S1 | Media

Yasmeen Abutaleb & Damian Paletta: Nightmare Scenario | SALT Talks #243

“One of the biggest problems with this pandemic response was there was no one in charge. That had been an element of the Trump White House in the three previous years- he didn’t let anyone get too powerful.”

Yasmeen Abutaleb is a national reporter at The Washington Post, covering health policy, with a focus on the Department of Health and Human Services, health policy on Capitol Hill and health care in politics. She previously covered health care for Reuters. Damian Paletta is White House economic policy reporter for The Washington Post. Before joining The Post, he covered the White House for the Wall Street Journal.

Yasmeen Abutaleb and Damian Paletta detail many of the major missteps from the Trump administration’s pandemic response, including shelving a ready-made plan to ship masks to every American household. Abutaleb and Paletta highlight Trump’s contradictions in his call for vaccine credit while refusing to advocate seriously for his followers to take it. They note some of the ways a power vacuum in the White House left a pandemic response void and how public health officials like Dr. Fauci have been demonized and threatened.

LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE

SPEAKERS

Yasmeen Abutaleb.jpeg

Yasmeen Abutaleb

National Reporter

The Washington Post

Damian Paletta.jpeg

Damian Paletta

White House Economic Policy Reporter

The Washington Post

TIMESTAMPS

0:00 - Intro

3:17 - Pandemic missteps

6:35 - Trump administration’s war on science

9:48 - Operation Warp Speed and Trump base’s contradiction

14:17 - Anthony Fauci demonization and conspiracies

19:39 - Vaccine safety and convincing those who are hesitant

25:44 - Who was really in charge of the pandemic response in Trump administration?

30:45 - Establishing a record of Trump White House pandemic response

35:31 - Evaluating US public health agencies’ responses

39:50 - Missed opportunities to prevent death and economic fallout

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

John Darsie: (00:07)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Salt Talks. My name is John Darsie. I'm the managing director of Salt, which is a global thought leadership forum and networking platform at the intersection of finance, technology, and public policy. Salt Talks are a digital interview series with leading investors, creators and thinkers. And our goal on these talks is the same as our goal at our Salt conferences, which we're excited to hopefully resume here in September of 2021. And that's to provide a window into the mind of subject matter experts, as well as provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future. We're very excited today to welcome two fantastic journalists and authors to Salt Talks, they're out with a recent book about the Trump administration's response to the pandemic crisis. Yasmeen Abutaleb is a national reporter at the Washington Post covering health policy with a focus on the department of health and human services, health policy on Capitol Hill, and health care in politics.

John Darsie: (01:06)
Interesting beat to be on over the last 18 months to say the least. Damian Paletta is the White House economic policy reporter for The Washington Post. Before joining the Post, he covered the White House for the Wall Street Journal. The new book that these two co authored is called Nightmare Scenario: Inside the Trump Administration's Response to the Pandemic That Changed History. And I think as this entire wave of Trump books has come out, I think a lot of them there's a little bit of staleness to a lot of the content. We know that the administration was chaotic and incompetent, and politicized in many ways. But I think this book, very unique in the way it tackles the politics of the pandemic, and why it ended up being such a disaster that it was for the country.

John Darsie: (01:49)
But hosting today's talk is Anthony Scaramucci, who's the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge capital, which is a global alternative investment firm. I have to mention since we're talking about politics and public policy, that Anthony did spend 11 days within the Trump administration, as communications director, but with that, I'll turn it over to Anthony for the interview.

Anthony Scaramucci: (02:07)
So, you see, he's trying to knock me down a peg Yasmeen, you see what he's doing? Okay. That just, "Oh, he got fired from the White House after 11 days."

John Darsie: (02:17)
I didn't say fired. I said you spent 11 days-

Anthony Scaramucci: (02:21)
Let me just tell you something, okay? It's okay to do this in July, but I just want to let you know, I decide bonuses sometime around Thanksgiving. So you better stop between now and Thanksgiving, just let you know that.

Damian Paletta: (02:31)
He might have raised you up a peg actually by saying that you got out so quick.

Anthony Scaramucci: (02:35)
Well, yeah, it might have raised me up a peg that in fact I got fired.

John Darsie: (02:38)
It's a badge of honor at this point.

Anthony Scaramucci: (02:40)
Let's talk about this book, which is an incredible book, you guys did a brilliant job. And I started out by saying that a lot of it is hard to believe. Okay. So, let's start with you met Yasmeen. You wrote the book, Damian, you guys wrote the book. But when you're reading parts of it in terms of policies and decision making, it's like, "Oh, God, how could that have been made like that?" Tell us one of the more outrageous things that happened that you were like, "Okay, I can't believe I'm writing this, but it is factual, and so therefore I'm writing."

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (03:16)
I think one of the most devastating incidents Damian and I came across was this plan that a top health official had proposed to send a mask to every American household. They wanted to send a packet of five masks to every house in the US. And this official, Bob Kadlec, who was the head of emergency preparedness at the Health and Human Services Department, had already worked with a couple of undergarment manufacturers like, Jockey and Hanes, and the plan was that they were going to manufacture 650 million masks by sometime in May. And the goal was for the government to send these masks to everyone through the US Postal Service, which is an important detail for later. And that way you just depoliticize this whole thing. Obviously wearing masks was a pretty new concept to Americans. And they wanted to say, this recommendation's coming from the president, it's coming from the White House, just do this to protect yourself and protect your neighbor.

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (04:21)
And that plan got shot down in the task force for a couple of reasons. One was the vice president's chief of staff Mark Short, did not like that. He felt that Kadlec was freelancing, that he had sort of done this without going through the normal processes at the Office of Management and Budget. And part of the reason for that was because I think Kadlec knew it would probably get killed if he went through the process that way. And also that they didn't want to be alarmist, this was in late March, by sending masks to everyone. And even though the health officials had coalesced around recommending that all Americans wear masks, some of the political officials still were not on board with this and were afraid of how Trump's base might react. And so this was pulled off the agenda. Mark Short made sure it never got back on. And another part of the reason it got killed was because there was concerned that the President was not going to go for a plan that relied on the US Postal Service, because at the time, he was waging a war against the Postal Service.

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (05:18)
We're worried about mailing ballots ahead of the election. And so, Damian and I thought this was such a great example of the completely disastrous policymaking process throughout the response. It's not going through normal channels, it's yanked off the agenda not even discussed for political reasons. There's this President's weird aversion to the postal service. And so this whole plan gets mixed. And it's one of those moments where you just wonder how different things would have gone if in March and April and May, the government was just sending people masks and it was not turned into this political cudgel.

Anthony Scaramucci: (05:52)
So, Damian, you and I've talked before, let me hold up the book here, I've got it here on my phone, because I left it unfortunately on my nightstand last night. It's a brilliant book, it goes in depth detail on what happened and how many avoidable things there were. But to me Damian, one of the most alarming things in the book, and correct me if I'm wrong, it feels like the administration was waging an all out war against the medical and scientific community in the United States. That's the thing I got out of the book. And so why, Damian?

Damian Paletta: (06:31)
Well-

Anthony Scaramucci: (06:32)
Do I have that right first of all, and then secondarily why if I do?

Damian Paletta: (06:35)
Yes, absolutely. And it's I think one of the worst legacies. Obviously, the death of 600,000 people is a terrible, terrible legacy of this. But one of the worst legacies, is what we're living through now, which is that the President by attacking the scientists and medical professionals, has ceded all this distrust to this day in vaccines and science. So, not only is he... He's out of office, he's gone, right? He's lost his Twitter account. But there's still millions and millions of people who believe this mindset that he kind of implanted in them, which is, "I'm right, the scientists are wrong, believe me, don't believe them." And I think it really got started in the early days of this when to his credit, Azar, and obviously, Fauci and Birx and others were warning that this could be really bad.

Damian Paletta: (07:24)
And the President was so used to deflecting every crisis that came his way, whether it was the impeachment, or all these scandals with women and stuff, everything just sort of kind of fell off his back, he was like Teflon, and he said this would be gone in 15 days, there's just a few cases, when it gets warmer it's going to go away again. He was creating this counter narrative to all the science. And that got harder obviously, as the virus really sunk its teeth into the country. And so instead of kind of reversing course, or acknowledging, "Hey, the scientists were right, I was wrong," he just kind of doubled and tripled down. He brought in Scott Atlas and other people who would kind of reaffirm his beliefs that this was just like the flu. And there came a point when it was just too late to change course. Obviously, one of the biggest moments of this the best example, sadly, was when he got sick and nearly died.

Damian Paletta: (08:17)
He did not wear a mask, he packed the White House with people. He was a month from the election and his poll numbers were bad. So he was doing whatever, he could just kind of send this image that he was indestructible and the country's indestructible, and obviously, the virus got him and it got him bad. And over that weekend, Yasmeen and I report in the book, the doctors... The red field and others met and talked and said, "Well, let's pray that this is the moment, the kind of epiphany that he's needed to see how dangerous this is." And they thought there's no way this guy could be on the brink of death and emerge with the same kind of cavalier attitude about it. And sure enough, the whole world watched as he walked up the steps and took up the mask and said, "Don't be afraid." Read fields heart sank and a lot of other people thought, "Well, there's no way he's going to reverse course, now he's just going to drive us off the ledge." And that's what ended up happening.

Anthony Scaramucci: (09:10)
So, Yasmeen, explain this to me, because you write about it eloquently in the book, you guys do Operation Warp Speed, very successful, it was actually a great idea to funnel money out to the different pharmaceutical companies to backstop their risk taking to expedite the vaccine for the virus, and yet, they Trumpers, they don't want to take vac... So he should get credit for Operation Warp Speed, but at the same time, we're not going to take the vaccine that he should get credit for. So, can you square the circle for me?

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (09:48)
I wish I could. So, I think there's a couple different pieces to that. Yes, he deserves credit for Operation Warp Speed, as does his administration. And it's kind of funny in this ironic way, because the vaccine was probably the hardest thing to do, and to get it done in record time. And it's the one thing they did successfully. So, it's kind of heartbreaking in a way, because you wonder if they had brought the same level of focus and energy and resources to other parts of the response, how things might have gone differently. But yes, they decided to make this massive investment, to take out the financial risk for these companies so that they could just throw everything they had into the R&D of the vaccine. They helped them get access to manufacturing facilities that they could manufacture doses of vaccine before they knew if they worked to basically to get rid of lags in the whole process.

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (10:42)
But the President, while he does deserve credit for the administration taking this on, undercut confidence in the vaccine at every step of the way, because it became clear by the summer of 2020, and especially into the fall, as we got closer to the election, that he was berating the FDA to move faster on the vaccine, he made it clear and completely explicit terms that he wanted it before the election. And you could see in public polls, how much trust was falling in this whole process. You're already asking people to really trust that the FDA knows what it's doing because the fastest vaccine before this one had been developed in four years. Now, we're looking at one developed in under a year, so people need to feel assured that the FDA is not cutting corners, that it's doing a full safety and effectiveness evaluation. And if they feel like it's being done for political purposes, that's just going to undercut trust more and more. But unlike the Vice President, Dr. Fauci, a number of his administration officials, the President did not get vaccinated on TV, he did not sort of give a public display of confidence in the vaccine in that way, we found out-

Anthony Scaramucci: (11:51)
Why?

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (11:53)
Well, he has a complicated history with vaccine. So, a lot of his base are anti-vaxxers, they don't believe in this. They're fueling a number of conspiracy theories about the vaccine. You can see on Fox News every night, Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity who has changed his tune somewhat, are railing against vaccination campaigns and trying to get people vaccinated. So there's this dual thing of him wanting the vaccine before the election because he thinks it will give people confidence the virus will go away, but also not wanting to alienate that portion of his base. And he also has his own complicated view on vaccines. He's kind of flirted with anti-vaccine views in the past. And if he didn't get vac-

Anthony Scaramucci: (12:34)
Yeah. And he thinks it's experitorial, he throws out there. It's like a doorframe log, anything that you can throw sows the seeds of distrust he'll throw it out there. I'm sorry, but go ahead.

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (12:45)
Well, to your point when you were asking the question, there's this dual thing of wanting credit for the vaccines, but also not doing anything to help more people get vaccinated. What a lot of I think doctors including Dr. Fauci learned last year was that Trump supporters really hang on his every word. So you just have to wonder how many more people would get vaccinated among the holdouts right now, if the President had, A, gotten vaccinated on TV, and B, was out there right now saying, "This was such a big accomplishment of my administration, you should go out and get the vaccine. It's safe and effective." But of course, we're not seeing that happen.

Damian Paletta: (13:21)
I would just add to that, Anthony. There's actually no evidence that he has been vaccinated. Okay? He said it on Fox News on a radio interview. There's no photograph, as he has been said, there's no doctor Who said anything. I think this kind of allows his supporters to-

Anthony Scaramucci: (13:39)
You've never met a bigger baby than this guy, trust me, he's been vaccinated. Okay? He's a big, big, baby. I guarantee that he's been vaccinated with or without his diaper. I'm not sure. But let's go to a question that's important to me. This is the Rand Paul, Anthony Fauci squaring off on each other. So, go ahead. Obviously, I'm biased, so you have to forgive me. I know Anthony Fauci a long time, [inaudible 00:14:08] rumors around respect for him. And I think that Rand Paul wears a tinfoil hat to work. But go ahead. You tell me what's going on there.

Damian Paletta: (14:18)
Well, I would just... The opening scene of the book is from August 2020, when Fauci takes a letter that he received in his house and opens it in his office with a letter opener and all this white powder kind of explodes all over his face. And he screams for security, they have to strip them down, essentially naked and decontaminate him. They thought it could be ricin or anthrax. There were a lot of people who wanted to hurt this guy. And in part, it was because of people like Rand Paul and President Trump, who were just you know, demonizing him and alleging that he was destroying the country. I think the threats against Fauci have only gotten worse since the inauguration of Biden. A lot of people including Rand Paul, have essentially suggested it was all Fauci's fault that Biden won, that Trump lost. Rand Paul, I think was one of the first members of Congress to get Coronavirus. He's still refuse to wear a mask. He is kind of an outlier in terms of Congress in his thinking on the Fed and the economy.

Damian Paletta: (15:19)
But there are many millions of people who agree with his conspiracy theory that Fauci created the virus in cahoots with the Chinese and this kind of stuff. It's completely out of this world crazy, but he continues to feed it. And I think Fauci does go toe to toe with him. A lot of people on Capitol Hill when they testify, will be careful not to be too adversarial. But Fauci, you can see how pissed he is that this guy has the nerve, this doctor no less has the nerve to question him. Yasmeen and I, we've talked about it a lot. It's not going to go away. And Fauci is not going to back down and this guys 80 years old, and he visibly pissed.

Anthony Scaramucci: (16:03)
But I mean-

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (16:04)
And I think...

Anthony Scaramucci: (16:06)
Well, let's talk for our viewers benefit. Yasmeen, what are the allegations that Senator Paul is making? And then what is the refutation of those allegations?

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (16:18)
So a lot of this, and Senator Paul started this last spring. And it's just the theme in all these hearings whenever Fauci appears before the Senate Health Committee, that the virus may have accidentally escaped or was engineered in a lab in Wuhan, that the NIH had indirectly had provided some funding to. So, the short version of it is, there's no evidence that the virus was deliberately engineered and unleashed on the world. That's been pretty clearly shot down. There are still questions about whether it may have accidentally leaked out of the lab and started an outbreak that way. And the way it accidentally leaked is it maybe infects a lab worker, and the outbreak goes from there. And what happened was the NIH had provided this grant to a New York group called Eco Health Alliance back in 2014. And part of that grant went to the Wuhan lab, because they are one of the top labs in the world one of two or three on coronaviruses, because so many of them originate in China.

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (17:17)
So, there are all these allegations that the NIH funded the Wuhan lab and of course, there are some right wing conspiracy theorists who have taken that several steps further, said Dr. Fauci, worked with the Wuhan lab to create the virus and unleash it which of course, is nonsense, that the root of this is that a sub grant from the NIH went to the Wuhan lab, and it's like a $600,000 grant. And that grant was actually suspended last year when these questions started circulating about the origins of the virus, which we still don't know. But Senator Paul, in every hearing, insist on bringing this up. And then the hearing just a few days ago, he took it further than he ever has by accusing Fauci of perjuring himself by lying to Congress. And that's when you saw Fauci really kind of stand up and defend himself because he said, "I've never lied." He said, "If anyone was lying, it was Senator Paul."

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (18:11)
Because Senator Paul was trying to imply or not even imply, just state that Fauci had lied to Congress by saying that the NIH had not funded what's called gain of function research at the Wuhan lab, which there's no way to know whether the lab was conducting it or not, but the NIH grant was not approved for those purposes.

Anthony Scaramucci: (18:32)
So, I know John has a ton of questions for you guys. But I have one more question that's bothering me a lot. And I want to get both of your reactions to. I have family members that won't get vaccinated. I have school teacher friends of mine that will not get vaccinated. I came in this morning to a litany of email death threats, because I was on CNBC last Friday telling people they have to get vaccinated if they want to come to our conference if they want to work here at SkyBridge. And so now I'm a fascist for wanting to be vaccinated. But when we were fighting the Nazis in World War Two, we had a draft mandate, and everybody had to go to the drip.

Anthony Scaramucci: (19:11)
All we're asking people to do now is to take a jab to protect their fellow men and women. So what am I getting wrong? Are these vaccines... This is a question for both you, two part question. Are these vaccines safe? Yes or no? And why? And then secondarily, what can we do if they are safe? And I believe that they are. What can we do to change the hearts and minds of these people? So let's start with you, Damien. Are these vaccines safe? Yes or no?

Damian Paletta: (19:40)
I think the vaccines are absolutely safe. At this point, they've administered more than 100 million in the United States. Okay. There have been some cases that required more study, but there wasn't anything that made them feel like they were unsafe. There are some breakthrough cases now we're hearing about. When you have a vaccine that's miraculously 95% effective, that 5%, when you do more than 100 million people, there's still going to be people who become sick, but they don't tend to... The symptoms are better and it's less severe. So, yes, the vaccine is safe.

Anthony Scaramucci: (20:16)
Is there a microchip in the vaccine-

Damian Paletta: (20:18)
No.

Anthony Scaramucci: (20:19)
... where the government's monitoring you?

Damian Paletta: (20:21)
No, but-

Anthony Scaramucci: (20:22)
Is it genetically altering your DNA, so you're going to-

Damian Paletta: (20:26)
No.

Anthony Scaramucci: (20:27)
... turn into something that's not human?

Damian Paletta: (20:29)
It is not. It is a vaccine, the kind of vaccine that you've been given since you were six months old, you've been getting vaccines, okay? It's the top scientists in the world, it really is a miracle that they were able to do this in under a year. And there's literally more than 100 million people who have gotten one of three different shots in the past six months in this country, and are participating in society and healthy and running and playing basketball and baseball, and everything's going... And having babies and everything is working like it should. Now, it seems like a ridiculous thing when you mentioned microchips. Okay? But there was a recent survey that was done that said of the people who refuse to get vaccinated, more than 50% Anthony, believe that there is some kind of microchip that's being inserted. Okay? It's such a ridiculous thing to... I'm not being elitist.

Anthony Scaramucci: (21:30)
No. But I look, I grew up in a blue collar family, these people distrust... You have to understand the blue collar people feel they've been left out of the system. So, they distrust the system and they distrust the establishment. Let me... Yasmeen, let me ask you this question because I just want to get your view on it. What do you say to somebody that's not vaccinated? I'm sure you've met them. Maybe you have them in your... I have them in my family. So, what do you say?

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (21:57)
Yeah, I think all of us have people in our families or in our friend groups who are not getting vaccinated for any number of reasons. I think one thing that's really important is to not be condescending to people who are not getting it for one reason or another, but just explaining to them why they should trust it, the process that it had to go through to be evaluated as safe and effective. Why it's not going to... That people are seriously concerned it's going to alter your DNA. And there's a simple answer to that-

Anthony Scaramucci: (22:26)
Is it going to make people infertile?

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (22:28)
No, it's not. And I've had friends who are six, seven.eight months pregnant, getting the vaccine in the third trimester of their pregnancy, they all delivered healthy babies, people who got the vaccine before they got pregnant, one of my friends got it just a couple months before she got pregnant, and now she's pregnant. So, there's no effect on fertility. It's been studied, it will continue to be studied. And I think like Damien said, we've now seen it administered in hundreds of millions of people. I think one thing that's important to understand about vaccines, is for every vaccine on the market, there are adverse events, we just normally don't pay as close attention to other vaccines, because they don't have the same kind of historic nature of this one. This one's kind of unique in that we're all getting it no matter what age group at the same time, as opposed to childhood vaccines or late adulthood ones or whatever they might be.

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (23:20)
So, I think it's important to understand what a particular person's concerns are, if it's that their DNA is going to be altered, I think people are mixing of DNA and mRNA, which is what the Pfizer and Madonna vaccines are. So, you can just simply tell them, it's actually an mRNA vaccine, it has nothing to do with your DNA, there is no concern that your DNA is going to be altered. On the microchip piece of it, I know that that's a serious concern that people have, I think you have to explain why that's just not a possibility. You can't put a microchip in a vaccine vial. And that would never be approved by the FDA, you can't secretly do that kind of thing. So, I think a lot of this is just a lack of trust in the process, a lack of trust in the FDA and our public institutions for the reasons that you stated that people feel like they've been left behind. So, I think it's important to meet people where they are and address their concerns head on, not just keep yelling at them that it's safe and effective, safe and effective.

Anthony Scaramucci: (24:16)
Yeah. I take your point because it is a control thing for some people. You don't want to sound condescending, you need to get them to make an informed choice. I'm going to turn it over to John Darsie, who's got a series of questions and he gets a lot of attention because he gets fan mail. I get hate mail. People are threatening to kill me because I'm a pro-vaxxer, but John gets fan mail about these Salt Talks. And he always reminds me of the fan mail that he's getting. So, just do me a favor, when he asks a good question, don't say, "Oh, that's a really good question." Because it will upset me. Okay? Go ahead, Darsie. Go ahead.

John Darsie: (24:50)
I like to say that I indirectly get death threats directed at you into just our generic inboxes at SkyBridge and Salt. So-

Anthony Scaramucci: (24:58)
We get a lot of [inaudible 00:24:59] death threats too. Yeah.

John Darsie: (25:00)
Right.

Anthony Scaramucci: (25:01)
I want people to get vaccinated. I think they... Well, that's all. They get upset with me. Go ahead, John.

John Darsie: (25:06)
Yeah. So, one thing you guys tackled in the book that I think is fascinating and sort of symptomatic, if you will, of the way the Trump administration operated, is it who was really in charge of the pandemic response within the White House? Was it something that Trump was commanding control, and he was day to day in there, obviously, monitoring logistics around the vaccine development and response to the pandemic? Was Jared Kushner? Was it Mike Pence, who was initially put in charge of the task force? Who was the one that was really leading the charge, and ultimately, had some accountability about the response? And I'll start with you on that one, Damien.

