“I want to see economic growth that benefits everyone. I do believe the government can step in and help people level that playing field. I don’t think people should go broke because they broke their arm or have a serious illness.”
Christopher Hahn is a progressive pundit and host of the Aggressive Progressive podcast. Hahn served for five years as a senior aide to US Senator Chuck Schumer.
As a regular guest on Fox News for ten years, providing a progressive perspective, Hahn has seen the network’s dramatic shift to the right, particularly from its opinion hosts. The conservative movement more broadly reflects this shift where fringe conspiracies and white supremacist ideology have come to the fore. This is born out of the sense that a shifting demographic represents an existential threat to white-centric culture. This culminated in a terrorist attack of the Capitol by Trump supporters in order to disrupt the election certification. “This was not a protest; this was a terrorist attack by forces that wanted to overthrow the government of the United States of America. They were coming to kill Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer and Mike Pence.”
Since Ronald Reagan, the center of politics in the US has moved right. The most liberal members of the Democratic party like AOC, Bernie Sander and Elizabeth are trying to move that conversation left and create more progressive compromise.
LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE
SPEAKER
Christopher Hahn
Host
The Aggressive Progressive Podcast
MODERATOR
Anthony Scaramucci
Founder & Managing Partner
SkyBridge
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
John Darsie: (00:07)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is John Darsie. I'm the managing director of SALT, which is a global thought leadership forum at the intersection of finance, technology, and public policy. SALT Talks are a digital interview series with leading investors, creators, and thinkers. Our goal with SALT Talks, like our goal at our SALT Conferences, which we host twice a year, once in the United States and once internationally, is to provide a window into the mind of subject matter experts, as well as provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future. We're very excited today to welcome Christopher Hahn to SALT Talks for a very timely conversation about the state of our nation's political rhetoric in our entire societal situation that we're in right now.
John Darsie: (00:57)
Christopher Hahn is a highly sought-after progressive pundit and the host of the Aggressive Progressive podcast. He hosts a national syndicated radio show and has made over 2500 national television appearances on a variety of political, pop culture, and public policy topics. Christopher's skill in dealing with public policy issues was honed during five years where he served as a senior aide to US Senator Chuck Schumer, who's a Democrat from New York, as most of you know. During that time, his responsibilities included dealing with the post-9/11 homeland security activities, domestic policy, federal environmental matters, and economic development.
John Darsie: (01:37)
As Chief Deputy County Executive for Nassau County, Chris was the senior appointed official under County Executive Tom Suozzi. Chris was primarily responsible for directing and managing the daily administration, communications, and operations of county government. Appointed at the age of 33, Christopher was the youngest person in the history of Nassau County to hold the position of Chief Deputy County Executive. Chris serves on the boards of Stony Brook University, the Regional Plan Association of New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut, and the New York League of Conservation Voters. Chris earned his BA at the University of Albany and his JD from St. John's University School of Law.
John Darsie: (02:20)
Hosting today's talk is Anthony Scaramucci, the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge Capital, a global alternative investment firm. Anthony's also the chairman of SALT, also had a brief stint in politics, not quite as long as Chris's. But, with that, I'll turn it over to Anthony for the interview.
Anthony Scaramucci: (02:37)
You see how he starts it? It's a-
John Darsie: (02:39)
I always have to get it in.
Anthony Scaramucci: (02:40)
... karate chop right in the Adam's apple trying to remind people that I was in Washington for 11 days. But you want to know something, Darsie? Donald Trump right now is less than a Scaramucci away from leaving the White House, unless, of course, he blows up the White House between now and his departure. So, Chris, thanks so much for joining us. You're known as an aggressive progressive. So, first of all, what does that mean to you? What should it mean to others? Then tell us something about yourself that we couldn't find on your Wikipedia page that he just carefully read for 25-
Christopher Hahn: (03:16)
Yes, geez. You read the whole thing off the Wikipedia page.
Anthony Scaramucci: (03:20)
It was very impressive, Darsie. It was impressive.
Christopher Hahn: (03:24)
So aggressive progressive is really ... It's something that bookers would call me. You've got two types of progressives over at Fox News, and that's where I've done the 2500 television appearances. All but maybe 200 of them were at Fox News, and bookers would say there are two types of progressives. There are the kind of wishy-washy progressives that'll just go along to get along. They want to try to be liked by everybody who watches them. Then there are aggressive-
Anthony Scaramucci: (03:56)
So those are sort of like passive progressives, something like that?
Christopher Hahn: (03:57)
Yeah, guys who kind of have Stockholm Syndrome. They're over at Fox News, and they've adopted a more conservative tone. Then there are people like me who aggressively defend the progressive position. So I have been called the most aggressive progressive that has consistently been on Fox. I've been on Fox News since 2010. It's gotten very different over the years. It used to be a lot more fun interacting with the audience members, up until really the last two, three years. I'd always have the same conversation when I'd meet people, "Oh, we love seeing you on TV at Fox. You're so articulate. We don't agree with anything you say, but we love seeing you."
Christopher Hahn: (04:46)
Now, I get a lot of stare-downs. A lot of these conservations think that, oh, he's a progressive. He's a liberal. He's probably weak. Then they see me in public and I'm a little bit more put-together than they might've thought I might be. I did play college football, and I'm an avid runner and a triathlete, and fitness is really the one consistent thing in my life probably my entire life. So it's a big deal. I try to make my points, and I'm passionate about my points that I make, and I don't allow conservatives to lie when I'm sitting next to them, sitting next to them or, more likely lately, in a box on a screen with them.
