you can think of on Google Wikipedia. What would we not know about Val Mosley? It's the old fashioned question away from social media now,
Valerie Mosley: (02:44)
Right? I'm a lover of life. I'm, I'm a grateful giver. I'm the youngest of four from Tuskegee, Alabama. I lived in Germany. I studied Kenya. I lived in a dung hut. I taught financial literacy and Roxbury and Dorchester. And, uh, I think those are some of the things and I love leading and giving. And so things that might not show up, I brought together when I was at duke university as a freshman conversations between white and black, because so many people told me I was the first black person that they had ever met. And so I decided to have this conversation, I put signs up everyone, race relations. And I did that when I was 18. That's not on the resume. I just like bringing people together to talk and have different views. What
Anthony Scaramucci: (03:51)
Did you learn from that? But you know, you know, so you're 18, you are working on race relations. And so what did you learn from that?
Valerie Mosley: (04:00)
I learned that everyone at the end of the day, once the same thing and they have different perspectives and the perspective is not necessarily fact, it's a narrative and it's important to make sure that we have conversations so that generalizations are taken away and people can connect with the person. So in the middle of this crazy talk, there was a gentleman who didn't really like the fact that I was having it. Do you know what he says? He happens to be, African-American happened to be from a rough part of town. This is a long time ago. He said something crazy. Like if I had a gun right now, I would shoot every white person in this large circle. I'm 18, I'm a freshmen. And I said, wow, you know what? It's probably, I'm glad you had the, you felt like you could share how you feel. It's good that you're able to share how you feel. It's also good that people know that not everyone that looks like him feels the same thing and vice versa. So it's like the markets, there's a bid in the ask and there are people it's like, the markets are politics, there are different views. And what we have to do is just keep our spirit and our ears open enough to be able to hear somebody's view and still be very centered in your own. And I was really surprised that we're still having these conversations today.
Anthony Scaramucci: (05:24)
You thought it was going to be better when you were a kid at 18. You're like, all right, there's some racial tension here, but you know, X number of years later, it's going to be a lot better. I didn't want to date. I didn't want to date you or I, because I'm lying to people about my age vows. I didn't want to date how far back that was. So, but
Valerie Mosley: (05:42)
It was a long time ago and you do look like a baby, but,
Anthony Scaramucci: (05:46)
Well, I mean, thanks. I want to just, firstly, thank my dermatologist and all the Botox injections that he's given me over the years. Yes, exactly. At
Valerie Mosley: (05:55)
That time, I didn't sense that there tension. It was just that somebody didn't know, they said that I was the only black person that they had met outside of their nanny. And I thought, wow, this is duke. This is a long time ago. This is 1970s, late seventies. Um, and I thought let's just get together and talk so we can get to know each other
Anthony Scaramucci: (06:15)
Worse today from those talks, race relations better or worse today.
Valerie Mosley: (06:21)
I think, I think better yet. Economically in some cases it's worse, but better. I would say better.
Anthony Scaramucci: (06:33)
Well, I mean, you know, we had Don lemon, he's a very good friend of mine on, uh, the CNN anchor. Uh, he feels it's better. Uh, and he wrote, he wrote a very fascinating best-selling book about it. Um, he said that in a weird way, Trump has exposed a lot of stuff that was going on and perhaps that could even make it better. Um, before I get into my other questions. So I want to go to Roxbury, Massachusetts, because that's the south side of Boston, primarily African American community. I went to Tufts, my roommate, Raul Silva, uh, was from Roxbury, Massachusetts. So I know a lot about Roxbury. How did you end up in Roxbury, Massachusetts?
Valerie Mosley: (07:14)
I believe that to whom much is given much is required. And I just feel like I've been so blessed in my life. And I realize that education is power. And you asked me earlier, what's different about me. What somebody would know is that the first part of my life, I grew up in inner city Philly until I was 12. And the second part, my father was in the service, uh, in the army. And when he came out of Vietnam and service as a major, he was given some stock options to become the head of security at the Franklin mint in Philadelphia. And those stock options went up in value and that gave him the opportunity to move his family of four with his wife to another area, which is still Philadelphia, but surrounded by grass instead of cement. And that exposure made all the difference in the world, um, to me, because it started planting seeds of what was possible.
Valerie Mosley: (08:09)
So I felt like I've been really blessed. I'm at Wellington, I'm a partner on Manny, but managing billions of dollars. Let me make sure that I share what I wish I had learned. And I met some teachers and they told me about their class. And so my son and I went over and just started teaching financial literacy. And we started showing, showing the power of compounding interest. How much could you make? Like literally somebody that's 16, you'll appreciate this. We're in Roxbury, we're in the class. I say, how much can you make during the summer? And I asked two different classes and they said, oh, we can. I said, and safe. They thought, um, $1,200 at the time. I said that a hundred dollars a month. Let's let's, let's, let's push this out a hundred dollars a month. Can you make $25 a week? You put that in the calculator at 16, a hundred dollars a month by the time.