Damian Paletta: (25:44)
I would say that no one was in charge. At any given point, the President was in charge briefly, Jared Kushner was in charge of getting masks and gowns briefly, Mike Pence was supposed to be in charge of the task force, but he was constantly being undermined. And he was kind of trying to deal with all these conflicting forces, whether they were political or health. Deborah Birx was in charge of certain things, but then she was dramatically undermined. And then Anthony Fauci, I think had a big role in messaging and did a lot behind the scenes with the vaccine and other things, but the White House did everything they could to keep him from being too powerful. Then you had Mark Meadows, who would come in when he could to kind of cut the legs out from under certain people when he thought they were getting too powerful, Alex Azar started out with a lot of power initially, but the White House kind of reined him in.

Damian Paletta: (26:38)
So I think one of the biggest problems with this whole response was that there was no one in charge. And unfortunately, that had kind of been an element of the Trump White House for the previous three years that worked for the president. He didn't let anyone get too powerful. There was a rotating cast of Chiefs of Staff, by not allowing anyone to become too important and play too much of a leadership role. It allowed him to kind of keep everyone on their toes, made people more sycophantic because they were always worried about how they would look in his eyes. And so in a case like this, when there was a public health crisis, when you needed truth and information delivered quickly, it was a huge part of the problem in the response.

John Darsie: (27:18)
Yasmeen, do you have anything to add to that?

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (27:23)
I think Damian hit on it. And we say this in the book. In many ways, it was designed so that no one was ever truly in charge. Because the president wanted to be able to append things or decide to do things differently at any point in time. And so, one of the... I think this was probably the most damaging element of the response, is that without leadership, people don't know who they're supposed to listen to, everyone can try to undercut each other and go behind each other's backs. And when you're fighting a virus this difficult and this lethal, you all have to kind of put aside your differences and unite to fight the virus. That is not what they were doing at all. And it's because at any point in time, people could come in and try to outwit each other or try to one up each other and take over the response.

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (28:07)
And you saw that happen multiple times a month. Like Damien said, you had Azar, and then you had Pence, and then you had Kushner for a little bit, and then Kushner left and then Birx never really had the autonomy she wanted. So it's just... In the end, it was just kind of this team of vipers all vying to see who would come out on top.

John Darsie: (28:27)
Right. And it's almost as if at this point in the administration's lifecycle, that everybody had been hollowed out from the administration, who had the gumption to challenge the President and to tell him hard truths. And it's almost like we worried for four years about a bonafide crisis bubbling up that the Trump administration with all of its issues would have to deal with. We got one in the last year of his presidency at a time when he was surrounded all sort of by yes men that just wanted to save their own skin, rather than serve the public good. Is that an accurate assessment, Damien?

Damian Paletta: (29:03)
Absolutely. And I think, Kelly's gone, Tillerson's gone, Meadows is gone, a lot of the people who were kind of tough enough to stand up to him, obviously... Nielsen was gone, the people who weren't necessarily going to do whatever he said, had been pushed out. And so, I was actually just thinking, Anthony mentioned, we talked a lot about vaccines, as we should continue to talk for months. But one of... If you remember that moment in March, when they finally agreed as a taskforce that they should advocate for people to wear masks.

Damian Paletta: (29:33)
And then the President goes up to make the announcement and says, "Well, I'm not gonna wear one, it's voluntary." So then, the country's like, "Well, who do we believe? Do we believe Fauci? Who a lot of the country believed at the time, or do we believe when the president says he's not going to wear one, and we love him, maybe we shouldn't wear one either. And it was that kind of stuff. The lack of a single person kind of delivering a specific message that has plagued the process to this day.

John Darsie: (29:58)
Right. And the point you were making earlier Damian about there being no concrete evidence or testimony from a doctor about Trump getting a vaccine, I thought was very interesting, and one that I've never thought about before. And he sort of takes that approach with a lot of different issues, whether it be things like immigration and racism, he winks at certain things without fully endorsing them to sort of allow him to play both sides of the coin. So, in this case, I guess you were saying that there's no hard evidence of him getting vaccinated, but he says he got vaccinated. So if he gets challenged on it, he can say, "Well, I got vaccinated, why are you blaming me?" But at the same time, the vaccine hesitant and the conspiratorial side of his base, can still say, "Oh, he didn't actually mean it. He's just trying to appease sort of the woke movement by saying that he got vaccinated." Is that sort of what you were hinting at?

Damian Paletta: (30:45)
Exactly. And I think as you guys know, with the challenge of writing this book, Yasmeen and I felt really strongly that there had to be a book about the pandemic response. There's a lot of Trump books about different things and there should be, but there needed to be a specific book about the response. So, one of our biggest challenges was, Well, what do we know? There was so much misinformation and lying and deception, we really wanted to break down what we knew. And so when we reconstructed that weekend that he was sick, we really spent a ton of time going to different people to try to find out what exactly happened, who exactly was talking to who, how sick was he really? Because you can't trust the things that were coming out of his mouth or some of his senior aids mouths, we really thought it was important almost as a historical document, to really find out exactly what happened.

Damian Paletta: (31:36)
And so when he says on a Tuesday night at 9:30 on Fox News that he got vaccinated, well, it's up to us to try to find out whether he can back that up. And by not backing that up whether he was or he wasn't, people can interpret it however they want to interpret it. And obvious, months later they have.

John Darsie: (31:54)
Yasmeen, how hard was that reporting around his visit to the hospital when he was infected with COVID? It was the first time that I had seen a detailed in depth reporting of those events that matched up with some things that we had heard from other sources, but nobody in the media had written about all those inner workings of that visit, and just how close he might have been to dying from COVID, which obviously would have thrown the country into chaos. But how hard was that reporting relative to other things that you guys have reported on within the Trump administration?

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (32:27)
It was really difficult because at the end of the day, it was a national security failure, right? They didn't protect the president. That's a complete dereliction of duty. And they had the tools they needed to protect him, but they just refused, including the President refused to use them, whether it was masks or regular testing at the White House or using more reliable tests. So, Damian and I were reporting for the Post at the time. And I remember reporting on that weekend, we could not get clear answers, we really did not know what was going on. We tried for weeks, and then of course it was the election before we knew it. But when we were recording that weekend and the days following, we kept asking the White House, "Are you contact tracing to try to find out where the President got the infection from and where everyone else got the infection from? Which event was the super spreader event?" But people thought it was the big event they had had in the Rose Garden for Amy Coney Barrett's Supreme Court nomination.

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (33:27)
And the White House was getting so annoyed at those questions, because they were like, "Why are you asking us for the third day in a row for contact tracing? It's over, the investigations over." And I think that was just such a clear indication of that they really didn't want the answers to these questions. He got out of the hospital, he made it through. So it was really hard to get answers, and Damien and I couldn't actually get them until pretty close to when we were wrapping up the book, because a lot of the people who actually did know about the President's condition, and how sick he was and how the events unfolded that weekend, were not ready to talk about it until they knew he had lost the election. He was out of power, and that they were not going to go back in and work in the Trump administration or the next administration.

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (34:10)
So it was really only several weeks after the inauguration that we could start getting the people who actually knew to open up. Because it turned out a lot of his closest advisors themselves had no idea what was going on that weekend.

John Darsie: (34:25)
Right. Yeah, it was certainly a tight circle of people that I think understood the gravity of what was going on. You could piece it together based on certain treatments that he was getting, but there was no... You couldn't responsibly report it in something like the Washington Post without verifying some of those sources. But, Yasmeen, I have another question for you. And it's about the public health community. Obviously, they've done yeoman's work during the pandemic, Dr. Fauci has been sleeping four or five hours a night at most as he's helped us work through the pandemic and he's one of many people that have been instrumental in trying to limit the number of deaths and infections from COVID. But the CDC, the FDA, there's been certain periods of this pandemic that haven't necessarily covered themselves in glory, they've given out either confusing guidance, or they've had to backtrack on different recommendations they've given. We're obviously sort of in the heat of battle still right now when it comes to fighting COVID.

John Darsie: (35:15)
So I don't think there's going to be a lot of hand wringing right now. But how do you think long-term, we might sort of reevaluate the way these public health organizations operate in terms of maintaining consistency, accountability, and things like that?

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (35:31)
I'm so glad you asked that, because obviously, we spend a lot of time focusing on Trump. One of the strengths Damian and I thought of this book is that we've dive pretty deep into the health agencies and to other people who were involved in the response. The President's one of several characters throughout the book. So, I think this pandemic has really, really stress test the health agencies, especially the CDC and the FDA. And I think you're seeing the effects of that now still, even though Trump's not an office, they have a president who says he's going to follow the science and that they can go where the science leads them, they're still making a number of unforced errors and mistakes. And I think part of that is the fatigue of dealing with the pandemic for a year and a half. And also that they're not structured to deal with something like this. They're really not.

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (36:19)
The CDC was supposed to be the leader in the world, they really failed in this response in multiple ways. And a lot of that rests with Trump and political interference. But a lot of it also rests with the agency, just that it's a very slow moving agency, it is not designed to respond to such a fast moving virus like this, they were way too slow with a number of decisions, because they kind of rests on academic science, and they're not as good at moving in with real time data and not having the perfect academic data, but saying, "Okay, this is what we're seeing happening on the ground and this is what we should do now."Like with masks, with the test, with some of their guidances. You see, even now with them kind of wringing their hands over what to do about the masks guidance with the Delta variant. And the FDA had so many forced errors last year in authorizing hydroxychloroquine, with no evidence that it worked. And the doctors could already prescribe it if they wanted to, with this whole debacle over convalescent plasma.

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (37:19)
The reason they held firm on the vaccine, I think is because they had had so many disasters leading up to it, that they were like, "We're at risk of destroying this agency's 114 year reputation, if we don't hold firm on this." And they had seen the effects of making the wrong decision on these other treatments or rolling it out in the wrong way. So, they really didn't cut corners on the vaccine, which obviously was great. But you see them now still struggling with a number of things, and they have so much on their plate. So, I think hopefully people don't forget this pandemic too quickly, once we hopefully get through it. And really think about why our public institutions were not set up to respond very well to many parts of this crisis and what they need, whether it's, maybe the CDC has too much responsibility, maybe they need more flexibility, maybe the FDA needs to be structured differently. But I think there needs to be a number of sort of after action reports, hopefully some kind of congressional investigation to look at why the US public health institutions didn't do a better job.

John Darsie: (38:22)
Right. I think there's sort of a middle ground between sort of unbridled veneration of a lot of the agencies and the public figures that have led our response to the crisis that haven't always done the right thing and openly or questioning all institutions. I think, certainly some critical questions can be asked of certain agencies and people in regard to the response, but I don't think that means we should be questioning science at its heart. But I want to ask you a question for both of you sort of in the same vein, and it starts with Yasmeen. How many people and I know there's been public comment from various public health officials on this, but we have 600,000 plus people have died from COVID-19 in the United States. What's the number that if we had had a competent and rapid response to the pandemic, what's the realistic number that we could have hoped to limit it to in terms of the number of deaths? We'll start with that. And then Damien, they've always, I think the Trump administration, they looked at the economic impacts and the public health impact of COVID as distinct items.

John Darsie: (39:24)
It's like, "If we just keep things open, the economy will keep going." That was pretty much disproven, I think, people if they were going to get sick and potentially die, they weren't going to go out in public to restaurants and things like that. So what do you think the economic impact could have been? Let's say we had a competent response early on in the pandemic, what do you think the economic in terms of mitigating the economic impacts we could have had? We'll start with Yasmeen and then go to Damien on the second question.

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (39:51)
I will say they didn't say the good things to agencies did, but they did, they did a lot right too. I don't know that we know one exact number for how many fewer people would have died with a different response, because there's so many elements to it. There are studies that have shown if everyone had worn masks, you could have prevented I think 60,000 deaths or something around that by last August. And that would have been dramatically more for that devastating winter surge. So, I think it's safe to say hundreds of thousands of deaths could have been prevented with a better response with something as universal as... or as simple as just getting most people to wear masks. Mask wearing was great in some parts of the country and almost non existent in other parts.

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (40:34)
And then of course, I think consistent messaging would have made a really big difference, there's such a divide in how seriously people perceive the threat of the virus. And that affected what measures they were willing to take. And then of course, the fact that the US has a pretty poor safety net just made this exponentially more difficult for low income people, for essential workers who have to go into work. And then of course, for communities of color, black and Hispanic people were three times more likely to die than white people from the virus. So, there were a number of factors. But if there had been an administration paying attention to all of these issues, and continually stressing the need to wear masks that it had never gotten to the point it's gotten now, I think it is safe to say hundreds of thousands of deaths would have been prevented.

Damian Paletta: (41:23)
And on the economy, it's such a interesting question. I think what they did, and what they had to do at the time was an enormous amount of government assistance in March with the two trillion dollar Cares Act, and then they had to come back again, with another couple trillion dollars as the year went on. And so what they did in a way was they prevented... The stock market came back with the help of the Federal Reserve starting in late March of 2020 to now, where it's at record levels. Unfortunately, the White House saw the stock market rebound as their indicator that the economy was fine. And really what had happened was the economy was kind of addicted to government support. Because they gave hundreds of billions of dollars in small businesses, the stimulus checks went out, unemployment assistance went out, there was no way and to this day it continues, the government is still so attracted in the economy, that we don't know what will happen when a lot of these programs are allowed to expire. Can all these small businesses stand on their own two feet? We don't know.

Damian Paletta: (42:25)
Will the airline industry really come back, or if the Delta variant really sweeps through Europe, is that going to knock the travel industry off? I don't know. I think what we have to consider is that the hard things were not fixed. There're still millions and millions of Americans who do not have jobs because their job has disappeared. It's not like they're waiting for their employer to rehire them, the company doesn't exist anymore, or doesn't need them anymore because of automation or some other reason. And we're seeing these huge supply chain problems, the rental car industry is a total disaster, you can sell your used car now for more than you bought it for when it was new.

Damian Paletta: (43:06)
There's just these things in the economy that are broken. And the easy thing was just to give everyone money, and they had to do that. People needed to survive. But we don't know now what will happen when for example, the rental protections expire. Are they really going to kick hundreds of thousands or millions of people out of their apartments? These harder things haven't been done yet. And that's the legacy of the pandemic. And that's going to be really hard for the Biden administration to sort out.

John Darsie: (43:34)
Well, Damien and Yasmeen, it's been a pleasure to have you on again, I think you wrote in a sea of, I'm not going to say generic books and criticize the other books. But there's been a lot of political analysis of the Trump administration, while you guys certainly integrated politics into your discussion, I think it was a masterclass and just evaluating the administration's response to the pandemic, and something that's still ongoing and still affecting us today. What was their initial response and the sort of cleaning up of that process? But Anthony, do have a final word before we let Damien and Yasmeen go?

Anthony Scaramucci: (44:06)
No, I applaud the truth in your book, I'm shocked by a lot of the decisions that were born from ignorance or insecurity frankly, and I think it's a cautionary tale about the centralization of power frankly, because if you get one person in the mix, they can be destabilizing to a whole group of people that know better. And so I think that's really the lesson of the book. So, I just want to thank you, because it's a big contribution. And I know people will look back on it and say that this was very valuable to understanding what happened during one of our worst public health and safety crisis, which is still going on unfortunately.

Damian Paletta: (44:47)
Yeah. Well, that means a lot, Anthony. Thank you so much for saying that.

Anthony Scaramucci: (44:51)
It's the-

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (44:52)
Yeah, thanks for letting us come on and talk about it.

Anthony Scaramucci: (44:53)
No, we're going to sell a lot of books for you guys. You deserve it and we wish you nothing but great success with it.

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (44:58)
Thank you so much.

John Darsie: (44:59)
Well, they don't need our help, they were an instant bestseller. Again, the book is Nightmare Scenario: Inside the Trump Administration's Response to the Pandemic That Changed History. If you haven't ordered it, or haven't read it, we definitely highly recommend it.

Anthony Scaramucci: (45:13)
By the way, Yasmeen, he did ask very good questions though. It's sort of upsetting me.

Yasmeen Abutaleb: (45:18)
He did. He boasted. He boasted-

Anthony Scaramucci: (45:20)
No, he has very good question. Better stop with the firing stuff though, come November, because I'm obviously-

John Darsie: (45:29)
I didn't say firing, I just said [crosstalk 00:45:31]-

Anthony Scaramucci: (45:30)
I'm almost a senior citizen now, so I'm going to be forgetting the fact that you were bringing it up in July by the time your bonus gets set. But you should stop it at some point. I'm just letting you know.

John Darsie: (45:39)
I just said you spent a very illustrious 11 days in my opinion, it was the best 11 days of the entire-

Anthony Scaramucci: (45:45)
It was 954,000 seconds. That's what I have to tell my therapist. Okay? So, everybody relax.

John Darsie: (45:52)
All right. Well, thank you guys again, and thank you, everybody for tuning in to today's Salt Talk with Damian and Yasmeen, talking about their book. Just a reminder, if you missed any part of this talk or any of our previous Salt Talks, you can access them on our website on demand@salt.org\talks, or on our YouTube channel, which is called SaltTube. We're also on social media, Twitter is where we're most active @SaltConference, where Anthony gets a lot of his death threats, but we're also on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook as well. I'm happy to Anthony and the entire Salt team. This is John Darsie signing off for today. We hope to see you back here again soon.

Gary Vaynerchuk: The Future of NFTs | SALT Talks #210

“Imagine if Nirvana came out today and said ‘for our earliest fans, we’re going to give away 20% of our royalties in perpetuity if you buy this token for $2K because we don’t want to sign with this label and give up all our rights’… you’re talking about a substantial shift in how economics play out.”

Gary Vaynerchuk is a serial entrepreneur, author, speaker and angel investor. He is the co-founder and CEO of VaynerMedia, a global creative and media agency.

Non-fungible tokens (NFT’s) are digital representations that take up a block of the blockchain that have an underlying smart contract. There will be massive growth in the creation of NFT’s as vehicles for social currency. For example, it could allow a music band to issue NFT tokens that pay royalties to those token-holders instead of signing with a record label. The inevitable flood of NFT’s, though, will force the issuer to foster a community that drives demand. “NFT’s only have so much demand against it, so people are going to be in for some rude awakenings… If you don’t want to take the bag up front from the big brand, you better build an actual community.”

This belief in the future of NFT’s has led to Gary Vee’s own NFT project. 10,225 VeeFriends tokens will be auctioned off and ownership of a token will act as a ticket to VeeCon, a yearly conference that will be hosted over three years.

LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE

SPEAKER

Gary Vaynerchuk.jpeg

Gary Vaynerchuk

Chairman, CEO

VaynerX, VaynerMedia

MODERATOR

Anthony Scaramucci

Founder & Managing Partner

SkyBridge

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

John Darcie: (00:08)
Hello everyone. And welcome back to salt talks. My name is John Darcie. I'm the managing director of salt, which is a global thought leadership forum and networking platform at the intersection of finance technology and public policy. Salt talks are a digital interview series with leading investors, creators, and thinkers. And our goal on these salt talks is the same as our goal at our salt conferences, which our guests today, uh, data fantastic presentation at a few years ago. And we're excited to resume those conferences, uh, in September in New York this year for the first time. Uh, but, uh, our goal at those conferences and our goal on these salt talks is to provide a window into the mind of subject matter experts, as well as provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future. And we're very excited today to welcome Gary Vaynerchuk to salt talks, Gary V uh, as he's known to many, uh, he is a man who needs no introduction, but I'll give an introduction.

John Darcie: (01:02)
Anyways. Uh, Gary is a serial entrepreneur and he serves as the chairman of Vayner X and the CEO of Vayner media. Uh, Gary is considered one of the leading global minds on what's next in culture relevance and the internet known to many, as I mentioned, as Gary V he's described as one of the most forward thinkers in business. He acutely recognizes trends and patterns early to help others understand how these shifts impact markets and consumer behavior, whether it's emerging artists, e-sports in Ft investing, which is what we're going to talk about here today, or digital communications. Gary understands how to bring brand relevance to the forefront. He's a prolific angel investor with early investments in companies, including Facebook, Twitter, tumbler, Venmo, Snapchat, and most recently Coinbase, uh, hosting today's talk is Anthony Scaramucci, who is the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge capital, which is a global alternative investment firm. Anthony is also the chairman of salts. And with that, I'll turn it over to Anthony for the interview

Anthony Scaramucci: (02:03)
And bestselling author and wine connoisseur wine genius. I might add fellow hunt and fish club owner.

John Darcie: (02:11)
You said bestselling author. I thought you were referring to yourself. And I was going to ask you for having bought so many books and put them in your base. I am

Anthony Scaramucci: (02:17)
A best-selling author. If you don't believe me coming to my base copies that I had to buy that's where Darcie was going. Okay. We're back in our offices. I shoved Darcie in the closet. That's why he has that low age geography going there. Okay. But you're still looking good Dorsey, but you're great at explaining things in a simple way. And I want to go right to this, cause this is big in your life right now, in your own words, what are NFTs?

Gary Vaynerchuk: (02:48)
And if these are non fungible tokens, that's what it stands for. They're digital representations that take up a block on the blockchain that references to it's a of data, but has an underlining smart contract underneath it that you can use for amazing creativity. So a couple of things, let me take a step back because that meant very little to everybody. Let me do it my way. And thank you for saying that does a blue check on Instagram and Twitter matter. Cause it's a digital thing, but does it matter? I believe it does. Um, does a fortnight skin matter or roadblocks or, or a game up or did a sheep matter to some of the people that are watching right now that played Farmville? Do digital assets mean something in a world where humans spend so much time in digital? And so what I think we're talking about actually, yeah, that he is social currency, no different than what car you drive, where you live, what clothes you wear.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (03:50)
Because I think what people are missing is one the right now all the hype is around the art and the collectibles. But that's very similar to what I saw with the internet in 95, when people were just focused on search engines and browsers, and it seemed to spot exactly the same path, which is why this web three O thing feels very real. To me, one, the macro about Ft is here to stay books. When, when salt sells tickets in three years, it will be in the form of an NFT, which will then be its ticket, but then becomes a digital asset for the future, which people may have in their public wallets in seven years. And I meet, you know, Darcie at a business meeting and instead of just Googling him or looking at his Instagram, I'm going to look at his public wallet and be like, oh, you've got to solve for seven years. We've got a connection. So I think that there's a very similar thing here brewing, but it is a digital asset. It is a digital asset that is non, that is authenticated on the blockchain, which creates an incredible Providence and, and uh, authenticity layer that is going to matter in our society.