Anthony Scaramucci: (05:38)
You say that Fox is different from 2010. It's now 2021, and you're saying that the audience may be a little more hostile towards viewpoints. How's Fox itself different?
Christopher Hahn: (05:53)
Well, I think that the opinion hosts are far more extreme in some of the things that they are saying these years, particularly people like Tucker Carlson. I haven't been on Tucker Carlson's show in two years. I used to do Tucker Carlson's show every Friday night for years. From the onset of the show, I did it almost every Friday night. I think that Donald Trump doesn't like me. That's pretty clear. He's tweeted about me. He's talked about me on radio interviews and says I'm one of the reasons why Fox has gone downhill. Tucker took that on and didn't do it, hasn't had me on in a long time. Sean Hannity hasn't had me on since Trump has become president. Sean Hannity was the first show I ever did at Fox. I had done the Internet show at Fox once, and then the Hannity bookers called me to do Hannity the next day, and I was off to the races over at Fox News.
Christopher Hahn: (06:58)
I had a friend who was running for State Senate who wanted me to run her State Senate campaign, and I had settled into a job at a law firm, and I wasn't interested in doing campaigns anymore. She had been doing some Fox News, and I said to her, "I'd love to do some TV." I had done a TV show in the '90s out here called Youth and Politics, and then when I actually went to work for Chuck Schumer and then later Tom Suozzi, I had given all that up, and I wanted to get back in. She said, "Well, you know what? They've got an Internet show at Fox News, and if you do that for a couple of months, the producers will see you, and they'll put you on the regular show." I literally got a phone call while I was on the Internet show the first time because I guess I have a good acting background and I think that's probably-
Anthony Scaramucci: (07:48)
Well, you grew up on Long ... I mean, you got a good acting, right? You grew up in Long Island. We've all got good acting backgrounds.
Christopher Hahn: (07:52)
Yes. Well-
Anthony Scaramucci: (07:53)
That's Hannity, that's O'Reilly, that's me, that's you. We're all [inaudible 00:07:59]. John Darsie is a Long Island transplant now from North Carolina, so he's all uppity about everything, you know?
Christopher Hahn: (08:05)
Yep.
Anthony Scaramucci: (08:06)
So let me ask you this, though. Again, I have a lot of friends at Fox. You know I hosted a show for the Fox Business channel for two years. I was a Fox News contributor and Fox Business contributor, knew Roger Ailes, and I have a lot of respect for many, many people at Fox. But it does seem like they've shifted the bell curve of conservatism where now it's bordering on extremism. Am I wrong in saying that, and if I am, push me back a little and help me.
Christopher Hahn: (08:41)
I think that's all conservatism. The entire conservative movement, Republican movement, has shifted to this wacko, conspiracy theory, base-driven method here. I'm looking for words.
Anthony Scaramucci: (08:59)
Okay. Let me test something on you and you react to it. When you look at the rage that took place at the Capitol last Wednesday, it was mostly white people. I didn't see a lot of brown and Black people in that, but maybe there were. I just didn't see them from the pictures, so who knows? My worry is that that conservative movement is an aging white demographic that is buying catheters and MyPillows from Fox News. Am I wrong about that? What say you?
Christopher Hahn: (09:31)
No, I think that the conservative movement is not just an aging white movement. I think it's a borderline white supremacist movement, frankly, that sees any change or shift in their power as an existential threat. A lot of that's laziness, right? A lot of these people don't want to compete with a broader market of people. They like to say that I'm a socialist, but they want to hold onto to their easy lifestyle and they don't want to see more Black and brown and gay and other people competing in their market and have a level playing field. That is unacceptable to them, and you see ... Oh, and Charles Blow-
Anthony Scaramucci: (10:09)
So this is a last gasp of white-
Christopher Hahn: (10:14)
What'd you say?
Anthony Scaramucci: (10:15)
I'm just saying this is a last gasp of white people. Their demographic is shrinking, and they're getting angry about it. So they figure that they can't really run it as much as they used to, and they don't want to cede power, so they're becoming anarchists.
Christopher Hahn: (10:30)
I think that this is very much similar. Charles Blow can say it a lot better than I did. I don't know if you read his column yesterday, and then he did a video on this. He compared the red hats to the red shirts of the Post-Reconstruction Era in Mississippi. Mississippi was a majority Black state, and the only way whites were going to maintain control was through violence. People are comparing what happened on Wednesday of last week to a protest over the summer that might've gotten violent. No, this was not a protest. This was a terrorist attack by forces that wanted to overthrow the government of the United States of America. In that building-
Anthony Scaramucci: (11:15)
Well, they were coming to kill Nancy Pelosi. They had zip ties, pipe bombs.
Christopher Hahn: (11:19)
They were going to kill Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, and Mike Pence. There's no doubt. There were people with zip ties. There were people in body armor. The only people they've arrested are the jokers who were taking pictures of themselves that think this is all a joke, but there were people in full military fatigues who looked to be moving as a unit in that crowd. I'm sorry. These nine days cannot go fast enough for me. I am not going to go back to playing this game. I am shocked that even after that, seven United States senators, six United States senators, still objected to the electoral vote, and 140 members of the House of Representatives. I'm sorry. The members from the states that objected to their own states' votes, they should be expelled immediately. It's nonsense.