Valerie Mosley: (08:59)
I mean, and by the time they would retire, I know it's a long time if they just did that. And they never changed that they would've saved roughly $80,000 and they would have made $725,000. And they're being able to see what was free. Money was really impactful. And suddenly they understood compounding. They understood convexity. They understood things that help them with their math. And so we, we worked with the federal reserve and started teaching the teachers how to teach the kids, the em, and money and the math behind the magic of growing money. And that's what brought me there. It was fun
Anthony Scaramucci: (09:38)
Since fat is fascinating. I always tell the kids about the magic penny. You know, remember that conversation. If I gave you a $10,000 a day for 30 days or a magic penny that doubles every day for 30 days, while you start out not doing so well. Well, you're you get $10.8 million at the end of the 30 days, if you have the penny, uh, which sort of reinforces it for kids. Yes. So let me go back to why leave Wellington, you have this fabulous career you're doing amazingly well there so wildly. Well, it didn't strike out on your own. That's a really,
Valerie Mosley: (10:12)
Really good question. I love Wellington. It's a phenomenal firm. It's has a it's it's a trillion dollar plus asset management firm. I still have a very good relationship there. I believe that to whom much is given, we talked about this before much is required. And, and, and I just felt like I loved what I was doing. I'm adding value to portfolios, but I, and for clients, but I felt like my wingspan was a little bigger and I wanted to add value to society and to life. And sometimes you, you can get put in a box in a farm. And I just, if you're an investor, you you're betting all day, you have a view and you take a bet and I just want it to bet on me. You live this life once. And there are other things that I felt like I can do, and I just wanted the time to do it and try it.
Valerie Mosley: (11:01)
And you know what happened? I had this conversation with my daughter and I said, you know what? I'm very spiritual. I said, my instincts have never led me wrong. And I said, in something tells me I'm supposed to leave. And I said, but I have three children. I'm a single mom. You guys are about to two were in college. You're about to go to college. And she says to me, in the morning, you trust your instincts either you trusted or you don't. And I just started laughing as I, she left to go onto to, uh, she was leaving to go to, to a high school. And I told her later that it's one thing. If you're walking across, I told her this too, if you're walking across, uh, uh, I said, let's say that we're at the, um, the grand canyon and you've got to walk across it on a rather narrow and you practice it all the time, but it's a narrow bore that you're walking past.
Valerie Mosley: (11:52)
And, and I said, and if you, if it's over the grand canyon, the risks are different. And so you have to have risk adjusted returns. And her Quip at the time was either you trust instincts. So you doubt mom. And I just felt like most people who are upset at the end of their life, there's a study that was done for people who are in their nineties and their eighties. What do they regret? They don't regret what they tried. They don't regret what they tried and failed. They regret what they never got to try. And I knew that there was some things inside of me that I just wanted to try, and I couldn't do it while I was at Wellington. And one of the things I wanted to do is to take my kids on this trip around the world at a time when they could at three and a half years apart. So the day after I left Wellington, Wellington, um, gifted part of it, I took them on this trip around the world because I want to, to expose them to things.
Anthony Scaramucci: (12:41)
What was the most fascinating place in the world that you traveled to with your kids? You get, you get high marks for Italy, by the way, I'm just going to point that out, but you don't necessarily say Italy, although you could name one of the grandkids, Anthony, you're just pointing that out as well. What, what was the, what was the best place?
Valerie Mosley: (13:04)
The middle east in general was just fascinating because we were in Jordan during Ramadan, we went to Israel. The tension in Israel was just incredible between the different groups and you can't read about it. We heard about Palestinian saying that they don't get water during the middle of the week, and we don't hear about that. And then we went to, um, uh, um, uh, a traditional, um, dinner on Friday and skipping the name. Um, we were in the, we went to a Hasidic Jews, families dinner, and the family members there didn't know what was happening either. So it was, for me, it was just fascinating to be in the small place like Israel, which was just beautiful, that those who were there felt very strongly about certain things, but they were unaware of what I was hearing from the workers who happened to be Palestinian around the rationing of the water.
Valerie Mosley: (14:05)
That was fascinating. Um, and Jordan, we went to the, uh, my friend was, uh, Stu Jones went to duke and he was the ambassador to Jordan. And we got to go to the refugee camps and see the technology where people were using the irises as a way of identifying who's who, so who should get funding or not. So the technology in the middle east, and we just loved, I just loved the pyramids. It's just a really fast, it's the only of their seven original wonders of the world that remain an order of magnitude. And so my kids in terms of structure, they enjoy that in terms of the people, um, they enjoyed, they, they enjoyed, I should ask them, they enjoy Trinidad and they enjoyed meeting people that knew each other from college at this dinner in Jordan. And that was sort of interesting to see how small the world can be. Um,
Anthony Scaramucci: (15:09)
Great it's great stuff. And the, you know, the Israelis, obviously a dispute that with the Palestinians, but the Palestinians, if you go into their territory, they have those big black water vessels on their rooftops to protect themselves because they are getting their municipal water from the, uh, the state of Israel. So I don't know, it's a hard, it's a hard issue. I'll tell you, I, you know, you would love to see these people get along because they're descendants of each other, you know, but it's the same thing with the, uh, blacks and whites. There's really only one human. There's really only one race. It's the human race. We, we have to try to figure out a way to do this. Yeah,
Valerie Mosley: (15:48)
It is. It is one race. And, and as someone, as you, as, as a, as an investor, right, there is a bid, there's an ask, there's a viewpoint that says, how do you value this? But everyone wants the same thing. So when we were driving around with this Christian, Palestinian, he was pointing out the green parts on the roof. And he says, this roof shows that that's suggests that they're getting water regularly. We don't get water regularly. And I said, that, can't be, I just thought that can't be. And then when we were in this very nice hotel, I decided to ask some of the workers and they said, yeah, it's true. And I was surprised by that. And then when I asked the people who were living in Israel, they didn't know. I found that just really fascinating. Um, it's a separate issue. It's complicated issue, it's a charged issue. Um, and I personally found that interesting, but my son studied in Spain and we got a chance to, and so instead of that goes to, and we got to meet with his mother and father and his family and some of the people he studied with. And that, that was a highlight as well.