Speaker 4: (05:01)
So I'm an old fogy.

Anthony Scaramucci: (05:04)
Let me see if I can characterize it. You say yes or no at the end of the day, it is an original. And so you have to think about it as a virtual original. So if I've got a piece of art, that's digitized, but I actually have the code that's assigned to it in an NFT. I own that original piece of art, but I owned it in the ether. Is that fair to say

Gary Vaynerchuk: (05:28)
Yes, but I think the thing that everyone, this is what happens when Banksy, you know, isn't that banks, same, same ship people sells. Yep. When, when Mike sells his part for 69 million and when NBA top shot does a good really in dollars, you know, out of nowhere, everyone is so rightfully so, so focused there. Yep. I think the thing for people to understand is why does this really matter? Because your apartment is going to be, this is a ledger. This is a ledger, no different than the, that the county has for your home. This is going to be the underlining infrastructure for contracts. People are going to get married on the blockchain. Their certificate will be an NFT. This is, this is how people are going to do leases, sell their homes and their all the intellectual property in the world is going to play in this ecosystem.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (06:17)
So if you're a music artist, you can, you can sell 20% of your IP upfront through a token, as a pre-sale mixed tape. So that early fan base can be a part of it. Cause it's all gonna be ledgered in perpetuity against every royalty. Imagine if Nirvana came out today and said, Hey, for our earliest fans, we're going to give away 20% of our royalties in perpetuity. If you buy this token for $2,000, because we don't want to sign with this label, right. And give up all our rights. All of a sudden, we've got a scenario where here I am today, every time teen Spirit's playing on Spotify, because I happened to be in the Pacific Northwest in 1989 and believed in that band, I'm retired. That's exactly. I mean, you're talking about a substantial shift in the way economics play out.

Anthony Scaramucci: (07:10)
I think, I think it's, I think it's a brilliant description. Uh, you're a great simplifier of complex things. What do NFTs mean for the culture? Is it good or bad for the culture? Good or bad for business? It's good innovation. So who is good about it? Of course,

Gary Vaynerchuk: (07:28)
There's, there's unlimited things that are potentially bad. It's the human race, you know, we're star wars out here, the dark side and the jetties are very close to each other, but the good always wins in the end. I mean,

Anthony Scaramucci: (07:38)
You and I are on a good side. Okay. And I do know that when my children say to me, okay, one of my kids calls me Darth Vader.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (07:47)
That's another podcast for another day.

Anthony Scaramucci: (07:49)
It terms of artists, athletes, intellectual property in general. Good. Right?

Gary Vaynerchuk: (07:54)
Good for the artist, bad for the people that used to sit in the middle and take huge economics for being in the middle.

Anthony Scaramucci: (08:00)
Right. So, but, but isn't that true about everything with de-centralize finance contracting is the blockchain and the internet and the

Gary Vaynerchuk: (08:12)
Role, this funny little man out internet, we were like, oh, the middleman, the internet was a preview. Blockchain is an extremity. Now the problem is all these artists athletes. They're like, oh, this is awesome. I'm not giving up any of my bag anymore. These people, they, they walked into a buzzsaw. There's another part of it. You have to create demand. It's all cool and awesome that you can keep all the economics, but if you're unable to generate demand, it doesn't matter if you can, a hundred percent of zero is zero.

Speaker 4: (08:44)
So be it consumer

Anthony Scaramucci: (08:46)
Brand guru that you are, how should consumer brands think about their NFT strategy? It depends.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (08:55)
You are. So let's use, let's use high fashion luxury. I think they, you know, they'll probably be the slowest to this space. Even though LVMH has been very aggressive and done a lot of creative stuff already in general, every single brand has the ability to turn these into tokens that forget about the representing the physical item, which I think will become norm. They're going to be able to create events, access every membership card that you've ever thought of is now going to play on this chain because unlike, uh, all the dynamics off chain, there's royalty components when people trade, you know, when you think about the trillions, think about this for a second. The trillions of dollars that are sold every year in collectability. Silliness is the word I'm using a key chain. Look, look at your backdrop, right? Like everything behind you right now after your original purchase.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (09:51)
When that, if you decided to sell that Superman sign that I saved and you sold it on eBay, DC is not making a royalty on that with the blockchain, they will, there is going to be no reason why anybody on earth is not going to make an NFT, either just stand alone or in compassing to the physical item. Because, because they're creating a tangible asset that they can have economics against as a brand, you need to use it as a token to do a field pass to a football game, right. To, to do a BIP. Didn't let's say Louis Vuitton put out 50 gold tokens lbs and sold them for a million dollars, a million. What they could back end into that. This is front row at every fashion show in the world. This is getting the product 50 new products a year, a month before everybody, they can start layering these dynamics, but then we'll get school is when you buy it. Now you're like, I don't, I'm I'm minimalism. Now I'm done with those kind of things. I'm going to sell it for 1.1 million because only 50 in the world, they're still getting, they're getting another derivative bite at the apple instead of issuing another one. And having somebody cancel, this is going to be a very big deal. That is just one tiny example of it. So

Anthony Scaramucci: (11:10)
May the fifth is of significance to you? Yes. 5, 5, 5, 5, 5

Gary Vaynerchuk: (11:14)
Is my favorite number. Yes. Tell me

Anthony Scaramucci: (11:16)
Why and tell me what you're doing on five, five. I'm launching. So the way it's also my wife's birthday, I just love it. And public service announcements, I've got her a great gift and an even better card, uh, partners, the cake, my assistant, who happens to be John Darcie's wife, perhaps she could have bought that card. I just want to make sure that everybody

Gary Vaynerchuk: (11:37)
Knows it's pairing see like the blockchain. Yes. I'm launching a, an NMT project. There's only been two times in my life that I felt those spidey senses that I felt in early January this year about the NMT thing, one in 95, when I saw the internet for the first time in my life. And instead of opening up 800 liquor and wine shops for my dad, like I was planning on doing, I decided I was going to launch wine library.com. I'd never owned a computer. I wasn't a techie kid, but I knew this thing was going to be how humans interacted. The second time was a combination of seeing Friendster my space. And then YouTube was the final piece. And immediately after I saw YouTube, I started a wine show on YouTube reviewing wine. And I had never thought about being a front facing personality. I was 30 years old running a e-commerce wine business.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (12:29)
I was a businessman. Uh, as soon as I saw the NMT thing, I went to work and I spent the last four months. So I'm putting this project together where I've literally doodled, cause I've been doodling my whole life quietly. Um, you know, and it created a bunch of characters and, uh, and I'm standing up my own intellectual property and created, uh, layers of access underneath. And, uh, I'm pretty excited about it mainly for this reason, mainly for the fact that, um, I am going to learn so much about this whole world, uh, through the execution for me, I knew myself. I use Gary V as an, almost like a investigative anthropologist test kitchen for Gary Vaynerchuk, the actual operator and entrepreneur. So for me, that's, what's the biggest thing, um, about this, this project for me is that by the end of this month, I will have a completely different extra layer of understanding when I'm having a conversation with somebody sitting on a billion dollar IP, or when I want to invest in a platform or, um, some other products.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (13:44)
So launching, you know, this thing called [inaudible] dot com, um, is, you know, culmination of my being 45 years old and affected by transformers and thunder cats and DC comics and wrestling like intellectual property has been an obsession. I, Anthony, I actually launched VaynerMedia 12 years ago with the main intent of building the best marketing arm in the world, and then buying the [inaudible] IP and refurbishing it through my contemporary marketing machine. So this is a little bit the reverse. I didn't see NFT coming 12 years ago. Um, I didn't realize that I was going to be able to create intellectual property. Um, what's unique about my, my project is that every single de-friend 10,255 tokens is actually a ticket to V con yearly conference that I'm going to be putting on over a three-year period. So they're getting a three-year ticket. That means they can come to the first year and then decide, you know, what this conference got so hot. Somebody just offered me $12,000 for the token. I'm going to sell it. They're going to make a profit. If I can create enough demand by on a great project. So building intellectual property, building my ambition for the best tech and business and kind of culture conference and, and really taking a swing at tasting new technology.

Anthony Scaramucci: (15:05)
Well, first of all, I wish you the greatest success and luck with all that. I think you're an amazing entrepreneur. I'm going to switch shift gears for a second and Darcie and I are going to be out there. We're going to be buying at least one or two tokens that are featured. So I want to, I want to be a V the friend,

John Darcie: (15:22)
Thank you. Been following all your doodles on, on Twitter. I wonder where that was headed. And now we

Speaker 4: (15:26)
Know you do, but, but, but

Anthony Scaramucci: (15:28)
Here's the thing I want you to talk to the generation that absolutely loves you. Okay. That is a younger generation that are my children. Uh, you know, Kevin O'Leary Mr. Wonderful. And you okay. Are the two people when people say to me, well, young kids, who do they listen to that are contemporaries of mine. It's you? And O'Leary okay. So one, why is that? Okay, what do they see in Gary V that draws them in and love spending time with you being with you, and then what is your messaging to them about entrepreneurship and how do you get them ignited with the fire and passion that you have gap

Gary Vaynerchuk: (16:11)
I'm obsessed with not talking down to anyone ever until I go into the ground. So I think in general, my intuition, I read a lot of direct messages is there's a level of, you know, I don't think they're entitled or lazy, or I think I know unlimited, entitled, and lazy baby boomers unlimited, entitled, and lazy gen X. And you know, like there's just unlimited. You know, I don't like to like paint those 15 to 30 year olds, the way that a lot of other people want to paint. I have compassion for their circumstances. They've lived literally in the global empire of society during its probably tipping point. Like of course they are taking things for granted that we've got an incredible internet based society where 13 year olds can literally make a hundred thousand dollars selling sports cards on eBay. Like they don't live in the same reality as we did.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (17:08)
So I think one, they appreciate that on the flip side, I hate when they're full of and they talk about like being sad when mommy and daddy are paying for their Uber and their Equinox and their rent and they're complaining. And, and so I, you know, honestly this is perfect. We're, you know, it's my mom's birthday on May 3rd. And I just think that me, the persona, especially that they are attracted to is really just my interpretation of how I was parented, which is incredible optimism. And self-esteem building with 100% accountability and no. And so like mom was able to walk that tight rope in a way that I rarely see, have not overcome, like making me feel like a trillion bucks and right. However, everything I did wrong, it was my fault. Like when my baseball team lost and I struck out in a big spot, countable self-esteem accountable, that's right.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (18:08)
Practice. What I call practical optimism, which is optimism, I think is imperative for success and all the cynics. And like, if you think it's over, it is over. Literally if you think you're and like the, like it's over on the flip side, I think unfortunately for a lot of these under thirties, they lived through the great era of parents creating eighth place trophies. And like they lost, we lost the balance of the conversation with them. Like that looked like this, no, you can't be like my, my little guys, like I'm going to be an NBA player. I'm like, brother, listen to me right now. Daddy you up. He did not give you the genetic prowess to have a prayer in this. You want to be an epic B3 point guard and maybe hit a shot and sneak into the NCAA tournament. And like, like maybe if you play every day and lose your mom, like, you know, I think the generation of parents got a little bit there.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (19:04)
And, and, and I think that I've, I've hit a chord with them on the balance of the two. And what I would say to them is when you act, when you fall in love with accountability and patience, all the anxiety that you're feeling right now changes dramatically. When you think it's your fault or what can I do about it? And you realize that you're 26 years old and you have 80 years to live and you don't. And all the rules of like having shipping it out was based on people dying at 40. You have plenty of time. I'm blown away by the lack of patience. And when you live for outside affirmation by putting entrepreneur on your Instagram, because you think that's cool, you're always gonna use when you're looking for cheering, because if you're looking for cheering and you become addicted to the cheering, and even when he gets success, I think what really works for me is I get a lot of cheering when you don't fall in love with it and you can't hear it, then you can deal with the booing because when you get there, you get booing too. And I think these kids are too susceptible to the booing because they're addicted with the cheering.

Anthony Scaramucci: (20:10)
And what about social media? Yeah, you're a Maverick on social media. You're brilliant at it. Um, I'm sure that you deal with your share of haters on social media. You know, every adolescent does. Uh, certainly my children unfortunately, uh, have to deal with it. Anybody that puts themselves out there and performance art as an example, or, you know, in our industry politics, anything, uh, what do you tell the kids there in terms of dealing with the negativity on social media? Um,

Gary Vaynerchuk: (20:41)
If you live your life based on a stranger's opinion of you, let's, let's really actually break this down. A stranger has decided that it was a good use of their time to go to your page, your world and try to tear you down. Really. I tell all my friends, five years old to 500 years old, the same thing, don't be sad for. You have compassion and empathy for them. Like the thought of me spending one minute on somebody else's life to tear them down. It's only a reflection of your own inner unhappiness. And so for me, I think empathy and accountability, you know, I get some stuff and I'm like, oh, okay, I see that adjectives not hitting. Let me take a step back and maybe change that context a little bit. So you can't be like delusional, right? And you can't be like it's, but, but if somebody is being really nasty and there's a lot of that, cause it's easy to be nasty when you can hide, um, they're in a bad spot, they're hurt that person's hurting and, and you should be grateful that you're not spending your time going on people's accounts and on them.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (21:50)
I'm literally grateful when I see, Hey, I'm grateful that I'm not in that place. That I'm grateful that my life doesn't consist of going to other people and trying to tear them down. I'm on the, I think

Anthony Scaramucci: (21:59)
It's well said, but it's, it's something that we have to help these kids with because, uh, you know, they get the food

Gary Vaynerchuk: (22:04)
The way to hit the way to help them. And this is where parents are losing is we have to build proper. Self-esteem not delusional just saying you're the best when the kid knows you're not only speeds up the problem. [inaudible]

Anthony Scaramucci: (22:18)
Realistic. Self-esteem but also resilient. You know, I tell my kids, if you're having a bad day, you think of me getting fired from the white house. Okay. That's a pretty good daycare. Okay. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, the issue

Gary Vaynerchuk: (22:30)
Is that I'll have this. I have this with my too, like when you're their dad, like I can impact everybody way more than I can impact my team. You know, look at me, look at me. That's my kids with me. Right. A hundred percent.

Anthony Scaramucci: (22:43)
They want to see you, Gary. I bring them to your office for the medication. You don't have any brother, let me turn it over to the great millennial, the new genius star at SkyBridge. Okay. My co-host John Dorsey. Do you have

John Darcie: (22:57)
Hope? I was talking about self-esteem you're actually saying nice things about me, Anthony. This is, this is a good change of pace saying nice

Anthony Scaramucci: (23:03)
Things about you is I got you stuffed in the SkyBridge closet. Now that we're back, this is true. Thankfully good about myself,

John Darcie: (23:09)
The hand trucks and the paper towels that I'm next to. Now that we're back in the office and Anthony has reclaimed his, his beautiful corner office there, but you know, uh, I'll uh, I grew up with a humble beginning. Saw I'll maintain my humility here, but I want to go back to NFTs for a second, Gary, and you, you, you have a complete, you know, business empire, including a sports agency. We were talking before we went live about an athlete that you guys were recording. Uh, your agency, you ultimately finished second in that courtship, but I'm curious about, you know, I think athletes are getting wise to what's going on in the NFT space. So when they think about endorsements, they're not just thinking about, okay, Gatorade's to pay me to endorse their drink or something of a traditional nature. He's also someone like Patrick, my homes sold millions of dollars worth of NFTs. And I think increasingly athletes are paying attention to that space as you're pitching an athlete, or it could be an entertainer and you're talking about NFT strategy. It almost seems like something that an athlete has to pay attention to. Now it has to have an NFT strategy.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (24:08)
The problem is my homes and Gronk hit it. Perfect. They hit that Mo that they hit, right. Look what Cuban sold his company for. And had he waited a year and a half, it would have been a totally different outcome. My homes and Gronk hit that fever pitch, you know, money grab luck of the moment and not luck. I hate to use that term. They strategically moved quickly executed, but you have, I mean, Dame Lillard is a much bigger name in culture than wronger than Gronk. But if you look at what's going on right now, athletes, there's an unlimited amount of athletes that have put out their stuff. I didn't see the Trevor Lawrence, you know, launch, but like the, the, the roses, you know, the blooms are off the roads, right? The roses is off the bloom, like it's over the supply and demand is over.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (24:56)
And so athletes have to look at it, but athletes have a substantial issue. And so to artists, for that matter, people get very confused. Like, yes, they should all have a strategy and they should all do it. Mazeltov. Now, go sell it. If you're, you know, if you're a, uh, very famous wide receiver in football, you're not even in the game of conversation. Have you been looked at athletes followings versus one tick talker that dances, they're just not as famous as they think they are the Lea contracts, the logos, they wear carry a lot of weight. So the answer is yes, they should definitely do that. But my, my big push to all of them is have you actually cared about your audience? Have you built a community or do you think just because I'm a corner back in the league by NFT should sell, because they're, let me give you.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (25:49)
And this is something that both of, you know, very well, it was a very simple game called supply and demand. The amount of supply of NFTs that are going to be in the world in 2022 is going to be unlimited every person, every intellectual property, every in hairy idea, everything. And that only has so much demand against it. And I think people are going to get into some rude awakenings of how much of an audience they actually have, which will then John create a whole new game, which is if you want to be a big boy or a big girl, and you want to not take the bag from the big brand, that's paying you upfront, you better build an actual community. Cause you're going to get humbled real quick. Right.

John Darcie: (26:31)
Do you think, you know, there's, there's froth in the NFT market today. You mentioned about the timing of the HMA Holmes and the bronc drops we're right around the time when things were just going crazy. I mean, NBA, top shots, you alluded to it. You know, those things just very ordinary highlights that were commons were going for significant amounts of money. That market has cooled off. I've been on NBA top shots. And the way I think about it now is just investing in things that you're truly passionate about. Do you think that, that there's going to be less of a shift, uh, or more of a shift away from speculation in the world of NFTs and more passion investing, passion buying, or how do you think that space is going to evolve?

Gary Vaynerchuk: (27:06)
Oh, I think 98% of the projects that come out in 2021 will not be good investments. Like, so I would consider that froth. I mean, I'm not a free guy, but you know, that sounds like crap. And by the way, that might be, I mean, yeah, I think, I think we're in for a rude awakening now. It feels John you're too young for this, but us, the old dogs like me MOOC. We know this when the internet bubble on the market collapsed, right collapsed in April, March, April, 2000, everybody came out and said, see internet fad, blah, blah, blah. And what was really happening was it was the most significant consumer trend of our time. It was just that people rush to making a quick bag. And that's what we're seeing in NFTs. You know? So 90% froth on the flip side, I'll give you one, I own 52 of them.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (27:57)
There's 10,000 of them. I think crypto punks is going to end up being one of the great investments of the alternative modern market. They were the first NMT project on the Ethereum chain, right? ERC 20 tokens that inspired the ERC 7 21 protocol. There's an O genus to them. They're already $65,000. Ethereum's current price as a floor price, right? So they're not inexpensive by any matter, but only 1% of the world, if that is really up to date to how big and how this is going to all play out, you can see how that's going to compound. So I think it's a really interesting time if we're talking MFT, investing in individual tokens from just a collectible standpoint, I think what we spent the majority of this upfront on, and definitely what my project's built on is the token can represent real life stuff in its contract.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (28:47)
And I think that is going to absolutely explode once people calibrate, oh, this isn't a famous person holding up a photo and selling off back an FTE. This is about real life tangible value. Oh, by the way, some of the most thoughtful things will like the next Pokemon will be created originally as an NFT. And then go on to be something very meaningful though. You know, the way every Pokemon was a card game, John and a video game, that's not how IP was built in 1957. It was built through cartoons. It was built through right toys. So like things, things, things evolve. And I think that's a little bit of a recap of where I see this space right now. Yep.

John Darcie: (29:28)
You, you alluded to cryptocurrencies a little bit. You talked about the Ethereum blockchain. Ethereum has been on fire in the light, even in the last couple of weeks, it's up over 50%. Bitcoin is obviously up several hundred percent over the last year or so. Um, and we're investors in Bitcoin through SkyBridge. And I know Anthony and I personally have some Bitcoin holdings. You've talked about how you're more enthusiastic about the NFT side of things. And you are necessarily about the cryptocurrency side of things. Where do you see the cryptocurrency world moving? And you've also touched on the environmental impact and concerns you have around that. So how do you look at cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin, Ethereum and others, as well as the environmental context of that?

Gary Vaynerchuk: (30:07)
My, my enthusiasm comes from my knowledge base. So I don't really have a strong point of view on a cryptocurrency being a better investment asset than an NFT. I understand MFT because of nostalgia, collectability so much more than trading just on currency. And I also know that the utility aspect of being able to use the, the currency in real world is going to be a huge factor. And or, and so I, I like to stay in my lane. So this is not, my statements have not been a, oh, I think NFTs will be a better investment. They may not be even close. I do. I do think NFTs as a whole is the whole thing. Whereas currencies are fragmented just like individual, uh, NFTs are fragmented. So I think as a whole, it's just going to be civilization, right? You're going to have currencies and you're going to have assets and that's how our world lives.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (31:02)
So I think they can play out evenly that way. So to me, the NFT statement is more about, oh, I really understand how people interact with, with, you know, social currency, like human psychology of why they need it, and definitely on the collectible and the rate of value, as far as the environmental, when you, you see a ready to advancements in four minutes in the scheme of things on L to, you know, technology and, and, and proof of stake, and like, it's unbelievable to me how quickly technology moves, right? As people rightfully start bringing up concerns around the environmental aspects at the rim itself is evolving to its entire, you know, adjustment to the need of that much energy. You have unlimited incredibly interesting chains popping up that are, you know, it built in a manner where they're dramatically more eco-friendly. And I actually think some of the biggest companies in the world are going to be affected by this because when the blockchain ecosystem kind of quote unquote cleans up its energy game, cause it is, cause it's getting pointed with that.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (32:12)
You know, Amazon services is an interesting impact, uh, Netflix, like, you know, I think it'll be interesting to see where this actually takes us to other places. It's really easy for a lot of people to say, oh, look at that thing over there. Cause then they're not playing in it. If we're going to, you know, all of a sudden that same person, when you tell them, you know, you're seven hours that you're watching Netflix, you know, a weekend is something to talk about. So it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out from what I can tell and is not my biggest depth of expertise. I've been very impressed with the speed of new chains popping up that are playing on that space. And then at the room itself, getting to L two level two kind of dynamics that are going to be addressing a plus it's core, oh, genus around proof of stake, proof of work, addressing those aspects,

John Darcie: (33:01)
Switch gears a little bit. And we try to ask this question to everybody we've had on, we started this salt talk series early in the pandemic when we realized we weren't going to be able to do our conferences, but we still wanted to have these fun conversations with creators investors, entrepreneurs about what you learned during the pandemic. You know, I think for a lot of people at crystallize in their mind, the move to the digital economy and the digital world that, that crystallize in their mind NFTs or, or work from home and all the implications that has on our society. Uh, what did you learn? What are some of your biggest takeaways, uh, about business, about life, uh, that you've gleaned from this time during the pandemic,

Gary Vaynerchuk: (33:40)
It was less about learning and more about affirming my greatest belief, which is that during times of adversity, people get exposed. And so, and not in a negative way, exposed in all different ways. I think that you saw the acceleration of everybody being their true self. So if you were negative and pessimistic, you know, you became more, um, if you were accountable and were ready, you know, some people saw this, you know, as, from a business standpoint, from a family standpoint, take away the incredible devastating aspects of the serendipity of who got sick and didn't die. Those, those are, that's not a whole different level. You know, that that's a variable that is, is devastating. And should we put in a category on itself, but in the day to day, what you saw was there are certain people that are wartime generals, and there's certain people that are peacetime generals, and I've always believed that.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (34:39)
And you know, I've already had two little moments in my career. Nine 11 was really difficult for me. You know, our business just started, our entire business was wall street in the scheme of things on the wine business front. And there was a lot going on there. And then obviously the 2008 recession, you know, adjust or just starting up VaynerMedia and the wine business. And it was a lot to go through. And this was the third chapter of like not fraught, the exciting, easy everybody's winning. See players look like superstars. And I think this one probably had the biggest toll because it was a mental game, right? People are encapsulated, there was no escapism for a lot of people outside of alcohol and drugs. You know, it was like really, you know, some of that kind of real stuff, John. So I think, you know, for me it was less about learning and it was probably the final nail in the coffin for something that I've always believed, which is things accelerate during times like this. And I watched from afar, forget about me. I observed so many during this time and it became very obvious me on that truth.