Anthony Scaramucci: (12:17)
Steve Schmidt, who you and I both know, others from The Lincoln Project, others that are sort of center-right people that are not Trump extremists, are calling for a very aggressive approach to these extremists and saying that we need to snuff this out, that it's sort of 1924, and that they'll double down on this sort of stuff if we don't do that. What's your reaction to that?
Christopher Hahn: (12:46)
I agree. I think we need to charge these people with sedition. I think that the president of the United States should not be immune from charges. If I'm Lisa Murkowski and Mitt Romney and Pat Toomey, I'd go to Mitch McConnell tomorrow and say, "You expel Hawley and Cruz and the others that joined them from our conference or I'm walking across the aisle." This should not be the time ... The Republicans brought this on by placating Donald Trump for the past four years, really, for the past five years. A lot of people, myself sometimes included, said, "Oh, he's a clown." You know what? They said the same thing about Adolf Hitler, and I don't like comparing people to Adolf Hitler, and right now the comparison is not there. But you know what? In 1924, the comparison wasn't there yet either. If this movement is not stopped, if that would've been successful last week, there is no doubt in my mind that I would not be living in this country today. I would be on my way out of here. I have been named.
Anthony Scaramucci: (13:52)
So let's talk about ... Success would've been the-
Christopher Hahn: (13:52)
I've been named by that president, and I've got-
Anthony Scaramucci: (13:55)
Success would've been the assassination of Senator Schumer, Speaker Pelosi, Vice President Pence.
Christopher Hahn: (14:01)
Yeah.
Anthony Scaramucci: (14:02)
How do you think the vice president feels today? It's a week after the insurrection. He's got to go back and work for his boss, who basically was inciting that situation.
Christopher Hahn: (14:14)
Yeah. The fact that the president has not called Mike Pence since the insurrection that the president inspired speaks all ... It's all you need to hear. The president on Wednesday had crowds chanting, "Kill Mike Pence," or, "Hang Mike Pence," outside of the Capitol where Mike Pence was. Mike Pence should've gone back to his office, and he should've written a letter to the rest of the cabinet and invoked the 25th Amendment that day. I don't understand why [crosstalk 00:14:46]-
Anthony Scaramucci: (14:46)
So why do you think he didn't do that? Let me push back for a second. Mike Pence's staff would say that there's a week or so to go, let's see if we can run the clock out with causing further mania. They would say if they invoke 25th Amendment and remove him prior to the inauguration, it could cause more violence. Again, I'm in your camp. I want the president arrested. I've said that publicly on Twitter. I think his acts of sedition and traitorism are-
Christopher Hahn: (15:19)
And by the way, thanks for the retweets, Anthony, because my following is a lot of crazies, and whenever you retweet, I get some additional people.
Anthony Scaramucci: (15:26)
You get some additional crazies? Well, I lost some crazies. Twitter took a lot of crazies off of my following, and thank God that they did.
John Darsie: (15:36)
You actually didn't lose that many, Anthony, and it's a sign that the crazies unfollowed you a long time ago because you were [crosstalk 00:15:42]-
Anthony Scaramucci: (15:41)
Yeah. Well, I lost three or 4000. I didn't lose 40,000 like Sarah Huckabee Sanders, but I lost three or 4000. I'm not worried about my Twitter following. I'm worried about the health of the country.
Christopher Hahn: (15:55)
Me, too.
Anthony Scaramucci: (15:56)
I'm worried about police officers that are dying in the face of an insurrection. I'm worried about the collaboration that these insurrectionists could've had from inside the government or inside the Capitol Police. I'm worried about Josh Hawley and Senator Cruz, who are smart guys, Chris. They know better than to be doing what they're doing. I'm worried about all of this political expediency. The reason why I wanted to bring you on SALT Talks is that you've been at the center of our political system for several decades. You've been in a trench. You're a trench warrior. You've seen differences. You've seen people reconcile differences. You've seen people create compromise that actually sort of hate each other. What would you do here? Let's say that you were the czar and you could wave a wand that could help heal the nation. What are some of the steps that you would want to see happen?
Christopher Hahn: (16:53)
Well, you got to start with justice, Anthony. I saw that there was a letter written to Joe Biden by some of the people who objected to his election saying, "Oh, let's call for unity. Let's let bygones be bygones." No, we're past that. We need justice. There needs to be accountability and justice and a full airing of what actually happened and all those who were involved. There should be resignations from people who spurred it on, and that includes Cruz and Hawley, who definitely, as you suggested, knew better.
Christopher Hahn: (17:32)
Josh Hawley likes to pretend he's this man of the people. He went to Stanford and Yale and then taught at St. Paul's in London. He is one of the brightest minds in the Senate, and he absolutely knows better. Frankly, that he knows better and allowed this to happen holds him more responsible. I mean, I want to see Marsha Blackburn and Rick Scott and the others who objected after the violence expelled from the Senate. I know that people say, "Well, that's going to cause more divisions." I don't know how much more divided we could be in this country than we are right now. We've got people literally willing to commit violence, and I don't believe that this was the end of anything. This could've been the beginning of something.