Anthony Scaramucci: (16:53)
So you've got this social conscience, you've got this purpose in your life. You've obviously done amazingly well. And you're starting a company now called you've started it. Of course, you founded the company called bright up, which is aimed at democratizing wealth and building people's wellbeing. And you're also trying to bring financial wellness to underserved populations. So tell us about how it's going, tell us about your vision for this and how you're going to execute. Thank you very much.
Valerie Mosley: (17:27)
It's a B to B to C company again. Yes. Democratizing. Well, well building and wellbeing. What we know is that stress is the number one cause of the costs that companies have related outside of benefit costs. It's it's, it's it's stress-related and the number one source of stress is financially related. And one of the things that I did at Wellington is that I chaired the firms industry strategy group. And you can imagine that a long time ago, the high yield group was not talking to the small cap manager, even though there was a lot of information in the fixed income markets regarding credit default swaps, it wasn't altogether obvious or within the consideration of equity investors. And so post telecom debacle, when analysts were still saying by, at and T over sprint, the CEO and my boss said, you know what? I think we need an industry strategy group.
Valerie Mosley: (18:31)
And so we put this together and it was great where for the first time people who were investing in silos got together, and we decided to have a longer term view strategically thinking about what are headwinds that are facing some industries and tailwinds propelling others. So when I left, it did the same thing. And if you look at wealth, I think that there are a couple of challenges out there. We have, we have, uh, we have additional pandemics. Um, Anthony, I think it's, uh, low self-worth and low net worth. So I started peeling apart. What are some of the challenges around building the wealth? And it's pretty amazing that right now, 69% of all Americans struggle to make a thousand dollar unexpected expenditure, 69%. It's not a small issue. Then I started to look a little more closely, and I found out that if you look at the income growth, real wages over the long run, the top 20% of earners have had a healthy increase in income, the bottom 80%. So let's talk about what is underserved the bottom 80%, like both has been really quite marginal and
Anthony Scaramucci: (19:41)
I can think syrup, but why do you think that is though? Why is there an income differential and why, why have we seen one group growing and the other one stagnating,
Valerie Mosley: (19:53)
I think it has to do with information and access. And so I talked to you a little bit about my story and growing from, um, sort of a gang infested Philly to a space where you have more opportunity. There's more information, it's information, there's trust, there's education, there's the costs. And so let's, let's double click on that for a second. If the revenue is growing really rapidly for the top 20% of earners, and it's, um, I'll give you some numbers. The top 1% had a growth over the last 40 years of 345%. That's the top 0.1%. The top 1% real wage growth over the last 40 years has been 160%. The bottom 90% has grown 26% over the last 40% and real wages. Now that's using the regular CPI. If we look at the components of the CPI, the components of the CPI for, um, medical care is only 8.9%, but the medical care costs have grown over a hundred percent and since 2000.
Valerie Mosley: (21:01)
So if you were to take what people are experiencing, the medical costs, the housing costs and the educational costs, it's sword. So on a usage of justice basis, the earnings of the bottom 90% of Americans has actually been pretty mild at. And, and, and, and you asked me another question that something that you might not know, I'm the youngest of four. My brother was four years, excuse me, 10 years, my senior, Jamie Carlson Mosley called him Jamie. He loved me and I adored him. My sister is nine years. My senior, she went to Villanova while I'm at Wellington, doing quite well, just figuring out strategy stuff and investing in loving it. I learned that my brother is unbanked and I heard about the unbanked. He went to school and then he left for reasons unique to our family and, um, and his situation. And he struggled a bit financially and he's such a good person.
Valerie Mosley: (22:03)
So his current level of, well shouldn't define his worth or his worthiness to learn how to become more financially healthy. So I say, come on, Jamie, let's get banked. And he gets banked and he's so conscientious. He's so conscientious. And then he doesn't realize though that if his, if his income goes below a certain amount, they start charging fees. And so he had thought he had money in the bank, spent it not very much. I think it was $25. And he had an overdraw and that overdraw drawn fee was quite high. I think it was 30 or $35. He was devastated the whole weekend. He's like, ah, something's really wrong. I go downtown. And I find out that my children I'm at the bank, my three children are not nearly as conscientious. They're late teenagers. And their account was a tied to mine that they overdrew. And they were not nearly as conscientious. And I say, all my man, I've got to talk to my children. I'm telling my banker this. And she's like, no problem, click. And she erases it. And these fees, each one of them had some of them. And so the fees are approaching $200. She said, yes, female
Anthony Scaramucci: (23:08)
Adapt my children by the way, because I get hit with this, I would say twice a week. So when I drop them off, I'll drop off my adult children at your home later today, come on. Hopefully I'll have a wooden spoon in there somewhere where you're going to whack them. Exactly.