John Darcie: (35:39)
Do you think the world is going to go, go back to the way it was pre pandemic? You know, you talked about New York city. You're proud new Yorker

Speaker 4: (35:47)
In a sense. Yeah. It can't

Gary Vaynerchuk: (35:49)
Because it wouldn't be in the same place. If there was no pandemic two years later, that's just not how it works, but something of this size, oh, I think it's a major change. I think people are actually underestimating it. You know why people are very basic in the way they think about this. Is it going to go back? They're like, oh, are we going to travel? Are we going to go to the office? That's like nothing. That's like a tiny, tiny part of this. We have formed an enormous new consumer behaviors. I mean, doing a zoom or hangout, like this feels incredibly normal now for everybody, which means it will happen. Like every one of us is doing one less trip for one meeting and we're going to do it like this because we're going to every one of us has picked up on a new app, a new behavior, a new purchase, a new interest, a new relationship. I mean like, you know, everything, everything has changed because this is a major global event.

Anthony Scaramucci: (36:45)
Now look like will Smith though. Is that something I should be worried about?

Gary Vaynerchuk: (36:49)
You look great. Actually, I'm actually extremely jealous of how you look.

Anthony Scaramucci: (36:52)
No I'm saying that will will Smith and I both the caring that dad bought

Gary Vaynerchuk: (36:56)
Now, listen, I think, I think you look great. I think he looks great too. Um, I really practical.

John Darcie: (37:02)
Self-esteem Gary. Not, not false.

Anthony Scaramucci: (37:05)
You giving me false hope. Gavin. I love you.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (37:07)
Listen, I can't see the rest of your body here. I see the face and the hair. I mean. I wish I had that. That's an Italian chia pet. That hair has been your strength. I didn't, I didn't grow up in the Ukraine that Eastern European it's going to go away real fast. Anthony, come on. I think, uh, I think that, um, I think everything's changed. And what I mean by that is many things will go back, but John people will be doing things that they don't even realize that they've changed on because it's such a change to our behavior.

John Darcie: (37:41)
I want to finish with a final word on V friends. This episode, we're, we're taping it on May 3rd, full transparency. It's airing on May 5th as of 8:00 AM Eastern time this morning. If you're watching this episode V friends we'll be live, how do people engage with that project? How do they buy V friends? What are the mechanics act like? You're talking to a five-year-old or a 65 year old.

Anthony Scaramucci: (38:01)
What if the opening price for V Fran, you think of me friend coin.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (38:05)
So the lowest tier cause there's a lot of different tiers is a three Ethereum, which now is like 9,000 bucks, but is on a Dutch auction. Anthony, I was concerned that I had enough of a big base of people with wealth, that I was worried everyone was going to get shut out. So I went Dutch auction. I kept all the pricing and it actually descends as the time goes down. Um, so it goes from three to 0.5, Ethereum and it's descending curve. They go to be friends.com, John, they connect their wallet. So starting right away, I know 99% are like, what? So this is where you need a wallet, Mehta mask, uh, any wallet that's compatible with, with a wallet connect that this, you know, a lot of people have a Coinbase, but they don't, you know, but they don't have an active wallet to buy NFTs.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (38:54)
And so you'll need one of those. Um, and then once you connect it, you just literally do it just like a credit card. You click the button. Now what scares a lot of people is like, when you pay a little gas fee in and it takes a little bit, people are used to immediate now with credit cards and all that. So people buying their first set of tea are always a little scared. Cause like, did I just w you know, you see it all the time. Even like, technically sound people like, wait a minute. I don't see the money in my account, but I don't see the token. And so there's a little bit of that that goes on with it. But, but you know, what's fun for me is I launched wine library.com in 1995, excuse me, 1986, and actually launched the 97 and built a 96.

Gary Vaynerchuk: (39:29)
People were scared, crapless John, to put a credit card into the computer. They thought it would get stolen and used. And so we're living it all over again with these crypto wallets, non-custodial wallets, us being in control of all those dollars. There's all these new things like 12, 12 word phrases from meta mask. Obviously, top shop decided to go Fiat and build a layer there. And there's a lot of, you'll see a lot of projects that you'll be able to use a credit card. For me, it was important to be very crypto native to this project. I wanted to be an authentic Ethereum project, and I wanted to educate people how to really use ether for execution.

John Darcie: (40:07)
Gary Vaynerchuk is a pleasure to have you on salt talks. Anthony have a final word for dairy before we let him go.

Anthony Scaramucci: (40:12)
I'm one of his huge, his fans, okay? I'm not a millennial. I'm not a kid that just graduated from college, but I'm still a Gary V follower. And I am a huge fan. And I got to tell you, Gary, you're an inspiration of a lot of people. So keep doing what you're doing. And I will be a proud owner of a Gary V V friends. I can't wait to see what you get. Uh, Darcie's going to explain it to me cause he's more tech savvy.

John Darcie: (40:41)
We're going to go shopping on my

Anthony Scaramucci: (40:43)
Credit card numbers. I know that's going to be really bad for me, but the good news is he dresses like. So you can only spend so much just don't give it to your wife Darcie, and I'll be fine, but I will be owning a V card. Uh, today's broadcast May 5th. Before the end of the day, I will be owning a V frame V friend token. I can't wait. And I'll be a proud owner

Gary Vaynerchuk: (41:05)
Of that. Thank you brother. Thank you so much. And I'm going to work really what I did really smart, I think. And we'll see if history proves it out is I created all these off the chain dynamics to create the economy. When that first conference, you know, John, I have the advantage of seeing where these all lay out at knowing what people paid for it and then producing the event in reverse. Right? So I just have to understand what they went in for make sure that I crushed that first conference. And then that gives Anthony the ability after it happens. If he wants to make a little profit, he's been good at this throughout his career. He can transact. He's a trader by heart. So I got to put them in the right position so that I'm going to be a buy in. I'm going to be a hot Hoddle. I love it. All right, man. Thank you. I got to run

John Darcie: (41:51)
And thank you everybody for tuning into today's salt. Talk with the great Gary Vaynerchuk. Just a reminder. If you missed any part of this talk or any of our previous salt talks, you can access them on our website. It's salt.org backslash talks or on our YouTube channel, which is called salt tube. A we're on social media. We're most active on Twitter at salt conference, but we're also on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook. And please spread the word about these salt talks. We always like to start every conversation with the primer so that anyone, no matter how far along they are on their crypto journey or their NFTE journey can learn a little bit about what NFTs are or whatever subject matter we're talking about. They can start from zero and we hopefully did that today. So please spread the word about these salt talks, including this talk with Gary. Uh, but on behalf of Anthony and the entire salt team, this is John Darcie signing off from salt talks for today. We hope to see you back here again soon.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: How to Create Wealth in the Founder Community | SALT Talks #146

"USA is a country of a lot of opportunity, but it requires a lot of unity and mobilization.”

Juliet Scott-Croxford currently serves as CEO for the media brand Worth, responsible for leading its transformation from a print magazine to a content platform that focuses on ‘Worth beyond Wealth.’

Building around a mission that a person’s worth is more than a person’s financial wealth offered a compelling approach for a media company. All media has been in the process of handling the rapid shift from print to digital. This digital advertising space poses a whole new set of challenges. All of the challenges were made even more complicated by the pandemic that eliminated an important live event revenue vertical. “We flipped into more of a mindset of experimentation rather than being paralyzed by it.”

The pandemic necessitated outside-of-the-box thinking that has benefitted the company. This includes building out the Women in Worth audience with a subscription model and finding new ways to connect.

LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE

SPEAKER

Juliet Scott-Croxford.jpeg

Juliet Scott-Croxford

Chief Executive Officer

Worth Media

MODERATOR

Anthony Scaramucci

Founder & Managing Partner

SkyBridge

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

John Darsie: (00:07)
Hello everyone and welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is John Darsie, I'm the Managing Director of SALT, which is a global thought leadership forum and networking platform at the intersection of finance, technology, and public policy. SALT Talks are a digital interview series that we started in 2020 with leading investors, creators, and thinkers. And our goal on these SALT Talks is the same as our goal at our SALT Conference Series which is to provide a window into the mind of subject matter experts as well as provide a platform for big ideas that we think are shaping the future. And we're very excited today to welcome Juliet Scott-Croxford to SALT Talks. Juliet currently serves as the Chief Executive Officer for media brand, Worth, responsible for leading its transformation from print magazine to a content platform that focuses on worth beyond wealth and inspires and informs an affluent, influential and successful community of individuals to be their best selves.

John Darsie: (01:05)
Juliet began her career as a management consultant, learning to code at IBM Consulting Services, before focusing on business strategy and organizational change, working with clients to solve complex business problems across a variety of sectors through the use of technology. Her experience in this area took her to a role at Boxwood, which is now part of KPMG, where she worked as a senior consultant in strategy and business change with a focus on the media and technology sector. After working as a consultant with Guardian News & Media on its print to digital strategy, in 2012 she was confirmed in a permanent role to lead strategy and operations for the Guardian Media Group’s commercial division based in London. Juliet joined the Guardian’s executive committee in 2015 and, as Chief Delivery Officer, was responsible for the strategic implementation of the global three year turnaround plan and subsequent transformation and growth for the Guardian’s US operation, relocating to New York in 2016.

John Darsie: (02:08)
Hosting today's talk is Anthony Scaramucci, the Founder and Managing Partner of Sky Bridge Capital, a global alternative investment firm. Anthony is also the Chairman of SALT, and with that I'll turn it over to Anthony for the interview.

Anthony Scaramucci: (02:21)
Well, thank you John, and Juliet, what an introduction that was, right? That was pretty good. Did your mom write that? Did John read it the way your mom wrote it, because I thought it was a fabulous introduction.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (02:32)
I know. It's a bit long isn't it? Thank you John for doing that.

Anthony Scaramucci: (02:35)
No, I like it. I want people to know...

John Darsie: (02:37)
She's done a lot of stuff, Anthony. She's very decorated.

Anthony Scaramucci: (02:39)
I want people to know how accomplished she is and what a visionary she is, it's a good backdrop for the foundational aspects of the interview. But before we get into the where you are now at Worth and what you're doing what your vision is I want you to talk a little bit more about your past. What can we learn about you Juliet that we wouldn't find on a Wikipedia page or something that John didn't describe to our listeners?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (03:07)
Well, I guess professionally, I had the nickname Velvet Hammer. That was that was one that hasn't been out there before but that was one of my nicknames in my previous company.

Anthony Scaramucci: (03:22)
And this is because you have a wonderful way of smacking people around? Or what is it?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (03:28)
I think it was a good way of graceful change.

Anthony Scaramucci: (03:33)
Graceful change. Yes. It's an elegant way that you...

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (03:37)
Or put it this way. Get shit done but do it in a way that brings people along with you.

Anthony Scaramucci: (03:43)
So you're better at firing people than George Clooney was in that movie where he traveled around the earth firing people. Is that what you're saying?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (03:49)
It wasn't just firing people, it's bringing people along on the journey that you need to take them on.

Anthony Scaramucci: (03:57)
Okay, so I've been fired more than once in my life. Well, one time I got fired from the White House. You may not have known that, I mean, that was sort of a private firing, it wasn't really that substantially publicized. And then I got fired 30 years ago, February 1, 1991, so it'll be my 30th anniversary being fired from Goldman Sachs. I was 27 years old, it was brutal firing. Then ridiculously, I got rehired in the Goldman Sachs, separate story. So go ahead, I want you to fire me, go ahead. Give me the Velvet Hammer, go ahead, I'm sitting here. Let's see if you can do it, let's see if you can do it in a more nice way than John Kelly did when I was in the White House, so go ahead, Hi Juliet.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (04:38)
Hi Anthony, I'm not firing you on on our live broadcast.

Anthony Scaramucci: (04:43)
You're not firing, okay so that's why you're the Velvet Hammer. See that? You're going to for the more subtle approach is that correct?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (04:49)
Yeah exactly. But it's more in reference to I think being able to set a goal and bring people along on that journey and take a business on that journey I think, that that was more the reference to it. But yeah, it's not necessarily firing people. And then another thing that I should mention is in like eight to nine weeks, I'm having a baby, which not many people know about because we're suddenly in this virtual world and unless you say something, you don't know. And we haven't got a name yet so maybe you can help me with that.

Anthony Scaramucci: (05:25)
Well, I mean I guessed appropriately and correctly that you're having a boy so I'm hoping that Anthony is at the top of the list but I mean we could work on that.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (05:36)
Maybe The Mooch.

Anthony Scaramucci: (05:36)
Could you imagine calling The Mooch Scott-Croxford, I know that would really go over.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (05:40)
Bit of a mouthful.

Anthony Scaramucci: (05:40)
Well, exactly that would go over well in the Scott-Crochett. Okay, so let's switch gears abruptly to Worth magazine and congratulations on baby number two, god bless you, and obviously we're here at Sky we're huge fans of yours and your family, we're wishing you nothing but great health and success.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (05:59)
Thank you.

Anthony Scaramucci: (06:00)
But let's talk about Worth because you have this storied career, you have an eye for things, everything that you've touched frankly has been transformed. You joined Worth because you saw something, you've gotten this thing that you've seen in your vision has been interrupted by the pandemic, so you're an entrepreneur. No whining, you're adapting and pivoting. So tell us that narrative, tell us why you joined Worth, what you saw, what you see now, and where are things going?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (06:28)
Yeah, and I think that there was a few things that I saw and the first one obviously being our Chairman and Investor Jim McCann, who you know.

Anthony Scaramucci: (06:37)
Yes.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (06:37)
He is a visionary and has an incredible story, and I know he's been on these talks prior to that so I mean for me, that was clearly an attraction in that you work for people that you think you can learn and develop from. And so Jim was one of those people. Coupled with I think the brand name Worth, that really intrigued me just in terms of what's the meaning and what's the meaning of Worth beyond your financial worth, which I thought was quite relevant in the society that we live in today, just thinking about your social and human and political capital as well as your human capital, as well as your financial capital. And then the other thing is I like a challenge so I think I saw a brand that had potential. I quite like a turnaround project or something that I can kind of see, "Okay, here are the challenges, I've got some kind of understanding of where the media industry is heading and [crosstalk 00:07:45].

Anthony Scaramucci: (07:44)
Not to interrupt but let's discuss the challenges openly because I think many people in media have similar challenges so here are the challenges, what are the challenges, Juliet?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (07:54)
I mean challenge number one was consumers changing their habits when it comes to consumption of media and consumption of reading. So you probably, well, maybe you're a bad example, but a lot of people stopped reading newspapers on a daily basis and they were using their iPhones or their iPads or their mobile devices to consume content. So that was one kind of change that that media industries had to get to grips with. The other was the impact on the advertising industry. So the value of advertising in print was much higher than in digital. Then when you shift to digital there was then a massive introduction of the tech platforms, Google, Facebook, they started hoovering up all the ad dollars so 99 cents in every dollar goes to the big tech platform, so the other media entities are sort of scrambling around for the rest.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (08:52)
And then a lot of media industries particularly legacy ones had a massively high cost base so they were sort of under challenge around their products, they were under challenge around how they were making their revenue and they were also challenged by the size of their cost space which is obviously kind of built up. So anyone going through a transformation had to kind of think about all of those three things I think.

Anthony Scaramucci: (09:14)
Okay, so to some people, some of that stuff frankly is insurmountable. You correctly assess me for being the dinosaur that I actually am so I read everything in hard print and I like to see where the editors put things in the newspapers, I'm always buying the Fred Flintstone newspaper as opposed to looking at it on the tablet. So an insurmountable challenge. I'm sorry, you're going to say something.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (09:38)
I didn't put you in that category because you're a dinosaur, you're a media junkie I think. And so you love consuming content right?

Anthony Scaramucci: (09:48)
Look at the velvetness of this, that's very good. That's like a way of velvetizing something, right?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (09:49)
Yes, exactly.

Anthony Scaramucci: (09:54)
Yeah, that's very well said. And I'll take it as a compliment even though I know that I'm a dinosaur, and I'm also male, pale, and stale which I want to talk to you about in a second but let's go to these challenges. So how do you overcome these challenges? And again, some may see them as insurmountable in the media industry. You don't. Why not?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (10:23)
I think... Look, I love change and I thrive on that. I think a big part of them not being insurmountable is the way you lead and the way you set your culture and approach to change. So I think the media companies that have adapted really well are the ones that have stayed nimble. A lot of them have shrunk, which unfortunately has had impacts. But I think a lot of people have recognized, you could no longer set a three or five or five year financial plan. It's like, "Okay, let's be clear on where we want to get to in the next three years but actually let's break that down and think about what we're going to do quarter by quarter and then the outcomes that we're seeing helping us get to our overarching goal."

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (11:08)
So a lot of it I think was about mindset and mentality and culture and approach to some of these things, which isn't too dissimilar to how an entrepreneur or a startup would approach something where you need to have that mindset of being a bit more scrappy, a bit more bootstrapped, but also the clarity and I think probably the conviction to say ,and the ambition of, "Right, this is what we're going to achieve and this is where we're going to go." But also be prepared to make difficult decisions along the way, which unfortunately is attacking yout cost base as well.

Anthony Scaramucci: (11:41)
Okay, and so you're doing that successfully, you got off to a strong start, then you got hit with the pandemic. And so how have you adapted and pivoted during the time of COVID-19.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (11:56)
Yeah. I mean, it's been really, really tough. Like a lot of businesses, we transitioned from magazine to multi-channel platform, one of our highest growing channels was the live event space. And obviously sort of come February, March last year we had to flip everything we were doing to our digital platform. Thankfully, we had invested and built up a digital platform and we'd seen strong growth in our digital platform, so we like over 130,000 monthly unique visitors which has grown significantly. And we knew that through this time, we still wanted to deepen the engagement and the relationship that we had with our community and grow it. So we were like, "Okay. Well, let's move all of our programming online and then let's really rethink the content that we're publishing so that it connects with the community that we are engaging," and that's what we did.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (12:55)
Some things worked, some things didn't. We're definitely going into this year being a bit more pointed and focused on the things that we want to continue. But we essentially just picked up our live event program and flipped that to our online channel. And then at the same time, launched a couple of new revenue streams so our women and work membership was one, we also done this books deal with a book publisher recognizing that a lot of our community want to publish their work. So we just sort of kind of I would say flipped into more of a mindset of experimentation, rather than be paralyzed by it, and I think that was probably one of the the sort of benefits of navigating through it.

Anthony Scaramucci: (13:41)
And I think the point of everything, and correct me if I'm wrong though, is that the challenges have also presented opportunities for you because you probably are now thinking way more outside your comfort zone and the box, so to speak, than you were prior, right?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (13:58)
Totally.

Anthony Scaramucci: (13:58)
So give us one example where you say. "Okay. Well, I wouldn't have thought of that but for COVID-19 and it is leading me into a very positive revenue area."

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (14:09)
Yeah. I mean, I think the Women in Worth initiative and platform is a great example of that. We had quite an established engaged community already. We were thinking about subscription but it flipped us into a membership model much quicker than we would have done otherwise. It's also afforded us to, I think, connect and build a network with people we wouldn't have necessarily reached before. And you may find the same, I think a lot of people are at home and are available, so being able to reach out to certain speakers and writers has been great. The book piece was interesting because we basically started a book club online which was like, there's a load of people publishing their work but they're not being able to do the touring that they would have been able to do when you launch a book. So we we were like, "Well, we'll create something for you," and out of that came this strategic partnership that we've done with forefront books who distribute through Simon Schuster, to enable people that want to be an author and publish their work to do it on our platform so we can market it for them and they can also get all of the distribution and all of that at the same time. So there's some stuff like that which is like, that wouldn't have come had we been continuing the way we were.

Anthony Scaramucci: (15:26)
Okay. Well, I have a great book that I'm going to be writing and publishing, How to Beat Up on Blonde Millennial Co-hosts, and so I'm going to publish that through you guys, okay? I've been working on the manuscript every day.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (15:38)
I'm going to follow you up with you after this [inaudible 00:15:41].

Anthony Scaramucci: (15:40)
I'll follow up because it's going to be a good revenue source for you and I. I want to go to this statement that you made on a business leaders podcast and you made a point about transitioning Worth from pale, male, and stale. Now there's one thing I can say about Jim McCann, who I've known for 30 years, okay, he is pale, male, and stale, I'm just going to be honest with you, okay? But so am I, okay, so it's like a black pot calling a black kettle, black. So what did you mean by that and how are you increasing diversity engagement in addition to the power forward conference?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (16:17)
So I meant by that the magazine because essentially, the core product was a magazine. And the diversity of our writers and our content and sort of what we stood for, it was quite stale. It didn't necessarily appeal to a cross-section of what I would term a successful influential audience. So one of the sort of early things that I recognized was actually the importance of expanding the breadth of what we cover, but also diversifying our audience. And in order to do that, we established the Women and Worth community, so that was all around how do we activate and accelerate progress for women and minorities, whether it's access to the board, access to capital, access to investment, equity, and pay, equal opportunities. And men are important in that conversation, so that that's the other thing I want to say was this isn't like a men aren't... We need advocates and we need more than allies in this conversation and this is more than it's not just the right thing to do.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (17:40)
We know that it's better for the bottom line, we know diversity greater diversity of thought, greater diversity at the board level drives to better outcomes. So really that is the intention, and then unfortunately the impact on women over the past 12 months and the number of women leaving the workforce has been devastating. So it was really a recognition of, here is a print product, we need to diversify how we're reaching our audience but we also need to diversify our audience at the same time, and the way to do that is through, who is in our team, who is writing our content, and who is speaking on our platform.