Christopher Hahn: (18:18)
So the government has to be a government of people who are willing to face reality and people who know reality, like Cruz and Hawley, I could almost let some of them go. I don't think Tommy Tuberville lives in reality, right? But Tommy Tuberville was a football coach at Alabama. He didn't teach at St. Paul's in London. Maybe I could give him a little bit of a pass. But when guys that are Harvard and Yale and St. Paul's are edging people like that on, they got to go. They have got to go. The good Republicans, and I believe there are some good Republicans still, need to call on the bad Republicans to go or they need to cross the aisle and then allow for a more stricter, a more comprehensive policy to be placed into effect because this can't stand anymore.
Anthony Scaramucci: (19:14)
Well, and, again, we're in agreement. It seems like I've lost my party. I don't know where to go with my center-right positions on business and regulation and the promotion of economic growth and agnosticism to the social liberties in our society. I feel like our society, people should be able to live and do as they want with their own bodies and they should certainly have any choice that they want related to their sexual preferences. But I'm a sort of center-right person on business and growth, and I would like to see a restoration of capitalism but, obviously, fairness for people as well.
Christopher Hahn: (19:53)
I think I'm a center-right on business issues. I want to see economic growth that benefits everyone, and I want to see everyone have the opportunity for that growth. I do believe that government can step in and should step in and help people level that playing field. I think in the richest country in the world we shouldn't be allowing people to starve, we shouldn't be allowing people to go bankrupt because they break their arm or have a serious illness. But I do want to see opportunities for growth and economic success in this country. So I think there's a perfect place for you in the Democratic Party, Anthony. It's a big tent, and there are a lot of pro-growth Democrats. They used to call them Clinton Democrats or T-L-C Democrats.
Anthony Scaramucci: (20:44)
It's just one of these things where you're hoping that you can provide some restorative help to the Republican Party and it doesn't go completely off the rails because if it does, it'll lead to further psychosis or-
Christopher Hahn: (20:59)
I think that they're off the rails.
Anthony Scaramucci: (21:01)
... further trauma for the world. But it is [crosstalk 00:21:03]-
Christopher Hahn: (21:03)
I don't think they're coming back. I talked to a bunch of people from The Lincoln Project, some of them with your help and your introduction, which I really appreciated. A lot of them are never going back, right? Rick Wilson told me in no uncertain times, "I'm never going back."
Anthony Scaramucci: (21:19)
No, Steve Schmidt, Rick, yeah, all those-
Christopher Hahn: (21:21)
Steve Schmidt.
Anthony Scaramucci: (21:22)
... guys have left, no question.
Christopher Hahn: (21:23)
Yeah, they're not going back because there's nothing to go back-
Anthony Scaramucci: (21:27)
Steve's registered as a Democrat.
Christopher Hahn: (21:29)
There's nothing to go back to. It is the new Know Nothing Party. It is not a party that wants to believe in facts. When I first started working in the US Senate in 1999 or 2000 with Chuck Schumer, we had differences with Republicans, but it was differences on how to govern and how government should be involved in solving different problems, and we would work it out. We didn't disagree on reality. We all believed, "Here's the problem," and we had different ways of solving the problem. By the way, that was a healthy debate, which is what the founders wanted. The founders did not want to have a government that moved too fast. That's why it created the system that it did. That's why it's been so stable and economically successful for the past 240 years. But what we have right now is we have one party that lives in reality, the Democratic Party, and we have one party that does not, the Republican Party. That's not sustainable.
Anthony Scaramucci: (22:24)
Let me push back again a little bit because there is a fringe to the Democratic Party that is I'm not going to say the radical left, but it's definitely way lefter-leaning than I would think mainstream America is. So when I'm getting lit up and I'm getting my hate mail and I'm getting people telling me they're going to come kill me and all the stupid stuff that's happened to me over the last year, one of the thing's that's laced in there is, "Well, you're now a socialist. You're running with the socialists." So what do you say about the configuration of the Democratic Party today, and is there anything about your party that you're worried about?
Christopher Hahn: (23:04)
I mean, even the furthest left person in the Democratic Party lives in reality, right? I always like to say I get called a socialist 10 or 15 times a day by people who I am much better at capitalism than, right? People who have jobs in the government or who are living on a pension, who are receiving Social Security, Medicaid, or Medicare are calling me a socialist. Look, when I was 29 years old, I had all sorts of ideas of how to change the world. People like AOC, who's just turned 30 and hasn't been beaten down by Washington yet, she should be pushing for everything she can because, quite frankly, the center in this country since Reagan has moved right. It has not moved left, and the only way to get it to move back left is to start further left so that when you make your compromise, which is what these people are all willing to do, by the way ... They're all willing to compromise. Just because they start on the far left doesn't mean they're not willing to compromise somewhere in the middle. The problem is the middle is to the right right now.
Christopher Hahn: (24:19)
So AOC and Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren and others, they are trying to start the conversation further to the left. As somebody's who's negotiated a lot of things in my lifetime, I can see where that is helpful. You would never start your negotiation with where you want to finish it, and, unfortunately, right-wing media says, "Oh, look where they are, they're insisting on this or that or the other thing," and then it gets echoed, and then that's the Republican Party position. The Democrats, for all the talk of the liberal media, do not have a single media personality that can drive the entire public opinion of the entire party, including elected officials, like Republicans have. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, they get on a drumbeat of a certain issue, and the entire Republican Party, the entire conservative movement, is right there with them.