Valerie Mosley: (23:25)
I said, I'm going to talk to these kids. And she says, no problem. She wipes it out because I'm perceived as a profitable client. Right. And what happens is because the asset management, the wealth management industry, nothing's wrong with the wealth management industry, they get paid a percentage of the assets that they manage. So they focus on people who already have assets and the top 10% of asset owners, stocks, and bonds, um, own 84% of the, of those assets. And so naturally they're going to focus on those who have the assets. I get it
Anthony Scaramucci: (23:58)
Because I was saying this the other day, you know, I remember this when I was in school, I was at Harvard law school. I was like, you guys think you're that much smarter than the kids in my neighborhood. You're actually not. Okay. I've got buddies of mine putting in sheet rock and clamming out and oyster bay that are as smart as you. They just didn't have access to the same environment or through luck and trial and tribulation. They didn't end up like me dropping into that environment. Some of it was accidental. Some of it was providential, you know? So I, I agree with you widening the widening. The access is super important. Yeah.
Valerie Mosley: (24:33)
And access and information. And now technology is a game changer. So I'm on the board of Envestnet investments, a great firm. They, they, they fuel and support a third of the independent registered investment advisors. So the $4 trillion on the asset management platform. And I shared with the CEO, this, um, the color of wealth study by the Boston fed, what do you think the median wealth might be for white families in the Boston
Anthony Scaramucci: (25:04)
Net worth, but so, well, I would say 700,000 probably way off.
Valerie Mosley: (25:11)
Okay. But it's okay. It's a guess. Um, they over index and this is your, your, your response is common actually. Uh, because they over-index to national average. And when this report came out as 250,000. Okay. And that's higher than the national average, what do you, what do you think it might be? Is it, they did a study of, it's kind of rare. One, one in Boston, one in Los Angeles. What do you think the net worth would be for African-American families? Just to use it as an example?
Anthony Scaramucci: (25:44)
Well, you know, I'm going to say something and then it's probably going to reflect poorly on me for saying, but I think it's very low, probably 10,000 less. No.
Valerie Mosley: (25:51)
And actually you're in the right direction. So it doesn't reflect negatively on you. It's just an unfortunate fact. The answer was $8, $8. Okay. 250,000 to $8. And I didn't know that either. I said, you've got to be kidding me. Let me
Anthony Scaramucci: (26:06)
Just say something. It's very obvious to you and obvious to me. So that, that creates some anger. You know, I mean, we w I, you don't have to go to 16, 19 and go through the whole story of racial injustice in the United States for 400 years, you can just look at the current economic situation and look at the access and the information, and look at the, you know, the institutions that we've set up, that they benefit certain people that don't benefit other people. And that would create naturally some level of dissatisfaction. Is that fair to say
Valerie Mosley: (26:39)
A hundred percent. That's, it's fair to say. Um, and I think I'm pretty analytical. I like to think about, as you say, what causes these things, sometimes it's trust it's information, it's access to education. Um, and, but there's some things that are changing right now that leave me really optimistic. And again, everyone wants to be able to earn a livable wage and be able to take care of their families. And it's more challenging for some more than others. And one of the things that I'm really excited about, we talked about, um, right up, I believe that we can give more people access to wealth, building strategies, and so bright up as a platform that offers a suite of services and make it avail. And we make it available to communities and corporations. So B to B to C is, is, is, is, is, is really business to, to, to, to business corporations, but also organizations, because you want to trust people.
Valerie Mosley: (27:42)
And most people don't have access to investment advisors because of how the pricing structure works. And we think we can change that, bring in advisors, bring in fairly price capital, and bring in education and information. And so we're really excited about that. And you asked the question about the ROI, how does that benefit? The employer? One we think is going to help with turnover and that's lower turnover. There's the business round table where 183 companies said that they aren't going to operate just for the benefit of their shareholders. They care about stakeholders. And two of the five statements they're referenced their employees. If you care about your employees, all of your employees, why not bring them benefits that will help them on the financial side. They don't get a lot of support. You don't get, as you mentioned, you don't get financial literacy in school and you don't get financial support outside of school.
Valerie Mosley: (28:40)
For the most part, if you're in a certain wealth bracket, and I'm saying the bottom 80% of well, um, creators and earners, and, and one other thing I wanted to bring up to you, I don't know if you wanted to bring this up. I love studying the markets and where people and where you get the biggest returns is. If you can go do your app, your research, if you can go where others aren't. So Mike Milkin bless his soul was brilliant at the time. And I know some people have different views about Mike. I think he's a genius. In many ways, Mike Milken identified that there was an opportunity because banks wouldn't lend to companies that were re rated below triple B. So I did some research and discovered a $3 billion case study $3 billion in conjunction with a top five bank for lending, for credit.
Valerie Mosley: (29:38)
Um, for debt consolidation, corporations can reduce their debt, comfy countries reduce their costs of debt. Why can't individuals. We do so their cost of debt. And for many people, if they have any debt on their FICO scores, which is very unforgiving, you can't get access to fairly priced capital. So there's a company that put $3 billion to work in conjunction with a top five bank, $3 billion, 50% of those loans. The bank said no to 650 scores and below, no, we aren't going to lend to, but this, this, this algorithm, the analytics said that they could separate the willingness to pay from the ability to pay. And so that these guys were ranked crime, they went ahead and gave the loans. And the loan losses were less than 3%. That's exciting. This is for debt consolidation. So if you have somebody has 27% credit card debt, and you want to refinance it at 12%, you just free up a lot of capital. And the lenders, um, had less than 3% loss. So I think that that is a huge opportunity.