Anthony Scaramucci: (18:21)
And that's been successful. I mean, I think it has. I mean, I get your email traffic, I get the availability of your presentations but also the content that you're producing. And so now, let me just fast forward, a little bit of a hypothetical question. We're out of the pandemic and it's a year or two from now and you're setting your goals, where is Worth and what is Worth doing?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (18:49)
I'd like to think... The other thing I just want to add to that male, pale, stale comment is the need for brands, including ourselves, to emulate your target audience. And if we're trying to connect with a successful, socially conscious, affluent audience, actually if you look at the demographic in the US, that's changing significantly. So really, it's a, if you're trying to reach this audience, then you need to emulate that yourself so that's kind of the key thing. Fast forward a few years from now, I mean I think, really we're striving to be a global media, an event and content platform that has an incredibly engaged audience focused on the key topics that we speak to around Worth beyond wealth. And I think there's a lot of opportunity to diversify and build out new franchises. I think the entrepreneur and founder space is very interesting and and really sort of thinking about the wealth transition in this country over the next three, five, 10 years. So that, for me, is exciting.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (20:02)
I think we should explore e-commerce opportunities, I think we should explore physical products as well as content and events. And I also think just kind of thinking about where does the event industry go from here is also another interesting one I think it will move to a hybrid model, I'm not convinced it will go back to where we were. So I think the use of technology with physical and how does that mesh together I think is a very interesting space to be in.

Anthony Scaramucci: (20:37)
You are from the United Kingdom.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (20:41)
Yes.

Anthony Scaramucci: (20:42)
And how long have you lived in the United States?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (20:46)
It will be five years in August.

Anthony Scaramucci: (20:49)
Okay. And so the first... I mean you visited the United States, I'm making assumptions now forgive me. I'm assuming you visited the United States prior to that but that was the first time you became a resident of the US. Is that fair to say?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (21:02)
Yeah. My grandfather was American so I visited a lot as a kid. And then my role at the Guardian I had a global role so I came over to New York a lot on business and then I came over an assignment in August of 2016 and then have lived here ever since.

Anthony Scaramucci: (21:21)
Okay. So I want to ask a question about your observation of the United States over the last five years is what?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (21:36)
It's interesting because I've just lived through the last four years of the Trump Administration. I think it's a it's a country of opportunity but I think it's also a country that requires a lot of unity and I think now is the time to mobilize as a nation and not as separate parties around some real systemic issues. I think that there's a slight identity crisis that the nation has gone through, but I also think it's an incredible country that offers a lot of opportunity, which is one of the reasons why I'm here.

Anthony Scaramucci: (22:24)
Tell me about this identity crisis, if you don't mind. So what is the identity crisis?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (22:31)
I think the interesting thing that we've seen over the past year, take the first week of this year for example and what happened in the Capitol. There was a lot of people that said, "This is not the America we know." And then there's a lot of conversations I was having in the background which is like actually it is, this is the America we know and we have to acknowledge that, and we have to recognize that, and we have to see that in order to get to some of the core systemic issues that still manifest and have built themselves up over many years here, and the racial inequities included, in order to move forward. And I think there are... I mean COVID has obviously demonstrated the wealth disparities in this country. The leadership obviously has been incredibly challenged and so I think there's just like a number of things that have come together in one go that I think for a lot of people are sort of doing quite a lot of soul searching and looking at, "Okay, who are we, what do we stand for, and what should we be going forward?" That's a jumbled response but I just think there's so many things.

Anthony Scaramucci: (23:55)
I think it's well said because I obviously lived here for 57 years, less my half a year in London. I would say that my identity crisis that I see is this is America that's transforming and there's a group of White Americans, if I'm going to be very candid, that don't really like the transformation and have decided that they are going to have this expiation of their discontent with that transformation to be expressed in the ways that they're expressing it. That could either be in social media, that could be in protest movements, that could be in, frankly, an insurrection in the nation's capital. But, by and large, the country is moving towards trying to fix racial inequities that started several hundred years ago, and what you find in a country like this is that, any time that black and brown people are advancing, there's some type of explosion in White America, and so that's just the fact. So I don't know how we're going to put that down over long periods of time but we sort of need to if we're all going to go forward together and see each other as equals.

Anthony Scaramucci: (25:06)
We'll have to see if we can we can do that Juliet, but I'm super thrilled to have you here in the country and uh doing all these great entrepreneurial things that you're doing. And I was just kidding about beating up on blonde millennials because I actually need the blonde millennial for ratings, you know what I mean, so we're not going to write that book that I was just teasing about.

John Darsie: (25:25)
I already already submitted the hr complaint Anthony so you're not going wiggle out of that one.

Anthony Scaramucci: (25:30)
Well Juliet, I'm sure you'll be amused by this and horrified by this but I'll just let you know in front of our SALT Cast viewers that I am the Head of HR at Sky Bridge, okay? I am the head of union capital.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (25:43)
That doesn't surprise me, Anthony. [inaudible 00:25:44] scary.

Anthony Scaramucci: (25:44)
Of course. So if there's a complaint or there's an issue or there's a slight born from political incorrectness, the complaints have to come to me, so look at that already in my inbox from the blonde millennial as a complaint that he was harassed here on the SALT Talk, it's horrifying. But with that, I want to transition over to John Darsie because in order to keep our ratings going, we have to have these young fresh faces and so John you have the floor, okay? I'm sure I missed important things that need to be talked about so I'm going to pass it over to you now.

John Darsie: (26:21)
All right, fantastic, I appreciate it. I'm contractually obligated to get at least one third of the air time on every episode so thank you for meeting my contract Anthony, I appreciate that.

Anthony Scaramucci: (26:30)
He was asking he was asking for two-thirds Juliet, you know how these millennials are, okay? But I pushed back hard. Go ahead Darsie.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (26:39)
And you got the mic.

John Darsie: (26:40)
Absolutely. Well, we love working with you guys at Worth and I know we collaborated a lot on the 2019 SALT Conference and look forward to collaborating on future events once those become possible again, hopefully in the latter part of 2021, we have some announcements coming out on hopefully our event schedule for the second half of the year. Just wanted to start off on that note, and as a thought leadership brand that's in some ways similar to Worth, we've wrestled with the same issues and one question I have for you is, how are you planning... I know you've made a transition you helped with the Guardian's transition to a more digital first operation and you're helping Worth with that transition as well. But how do you continue to stay sort of at the forefront of innovation with platforms like TikTok and other ultra short form content? What we think of as short form now, which might have been Facebook and Instagram, a few years ago, now is condensed into 30 seconds. We had two of the top TikTok personalities on SALT Talks a couple days ago, Josh Richards and Griffin Johnson. How do you continue to stay at the forefront of that and communicate with a younger audience in a way that's native to them?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (27:47)
Yeah, it's a really good question. I think there's a sort of higher order question which is, our partners and brands, how do you create experiences for brands that are valuable in an online world? And then coupled with, where is your community or where is your target audience and how are you going to reach them? We're not currently on TikTok but I would say I think it's a misnomer that it's all Gen Z's actually there's a lot of... I actually think it's an incredibly influential platform and I have a good friend that works there. We are on other social channels and we do really look at the analytics of where our community comes from, how do they find our content, and what do they read, and what do they then click through to?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (28:41)
And it's all of those insights that help inform for us, "Okay, what content do we produce next? Where should we find more of our audience and how do we reach and engage them in a bigger way?" So I think it's difficult if your business model is solely reliant on those platforms. But if they are helping you find your audience then I think you should totally go with it. I mean, I'm just generally interested in tech platforms anyway so I would just sort of be on them and thinking about them in that way.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (29:20)
I think the other interesting thing John is the... What's the notion of social interactions in a digital format? So not just kind of Zoom, but how do you really do business development, how do you really network and build relationships? And there's some interesting new platforms that we've sort of played around with. One is Sophya, which is, the founders have developed this through Harvard innovation Lab. And it's a really interesting platform to go in and it's based on proximity so you walk up to someone in a room or in a virtual bar and then you come on and you start talking to each other and then you move away and they go away and you meet someone else. So I just think that whole 3D world of not only... I think we're all missing face-to-face connections but how do you create those in an online world is quite interesting.

John Darsie: (30:12)
Yeah. I want to continue to talk about that because I'm interested in a lot of the same things, and as event organizers, I think we think about these things on a professional level as well. There's a platform Clubhouse for example that just got another big round of funding from Andreessen Horowitz, which again, they're trying to reimagine social interaction in a digital world, and media in a world where people are craving some level of social interaction without being able to physically meet. Have you studied Clubhouse and what do you make of that model of sort of drop in podcasts and conversations in a topical format?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (30:46)
Yeah. I'm on it and I know a couple of the investors fairly well. I think it's really interesting, I think it's an interesting model. I mean, right now it's audio only, right? So I think it'd be interesting to see where they go on the video side of things. It's very much community driven but it's also kind of I think very much born out of Silicon Valley as well so you kind of get a certain group of people in a certain conversation. But I think it's an interesting innovation and I think the growth of that community is impressive in the last 12 months. I think it's just understanding, I mean, I'm not sure what the revenue model is yet for them because there's no advertising, there's no subscription. I imagine, they'll go down a subscription route I think. But yeah, I mean, I've been on a couple of the conversations. I think for me, it's like that all of these platforms are vying for your time and we're all quite time poor, and I think also there's a huge fatigue as well, right? I mean if you're on Zoom all day and then you're going on Clubhouse in the evening, I mean, I don't necessarily have the time or the energy to do that all day, every day.

John Darsie: (32:06)
Yeah. We felt that. As we explored our sort of virtual event calendar for 2020, we started just thinking about if we were in the shoes of members of our community, what do they have time for and what do they really want? There's so many webinars and virtual events that are out there. So we tried to come up with a list of SALT Talks that really cut to the heart of certain issues and weren't just a a time suck on people. I think it's hard in a digital format to get people to tune into a three-day conference from nine to five, the way they would engage at SALT Conference in the traditional sense in a way. But how do you foster those social connections and interactions? Jim McCann, your chairman, who's spoken on SALT Talks and been to our assault conferences, he talked about how there's just this innate human need for those social interactions and connections and so how do you think, you talked about the hybrid event format sort of taking over post COVID where you have in-person gatherings that are also informed by the digital piece, what do you think those hybrid events will look like in a way that'll be able to engage people that aren't there in person?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (33:18)
I think there'll be a lot more intimacy. I personally can see you know when physical events come back, I can't quite see the massive large conferences in the way that we've had them before, so I think the hybrid is a combination of more internet connections with your sort of most loyal community and people and then overlay that with some of the stuff that we've been doing virtually but also build on it. I think what's interesting is how you swap business cards and really that that bit when you go to a conference and you come back with a stack of business cards and it's like what's the equivalent of that? But I mean, I think people are going to be really hungry for personal connection but I think it's going to take a while to kind of bounce back to the way that it was. And I don't necessarily think it's going to be at the scale that we saw. And I also just think on things like travel, I think we're going to see personal travel and family travel come back much quicker than business travel, personally. I just think we've sort of demonstrated to an extent that we can be productive and do a lot of things at home.

John Darsie: (34:35)
Yeah and you took a whole generation of people... I mean, at Sky Bridge, we did some teleconferencing and video conferencing but it wasn't a core part of our business operations and now you have an entire workforce that's extremely literate on teleconferencing and being able to foster those connections without having to jump on a plane. But we definitely agree that there's huge pent-up demand for that in-person interaction. I think almost there was too many conferences pre-COVID, we started the SALT Conference, Anthony did, I wasn't at Sky Bridge at the time, in 2009, and there was at that time post-crisis there was a dearth of conferences but you've seen just an explosion in events and I think this COVID period sort of cleansed that overpopulation of events and people are going to be sort of wanting to get back in the groove now that we haven't had those interpersonal interactions.

Anthony Scaramucci: (35:22)
If John was around, Juliet, he would have started the Pepper Conference. You see that? Maybe we need to have some SALT and Pepper to make it more diverse.

John Darsie: (35:30)
We need a little spice, Anthony.

Anthony Scaramucci: (35:31)
We're working, maybe we'll have the Cayenne Pepper Conference, you never know. Okay, keep going John. You're doing a good job John, keep going.

John Darsie: (35:37)
Thank you I appreciate it, HR Director. So in terms of the audience for Worth, you guys serve a very affluent audience. I know that traditionally, your core demographic at Worth. What have you noticed about what that demographic of people is looking for today whether it be in terms of lifestyle, whether it be in terms of solutions to meet their financial needs, what has the COVID-19 pandemic done for general preferences and values among ultra high net worth individuals?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (36:08)
Yeah. I think even pre-COVID, we recognized that our audience had a hunger for not only sort of nice things to buy and how to spend their wealth, but it was about the higher order impact they could have on the community and on the world around them and their values. So we'd already... and that sort of reflected in our mission of Worth beyond wealth. So even pre-COVID, we recognize actually we're not trying to just reach a wealthy audience but a wealthy audience that's in tune with how to lead and live a life with purpose and how to use their wealth and success in positive ways and for the greater good. So that was kind of our thesis and then within that, we know that things like health and innovation and well-being and mental health are really important for this audience. Certainly over the last 12 months, we saw a very clear shift around giving strategies and the way that donors and philanthropists thought about giving during this time and I think we saw many philanthropists come together to help their community directly and that realized that sort of expertise resided in their own communities.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (37:47)
And some of the previous things as a foundation or as a philanthropist that they've sort of set their sights on very quickly shifted to meeting the immediate needs and services that arise through the pandemic. So I think there was a definite shift in terms of things like giving and the sort of philanthropic strategies that they would they were taking and also seeing a mindset shift in that in terms of well, is it going to the places that really need it. But then that said, on the flip side, we know luxury and nice things are still important so we also recognize things like how you travel now, it might be how you travel sustainably, and what you buy and things that you have in your home are all still really relevant. So I think we sort of tried to sort of really sort of broaden their content strategy to cover obviously things like wealth creation and business innovation but then impact philanthropy, health and some of these higher order questions as well as well, how do you live your best life and how do you enjoy your best life?

John Darsie: (39:00)
Yeah. It's very well said. The World Economic Forum is calling it the great reset and that's not just in terms of the way we think about investing but also the way we think about our lives in general, so I think it's very well said. Juliet, thanks so much for joining us.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (39:13)
And they're so intertwined, John.

John Darsie: (39:15)
Say it again?

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (39:15)
Sorry, I was just going to say, they're so intertwined as well. There was a day when we used to talk about your business and your personal life and it's just like well that's one thing.

John Darsie: (39:25)
Well, that's definitely out the window now as we try to find a room in our house. I have young kids as well trying to find a room in our house where they're not going to break in during our Zoom sessions. So definitely no separating the two at this point. Anthony had an infamous appearance on, what was it, MSNBC Anthony...

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (39:40)
I saw.

John Darsie: (39:40)
... where his his uh handsome son, James, came in and bashed over the Santa Claus. Anthony, you're muted by the way. He came in and bashed over his Santa Claus.

Anthony Scaramucci: (39:50)
He did that, he muted me. He karate chopped everything.

John Darsie: (39:53)
I saw it.

Anthony Scaramucci: (39:55)
Then he told me I shouldn't be working on a Saturday. He told me to stop working as he was pulling me out of the seat. So what are you going to do? It happens but here's the thing, you have a brilliant vision for your business and you don't need to hear compliments from us but I'm going to just say something to you that I enjoy about your personality is you're willing to embrace change and also the itinerant risks that come with change, and I think that is super important for the young people that listen in on these SALT Talks that if you really want to advance, you've got to take the risk, the rocket has to misfire or explode as it's leaving the launch pad and then you got to go back to the drawing bed and make it better. And I think you've demonstrated that throughout your whole career so I'm really looking forward to the next iteration of Worth and I'm also looking forward to Worth's involvement in SALT.

Anthony Scaramucci: (40:53)
And I'm going to make a suggestion, okay, and I would love to have you host a few of these things and you'll probably have to bring along the sidekick John Darsie but we would love to have you host a few SALT talks and we can come up with a guest curation list that suits you. And perhaps it could be some of these power forward people. Just throwing that out there.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (41:16)
I'd love to. I think it's a great idea. I love working with you guys it's always an absolute pleasure to chat to you both. So I've got a couple of follow-ups now, I've got that and the book.

Anthony Scaramucci: (41:28)
Yeah. I think the book could sell though but by the way, you know what I mean, because there's a lot of hostility for middle-aged men towards Millennials, and I think-

John Darsie: (41:37)
Juliet, we could also use an HR Director if you guys have outsourced HR or anything like that at Worth, we could use that as well.

Anthony Scaramucci: (41:45)
Something to think about, Juliet. See that, these are brand new business lines for Worth Magazine. Thank you so much again for being such a great partner and thank you for joining us on SALT.

Juliet Scott-Croxford: (41:59)
Thank you. Likewise thanks guys, see you soon.

John Darsie: (41:59)
And thank you everyone for joining today's SALT Talk with Juliet Scott-Croxford of Worth. Just a reminder if you missed any part of this episode or any of our previous episodes that you want to watch, you can access our entire archive of SALT Talks at SALT.org/talks/archive and you can sign up to watch all of our upcoming talks live at SALT.org/talks. Please follow us on social media. We're on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter and Facebook and we stream some of these episodes on those social media outlets so if you forget to tune in to our Youtube channel when each episode goes live, you can potentially watch them on those outlets so please follow us there.

John Darsie: (42:38)
Please tell your friends about SALT Talks, we love growing our community. The pandemic has given us a chance to reach an entirely new audience by having a digital series like SALT Talks as we've been gratified by that and look forward to continuing to build our community. And on behalf of the entire SALT team this is John Darsie signing off for today. We'll see you back here again tomorrow on SALT Talks

Griffin Johnson & Josh Richards: TikTok Careers & Investing Interests | SALT Talks #145

“I remember trying to buy Bitcoin in 9th grade… and my parents didn’t let me.”

Josh Richards and Griffin Johnson are two of the biggest influencers on TikTok, a social media network where users share short-form videos, where they have a combined 34+ million followers. Their media and business ventures extend across multiple channels.

Business-minded from a young age, early media success born out of TikTok has opened doors across media and finance. Social media content houses, like the Sway House, are becoming popular and major content hubs for Gen Z. This is launching many careers of young people and showing new ways people can pursue professions outside traditional frameworks. “There are so many other routes than just going to college, 9-to-5 and mortgages… to achieve your dreams.”

Success on social media has opened doors to many other opportunities in business. This led to ventures in angel investing that involves networking and learning lessons from entrepreneurs, founders and executives.

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SPEAKERS

Griffin Johnson.png

Griffin Johnson

TikTok Star

Josh Richards.jpeg

Josh Richards

TikTok Star

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Christopher Hahn: The Aggressive Progressive | SALT Talks #139

“I want to see economic growth that benefits everyone. I do believe the government can step in and help people level that playing field. I don’t think people should go broke because they broke their arm or have a serious illness.”

Christopher Hahn is a progressive pundit and host of the Aggressive Progressive podcast. Hahn served for five years as a senior aide to US Senator Chuck Schumer.

As a regular guest on Fox News for ten years, providing a progressive perspective, Hahn has seen the network’s dramatic shift to the right, particularly from its opinion hosts. The conservative movement more broadly reflects this shift where fringe conspiracies and white supremacist ideology have come to the fore. This is born out of the sense that a shifting demographic represents an existential threat to white-centric culture. This culminated in a terrorist attack of the Capitol by Trump supporters in order to disrupt the election certification. “This was not a protest; this was a terrorist attack by forces that wanted to overthrow the government of the United States of America. They were coming to kill Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer and Mike Pence.”

Since Ronald Reagan, the center of politics in the US has moved right. The most liberal members of the Democratic party like AOC, Bernie Sander and Elizabeth are trying to move that conversation left and create more progressive compromise.

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SPEAKER

Christopher Hahn.jpeg

Christopher Hahn

Host

The Aggressive Progressive Podcast

MODERATOR

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Anthony Scaramucci

Founder & Managing Partner

SkyBridge

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

John Darsie: (00:07)
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is John Darsie. I'm the managing director of SALT, which is a global thought leadership forum at the intersection of finance, technology, and public policy. SALT Talks are a digital interview series with leading investors, creators, and thinkers. Our goal with SALT Talks, like our goal at our SALT Conferences, which we host twice a year, once in the United States and once internationally, is to provide a window into the mind of subject matter experts, as well as provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future. We're very excited today to welcome Christopher Hahn to SALT Talks for a very timely conversation about the state of our nation's political rhetoric in our entire societal situation that we're in right now.

John Darsie: (00:57)
Christopher Hahn is a highly sought-after progressive pundit and the host of the Aggressive Progressive podcast. He hosts a national syndicated radio show and has made over 2500 national television appearances on a variety of political, pop culture, and public policy topics. Christopher's skill in dealing with public policy issues was honed during five years where he served as a senior aide to US Senator Chuck Schumer, who's a Democrat from New York, as most of you know. During that time, his responsibilities included dealing with the post-9/11 homeland security activities, domestic policy, federal environmental matters, and economic development.

John Darsie: (01:37)
As Chief Deputy County Executive for Nassau County, Chris was the senior appointed official under County Executive Tom Suozzi. Chris was primarily responsible for directing and managing the daily administration, communications, and operations of county government. Appointed at the age of 33, Christopher was the youngest person in the history of Nassau County to hold the position of Chief Deputy County Executive. Chris serves on the boards of Stony Brook University, the Regional Plan Association of New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut, and the New York League of Conservation Voters. Chris earned his BA at the University of Albany and his JD from St. John's University School of Law.

John Darsie: (02:20)
Hosting today's talk is Anthony Scaramucci, the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge Capital, a global alternative investment firm. Anthony's also the chairman of SALT, also had a brief stint in politics, not quite as long as Chris's. But, with that, I'll turn it over to Anthony for the interview.

Anthony Scaramucci: (02:37)
You see how he starts it? It's a-

John Darsie: (02:39)
I always have to get it in.

Anthony Scaramucci: (02:40)
... karate chop right in the Adam's apple trying to remind people that I was in Washington for 11 days. But you want to know something, Darsie? Donald Trump right now is less than a Scaramucci away from leaving the White House, unless, of course, he blows up the White House between now and his departure. So, Chris, thanks so much for joining us. You're known as an aggressive progressive. So, first of all, what does that mean to you? What should it mean to others? Then tell us something about yourself that we couldn't find on your Wikipedia page that he just carefully read for 25-

Christopher Hahn: (03:16)
Yes, geez. You read the whole thing off the Wikipedia page.