Anthony Scaramucci: (25:13)
So I've got to introduce John Darsie to the conversation because we have to get our ratings up. Apparently, he's getting a lot of fan mail that he's a new budding television and all those sorts of-
Christopher Hahn: (25:24)
You've got great hair.
John Darsie: (25:25)
Thank you.
Anthony Scaramucci: (25:25)
Yeah, so I'm going to introduce him in a second, but I want to ask you one last question before-
Christopher Hahn: (25:29)
Go ahead.
Anthony Scaramucci: (25:30)
... John comes in and tries to outshine me in all that Millennial sharp elbows and everything that he's capable of.
Christopher Hahn: (25:37)
True Gen X'ers, man. We're fading.
Anthony Scaramucci: (25:40)
Yeah, it's hard on me, to be candid, Chris. But Donald Trump has been permanently suspended from Twitter, his Facebook. Apple, Google have removed Parler from their app stores. I think a company called Stripe has taken the payment protocol away from his electioneering at this time. What is your reaction to all that, and is that an appropriate thing to do, an inappropriate thing to do? I was on a show with Piers Morgan in London. He said, "Well, what about the Ayatollah? The Ayatollah still has his Twitter account up." By the way, and I'm going to editorialize here for a second, I think it was totally appropriate because they are mounting another potential insurrection.
Christopher Hahn: (26:29)
Yeah.
Anthony Scaramucci: (26:30)
But I'm interested in your reaction and where do you think we'll be post Donald Trump and what will Donald Trump be doing?
Christopher Hahn: (26:36)
Well, he's going to have a lot harder time doing it without Twitter, right? Parler is no Twitter, and it never will be. Now that they're taking it off the app store, it's going to be very hard for people to get on Parler. You're going to have to really be dedicated. The First Amendment does not apply to private actors. A lot of people are saying, "Oh, he's violating" ... No. He can go to the White House press room. You know that place. You worked there for 11 days. He could go down there and make a statement to the entire world right now if he wanted to. The problem is that media people will scrutinize it and it won't go out unedited.
Christopher Hahn: (27:11)
So I think it's very appropriate. He's been lying to people. That has incited violence. There is a police officer dead because of what the president has been saying for the last nine weeks, okay, more than that. Prior to election, he said it was going to be rigged, and then after the election, he's been saying it was rigged. Even in his statement conceding the election, he said it was rigged. This man is beyond-
Anthony Scaramucci: (27:36)
Well, yeah, it's his lies that have led to this level of violence. There's no question.
Christopher Hahn: (27:39)
Absolutely. He is directly responsible and should be held accountable.
Anthony Scaramucci: (27:43)
What did the Fox News pundits say about that? They agree with him that the election was rigged? Even though Fox is putting these intercessional infomercials, lacing them into their punditry, that there was no fraud, the pundits think that or are they doing that to make money or what are they doing it for?
Christopher Hahn: (28:03)
I don't know. The main conservative I still go on is Laura Ingram. She has said that the election's over. I don't watch the show too much. I think their main grievance is the institution of vote by mail and how that is maybe a violation of their state laws and it should've been tried, along those lines, whatever. It all needs to stop. People need to say, "Congratulations, Joe Biden, you're president of the United States on January 20th at 12:01 PM." This constant whining, grievance culture, I don't know how anybody lives in it. I don't know how anybody lives in it. They always about Democrats and liberals being snowflakes and whiny, but Donald Trump's entire campaign was, "Look what they're doing to me," even as president. I get it when you're running for president. You can be a grievance candidate. But he was the government for the last four years. He was responsible for everything, and he lost 13 million jobs. It's crazy.
Anthony Scaramucci: (29:17)
Okay, I'm turning it over to John Darsie. Go easy on Chris, okay? He's a nice guy. He's a fellow Long Islander.
Christopher Hahn: (29:26)
I don't like scaring Millennials either, John. I know I tend to do that.
John Darsie: (29:31)
I know. We can be a little bit aggressive and progressive the way you are, so fighting fire with fire here. But I'm going to press you a little bit on the censorship issue, and I'm not going to editorialize. I just want to ask you the question, frankly, because I think it's a very complex issue, the idea of de-platforming people, de-platforming apps, and big tech working with government to basically arbitrate on what's allowed to be said and what's not. Glenn Greenwald, who's controversial in some quarters but he's definitely a contrarian commentator, he's among the leading voices that say that this event at the capital is basically going to be liberals' 9/11, where they're going to use it as pretense to continue to strip civil liberties away from people under the guise of public safety. Are you worried at all about the creep of authoritarianism when you have big tech and big government working together to determine who has a voice and who doesn't?
Christopher Hahn: (30:28)
No, and Glenn Greenwald's an idiot, okay? He's an idiot. I'm not going to mince words. He's an idiot. What authoritarianism was what happened on Wednesday. They were trying to install Donald Trump as an unelected king in this country. Glenn Greenwald is a monarchist, and I am not worried. First of all, if the government was telling Twitter and Facebook what to do, that would be a problem. I would have a problem with that because that would be a violation of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. Twitter and Facebook did it on their own because Donald Trump, for the past five years, has been violating Twitter and Facebook's user policies, and he's gotten away with it because he's newsworthy. Because he's the president of the United States, they give him a newsworthy exception.