Anthony Scaramucci: (30:50)
All right. So you're going to disintermediate this space and you're going to help people that are under-banked or perhaps lopsided in the, in the credit card area. Um, I, uh, I have to turn it over to this erstwhile millennials shortly. So I want to ask you a boomer question if it's okay. Cause we're both baby boomers. Um, did we screw things up because you know, when you go back to what you said about yourself at 18, or when I was 18, I had this impression of us as a generation that we were going to make things better. When I look upon the society. Now, I think that the debt that we took on and the way the politicians over promise and overspent and the fracture that we have in our society, that we make things better as baby boomers, or we make things worse.
Valerie Mosley: (31:42)
That's an interesting question, Anthony. I think that we're imperfect beings. So there's some things we did well, and there's some things we didn't do so well, I look at John Dorsey
Anthony Scaramucci: (31:53)
When you're saying that, does he look imperfect to you look at John Dorsey with that shocking blonde hair and that big spot, does he look like perfect?
Valerie Mosley: (32:00)
He does not look perfect at all, but no, I think, I think that, um, we we've made some mistakes, but I don't think we mess it up. I don't think there's a lot that we get from blaming and instead the mirror image of a crisis as an opportunity. And so where we've missed up, we have the opportunity to learn. And, and, and that's what I'm excited about. I'm actually really optimistic. You mentioned, you mentioned Trump. One of my fellow partners said, you know what I think Trump is as, as is one of the best things that could have happened to this country.
Anthony Scaramucci: (32:36)
Well, Don and Don lemon believes that. Yeah. Tell us what
Valerie Mosley: (32:40)
Well, things that were hidden are now have now surfaced and, and in any process, it's, it starts with, let's just be honest with where we are.
Anthony Scaramucci: (32:55)
Yeah.
Valerie Mosley: (32:56)
We have insights on so many different levels about in the
Anthony Scaramucci: (32:59)
Past, you're given a pass to our generation. You're saying we're okay. We didn't, we didn't, you know, $27 trillion of debt, but it's no problem. And, you know, we have this wealth and income disparity in the country, which really started in the Reagan era and has been exacerbated over 40 years. Well, you're not, you're giving us a policy fast and you're giving us a
Valerie Mosley: (33:24)
No, I wouldn't say that. That's fair.
Anthony Scaramucci: (33:27)
All right. So tell me, tell me what is fair. I want to be fair. Okay.
Valerie Mosley: (33:34)
Um, I have a tendency and a bias to give people the benefit of the doubt in general. And so I think that people tend to react to their world. And if you were in your bubble, you are so unaware of what's happening elsewhere. And if you're unaware, you don't respond. So what I'm very interested in is compounding compassion and compounding interests and teaching other people to do that. But compound compassion, because if you widen your lens just a little bit, then you will see and learn that the median things like the median costs for a payday loan at a time when interest rates are zero is 391% that's unconscionable. And that's only if somebody pays it back in two weeks. And if they don't, it's 521%, that's the rate, the APR that people who need access to cash the most don't get it. And so if you widen the aperture and you see that, wow, 90% of Americans over the last 40 years, their wages that will wage both has only been 26%, but mine, because I'm in the top 1% has been a hundred.
Valerie Mosley: (34:44)
And you know, when you know that, then you're less likely to be judgmental and say, oh, they just didn't get it together. If you do the analytics and say, oh, but the cost of education is increasingly beyond their reach or the cost of healthcare and, and, and, and medical care costs is, is just exorbitant. There's a reason why this happened. So I think that we are often as strong as our weakest link. So it behooves all of us to pay attention to this broader challenge. Um, for sure. And so I believe that we can, and that my call out would be to anybody who has been successful and you've profited. Now we can go from profit to purpose. And what do you do to make a difference? And I don't think it's rocket science, we just need the minds and, and, and, and, and then, and, and the intelligence and, and will to make a difference for a broader swath of people. And by the way, the person, well, I have another view, but I'll stop there.
Anthony Scaramucci: (35:45)
No, listen, I think it's very, I think it's very well said, but you have another view, please share it. Um,
Valerie Mosley: (35:54)
The person who's struggling and the Appalachian mountains are struggling with some of the same thing as individuals that might be in inner city that are struggling at the end of the day, they need to have an income that's livable, and they want to provide for their families. Now there's some other things that are going on that might give people advantages, but I believe that your current level of wealth does not define and determine your worth or your worthiness to become more financially healthy. And I think that the capital markets can really offer, um, some results. For example, if we find some creative ways, I used to buy these structures where there's a first loss. So if there's catalytic capital and there's foundation dollars, just put up a first loss of 5% or 10% against fairly priced loans. So the capital markets can come in and offer attractive returns and an environment where yields are so low, globally in a space where ESG trends are increasing at a time where there aren't very many impactful, attractive returns being offered in the fixed income space. So I think we can create win-win win solutions using catalytic and competitive capital.