Anthony Scaramucci: (03:20)
It was very impressive, Darsie. It was impressive.

Christopher Hahn: (03:24)
So aggressive progressive is really ... It's something that bookers would call me. You've got two types of progressives over at Fox News, and that's where I've done the 2500 television appearances. All but maybe 200 of them were at Fox News, and bookers would say there are two types of progressives. There are the kind of wishy-washy progressives that'll just go along to get along. They want to try to be liked by everybody who watches them. Then there are aggressive-

Anthony Scaramucci: (03:56)
So those are sort of like passive progressives, something like that?

Christopher Hahn: (03:57)
Yeah, guys who kind of have Stockholm Syndrome. They're over at Fox News, and they've adopted a more conservative tone. Then there are people like me who aggressively defend the progressive position. So I have been called the most aggressive progressive that has consistently been on Fox. I've been on Fox News since 2010. It's gotten very different over the years. It used to be a lot more fun interacting with the audience members, up until really the last two, three years. I'd always have the same conversation when I'd meet people, "Oh, we love seeing you on TV at Fox. You're so articulate. We don't agree with anything you say, but we love seeing you."

Christopher Hahn: (04:46)
Now, I get a lot of stare-downs. A lot of these conservations think that, oh, he's a progressive. He's a liberal. He's probably weak. Then they see me in public and I'm a little bit more put-together than they might've thought I might be. I did play college football, and I'm an avid runner and a triathlete, and fitness is really the one consistent thing in my life probably my entire life. So it's a big deal. I try to make my points, and I'm passionate about my points that I make, and I don't allow conservatives to lie when I'm sitting next to them, sitting next to them or, more likely lately, in a box on a screen with them.

Anthony Scaramucci: (05:38)
You say that Fox is different from 2010. It's now 2021, and you're saying that the audience may be a little more hostile towards viewpoints. How's Fox itself different?

Christopher Hahn: (05:53)
Well, I think that the opinion hosts are far more extreme in some of the things that they are saying these years, particularly people like Tucker Carlson. I haven't been on Tucker Carlson's show in two years. I used to do Tucker Carlson's show every Friday night for years. From the onset of the show, I did it almost every Friday night. I think that Donald Trump doesn't like me. That's pretty clear. He's tweeted about me. He's talked about me on radio interviews and says I'm one of the reasons why Fox has gone downhill. Tucker took that on and didn't do it, hasn't had me on in a long time. Sean Hannity hasn't had me on since Trump has become president. Sean Hannity was the first show I ever did at Fox. I had done the Internet show at Fox once, and then the Hannity bookers called me to do Hannity the next day, and I was off to the races over at Fox News.

Christopher Hahn: (06:58)
I had a friend who was running for State Senate who wanted me to run her State Senate campaign, and I had settled into a job at a law firm, and I wasn't interested in doing campaigns anymore. She had been doing some Fox News, and I said to her, "I'd love to do some TV." I had done a TV show in the '90s out here called Youth and Politics, and then when I actually went to work for Chuck Schumer and then later Tom Suozzi, I had given all that up, and I wanted to get back in. She said, "Well, you know what? They've got an Internet show at Fox News, and if you do that for a couple of months, the producers will see you, and they'll put you on the regular show." I literally got a phone call while I was on the Internet show the first time because I guess I have a good acting background and I think that's probably-

Anthony Scaramucci: (07:48)
Well, you grew up on Long ... I mean, you got a good acting, right? You grew up in Long Island. We've all got good acting backgrounds.

Christopher Hahn: (07:52)
Yes. Well-

Anthony Scaramucci: (07:53)
That's Hannity, that's O'Reilly, that's me, that's you. We're all [inaudible 00:07:59]. John Darsie is a Long Island transplant now from North Carolina, so he's all uppity about everything, you know?

Christopher Hahn: (08:05)
Yep.

Anthony Scaramucci: (08:06)
So let me ask you this, though. Again, I have a lot of friends at Fox. You know I hosted a show for the Fox Business channel for two years. I was a Fox News contributor and Fox Business contributor, knew Roger Ailes, and I have a lot of respect for many, many people at Fox. But it does seem like they've shifted the bell curve of conservatism where now it's bordering on extremism. Am I wrong in saying that, and if I am, push me back a little and help me.

Christopher Hahn: (08:41)
I think that's all conservatism. The entire conservative movement, Republican movement, has shifted to this wacko, conspiracy theory, base-driven method here. I'm looking for words.

Anthony Scaramucci: (08:59)
Okay. Let me test something on you and you react to it. When you look at the rage that took place at the Capitol last Wednesday, it was mostly white people. I didn't see a lot of brown and Black people in that, but maybe there were. I just didn't see them from the pictures, so who knows? My worry is that that conservative movement is an aging white demographic that is buying catheters and MyPillows from Fox News. Am I wrong about that? What say you?

Christopher Hahn: (09:31)
No, I think that the conservative movement is not just an aging white movement. I think it's a borderline white supremacist movement, frankly, that sees any change or shift in their power as an existential threat. A lot of that's laziness, right? A lot of these people don't want to compete with a broader market of people. They like to say that I'm a socialist, but they want to hold onto to their easy lifestyle and they don't want to see more Black and brown and gay and other people competing in their market and have a level playing field. That is unacceptable to them, and you see ... Oh, and Charles Blow-

Anthony Scaramucci: (10:09)
So this is a last gasp of white-

Christopher Hahn: (10:14)
What'd you say?

Anthony Scaramucci: (10:15)
I'm just saying this is a last gasp of white people. Their demographic is shrinking, and they're getting angry about it. So they figure that they can't really run it as much as they used to, and they don't want to cede power, so they're becoming anarchists.

Christopher Hahn: (10:30)
I think that this is very much similar. Charles Blow can say it a lot better than I did. I don't know if you read his column yesterday, and then he did a video on this. He compared the red hats to the red shirts of the Post-Reconstruction Era in Mississippi. Mississippi was a majority Black state, and the only way whites were going to maintain control was through violence. People are comparing what happened on Wednesday of last week to a protest over the summer that might've gotten violent. No, this was not a protest. This was a terrorist attack by forces that wanted to overthrow the government of the United States of America. In that building-

Anthony Scaramucci: (11:15)
Well, they were coming to kill Nancy Pelosi. They had zip ties, pipe bombs.

Christopher Hahn: (11:19)
They were going to kill Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, and Mike Pence. There's no doubt. There were people with zip ties. There were people in body armor. The only people they've arrested are the jokers who were taking pictures of themselves that think this is all a joke, but there were people in full military fatigues who looked to be moving as a unit in that crowd. I'm sorry. These nine days cannot go fast enough for me. I am not going to go back to playing this game. I am shocked that even after that, seven United States senators, six United States senators, still objected to the electoral vote, and 140 members of the House of Representatives. I'm sorry. The members from the states that objected to their own states' votes, they should be expelled immediately. It's nonsense.

Anthony Scaramucci: (12:17)
Steve Schmidt, who you and I both know, others from The Lincoln Project, others that are sort of center-right people that are not Trump extremists, are calling for a very aggressive approach to these extremists and saying that we need to snuff this out, that it's sort of 1924, and that they'll double down on this sort of stuff if we don't do that. What's your reaction to that?

Christopher Hahn: (12:46)
I agree. I think we need to charge these people with sedition. I think that the president of the United States should not be immune from charges. If I'm Lisa Murkowski and Mitt Romney and Pat Toomey, I'd go to Mitch McConnell tomorrow and say, "You expel Hawley and Cruz and the others that joined them from our conference or I'm walking across the aisle." This should not be the time ... The Republicans brought this on by placating Donald Trump for the past four years, really, for the past five years. A lot of people, myself sometimes included, said, "Oh, he's a clown." You know what? They said the same thing about Adolf Hitler, and I don't like comparing people to Adolf Hitler, and right now the comparison is not there. But you know what? In 1924, the comparison wasn't there yet either. If this movement is not stopped, if that would've been successful last week, there is no doubt in my mind that I would not be living in this country today. I would be on my way out of here. I have been named.

Anthony Scaramucci: (13:52)
So let's talk about ... Success would've been the-

Christopher Hahn: (13:52)
I've been named by that president, and I've got-

Anthony Scaramucci: (13:55)
Success would've been the assassination of Senator Schumer, Speaker Pelosi, Vice President Pence.

Christopher Hahn: (14:01)
Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci: (14:02)
How do you think the vice president feels today? It's a week after the insurrection. He's got to go back and work for his boss, who basically was inciting that situation.

Christopher Hahn: (14:14)
Yeah. The fact that the president has not called Mike Pence since the insurrection that the president inspired speaks all ... It's all you need to hear. The president on Wednesday had crowds chanting, "Kill Mike Pence," or, "Hang Mike Pence," outside of the Capitol where Mike Pence was. Mike Pence should've gone back to his office, and he should've written a letter to the rest of the cabinet and invoked the 25th Amendment that day. I don't understand why [crosstalk 00:14:46]-

Anthony Scaramucci: (14:46)
So why do you think he didn't do that? Let me push back for a second. Mike Pence's staff would say that there's a week or so to go, let's see if we can run the clock out with causing further mania. They would say if they invoke 25th Amendment and remove him prior to the inauguration, it could cause more violence. Again, I'm in your camp. I want the president arrested. I've said that publicly on Twitter. I think his acts of sedition and traitorism are-

Christopher Hahn: (15:19)
And by the way, thanks for the retweets, Anthony, because my following is a lot of crazies, and whenever you retweet, I get some additional people.

Anthony Scaramucci: (15:26)
You get some additional crazies? Well, I lost some crazies. Twitter took a lot of crazies off of my following, and thank God that they did.

John Darsie: (15:36)
You actually didn't lose that many, Anthony, and it's a sign that the crazies unfollowed you a long time ago because you were [crosstalk 00:15:42]-

Anthony Scaramucci: (15:41)
Yeah. Well, I lost three or 4000. I didn't lose 40,000 like Sarah Huckabee Sanders, but I lost three or 4000. I'm not worried about my Twitter following. I'm worried about the health of the country.

Christopher Hahn: (15:55)
Me, too.

Anthony Scaramucci: (15:56)
I'm worried about police officers that are dying in the face of an insurrection. I'm worried about the collaboration that these insurrectionists could've had from inside the government or inside the Capitol Police. I'm worried about Josh Hawley and Senator Cruz, who are smart guys, Chris. They know better than to be doing what they're doing. I'm worried about all of this political expediency. The reason why I wanted to bring you on SALT Talks is that you've been at the center of our political system for several decades. You've been in a trench. You're a trench warrior. You've seen differences. You've seen people reconcile differences. You've seen people create compromise that actually sort of hate each other. What would you do here? Let's say that you were the czar and you could wave a wand that could help heal the nation. What are some of the steps that you would want to see happen?

Christopher Hahn: (16:53)
Well, you got to start with justice, Anthony. I saw that there was a letter written to Joe Biden by some of the people who objected to his election saying, "Oh, let's call for unity. Let's let bygones be bygones." No, we're past that. We need justice. There needs to be accountability and justice and a full airing of what actually happened and all those who were involved. There should be resignations from people who spurred it on, and that includes Cruz and Hawley, who definitely, as you suggested, knew better.

Christopher Hahn: (17:32)
Josh Hawley likes to pretend he's this man of the people. He went to Stanford and Yale and then taught at St. Paul's in London. He is one of the brightest minds in the Senate, and he absolutely knows better. Frankly, that he knows better and allowed this to happen holds him more responsible. I mean, I want to see Marsha Blackburn and Rick Scott and the others who objected after the violence expelled from the Senate. I know that people say, "Well, that's going to cause more divisions." I don't know how much more divided we could be in this country than we are right now. We've got people literally willing to commit violence, and I don't believe that this was the end of anything. This could've been the beginning of something.

Christopher Hahn: (18:18)
So the government has to be a government of people who are willing to face reality and people who know reality, like Cruz and Hawley, I could almost let some of them go. I don't think Tommy Tuberville lives in reality, right? But Tommy Tuberville was a football coach at Alabama. He didn't teach at St. Paul's in London. Maybe I could give him a little bit of a pass. But when guys that are Harvard and Yale and St. Paul's are edging people like that on, they got to go. They have got to go. The good Republicans, and I believe there are some good Republicans still, need to call on the bad Republicans to go or they need to cross the aisle and then allow for a more stricter, a more comprehensive policy to be placed into effect because this can't stand anymore.

Anthony Scaramucci: (19:14)
Well, and, again, we're in agreement. It seems like I've lost my party. I don't know where to go with my center-right positions on business and regulation and the promotion of economic growth and agnosticism to the social liberties in our society. I feel like our society, people should be able to live and do as they want with their own bodies and they should certainly have any choice that they want related to their sexual preferences. But I'm a sort of center-right person on business and growth, and I would like to see a restoration of capitalism but, obviously, fairness for people as well.

Christopher Hahn: (19:53)
I think I'm a center-right on business issues. I want to see economic growth that benefits everyone, and I want to see everyone have the opportunity for that growth. I do believe that government can step in and should step in and help people level that playing field. I think in the richest country in the world we shouldn't be allowing people to starve, we shouldn't be allowing people to go bankrupt because they break their arm or have a serious illness. But I do want to see opportunities for growth and economic success in this country. So I think there's a perfect place for you in the Democratic Party, Anthony. It's a big tent, and there are a lot of pro-growth Democrats. They used to call them Clinton Democrats or T-L-C Democrats.

Anthony Scaramucci: (20:44)
It's just one of these things where you're hoping that you can provide some restorative help to the Republican Party and it doesn't go completely off the rails because if it does, it'll lead to further psychosis or-

Christopher Hahn: (20:59)
I think that they're off the rails.

Anthony Scaramucci: (21:01)
... further trauma for the world. But it is [crosstalk 00:21:03]-

Christopher Hahn: (21:03)
I don't think they're coming back. I talked to a bunch of people from The Lincoln Project, some of them with your help and your introduction, which I really appreciated. A lot of them are never going back, right? Rick Wilson told me in no uncertain times, "I'm never going back."

Anthony Scaramucci: (21:19)
No, Steve Schmidt, Rick, yeah, all those-

Christopher Hahn: (21:21)
Steve Schmidt.

Anthony Scaramucci: (21:22)
... guys have left, no question.

Christopher Hahn: (21:23)
Yeah, they're not going back because there's nothing to go back-

Anthony Scaramucci: (21:27)
Steve's registered as a Democrat.

Christopher Hahn: (21:29)
There's nothing to go back to. It is the new Know Nothing Party. It is not a party that wants to believe in facts. When I first started working in the US Senate in 1999 or 2000 with Chuck Schumer, we had differences with Republicans, but it was differences on how to govern and how government should be involved in solving different problems, and we would work it out. We didn't disagree on reality. We all believed, "Here's the problem," and we had different ways of solving the problem. By the way, that was a healthy debate, which is what the founders wanted. The founders did not want to have a government that moved too fast. That's why it created the system that it did. That's why it's been so stable and economically successful for the past 240 years. But what we have right now is we have one party that lives in reality, the Democratic Party, and we have one party that does not, the Republican Party. That's not sustainable.

Anthony Scaramucci: (22:24)
Let me push back again a little bit because there is a fringe to the Democratic Party that is I'm not going to say the radical left, but it's definitely way lefter-leaning than I would think mainstream America is. So when I'm getting lit up and I'm getting my hate mail and I'm getting people telling me they're going to come kill me and all the stupid stuff that's happened to me over the last year, one of the thing's that's laced in there is, "Well, you're now a socialist. You're running with the socialists." So what do you say about the configuration of the Democratic Party today, and is there anything about your party that you're worried about?

Christopher Hahn: (23:04)
I mean, even the furthest left person in the Democratic Party lives in reality, right? I always like to say I get called a socialist 10 or 15 times a day by people who I am much better at capitalism than, right? People who have jobs in the government or who are living on a pension, who are receiving Social Security, Medicaid, or Medicare are calling me a socialist. Look, when I was 29 years old, I had all sorts of ideas of how to change the world. People like AOC, who's just turned 30 and hasn't been beaten down by Washington yet, she should be pushing for everything she can because, quite frankly, the center in this country since Reagan has moved right. It has not moved left, and the only way to get it to move back left is to start further left so that when you make your compromise, which is what these people are all willing to do, by the way ... They're all willing to compromise. Just because they start on the far left doesn't mean they're not willing to compromise somewhere in the middle. The problem is the middle is to the right right now.

Christopher Hahn: (24:19)
So AOC and Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren and others, they are trying to start the conversation further to the left. As somebody's who's negotiated a lot of things in my lifetime, I can see where that is helpful. You would never start your negotiation with where you want to finish it, and, unfortunately, right-wing media says, "Oh, look where they are, they're insisting on this or that or the other thing," and then it gets echoed, and then that's the Republican Party position. The Democrats, for all the talk of the liberal media, do not have a single media personality that can drive the entire public opinion of the entire party, including elected officials, like Republicans have. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, they get on a drumbeat of a certain issue, and the entire Republican Party, the entire conservative movement, is right there with them.

Anthony Scaramucci: (25:13)
So I've got to introduce John Darsie to the conversation because we have to get our ratings up. Apparently, he's getting a lot of fan mail that he's a new budding television and all those sorts of-

Christopher Hahn: (25:24)
You've got great hair.

John Darsie: (25:25)
Thank you.

Anthony Scaramucci: (25:25)
Yeah, so I'm going to introduce him in a second, but I want to ask you one last question before-

Christopher Hahn: (25:29)
Go ahead.

Anthony Scaramucci: (25:30)
... John comes in and tries to outshine me in all that Millennial sharp elbows and everything that he's capable of.

Christopher Hahn: (25:37)
True Gen X'ers, man. We're fading.

Anthony Scaramucci: (25:40)
Yeah, it's hard on me, to be candid, Chris. But Donald Trump has been permanently suspended from Twitter, his Facebook. Apple, Google have removed Parler from their app stores. I think a company called Stripe has taken the payment protocol away from his electioneering at this time. What is your reaction to all that, and is that an appropriate thing to do, an inappropriate thing to do? I was on a show with Piers Morgan in London. He said, "Well, what about the Ayatollah? The Ayatollah still has his Twitter account up." By the way, and I'm going to editorialize here for a second, I think it was totally appropriate because they are mounting another potential insurrection.

Christopher Hahn: (26:29)
Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci: (26:30)
But I'm interested in your reaction and where do you think we'll be post Donald Trump and what will Donald Trump be doing?

Christopher Hahn: (26:36)
Well, he's going to have a lot harder time doing it without Twitter, right? Parler is no Twitter, and it never will be. Now that they're taking it off the app store, it's going to be very hard for people to get on Parler. You're going to have to really be dedicated. The First Amendment does not apply to private actors. A lot of people are saying, "Oh, he's violating" ... No. He can go to the White House press room. You know that place. You worked there for 11 days. He could go down there and make a statement to the entire world right now if he wanted to. The problem is that media people will scrutinize it and it won't go out unedited.

Christopher Hahn: (27:11)
So I think it's very appropriate. He's been lying to people. That has incited violence. There is a police officer dead because of what the president has been saying for the last nine weeks, okay, more than that. Prior to election, he said it was going to be rigged, and then after the election, he's been saying it was rigged. Even in his statement conceding the election, he said it was rigged. This man is beyond-

Anthony Scaramucci: (27:36)
Well, yeah, it's his lies that have led to this level of violence. There's no question.

Christopher Hahn: (27:39)
Absolutely. He is directly responsible and should be held accountable.

Anthony Scaramucci: (27:43)
What did the Fox News pundits say about that? They agree with him that the election was rigged? Even though Fox is putting these intercessional infomercials, lacing them into their punditry, that there was no fraud, the pundits think that or are they doing that to make money or what are they doing it for?

Christopher Hahn: (28:03)
I don't know. The main conservative I still go on is Laura Ingram. She has said that the election's over. I don't watch the show too much. I think their main grievance is the institution of vote by mail and how that is maybe a violation of their state laws and it should've been tried, along those lines, whatever. It all needs to stop. People need to say, "Congratulations, Joe Biden, you're president of the United States on January 20th at 12:01 PM." This constant whining, grievance culture, I don't know how anybody lives in it. I don't know how anybody lives in it. They always about Democrats and liberals being snowflakes and whiny, but Donald Trump's entire campaign was, "Look what they're doing to me," even as president. I get it when you're running for president. You can be a grievance candidate. But he was the government for the last four years. He was responsible for everything, and he lost 13 million jobs. It's crazy.

Anthony Scaramucci: (29:17)
Okay, I'm turning it over to John Darsie. Go easy on Chris, okay? He's a nice guy. He's a fellow Long Islander.

Christopher Hahn: (29:26)
I don't like scaring Millennials either, John. I know I tend to do that.

John Darsie: (29:31)
I know. We can be a little bit aggressive and progressive the way you are, so fighting fire with fire here. But I'm going to press you a little bit on the censorship issue, and I'm not going to editorialize. I just want to ask you the question, frankly, because I think it's a very complex issue, the idea of de-platforming people, de-platforming apps, and big tech working with government to basically arbitrate on what's allowed to be said and what's not. Glenn Greenwald, who's controversial in some quarters but he's definitely a contrarian commentator, he's among the leading voices that say that this event at the capital is basically going to be liberals' 9/11, where they're going to use it as pretense to continue to strip civil liberties away from people under the guise of public safety. Are you worried at all about the creep of authoritarianism when you have big tech and big government working together to determine who has a voice and who doesn't?

Christopher Hahn: (30:28)
No, and Glenn Greenwald's an idiot, okay? He's an idiot. I'm not going to mince words. He's an idiot. What authoritarianism was what happened on Wednesday. They were trying to install Donald Trump as an unelected king in this country. Glenn Greenwald is a monarchist, and I am not worried. First of all, if the government was telling Twitter and Facebook what to do, that would be a problem. I would have a problem with that because that would be a violation of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. Twitter and Facebook did it on their own because Donald Trump, for the past five years, has been violating Twitter and Facebook's user policies, and he's gotten away with it because he's newsworthy. Because he's the president of the United States, they give him a newsworthy exception.