Christopher Hahn: (31:21)
Now that that newsworthy exception has actually caused somebody to die, they are concerned about future liability of continuing to platform Donald Trump, so they don't want to be associated with Donald Trump anymore. You can make an argument that the vending platform Stripe, which processes the president's campaign contributions, de-platforming him could have some First Amendment impact because Buckley v. Valeo has equated spending of money with speech in the Supreme Court and that's a very long-term precedent of the United States Supreme Court. But Glenn Greenwald should probably read those things again. Maybe he's forgotten them. But he is not right. He's incorrect, and quite frankly-
John Darsie: (32:14)
What are you-
Christopher Hahn: (32:15)
... I am a civil libertarian in a lot of ways, and I would never ... The government should never be allowed to infringe on people's free speech, no matter how disgusting it may be. What's going on right now is not the government infringing on speech. It is platforms who have rules saying, "You're going to follow our rules or you're off," and they are also concerned about their long-term financial liability for what's being said on those platforms now that they know what they've caused.
John Darsie: (32:49)
Related to that, do you have a strong view on Section 230? I find it kind of funny that a lot of conservatives seem to think that by repealing Section 230, it would actually create more freedom of speech on social media outlets, whereas the provision actually prevents these outlets from being held liable for speech that's made on that platforms. So if you actually stripped it, it would force these social media outlets to censor a lot more speech. But do you have a strong view on that issue?
Christopher Hahn: (33:19)
I think that the president sees a little mark next to his name so he pushes for Section 230 to be repealed. I don't have a strong view on it. But I also think that one of the reasons why they're pulling people off their platform is liability because, even though they have some protection for it, once you knowingly allow this stuff going on, it becomes a reckless standard here, I think. It's been a while since I've actually practiced law, so forgive me. But I did go to St. John's, where they actually teach you the law, not Harvard, where they teach you the theory of the law. So it's a-
John Darsie: (33:56)
I don't know. Anthony passed the bar on his third attempt.
Anthony Scaramucci: (33:59)
Yeah, he's taking a shot at me because [crosstalk 00:34:00]-
John Darsie: (34:00)
Anthony passed the bar on his third attempt.
Christopher Hahn: (34:01)
It's one of the very few things St. John's grads can have.
Anthony Scaramucci: (34:05)
A Long Island St. John's is taking a shot at me. John's going to mention the fact that I blew up on the bar exam a few times. I was out water skiing in Manhasset Bay. I didn't realize you had all these arcane things. But I did pass it. I eventually passed it. Keep going, Darsie. Go ahead.
Christopher Hahn: (34:21)
I passed it, and I'll tell you-
Anthony Scaramucci: (34:22)
Are you going to mention I got fired again?
Christopher Hahn: (34:23)
... a quick bar story. I was so worried about failing the bar. I buried myself in studying for the bar. Two weeks before the bar exam, two things happened. I had a girlfriend that I stopped seeing as I was just studying the bar, and I told my mother, "If anybody dies, just don't call me until after the bar." So the bar ends, I finish the bar, I'm in the city. My girlfriend lived in Manhattan. She was a ballet dancer. I call her up, I go, "I'm going to come over. I'm going to come over. I just finished taking the bar exam." She's like, "Christopher, we broke up three weeks ago. You were on a phone call. I told you you're too intense with the studying, I've got to go, and you just said, 'Uh-huh (affirmative), uh-huh (affirmative).'" So I didn't even realize I'd broken up with her. Sorry.
John Darsie: (35:18)
At least you were buried in your studies. I'll give you credit for that.
Christopher Hahn: (35:20)
I think she was originally from Manhasset, too, by the way, either Manhasset or Roslyn, something like that.
Anthony Scaramucci: (35:25)
It just means she had good judgment if she was from Manhasset, okay? [crosstalk 00:35:28]-
Christopher Hahn: (35:28)
One of those North Shore wealthy communities.
Anthony Scaramucci: (35:31)
Yeah, we're very smug.
Christopher Hahn: (35:32)
Lived on 33rd and Third.
Anthony Scaramucci: (35:33)
We're very smug and very self-important up here on the North Shore.
Christopher Hahn: (35:37)
Yes.
John Darsie: (35:37)
I want to switch gears a little bit with my line of questioning here. In Georgia today, we have two Democratic senators after the run-offs. We have a Black pastor and a 33-year-old Jewish progressive Democrat. It just goes to show you how much the electoral map and the makeup of each of these parties in the electorate has shifted in the last five to 10 years. It's been a slow trend in Georgia, but you're seeing other places really evolve, some becoming more blue, some becoming more red. How do you think the electoral balance of power is going to continue to evolve and shift around the country?
Christopher Hahn: (36:15)
Well, I'm very concerned about gerrymandering now that the Democrats failed to take back state houses in this past cycle. I think that that's the biggest problem is this country because you wind up having ... You want to talk about extremism on both sides, you wind up having people who are only concerned about winning their primaries and never have to really face a broad section of voters because they're going to win their seat based on their party affiliation if they survive a primary. So that's my main concern. I do think that presidentially Georgia now being firmly in play, first of all, congratulations, Stacey Abrams, because it was her work that made that all possible. The reason why Texas didn't similarly turn is because they didn't have a Stacey Abrams. I think Beto O'Rourke is a great candidate, but he's not the organizer that Stacey is, and I think that we've got to find that Stacey Abrams in Texas and in North Carolina and Florida to turn those states at least purple.