Anthony Scaramucci: (37:16)
All of a sudden, I, I, I, not only do I agree with you, the other thing that often offends me is when people tell me, well, the people that are looking for jobs cause they were getting welfare. And so therefore it's more cost-effective to stay at home. There might be a fraction of those people. I'm not suggesting otherwise we have millions of people in our society, but I grew up in a blue collar neighborhood. People, my neighbor wanted to work, they got the work. And so when I hear somebody giving me that nonsense spiel, that's usually someone that has a platinum spoon in their mouth that never had an hourly job or w or live with people that had hourly wages. So, uh, but I doing, and I, and I agree with you. I get to turn it over to John and let him, let him ask some questions. There is sitting there looking perfect, but they have, and everything you can see it says, Val called you perfect. You know, that's going to bother me after this salt dog is over. Okay. You know that, you know,
Valerie Mosley: (38:10)
Thank you, Anthony. And, and one other thing that we talked about, so you grew up in a blue collar collar area. My, my sister is a nurse. She went to Villanova. She goes to get a car and I say, oh, what's your interest rate? And he said, it's a three year used car, 13%, 13%. Are you kidding me at a time? I get on the phone. I say, triple C rated companies don't have returns. Aren't getting offers like this. Like the next day he comes back to her and says, oh, we'll do it at 9%. So we need more people that are advocating for hardworking Americans. I believe.
Anthony Scaramucci: (38:44)
Well, 9% is still high for that low.
Valerie Mosley: (38:47)
It's still high, especially
Anthony Scaramucci: (38:49)
When they've got the security of the car. And they've probably got a personal guarantee from your cyst. Who's got a, who's got a full-time job, but this is the reason why a lot of these neobanks are working. Why SkyBridge, frankly, as an investor and a lot of these banks, because they're going to, dis-intermediate all that nonsense. You're going to help them do it. But go ahead, Darcie. I know you're dying. Ask the questions here, go ahead. Look at those teeth coming. Now, go ahead. Doors, fire away.
John Darcie: (39:14)
We'll since you're so focused on the generational aspects, Anthony, I'll start there. You talked about your brother, the differences in terms of the way he views the financial system versus your kids. Potentially. What differences do you observe generationally and what trends are you seeing among younger people and the way they think about financial wellbeing, that might be different from an older generation.
Valerie Mosley: (39:36)
Wow. Oh, that's a really good question. And so many different ways. One, um, I love this younger generation. They still don't trust. They don't trust the larger, um, financial institutions. Uh, crypto is leveling playing fields. We haven't even talked about crypto, but I believe that the younger generation is willing to take more risks. And I love that. And I believe that there are calculated risk. I think that the younger generations, they care a lot about what matters and, and they're less likely to want to walk the straight line and say, I'm going to do what I was told to do. But they think outside of the line and they're independent thinkers and say, no, I don't want to do that. My daughter, my daughter wants said, mom, I don't, this guy said I work so that I can live. Who wants to do that? Why don't you live?
Valerie Mosley: (40:35)
So you can work at something you really love. So this notion that why don't you try to find something that you enjoy and how do you give back, comes up over and over and over again. And naturally you have, I mean, I, I came in the, but anyway, this younger generation, I find one, they, um, they're more open. They've seen more things. Think about the, you asked the question earlier, Anthony did that, did our generation get it completely wrong? We were just closed and very narrow, like the number of gay and lesbian acceptance conversations that happen with the millennials. Centene seems to be much greater than they happened during our day. The millennials are much more diverse and they're a much more accepting of interracial marriages. Thank God,
Anthony Scaramucci: (41:30)
Thank God for that.
Valerie Mosley: (41:31)
Exactly. Then we just, then we have they care and they want to buy from companies that are doing things that, um, the right way, they care about the environment. They're a force to be reckoned with even something like tattoos. I'm not a fan just to be clear of tattoos, but if you are going to work with the younger generation, you have to keep your mind open because the majority have, or will have something on their body. So
John Darcie: (42:05)
I'll try to return expectations. Val, I want to dig into that a little bit more. So there's, there's all kinds of memes that go around on social media about, you know, investment returns and millennials and gen Z. You know, there's these, these massive price appreciation events that are taking place within cryptocurrencies, within technology companies, FinTech companies, a lot of different sectors. And it's almost like this, this old way of investing, uh, and even index investing that was in Vogue, you know, for a lot of the two thousands, um, seems to be going out the window because people are chasing these massive returns, you know, because maybe largely an environment created by easy money, low interest rates. Do you think, you know, first of all, what do you think return expectations for investors should be going forward? And do you think this era of outsized returns among technology stocks among cryptocurrencies and other speculative assets, do you think that will continue for a longer period of time? Or do you think maybe that younger generation is in for a expensive education here at some point?
Valerie Mosley: (43:05)
That's a very good question for one. I think that, um, I think that the stock market is overvalued and we're going to see a major correction. So if millennials, can we
Anthony Scaramucci: (43:15)
Record this and every time I ask a question, can you say it's a very good question.
Valerie Mosley: (43:20)
Yes, we can do that. Yeah, absolutely. Keep
Anthony Scaramucci: (43:22)
Going. And that's okay. It's just part of the job, Darcie Anthony Scaramucci comedy act. Okay. Keep going. I'm sorry.