Christopher Hahn: (31:21)
Now that that newsworthy exception has actually caused somebody to die, they are concerned about future liability of continuing to platform Donald Trump, so they don't want to be associated with Donald Trump anymore. You can make an argument that the vending platform Stripe, which processes the president's campaign contributions, de-platforming him could have some First Amendment impact because Buckley v. Valeo has equated spending of money with speech in the Supreme Court and that's a very long-term precedent of the United States Supreme Court. But Glenn Greenwald should probably read those things again. Maybe he's forgotten them. But he is not right. He's incorrect, and quite frankly-

John Darsie: (32:14)
What are you-

Christopher Hahn: (32:15)
... I am a civil libertarian in a lot of ways, and I would never ... The government should never be allowed to infringe on people's free speech, no matter how disgusting it may be. What's going on right now is not the government infringing on speech. It is platforms who have rules saying, "You're going to follow our rules or you're off," and they are also concerned about their long-term financial liability for what's being said on those platforms now that they know what they've caused.

John Darsie: (32:49)
Related to that, do you have a strong view on Section 230? I find it kind of funny that a lot of conservatives seem to think that by repealing Section 230, it would actually create more freedom of speech on social media outlets, whereas the provision actually prevents these outlets from being held liable for speech that's made on that platforms. So if you actually stripped it, it would force these social media outlets to censor a lot more speech. But do you have a strong view on that issue?

Christopher Hahn: (33:19)
I think that the president sees a little mark next to his name so he pushes for Section 230 to be repealed. I don't have a strong view on it. But I also think that one of the reasons why they're pulling people off their platform is liability because, even though they have some protection for it, once you knowingly allow this stuff going on, it becomes a reckless standard here, I think. It's been a while since I've actually practiced law, so forgive me. But I did go to St. John's, where they actually teach you the law, not Harvard, where they teach you the theory of the law. So it's a-

John Darsie: (33:56)
I don't know. Anthony passed the bar on his third attempt.

Anthony Scaramucci: (33:59)
Yeah, he's taking a shot at me because [crosstalk 00:34:00]-

John Darsie: (34:00)
Anthony passed the bar on his third attempt.

Christopher Hahn: (34:01)
It's one of the very few things St. John's grads can have.

Anthony Scaramucci: (34:05)
A Long Island St. John's is taking a shot at me. John's going to mention the fact that I blew up on the bar exam a few times. I was out water skiing in Manhasset Bay. I didn't realize you had all these arcane things. But I did pass it. I eventually passed it. Keep going, Darsie. Go ahead.

Christopher Hahn: (34:21)
I passed it, and I'll tell you-

Anthony Scaramucci: (34:22)
Are you going to mention I got fired again?

Christopher Hahn: (34:23)
... a quick bar story. I was so worried about failing the bar. I buried myself in studying for the bar. Two weeks before the bar exam, two things happened. I had a girlfriend that I stopped seeing as I was just studying the bar, and I told my mother, "If anybody dies, just don't call me until after the bar." So the bar ends, I finish the bar, I'm in the city. My girlfriend lived in Manhattan. She was a ballet dancer. I call her up, I go, "I'm going to come over. I'm going to come over. I just finished taking the bar exam." She's like, "Christopher, we broke up three weeks ago. You were on a phone call. I told you you're too intense with the studying, I've got to go, and you just said, 'Uh-huh (affirmative), uh-huh (affirmative).'" So I didn't even realize I'd broken up with her. Sorry.

John Darsie: (35:18)
At least you were buried in your studies. I'll give you credit for that.

Christopher Hahn: (35:20)
I think she was originally from Manhasset, too, by the way, either Manhasset or Roslyn, something like that.

Anthony Scaramucci: (35:25)
It just means she had good judgment if she was from Manhasset, okay? [crosstalk 00:35:28]-

Christopher Hahn: (35:28)
One of those North Shore wealthy communities.

Anthony Scaramucci: (35:31)
Yeah, we're very smug.

Christopher Hahn: (35:32)
Lived on 33rd and Third.

Anthony Scaramucci: (35:33)
We're very smug and very self-important up here on the North Shore.

Christopher Hahn: (35:37)
Yes.

John Darsie: (35:37)
I want to switch gears a little bit with my line of questioning here. In Georgia today, we have two Democratic senators after the run-offs. We have a Black pastor and a 33-year-old Jewish progressive Democrat. It just goes to show you how much the electoral map and the makeup of each of these parties in the electorate has shifted in the last five to 10 years. It's been a slow trend in Georgia, but you're seeing other places really evolve, some becoming more blue, some becoming more red. How do you think the electoral balance of power is going to continue to evolve and shift around the country?

Christopher Hahn: (36:15)
Well, I'm very concerned about gerrymandering now that the Democrats failed to take back state houses in this past cycle. I think that that's the biggest problem is this country because you wind up having ... You want to talk about extremism on both sides, you wind up having people who are only concerned about winning their primaries and never have to really face a broad section of voters because they're going to win their seat based on their party affiliation if they survive a primary. So that's my main concern. I do think that presidentially Georgia now being firmly in play, first of all, congratulations, Stacey Abrams, because it was her work that made that all possible. The reason why Texas didn't similarly turn is because they didn't have a Stacey Abrams. I think Beto O'Rourke is a great candidate, but he's not the organizer that Stacey is, and I think that we've got to find that Stacey Abrams in Texas and in North Carolina and Florida to turn those states at least purple.

John Darsie: (37:27)
You also saw Hispanic voters in Texas and in Florida and elsewhere turn toward the Republican party more than they had in 2016.

Christopher Hahn: (37:36)
They sure did.

John Darsie: (37:37)
The Republicans got a much larger share of the vote.

Christopher Hahn: (37:38)
They sure did. You only need to look at Miami-Dade County to understand the story of Florida. Hillary Clinton won it with 68% of the vote and Joe Biden won it with 54. That's a huge shift in one of the largest counties in the state.

John Darsie: (37:52)
Why did that happen? Is it sloganeering? Is it defund the police?

Christopher Hahn: (37:55)
I think that there was a lot of lies being said about socialism and communism, particularly in Spanish language media, that was not countered by the Biden campaign well enough. You can't allow a lie to linger. You got to get on it immediately because it'll travel fast and it'll set in and it'll become gospel. They lied about them. How could anybody think ... I've known Joe Biden since I worked in the Senate. I started working in the Senate in 2000. I met him then. He is as middle of the road as they come. How can anybody think that Joe Biden is a socialist, a communist? It's ridiculous.

John Darsie: (38:45)
Yeah. In a lot of ways, he's the perfect president for the moment. He obviously has his issues. He's older, he's maybe a little slowing down from what he used to be when he was in his 40s or 50s. The fact that he is a consensus builder might be a godsend for us as we enter this precarious period of our history.

Christopher Hahn: (39:04)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

John Darsie: (39:04)
One more question for you. You're a New Yorker. New York and California in particular, I think, have suffered disproportionately during the pandemic because I think they, first of all, have the largest economies, but you've also seen New York City and San Francisco undergo sort of a decay over the last several years economically and socially, as you see increasing homelessness and the livability of those cities has gone downhill. You see a big movement or a lot of noise at least being made about people moving to Texas and Florida. What do you think locally Democratic leaders in heavily Democratic states and localities need to do to make sure that they reverse these trends and remain competitive from a business perspective, so these cities remain livable and exciting places to be?

Christopher Hahn: (39:52)
Well, actually, I think that this current crisis in New York City is going to lead to a renaissance in New York City. Hopefully, we get a mayor that has some vision and can lead. But housing has gotten out of reach in New York City for Millennials like you and artists and other people that led to the boom of New York City in the '90s and into the 2000s and up until, really, a year ago when it crashed because of COVID. I think that now that we have an opportunity to see housing costs come down and maybe even more stock be made available because there's going to be less need for all of this commercial office space, I think you're going to see more young people moving into Manhattan and Brooklyn and you're going to see that artist community come back and that creative class really take back over New York City.

Christopher Hahn: (40:48)
Cities are the future in this country. I know that COVID has people thinking, "Well, that's not going to be the case." I don't believe that at all. I believe that what was making cities slow down was the fact that Anthony could afford to live there but I can't. It's one of those things that now it's going to be more affordable, more easy. I actually-

Anthony Scaramucci: (41:11)
We're looking at his Architectural Digest living room, but that's fine. Okay. He's one of these limousine-

Christopher Hahn: (41:17)
I'm doing okay. I probably could afford to live there.

Anthony Scaramucci: (41:20)
I mean, he's one of these limousine liberals, okay? But I want to let you shoot it out with Darsie.

Christopher Hahn: (41:23)
I actually said ... My wife-

Anthony Scaramucci: (41:24)
Okay, I can see the Architectural Digest photography behind you-

Christopher Hahn: (41:29)
My wife and I were having-

Anthony Scaramucci: (41:29)
... but you can't afford living in New York.

Christopher Hahn: (41:32)
My wife and I were having this conversation. I actually really wanted to move to Manhattan before COVID. I was really like, "Let's move to Manhattan. It's good for my career." I love Manhattan. I love being in Manhattan. It's a good thing we didn't.

John Darsie: (41:50)
Well, if you're still interested, you might get a better price on that apartment that you were looking for.

Christopher Hahn: (41:55)
I think so. There's going to be a lot of opportunity in Manhattan the next couple of years, and I think it's going to lead to a lot more creativity in Manhattan, and creativity breeds industry. It's not just going to be artists. It's going to be engineers. It's going to be people who want to design things and build things and create things. You're going to see new uses for these buildings that used to host ... I don't think you're going to need 300,000 square feet for a law firm anymore. You're going to need less because people are working remote and they like it.

John Darsie: (42:23)
Absolutely. Well, Christopher Hahn, thank you so much for joining us on SALT Talks. It's the Aggressive Progressive podcast. Please, everybody go out there, subscribe, listen to Chris's podcast. It's a fantastic podcast. I listened to a lot of episodes as soon as you came on my radar via Anthony, and it's a great show. Anthony, you have any final words for Chris before we let him go?

Anthony Scaramucci: (42:42)
No. Chris, I wish there were more people like you and Robert Wolf and others where we could just bring the country together, calm down the outside tension, but, unfortunately, what I'm learning and what's something I don't like, and I know you don't like it as well, is the idea that there are people who are using movements and radicalization for their own personal ambition and for their own personal political attempt at power. I'm talking to you, Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley, specifically.

Christopher Hahn: (43:20)
And some of these groups, like CPAC and others. It's just a grift.

Anthony Scaramucci: (43:25)
Really dangerous stuff. I appreciate you coming on. We're going to have you back. We're going to need some of your insight on what the Biden administration looks like in six to 12 months.

Christopher Hahn: (43:34)
It's going to be a great thing, and I really appreciate it. Anthony, you know-

Anthony Scaramucci: (43:38)
If you're nice to me, before I put my hair up on eBay, I may let you borrow it one night [crosstalk 00:43:43]-

Christopher Hahn: (43:43)
I want to borrow it, man. If I had your hair, I'd rule the world, man.

Anthony Scaramucci: (43:44)
But you can't bring it into Manhattan. You can only use it out here on Long Island.

Christopher Hahn: (43:47)
But I want to say one nice thing about you because I saw that you were mixing it up with somebody on Twitter over the weekend and he was calling it out for the role you played in Trump's rise, which you owned it. You owned the mistake, and you've done everything you can the past couple of years now to take that back and inform people who don't want to listen to me that this was a bad thing. This is a bad guy. There's got to be a point in time where people, they've made their amends, they've admitted wrong. You never tried to say, "Oh, no, I wasn't wrong." You said, "I was wrong for supporting this guy."

Anthony Scaramucci: (44:34)
No, I owned it, but this is the problem with liberalism, let me just tell you straight up. You have a lot of self-righteous, very sanctimonious people, holier than thou, and they don't want to hear it, so they have a litmus test.

Christopher Hahn: (44:47)
I don't think it's that.

Anthony Scaramucci: (44:48)
I'm telling those people, you've got 74 million people that just voted for Donald Trump, we have to get them back into the fold of the United States of America.

Christopher Hahn: (44:58)
I wish I could blame it on ideology, but I think it comes back to everybody wants to go viral all the time, everybody wants to be relevant, and as people start to fade from relevance, they pick fights, they get more radicalized, they do whatever they got to do to maintain that relevance. I know at some point nobody's [crosstalk 00:45:21]-

Anthony Scaramucci: (45:21)
Darsie's thinking of Rudy as you're saying that. See, that's why Darsie's smiling. Darsie's thinking of Rudy.

Christopher Hahn: (45:24)
Yeah. I had that battle with Rudy Guiliani, and it made me sad more than anything else because the guy used to be great, and he's not anymore. He's a laughing stock. He's pathetic.

Anthony Scaramucci: (45:41)
Makes me sad. I had a very good close, long-term personal relationship with him, and as Anthony Carbonetti, who you know and others, we would all say the same thing, John Avlon. We want to remember Rudy the way he was '93 to '97 as opposed to the way he is here in 2021.

Christopher Hahn: (46:02)
Yeah, you want to remember him on 9/11.

Anthony Scaramucci: (46:04)
On 9/11 as well. Yeah, those were [crosstalk 00:46:06]-

Christopher Hahn: (46:05)
I know. I used to see him at the Yankee games, and I would talk to him and have great conversations with him. Then the last five years, he started bringing up insanity at the Yankee games, not even on TV.

Anthony Scaramucci: (46:22)
Well, I'm going to mic drop you because this is my show, okay? This is a Met city now. Cut his mic, Darsie, cut his mic.

Christopher Hahn: (46:31)
There's no Mets city. I know you're an owner of the Mets, and I hope to one day go to a game with you because my wife-

Anthony Scaramucci: (46:37)
Oh, yeah.

Christopher Hahn: (46:37)
I'm in a mixed marriage.

Anthony Scaramucci: (46:37)
No, I sold my estate to Steve Cohen. But, yes, you'll be in my-

Christopher Hahn: (46:42)
I'm in a mixed marriage because my wife's-

Anthony Scaramucci: (46:43)
You'll be in my suite as soon as we can get the stadium open, as soon as we get [inaudible 00:46:46].

Christopher Hahn: (46:47)
I got to bring my wife because she's the Met fan here. I'm in a mixed marriage.

Anthony Scaramucci: (46:50)
All right. Hey, man, we may leave you in the car now that I know that.

Christopher Hahn: (46:53)
There you go.

Anthony Scaramucci: (46:54)
All right. Well, god bless, Chris. Thanks to you for coming on.

Christopher Hahn: (46:56)
God bless you, too, and thanks for having me, and I look forward to seeing it. You guys are great. Keep up the good work.

John Darsie: (47:02)
Thanks again to Christopher Hahn for joining us on SALT Talks, and thank you for tuning into SALT Talks. Just a reminder, you can sign up for all of our future talks at salt.org/talks and access our entire archive of SALT Talks at salt.org/talks/archive. Please follow us on social media. SALT is on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn. Please tell your friends about SALT Talk because we love growing our community. We were able to use technology and the Internet in 2020 at a time when we had to cancel our conferences to grow our community digitally, and it's been a lot of fun to have these virtual conversations with people like Christopher Hahn and guests across finance, tech, and public policy. On behalf of the entire SALT team, this is John Darsie signing off for today from SALT Talks. We'll see you back here again tomorrow.

Oliver Stone: Surviving Hollywood | SALT Talks #135

“I’m old enough to have seen 70 years of mismanagement since WWII. I’ve seen the Pentagon and the intelligence agencies lie us into every war we’ve been in.”

Oliver Stone is an Academy Award-winning writer and director known for iconic films such as Scarface, Platoon and Wall Street. Stone recently released his memoir, Chasing the Light, detailing his life and career through the release of Platoon in 1987.

While attending Yale, Stone became disillusioned by the elitism on display from his classmates that included future President George W. Bush. That disillusionment and frustration permeated his understanding of the US government’s deceptive tendencies. Stone served a particularly violent and destructive deployment in Vietnam where he was confronted with the atrocities of war perpetuated by a dishonest US government. These experiences influenced the many iconic movies he’s made over his career. “Something was wrong with our system. I just didn’t know what it was; I didn’t know what to do; I just wanted to get out of it.”

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SPEAKER

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Oliver Stone

Screenwriter

MODERATOR

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Anthony Scaramucci

Founder & Managing Partner

SkyBridge

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

John Darsie: (00:07)
Hello everyone, and welcome back to SALT Talks, my name is John Darsie, I'm the managing director of SALT, which is a global thought leadership forum and networking platform at the intersection of finance, technology, and public policy and media, as well as entertainment. SALT Talks are a digital interview series that we started during this work from home period, with leading investors, creators, and thinkers. And what we're trying to do on these SALT Talks is replicate the experience that we provide at our global conferences, the SALT Conference, which is to provide a window into the mind of subject matter experts, as well as provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future.

John Darsie: (00:47)
And we're very excited today to welcome Oliver Stone to SALT Talks, Academy Award winning Oliver Stone has written and directed over 20 full length feature films, among them some of the most influential and iconic films of the last several decades. Some have been at deep odds with conventional myth, films such as Platoon, the first of three Vietnam films, Born on the Fourth of July, JFK, Natural Born Killers, and Nixon. Oliver Stone's films have reached far and wide, international audiences, and have had significant cultural impact. These include Salvador, a deeply critical view of the US government's involvement in Central America. Wall Street, an expose of America's new capitalism. World Trade Center, a story of two of only 20 9/11 survivors. The Doors, a poetic look at the 1960's and Jim Morrison's ecstatic music. And finally, Snowden, a story about the international acclaim of the recent American whistleblower who is now potentially going to get a pardon from President Trump in his remaining days in office.

John Darsie: (01:57)
Stone's other films include Any Given Sunday, an unconventional view of the world of American sports. An epic historical drama, Alexander, as well as Alexander: The Ultimate Cut. W, a satirical view of former US president George W. Bush. And finally, Wall Street 2: Money Never Sleeps, a realistic sequel about the 2008 financial crash and Gordon Gekko's fate after prison. And that movie actually features our cohost today on SALT Talks, Anthony Scaramucci.

John Darsie: (02:26)
Stone was born September 15th, 1946 in New York City. He served in the US Army infantry in Vietnam in 1967 and 1968, and was decorated with the Bronze Star for valor. After returning from Vietnam, he completed his undergraduate studies at New York University's Film School in 1971. His path to success as a writer was not a direct path, as we talk about a lot here on SALT Talks. He worked as a taxi driver, a Merchant Marine, an advertising salesman, and a production assistant before becoming synonymous with everything we think about the movie game, as he calls it.

John Darsie: (03:04)
And hosting today's interview is Anthony Scaramucci, the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge Capital, a global alternative investment firm. Anthony is also the chairman of SALT, and as I mentioned, had his acting debut, I believe, in Wall Street: Money Never Sleeps. But with that I'll turn it over to Anthony for the interview.

Anthony Scaramucci: (03:20)
So yeah, Darsie, you keep rubbing it in, okay? Because you needed Krazy Glue for your eyelid to see me in the movie. And of course, I obviously didn't do that well, because Oliver never invited me back for another rendition of one of his great movies. But-

Oliver Stone: (03:36)
Oh he wasn't... I'm sorry Anthony, you were terrific, and I had reluctantly to leave some of it on the editing room floor because the picture was long. I had to cut Donald Trump in order to save your spot.

Anthony Scaramucci: (03:49)
Oh, well I appreciate you doing that. I remember Trump in the barber shop and you didn't like the thing, and you blue lit the movie.

Oliver Stone: (03:56)
I liked it. No, that's not true.

Anthony Scaramucci: (03:56)
Oh.

Oliver Stone: (03:58)
Don't start a myth here. I liked him in the picture, it worked, the scene worked, but it was not at the right time, I should've done it earlier in the film. In fact, I'd like to recut it and put him back in, I think he's good.

Anthony Scaramucci: (04:11)
All right, well there you go. All right, so you wrote a great book, you know I'm not that self promotional Oliver, right? You know he wouldn't consider me self promotional, look at that. I'm holding up the book. Look how handsome you were back in the day. How old were you in this picture Oliver?

Oliver Stone: (04:28)
I was 21 going on... No, I was 22. I was on my last mission in Vietnam, it was right before I left in November of '68, it was about sometime in October. It was the very end. Came out of 11 days in the rain, we were stuck on a mountain, and it was pretty hairy for a while. And I was very relieved to get out of there. Very relieved.

Anthony Scaramucci: (04:51)
You wrote beautifully in this book, I'm recommending this book as a great holiday gift. My son, who's an aspiring director and a videographer in the music industry, I just wrapped this book for him and made it a Christmas present. But you start the book in such a beautiful way, you tell such a touching story about your parents. It's very, very real. It's typical of your movies, it's raw, it's emotional, and it's honest. And so bring our listeners and viewers into the early part of your life and describe your parents for us and a little bit about how you started your career arc.

Oliver Stone: (05:30)
Well my parents were crucial to my life, like everybody's parents are, but they were not destined, really, to be a couple. My father was just a military man, a lieutenant colonel in Paris, and in Berlin after the liberation of Paris. And he was on Eisenhower's financial staff. And a Wall Street man all his life. My mother was a French... Her parents were hotel people in Paris, but she came from Savoie, and she was a very healthy, French, vigorous, young 19 year old girl. And she fell for this man... She had a fiancee, but she fell for this man with his uniform and his medals, and all that, and the Americans were pretty powerful then, and had a lot of money. France was broke and in trouble.

Oliver Stone: (06:24)
She broke off her engagement with a Frenchman, and she married him very, kind of abruptly. And I was... She was made pregnant in France and she came back to America on a GI ship, I don't know how much detail you want, but there was 20,000 GI guys on the boat, she was the only female on the boat, and it was a rough voyage. I was there too, and I remember being rocked incessantly by the North Atlantic in that January winter, it was terrible. And I was born in New York City in September of '46, right after the war had ended and the whole Frenchman was picking up again, and it was quite an interesting time. I lived through a lot of that in the '50s, '60s, and they finally broke apart in the '60s, and it was rather climactic, and I describe it in detail in the book, because I was away in boarding school, but I was the only child. And of course, it impacted me greatly because I didn't know it was coming.

Oliver Stone: (07:23)
And they didn't tell me anything. There was no forewarning, you see. And that's what makes it, I think, very dramatic. To find out all these things about your parents afterward, in hindsight, and it's quite shocking, some of the details.

Anthony Scaramucci: (07:35)
Well, it's very tender. And you also write about the fact that other divorced children go through similar things. It's a breakup, and a destruction of the family, and you describe the three of you as becoming three separate entities as opposed to a glued together family, which has its own level of trauma. But you speak very lovingly about both of your parents, and you've got accepted to your dad's alma mater, Yale. But you have other things in mind, and you're thinking about going to war. And tell us the thought process back there, to the young Oliver Stone making those decisions.

Oliver Stone: (08:15)
Well, I grew up, like most American children in the '50s, with a healthy dose of violence on television and in movies, especially movies. I loved them, I watched TV shows, cowboys, westerns, detective shows, all kinds of violence were evident. And in a way it was sort of a healthy violence. It was sold to us as a redemptive violence that everybody had the right to get back at their enemy. And I grew up with that idea, that we had the, almost a Christian right to violence. Which is a strange idea when you think about it, but that was the American way.