John Darsie: (37:27)
You also saw Hispanic voters in Texas and in Florida and elsewhere turn toward the Republican party more than they had in 2016.
Christopher Hahn: (37:36)
They sure did.
John Darsie: (37:37)
The Republicans got a much larger share of the vote.
Christopher Hahn: (37:38)
They sure did. You only need to look at Miami-Dade County to understand the story of Florida. Hillary Clinton won it with 68% of the vote and Joe Biden won it with 54. That's a huge shift in one of the largest counties in the state.
John Darsie: (37:52)
Why did that happen? Is it sloganeering? Is it defund the police?
Christopher Hahn: (37:55)
I think that there was a lot of lies being said about socialism and communism, particularly in Spanish language media, that was not countered by the Biden campaign well enough. You can't allow a lie to linger. You got to get on it immediately because it'll travel fast and it'll set in and it'll become gospel. They lied about them. How could anybody think ... I've known Joe Biden since I worked in the Senate. I started working in the Senate in 2000. I met him then. He is as middle of the road as they come. How can anybody think that Joe Biden is a socialist, a communist? It's ridiculous.
John Darsie: (38:45)
Yeah. In a lot of ways, he's the perfect president for the moment. He obviously has his issues. He's older, he's maybe a little slowing down from what he used to be when he was in his 40s or 50s. The fact that he is a consensus builder might be a godsend for us as we enter this precarious period of our history.
Christopher Hahn: (39:04)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
John Darsie: (39:04)
One more question for you. You're a New Yorker. New York and California in particular, I think, have suffered disproportionately during the pandemic because I think they, first of all, have the largest economies, but you've also seen New York City and San Francisco undergo sort of a decay over the last several years economically and socially, as you see increasing homelessness and the livability of those cities has gone downhill. You see a big movement or a lot of noise at least being made about people moving to Texas and Florida. What do you think locally Democratic leaders in heavily Democratic states and localities need to do to make sure that they reverse these trends and remain competitive from a business perspective, so these cities remain livable and exciting places to be?
Christopher Hahn: (39:52)
Well, actually, I think that this current crisis in New York City is going to lead to a renaissance in New York City. Hopefully, we get a mayor that has some vision and can lead. But housing has gotten out of reach in New York City for Millennials like you and artists and other people that led to the boom of New York City in the '90s and into the 2000s and up until, really, a year ago when it crashed because of COVID. I think that now that we have an opportunity to see housing costs come down and maybe even more stock be made available because there's going to be less need for all of this commercial office space, I think you're going to see more young people moving into Manhattan and Brooklyn and you're going to see that artist community come back and that creative class really take back over New York City.
Christopher Hahn: (40:48)
Cities are the future in this country. I know that COVID has people thinking, "Well, that's not going to be the case." I don't believe that at all. I believe that what was making cities slow down was the fact that Anthony could afford to live there but I can't. It's one of those things that now it's going to be more affordable, more easy. I actually-
Anthony Scaramucci: (41:11)
We're looking at his Architectural Digest living room, but that's fine. Okay. He's one of these limousine-
Christopher Hahn: (41:17)
I'm doing okay. I probably could afford to live there.
Anthony Scaramucci: (41:20)
I mean, he's one of these limousine liberals, okay? But I want to let you shoot it out with Darsie.
Christopher Hahn: (41:23)
I actually said ... My wife-
Anthony Scaramucci: (41:24)
Okay, I can see the Architectural Digest photography behind you-
Christopher Hahn: (41:29)
My wife and I were having-
Anthony Scaramucci: (41:29)
... but you can't afford living in New York.
Christopher Hahn: (41:32)
My wife and I were having this conversation. I actually really wanted to move to Manhattan before COVID. I was really like, "Let's move to Manhattan. It's good for my career." I love Manhattan. I love being in Manhattan. It's a good thing we didn't.
John Darsie: (41:50)
Well, if you're still interested, you might get a better price on that apartment that you were looking for.
Christopher Hahn: (41:55)
I think so. There's going to be a lot of opportunity in Manhattan the next couple of years, and I think it's going to lead to a lot more creativity in Manhattan, and creativity breeds industry. It's not just going to be artists. It's going to be engineers. It's going to be people who want to design things and build things and create things. You're going to see new uses for these buildings that used to host ... I don't think you're going to need 300,000 square feet for a law firm anymore. You're going to need less because people are working remote and they like it.
John Darsie: (42:23)
Absolutely. Well, Christopher Hahn, thank you so much for joining us on SALT Talks. It's the Aggressive Progressive podcast. Please, everybody go out there, subscribe, listen to Chris's podcast. It's a fantastic podcast. I listened to a lot of episodes as soon as you came on my radar via Anthony, and it's a great show. Anthony, you have any final words for Chris before we let him go?
Anthony Scaramucci: (42:42)
No. Chris, I wish there were more people like you and Robert Wolf and others where we could just bring the country together, calm down the outside tension, but, unfortunately, what I'm learning and what's something I don't like, and I know you don't like it as well, is the idea that there are people who are using movements and radicalization for their own personal ambition and for their own personal political attempt at power. I'm talking to you, Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley, specifically.