Valerie Mosley: (43:29)
Um, yes, equity. I think that equity valuations are extended. Let's think about the, the basic asset classes. Bonds have come down so low. It's not a great place to be. And going forward, the returns are likely to be negative. Stocks are overvalued. There's going to be a correction. I do believe that the economy is going to get a big boost. So there may be a near term rally, but we're going to have some changes in the tax. This is my philosophy. We're going to have changes in the tax law. That's going to weigh heavily on, excuse me, the earnings. And as earnings go, prices typically go. And so I think we're going to have a correction. The multiples are still quite high. Interest rates are going higher. So we're going to have a correction. Crypto markets is still quite nascent and corporations are starting to move into the crypto world.
Valerie Mosley: (44:30)
I think as assets go, that's going to be a really attractive one. I think real estate is going to continue to be attractive. One outside of the commercial because many companies are we thinking who's going to come back and do we really need this space? And so what I think is really interesting and I'm excited about than the younger generation is that they're curious, and they're getting involved with investments and in the crypto world, I E Ethereum and Bitcoin, it gives much more access to people who would not ordinarily have access to have some upside. And I happen to believe that it's not just an, um, a gamble. I think that there's going to, I think that both will have some legs. It's
John Darcie: (45:17)
Literally taking the crypto a little bit more. You think that there's, there's upside to be had in Bitcoin and Ethereum are the two sort of bellwether, uh, players. Now in the crypto world, you have a lot of speculative crypto assets that are also performing well, uh, at various times around them. Uh, but you think this is part of a larger movement. Why do you think this is part of a larger movement? And, and, you know, let's say five or 10 years down the road, do you think we're going to see a major disintermediation of the entire financial system and the traditional banking system? I don't think it will.
Valerie Mosley: (45:47)
I don't think it will be a major disintermediation. I think that, I think that it is a significant force that people are ignoring and not taking the time to learn. And yet millennials and more diverse communities are paying attention to it's, it's, it's sort of like a freedom project for some, um, again, because it's global because, uh, um, because it's easy to get access to, you don't have to have a certain income level to be able to invest and to get outsize returns. It's getting attention. I do think that there's going to be a correction there as well. It does every so often there's going to be a sell off and that sell off, I think is an opportunity to buy. I do believe that, um, Bitcoin has, um, legs and I think it's DRM and polka dot and other, uh, the other other platforms where you can build on some functionality has a place in our investment world and we'll have a place in, um, um, in practical use. It's actually pretty fascinating. Well,
John Darcie: (46:51)
You've obviously done your homework on the crypto space, uh, talking about a few of those protocols and projects, um, that we're very interested in this space, as well as you may know, of having invested a significant amount of amount of money in a Bitcoin, uh, w with potentially other projects in the pipeline that I can't talk in a more concrete way about, uh, I'll
Valerie Mosley: (47:09)
Name, a few that you should probably pay attention to rally, I think is really fascinating because of the way that it empowers the creators. I think Falcon X is really sweet because Falcon X is giving the institutional answer to Coinbase. And it's just a matter of time before more start to pay attention to it. Yep. I know of some, yeah, I, I do think that there is a world in crypto. And if you think about the fact that there's been so much money supply, sometimes I hear people talk about the money supply and the fact that we put a lot of money into the, into the economy. And therefore we're going to have inflation that didn't happen during the financial crisis. So money, uh, money coming into the system does not necessarily translate into inflation. You've got to have the demand, you've got people who want to spend, and I think that that's going to happen now. So when you think about inflation and you think about where the stock market is, and you think about where the bond market is right now, you aren't likely to get very attractive, real returns in stocks or bonds, but I do think you'll get it in this store of value of Bitcoin. And I do think that real estate residential real estate will continue to rally. So that's why I liked that as an asset class. And what I love about the younger generation is that they're open to learning about and, uh, supporting
John Darcie: (48:32)
All right value. You're an enlightened boomer that that's great to have, uh, you know, people like you on the show. Cause again, we're, we're very sort of bullish on the asset class. Uh, last question. It's, it's another question about macro investment trends. So you're a professional investor with one of the most famous and, and high-performing groups, Wellington on the planet. And so you've obviously in addition to all the, all the work you're doing, sort of on the impact side, you're, you're trained as an investor. What other macro investment trends you talked about, the fact that you think the stock market at large is somewhat overvalued, but are there any other investment trends outside of crypto that you're particularly bullish on? For example, you know, we also really liked the FinTech sector more generally outside of even crypto. We've invested in some Neo banking businesses, as Anthony mentioned, like a chime, um, that's, that's creating a better experience for, especially if people are on the, on the lower income threshold, uh, we've invested in Klarna, which is in the buy now pay later space, which is re-imagining credit in a way that's less destructive for the average consumer.
John Darcie: (49:35)
Uh, we've also, uh, very bullish on the life sciences sector and, uh, raising a fund to invest in early stage, uh, sort of pre programmable biology is the general theme. But what areas of the market from a macro perspective are you most bullish on,
Valerie Mosley: (49:48)
I love the FinTech space, which is why I'm going into it. You guys should invest in us after we go for our next round. We had a, um, yeah, we were oversubscribed, um, for our seed round. So we'll come back to you when we execute. Um, um, I think AI is going to be pretty interesting. Um, the, if you talk to technologists, uh, the CEOs of companies they've talked about it, but they haven't done anything. It's only about a third of companies that have talked about it, have actually put it into practice. And so I think being thoughtful about, um, how that AI is used from a customer engagement perspective is sort of interesting. Um, I think that, I think that you don't do a lot in the real estate space, but I do think that there's a lot of, I think there's a lot going to happen there and in the creative real estate.