Christopher Hahn: (43:20)
And some of these groups, like CPAC and others. It's just a grift.
Anthony Scaramucci: (43:25)
Really dangerous stuff. I appreciate you coming on. We're going to have you back. We're going to need some of your insight on what the Biden administration looks like in six to 12 months.
Christopher Hahn: (43:34)
It's going to be a great thing, and I really appreciate it. Anthony, you know-
Anthony Scaramucci: (43:38)
If you're nice to me, before I put my hair up on eBay, I may let you borrow it one night [crosstalk 00:43:43]-
Christopher Hahn: (43:43)
I want to borrow it, man. If I had your hair, I'd rule the world, man.
Anthony Scaramucci: (43:44)
But you can't bring it into Manhattan. You can only use it out here on Long Island.
Christopher Hahn: (43:47)
But I want to say one nice thing about you because I saw that you were mixing it up with somebody on Twitter over the weekend and he was calling it out for the role you played in Trump's rise, which you owned it. You owned the mistake, and you've done everything you can the past couple of years now to take that back and inform people who don't want to listen to me that this was a bad thing. This is a bad guy. There's got to be a point in time where people, they've made their amends, they've admitted wrong. You never tried to say, "Oh, no, I wasn't wrong." You said, "I was wrong for supporting this guy."
Anthony Scaramucci: (44:34)
No, I owned it, but this is the problem with liberalism, let me just tell you straight up. You have a lot of self-righteous, very sanctimonious people, holier than thou, and they don't want to hear it, so they have a litmus test.
Christopher Hahn: (44:47)
I don't think it's that.
Anthony Scaramucci: (44:48)
I'm telling those people, you've got 74 million people that just voted for Donald Trump, we have to get them back into the fold of the United States of America.
Christopher Hahn: (44:58)
I wish I could blame it on ideology, but I think it comes back to everybody wants to go viral all the time, everybody wants to be relevant, and as people start to fade from relevance, they pick fights, they get more radicalized, they do whatever they got to do to maintain that relevance. I know at some point nobody's [crosstalk 00:45:21]-
Anthony Scaramucci: (45:21)
Darsie's thinking of Rudy as you're saying that. See, that's why Darsie's smiling. Darsie's thinking of Rudy.
Christopher Hahn: (45:24)
Yeah. I had that battle with Rudy Guiliani, and it made me sad more than anything else because the guy used to be great, and he's not anymore. He's a laughing stock. He's pathetic.
Anthony Scaramucci: (45:41)
Makes me sad. I had a very good close, long-term personal relationship with him, and as Anthony Carbonetti, who you know and others, we would all say the same thing, John Avlon. We want to remember Rudy the way he was '93 to '97 as opposed to the way he is here in 2021.
Christopher Hahn: (46:02)
Yeah, you want to remember him on 9/11.
Anthony Scaramucci: (46:04)
On 9/11 as well. Yeah, those were [crosstalk 00:46:06]-
Christopher Hahn: (46:05)
I know. I used to see him at the Yankee games, and I would talk to him and have great conversations with him. Then the last five years, he started bringing up insanity at the Yankee games, not even on TV.
Anthony Scaramucci: (46:22)
Well, I'm going to mic drop you because this is my show, okay? This is a Met city now. Cut his mic, Darsie, cut his mic.
Christopher Hahn: (46:31)
There's no Mets city. I know you're an owner of the Mets, and I hope to one day go to a game with you because my wife-
Anthony Scaramucci: (46:37)
Oh, yeah.
Christopher Hahn: (46:37)
I'm in a mixed marriage.
Anthony Scaramucci: (46:37)
No, I sold my estate to Steve Cohen. But, yes, you'll be in my-
Christopher Hahn: (46:42)
I'm in a mixed marriage because my wife's-
Anthony Scaramucci: (46:43)
You'll be in my suite as soon as we can get the stadium open, as soon as we get [inaudible 00:46:46].
Christopher Hahn: (46:47)
I got to bring my wife because she's the Met fan here. I'm in a mixed marriage.
Anthony Scaramucci: (46:50)
All right. Hey, man, we may leave you in the car now that I know that.
Christopher Hahn: (46:53)
There you go.
Anthony Scaramucci: (46:54)
All right. Well, god bless, Chris. Thanks to you for coming on.
Christopher Hahn: (46:56)
God bless you, too, and thanks for having me, and I look forward to seeing it. You guys are great. Keep up the good work.
John Darsie: (47:02)
Thanks again to Christopher Hahn for joining us on SALT Talks, and thank you for tuning into SALT Talks. Just a reminder, you can sign up for all of our future talks at salt.org/talks and access our entire archive of SALT Talks at salt.org/talks/archive. Please follow us on social media. SALT is on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn. Please tell your friends about SALT Talk because we love growing our community. We were able to use technology and the Internet in 2020 at a time when we had to cancel our conferences to grow our community digitally, and it's been a lot of fun to have these virtual conversations with people like Christopher Hahn and guests across finance, tech, and public policy. On behalf of the entire SALT team, this is John Darsie signing off for today from SALT Talks. We'll see you back here again tomorrow.