Valerie Mosley: (50:45)
So this is a little early, but, um, I think that 3d printing is going to be a really fascinating area because some housing costs have gotten too crazy and there's some creative ways to create green structures that are also affordable. Um, other broader trends. I think that what's, what's, what's, what's driven the stock market recently is we're going to see a shift from tech to value within the space. Um, longer-term macro trends. I think you're in it. It's it's for me, it's FinTech, it's ESG. So he takes something like a Bombus people care about the fact that the socks that you buy a sock and it's going to go to a homeless, then it's going to be underwear and then it's going to be other. And so because women and millennials care about companies that are compassionate, they care about companies that are going to help the green space or help with social SDG and E S and G I think is going to be all the rage going forward in terms of broader trends.
Valerie Mosley: (52:08)
One of the things that we did at Wellington is identify the greening of America long before this happened. We called out the fact that the auto sector was likely to implode because the world was getting increasingly flat and no one was paying attention to the OPEB liabilities. I think that's a huge trend. I think that, um, this wealth inequality is going to show up in a lot of places, which is why the FinTech, these FinTech neobanks are, are thriving because millennials and others were thinking about, I don't want to do things the old way and I want to try to invest. So I love that space. Um, another really space that I'm really excited about is, is, uh, cyber cyber security from a macro space. There's a, there's a, there's a technology out there called quantum, um, physics where the keys on the end of the, um, lock on the end of the chains instead of being math based so that it can be tackled by quantum computing, that it can be protected using physics. And I find that really fascinating. So there's going to be a real need for the crypto space. So who's out there. Who's innovating, I think is, is, is important. Well,
John Darcie: (53:26)
Val, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on salt talks. Anthony, I want to kick it to you. If you have a final word for, for Val before
Anthony Scaramucci: (53:32)
We let her go. I think it was, I think it was fabulous. It's uh, it's, uh, I hope we get you to our conference, Val, and I hope we can, uh, hang out together when the pandemic ends. I really enjoyed it and I wish you a great success in what you're working on. Hopefully John and I and the SkyBridge team and the Saul team will find ways to help.
Valerie Mosley: (53:51)
Yeah, that's great. I love what you're doing and you know, what else I like, I like that you admit your mistakes
Anthony Scaramucci: (53:58)
Well would be, you don't have enough time for my mistakes. Okay.
Valerie Mosley: (54:02)
Nope. I heard you on clubhouse. Oh, that's the other thing I would say another trend that I didn't mention is that the two really important trends is that create a platform where you allow creators to earn money. So what's great about clubhouse is that I heard you on clubhouse. You were great, actually, you were great. You know, what made you great is that you are authentic and you were being honest about your mistakes. Um, not only with Trump, but your mistakes in life and, and, and, and, and then with your, with your marriage and your relationships, and what really matters at the end of the day, individuals matter and how you behave matters and being self-aware and saying I'm wrong. Or I made a mistake, or I have the view, but just being authentically you is a beautiful thing. And so I'd love to go to the conference as well. And I just want to say, listen, I,
Anthony Scaramucci: (54:51)
I try to do that. And, you know, as John could tell you, I went through a very rough spot. Uh, but without that kind of level of knowledge and not authenticity, you're not getting through it. So that's, that's my message. As a younger people. Now I know, I know you're like that as well. I
Valerie Mosley: (55:07)
Am. And the other thing that I didn't say, one thing I love about the millennials, I think millennials are more willing to be just open. Like we were like close, we didn't acknowledge, oh, I've got an issue here. Mental health is a big issue. This is mental health month. That's a trend, that's a trend invest in companies that are going to help more people acknowledge that they struggled. And then, and how do they get to the other side? I like what we're doing. And we're trying to bring the financial planners together with the users like Uber, rising financial wellness. Um, I like that. And I think that's, excuse me.
Anthony Scaramucci: (55:41)
No, I think it's brilliant. I think it's brilliant.
Valerie Mosley: (55:45)
And, and just because, and that's the other thing, it just, because I, I just think that we have to move forward with this notion that just because people have a different view doesn't mean they aren't good people. They just have a different view and the more confident we are and who we are, we can say, I get it. You are whatever label you want to put on it. That's your view. It doesn't mean that you're a bad person. We just have to learn and be compassionate with yourself along the way.
Anthony Scaramucci: (56:10)
Totally. With you on that. All right. Well, we'll see you soon. Thank you again. And thank
John Darcie: (56:15)
You everybody for tuning in to today's salt. Talk with Valerie Mosley. Just a reminder. If you missed any part of this talk or any of our previous salt talks, you can access them on our website. It's salt.org backslash talks or on our YouTube channel, which is called salt tube. We're also on social media. Twitter is where we're most active at salt conference, but we're also on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook as well. And please spread the word about these salt talks. We love, especially when we focus on these concepts around impact investing FinTech in ways that we can create greater equity in our society, uh, through technology and through, uh, deployment of capital. We love educating people on those subjects, uh, but on behalf of Anthony and the entire salt team, this is John Darcie signing off from salt talks for today. We hope to see you back here against them.