Oliver Stone: (08:55)
So when I grew up and as I was coming of age, the Vietnam war was beginning to happen. And the concept of going to war was romantic to me, I have to say. So school was not working out, I was deeply troubled by the divorce, many things were troubling me, and I guess in present day terms, you'd say I had some form of... I should've seen a psychiatrist, but that was not very popular back then in the '60s, early '60s. I ended up dropping out of Yale and teaching in Vietnam for two semesters. I ended up in Saigon alone, and it was quite an experience. And then I ended up going to the Merchant Marine, I joined the Merchant Marine as a wiper, and sailed around Asia, and I also came back to the United States on a ship. Quite a story.

Oliver Stone: (09:50)
But I didn't go into it here. The point was that when I got home I went back to the school, Yale, couldn't make it, I couldn't... See, it was a different... I think you know something about this Anthony, you went to Tufts. No that's... Well, Tufts is a good school. But I'm saying there was a sort of an elitism at Yale that I just could not stand. There was a certain class of people. George Bush was in my class, just to give you an example. That was a C student, a C student and proud of it, and generally ignorant, and fraternity bound. He ended up, as you know, avoiding Vietnam with his father's influence he got appointed to the National Guard, and I think it was in Alabama, and whatever the story is. It's a pretty dirty one, he never really served, and he didn't care about it. He did a lousy job at avoiding the draft.

Oliver Stone: (10:46)
And it came out in the press, and a lot of people got into trouble, [Dan Radley 00:10:49] got fired. But that's another story. But that's the kind of people that I did not like to be around, and they were running the country. They became the ruling class of this country, whether it's Bill Clinton or Obama. They all went to Ivy League colleges. Something was wrong with our system, I just didn't know what it was, I didn't know what to do, I just wanted to get out of it. I wrote a book too, but the book was turned down. The book became... later was published as A Child's Night Dream in 1997 by St. Martin's, and it's quite a sensitive book. Written by a 19 year old boy.

Oliver Stone: (11:25)
Anyway, I ended up in Vietnam, and I thought it was the best thing for me because I just wanted to get away from any kind of privilege, any kind of elitism. And I wanted to go at the bottom level, and I started out as a private, and I went to... I asked for infantry and I got it. I asked for Vietnam, I didn't want to be sent to Korea or Germany. And I ended up in the field after six months of training in September of '67. I was 21 years old, my birthday, when I flew over on an airplane, on the 21st birthday. As you know, the international time zone, you drop a day. And that was my 21st birthday, that day. I was shot twice, I was wounded twice. Shrapnel and shot. And both times... That was early in my tour, the first three, four months. And I got better as a soldier, but it was a very rough beginning, and they put me out on point right away.

Oliver Stone: (12:25)
A lot of that is in Platoon, I hope you get to see it again, it's a powerful vision of what it was like to be in Vietnam. I think it's the most realistic ground version of that war. [crosstalk 00:12:39].

Anthony Scaramucci: (12:38)
Yeah, no listen, I've seen the movie three or four times, I love the movie. I actually also watched the movie a few years ago with your over the top narration of the movie, which I found very compelling, that was part of the bonus features of a CD back in the day.

Oliver Stone: (12:53)
Oh the... Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci: (12:55)
And-

Oliver Stone: (12:55)
With the commentary you do it, yeah. I don't remember that.

Anthony Scaramucci: (12:58)
Yeah, you were on a microphone explaining the different scenes and shots that you took. There's one scene in that movie I was always dying to ask you about, I'm going to ask you now. There's a scene with Willem Dafoe and Charlie Sheen, and he's a fresh guy, he's a newbie in the Platoon, and he grabs them, and he takes his backpack, and he starts taking out of his backpack things that he thinks are irrelevant to him. And it's this sort of veteran trying to help out the younger guy. And I've always wanted to ask this, was that true to your life? Did someone do that for you with your backpack when you got to Vietnam?

Oliver Stone: (13:30)
Oh, very much so, yeah. I was over packed. Although we were trained, and we went over there, when you get actually get there in the jungle, you still have a lot to learn. A lot. And I was obviously over packed, and it's so hard, when you're cutting point for eight, nine hours a day, or six hours a day with a machete, you can't carry that kind of weight.

Anthony Scaramucci: (13:57)
What would you say, now, reflecting, what impact did the experience of the Vietnam have on your world view?

Oliver Stone: (14:06)
Aw, gee, you're talking about a huge impact. I would say Vietnam was... I didn't realize it then Anthony. I went to a... I was trying to survive and trying to integrate and be a good soldier, which I did become. And I eventually, as you know, I got a Bronze Star because I was able to take care of myself and take care of other people too. I was about 13 months, I was most in the field for about 11 of those months. The three things I wrote about... I didn't realize it until later, this is... I'm writing it from the hindsight of an older man now, looking back. There are three big lies about Vietnam that bothered me. Big lies.

Oliver Stone: (14:46)
One was the amount of people killed by friendly fire. That's always glossed over and unreported by the Pentagon. It's not something they're... it's attractive idea because the Pentagon doesn't want parents to believe their child was killed by friendly fire. But that happens a lot, especially in a jungle, asymmetrical war situation where you don't see the enemy easily, and you don't see your own men, because you're firing across lines, you're firing over your own men sometimes, throwing grenades. And then there's artillery coming in, sometimes misdirected. Airplanes dropping bombs, sometimes misdirected. Napalm too. I estimate, and I honestly did, in the book, I say 20% of the people killed and wounded there were friendly fire. That's a pretty big number when you add it up. A lot of people would be really upset. That has never come out. Never come out.

Oliver Stone: (15:45)
Then I talk about the lie of killing civilians, villagers. A lot of our operations were crossing into villages. Sometimes we were in a jungle, sometimes we were on the coast. And this was when I was in the first calvary division up north. We went into a lot of villages, trashed them looking for supplies, looking for weapons. And sometimes we'd find them, sometimes not. But it was just chaos, and there was a lot of abuse that went on. I'm not saying it was consistent, I'm not saying it was a Mỹ Lai situation, but it was bordering on it. There was a lot of antagonism against the Vietnamese. It was a lot of racism in a lot of the troops. Not all. A lot of the... And I dealt with that in the scenes in platoon where you see some of the people very racist. And of course, you see a lot of people who are not.

Oliver Stone: (16:40)
But there was a distrust of the Vietnamese skin, the race, as well as... See, we never knew who the enemy were, we were not sure. Sometimes they wouldn't show up for a while, they'd just be booby traps, ambushes, people would get hurt. And frustration, and you take it out on the villagers whom sometimes acted dumb, sometimes looked like collaborators. Mỹ Lai was very much that situation. They had not seen a lot of the enemy for months, and a lot of them had been hurt, and when they got there that day they really took a vengeance on them, they killed 500 people. And you know what, I mean, I almost made a movie on it, it was almost happened, but it was canceled at the last second. It was more than 500 civilians killed in that particular village. More in the other villages.

Oliver Stone: (17:30)
But, not one bullet, not one enemy bullet was fired at the US. That was established by the Army itself in a commission that they investigated the massacre. Not one enemy ability. Okay, that's my second lie. The third lie is the biggest lie of all, that we're winning this war. This was a lie that was there from the beginning, this was the origins of the war. They lied about that in Washington. Pentagon Papers prove that. Consistently lied about the enemy, the number of enemy dead, how well we were doing, that we were winning the war. This constant refrain in the newspapers, in the military, in the brass, in the Pentagon. Went around and around for years until one day it just was clear after the Tet Offensive, after three years of war, January '68, that it wasn't true. That there was more North Vietnamese than we ever dreamed, and that they were succeeding. And they continued to succeed despite taking a heavy casualty count, because they were fighting for their independence of their land. That means all of Vietnam, not North, South Vietnam, Vietnam.

Oliver Stone: (18:39)
And they were a formidable enemy, they were very smart, very smart. Used very little... They took everything they could get from us that they stole or they had various networks through our... We sold a lot of weapons to them by accident too. We gave weapons to the South Vietnamese and a lot of times the South Vietnamese soldiers would give weapons to the North Vietnamese. It was a mess. But that lie was that we're winning, that was never true. And it backfired. And we retreated, as you know, we pulled out. Peace with honor. Nixon sold us the peace with honor. This was a new president, came in after four more years of conflict, and more people dying.

Oliver Stone: (19:24)
Several... We don't know... Robert McNamara, the Secretary of Defense, estimated up to three to four million Vietnamese were killed in that war. And that means mostly civilians.

Anthony Scaramucci: (19:36)
Well, and it also created an arc of further catastrophe in the American government, the onslaught of Watergate. The precursor to that war, however, was the... Not the precursor, because we were already active in Vietnam, but perhaps an accelerant to that war was the assassination of John F. Kennedy in November on 1963. One night at dinner, you and I had dinner together, you told me that you felt that JFK, the movie, was your opus. I don't know if you still feel that way, or if you do, why do you feel that way? Why was that your opus? And tell us a little bit about your experience making that movie.

Oliver Stone: (20:18)
These are tough stuff you're asking me. JFK was my most ambitious movie ever, I knew it when I was making it, I knew that I was going into a new arena. And I pissed off a lot of people. A lot. I, in some ways you could say my career was never the same afterward. The film was well done, I thought. It was impactful, it was taking a three and a half hour movie and making it exciting. I mean, it was about tension. It was a murder story, a thriller, who did it? And there's no clear answer, but it's pretty clear to me that it was significant people who had power behind the scenes, power to make things happen in Dealey Plaza that day.

Oliver Stone: (21:00)
And we went into a lot of the reasons for it, Kennedy was changing things, this is a historical point of importance. Kennedy was a big change from Eisenhower and Truman, a new policy for the United States. He understood the third world. Kennedy was against the Algerian War, he was in Indochina in the '50s. He really... His speeches, everything indicates a strong anticolonial mentality, because he was Irish, he understood what the English had done to Ireland. So there was a lot of rebellion in Kennedy. But he was a smart man, and young man, and he was going up against an older, at the time, the '60s, the older people controlled everything. They were the establishment.

Oliver Stone: (21:46)
And you had to be pretty smart to change things, as you know from government, it's very hard to get anything done. And he was biding his time. He said, "Look, they want to go into Vietnam, but I am not going to send combat troops." And he never did. He never broke that. His desire was clearly stated before he died, right up to the last year of his life. We are pulling out of Vietnam, we are not going to go on with this, we're going to maybe give them money, but we're not going to fight their war for them, this is not for us.

Oliver Stone: (22:16)
That directive, the beginning of that was the withdrawal of the first advisors, 1,000 advisors were coming out. And then he knew he couldn't sell it then, but if he got reelected in '64, which he most assuredly would have, because he was very popular, if he had been reelected that's when he would've made the big move and the bigger changes would've come. And believe me, his enemies knew that. They knew what he was up to in Cuba, they knew what he was up to in Africa, what he was up to in Indonesia and Vietnam. And they would never allow him to do that because not only was he a danger to their whole system of doing things since WWII, his brother, Robert, attorney general, was a powerful young man. He was a likely successor in '68 to Kennedy. And of course, there was the younger brother Teddy Kennedy.

Oliver Stone: (23:06)
But what they feared was this change in the world. America would become a more cooperative member of the world, would not seek to impose a colonial policy that was inherited from France and from England. And that's, I believe, those are the reasons he was killed in November of '63.

Anthony Scaramucci: (23:31)
Listen, I've also seen that movie several times, and of course we have a lot of Wall Streeters that watch the SALT Talks, you've been to the SALT Conference a few years back and-

Oliver Stone: (23:42)
Oh, yeah, right.

Anthony Scaramucci: (23:43)
... you came to the SALT Conference. Tell us about your two Wall Street movies. My first question is, will there be a third? Will there be a trilogy of Wall Street movies? And tell us about the two that you did, and tell us about the impact that they've had on your life. And how do you think that they reflect what goes on in financial services?

Oliver Stone: (24:03)
No, the Wall Street movies, I think this is it, because in 1987 my father had just died, and I wanted, because of the success of Platoon and Salvador, I wanted to do a movie honoring what he said about business to me, which was something like what you said in your book. He said, "Look, people always make business movies, they make fun of businessmen, they're not positive figures. But actually, Wall Street is the engine," he said, "the engine of the American economy." At that point in time, in the '50s, '30s, '40s, Wall Street was very much the leader in the sense of a source for funding for these companies to do research and development and capitalize for bigger and bigger jobs, whether it be GE type electronics or...

Oliver Stone: (24:54)
Father was a big believer in American business, and he said, "The only way to defeat despair is through work and prosperity." And it was a good message, and I believe in that message. He was totally against, obviously, Roosevelt. He made a... Boy, boy, did he take off on Roosevelt. But that came with the time, and I understand why he did that. But I since them have come more to the Roosevelt point of view. Gordon Gekko was the type of Wall Street operator that my father would've hated. He was slick, younger, financial, looking for money, looking for the financial side of things but not caring about what the company really did and how productive it could be.

Oliver Stone: (25:41)
When he takes over the airline in Wall Street, because of Charlie Sheen's inside knowledge, Charlie is the son of the union head of the airlines company employees, Martin Sheen plays his father. When the son takes that information, betrays his father, gives the information to Douglas, it sets up a clever chain of events where Douglas, among other many deeds buys the company, buys more and more stock in the company until he has a controlling position, at which point he cannibalizes the company. You know more about that, but he breaks off the assets, he sells the divisions, and [crosstalk 00:26:20]-

Anthony Scaramucci: (26:20)
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Very '80s thing to do. Yep.

Oliver Stone: (26:21)
It's very what?

Anthony Scaramucci: (26:22)
It was a very '80s thing to do, actually. And so you captured it beautifully.

Oliver Stone: (26:26)
And it was done by [Cravis 00:26:28] and these people in the '80s. It was quite a bunch of them that came by. And their argument was, "We're good. We're good for business because business has to evolve. These companies are archaic, they're old fashioned, they have boards of directors that do nothing, and here we can do... we have to make them modern." Well, that's true, but you have to run the company first, and you have to administer it, which is what Gekko didn't do, he was more interested in if he could make a quick buck by selling assets of the company, which has been done 100 times now.

Oliver Stone: (27:00)
The economy of the United States has changed so... And the result of that has been, in 2008, I think, the crash. What they call the Big Bang, I don't know what you call it these days. What I saw in 2008, this is... I thought when I did Wall Street, which was very successful against all the odds, nobody expected that to be successful, it was one of the first business movies that really did well and got an Academy Award for Michael Douglas. I thought the Wall Street phenomenon would flatten out, that it was over. But I didn't count on all the young people like you coming into the business who admired Gordon Gekko. They [crosstalk 00:27:40]-

Anthony Scaramucci: (27:40)
Oh my, be fair to me. I wrote a book that said Goodbye Gordon Gekko. You read the book.

Oliver Stone: (27:45)
Yeah, oh you got it, I think you understood it. I'm saying a lot of young people told me that that was their movie they saw when they were 17 or 18 and it really made their day, and they wanted to go to Wall Street. They changed their majors from engineering or from science and they said, "Well, I'm going to go into Wall Street."

Anthony Scaramucci: (28:05)
Okay, so I have one last question for you-

Oliver Stone: (28:08)
Oh, wait, that doesn't get me to the end of what I'm going to say.

Anthony Scaramucci: (28:10)
No, no, go ahead. Please, go ahead. No, I want you to finish, yeah.

Oliver Stone: (28:12)
Briefly, the reason I went back, I had been offered sequels to do Wall Street through the '90s and the 2000s. I turned them all down. But in 2008, 2010, I'm sorry, I made the sequel with Michael Douglas because Fox owned the property and they wanted to make the movie. They wanted Douglas, they didn't care about me. Douglas insisted that I direct it, which I think was a good idea. I saw it as a chance to address the 2008 burn down. Was it 2008, right?

Anthony Scaramucci: (28:44)
Yes, 2008 crisis, yes.

Oliver Stone: (28:46)
Yeah, because that crisis was completely different. No one saw that coming except those on the inside. It was about Wall Street being a new kind of instrument for banks to operate. The banks in the second Wall Street or the owners of the economy. That was not true in 1987. The banks, because of Glass–Steagall repeal, of that law in 1999 by Clinton and that group, that horrible... You know who he is, I forgot his name, the biggest... the guy from Citibank, ring a bell?

Anthony Scaramucci: (29:22)
Well, yeah, yeah. You're thinking of-

Oliver Stone: (29:24)
Rubin.

Anthony Scaramucci: (29:24)
... Sandy Weill and Bob Rubin.

Oliver Stone: (29:27)
Bob Rubin, yeah. Those guys pushed... And also Sandy Weill, Sandy Weill was my father's last employer. Now, how'd that happen? Because he took over the firm that my father worked for. Among other firms. He combined travel companies, insurance companies, Wall Street companies, it was a new business. Everything got bigger, far bigger than I ever dreamed. Money started to inflate. Young people on the street in 1987 who are making 20 million dollars a year was stunning to me, I couldn't believe it. I was knowing kids from school, "Hey I made 20 million, I'll make 30 million next year." Blah, blah, blah. I was shocked. It was a lot of money.

Oliver Stone: (30:07)
But in 2008 people were making billions, and the banks had gotten into this game in a big way. And they were, obviously with collateralized debt, whatever they called them, they made up all these new financial instruments and were making a fortune, a real fortune. And it was kind of disgusting because it really had gotten to... You know more about it. But it was crazy, it was too crazy. The whole thing was going to blow up, I thought. And they did. They got bailed out, they got bailed out big time, the banks, all the banks. They were all guilty. All of them. They got bailed out big time by Obama.

Anthony Scaramucci: (30:50)
Yeah. Well it was actually, Bush started the bailout, Obama finished it off. But-

Oliver Stone: (30:54)
Is that true?

Anthony Scaramucci: (30:54)
Yeah, yeah. Bush basically put the TAR program together with [Hank Carlson 00:30:58]. But listen, I mean, we could debate it, but it was... if they didn't get bailed out it was probably going to be even a further catastrophe. I've got one last question, and then John has a few questions. We have to get our millennial in here so we get good ratings Oliver. He's like... Look at how bright and young he looks. But my last question is that, you're a phenomenal reader, you're an even better writer, for that matter. I mean, the book, Chasing the Light, incredibly well written, and people should run out and buy the book. And I look at all the books behind you. What books do you recommend to people that have been influential on you intellectually and that's helped to shape your worldview?

Oliver Stone: (31:41)
Oh gosh, no Anthony, that's not fair. You should've asked me that in advance, I would've prepared a list. I read everything, I read from everywhere. It's just a [crosstalk 00:31:51]-

Anthony Scaramucci: (31:51)
Well how about just a few. How about just a few that come to mind. You don't have to be that well prepared. One that you [crosstalk 00:31:57]-

Oliver Stone: (31:58)
Well I just want to say, with Peter Kuznick, I wrote and directed a documentary called Untold History of the United States, which came out in 2014.

Anthony Scaramucci: (32:08)
Showtime did the series, right?

Oliver Stone: (32:10)
Yeah. And it's played all around the world practically, and it continues to do well. It was on Netflix and all that, now it's on streamer services. And I'm very proud of it. It was a lot of work, it took five years. But I went back to school in a sense with... Peter's a professor of history at American University, a liberal, American history. I don't always agree with him on everything, but he really put me through a school in the sense of understanding a lot of the things that I had not understood.

Oliver Stone: (32:40)
The history goes from 1898, the beginning of the Philippine War, and our involvement in Cuba and the Philippines, and carries through to Obama and his whistleblower program between 2014. It's before Trump. But it's a powerful series. And I read so much about history in conjunction with that. But I still... And I enjoy... And I shifted my thinking about everything, about WWII, about what the reasons of it were, what the consequences of it were, how America changed in that war. We became from being an isolationist kind of country where we became a heavily involved imperial colonial power acting as if we were the continuation of Britain's empire and French empire.

Oliver Stone: (33:34)
And this was a huge mistake. Huge mistake. And it became the basis of our involvement overseas. We have so many military, 800 plus military bases overseas, ringing the world. We are seeking to control everything in the world and it's just not going to be possible and sets up a whole bunch of major problems. And we are not going to emerge from this until we look back to 70 years ago when this WWII ended and see what we did. We committed to a program which I think we're going to regret. Basically world hegemony, world domination.

Oliver Stone: (34:14)
Books, books. God, I've read thousands of books. I don't know what to say first. I think Untold History is a powerful book.

Anthony Scaramucci: (34:24)
All right, well we'll go with that. Well I'll post that up on our website. I thought your book was very powerful, it was poetic. It was heartwarming, it was honest, it was authentic, it had every element of your personality was imbued in this book.

Oliver Stone: (34:43)
Yeah. Just wanted to show you in case.

Anthony Scaramucci: (34:52)
There you go.

Oliver Stone: (34:53)
Can you see it?

Anthony Scaramucci: (34:54)
Yep, yeah, it's very prominently displayed. And we'll make sure that we get those out there. And I will tell you, I watched every segment on Showtime when it came out. And I [crosstalk 00:35:04]-

Oliver Stone: (35:04)
[crosstalk 00:35:04].

Anthony Scaramucci: (35:04)
I learned a lot.

Oliver Stone: (35:07)
And aside from JFK, that is my opus.

Anthony Scaramucci: (35:09)
Yeah. I learned a lot about Henry Wallace in that book. And I learned about the decision... I mean, and not the book, but the series, where he was taken off of the ballot for some of his views and replaced by Harry Truman, which probably also impacted the way the war ended with the atomic bombs that were unleashed in Japan. So it is certainly a serious documentary worth watching and worth reading the book. We got a couple more questions for you Oliver, we're going to invite my millennial cohost in, John Darsie. Fire away John. What did I leave out, okay? For the professor here to talk about.

John Darsie: (35:48)
Well Oliver, it's a pleasure to have you on. One thing we like to talk about on this show is, we try to break down the myth that success or self actualization is a straight line for people who have achieved the type of success that you have in your given industry. And as I mentioned in the open, you went from basically a 30 year old cab driver big breaks, and breaking into the movie game as you like to call it. What was sort of the ingredients to your rise from being somebody who was struggling to making it in the industry, to somebody who now is one of the most famous filmmakers of all time?

Oliver Stone: (36:25)
Well it's a struggle, and I outline it in the book, Chasing the Light. All those years of shaping my writing skills. I mean, I never gave up writing. I wrote the book at 19 when I went to film school, finally, after Vietnam. It took me about six months, almost a year, to get my life together. But when I went to film school I kept writing screenplays, although they were not popular back then because the nouvelle vague was in power and screenwriting was not considered important.

Oliver Stone: (36:59)
But I'd always kept at it. And I used to write about two scripts a year, or at least one treatment and one script, and kept submitting them and getting rejections. And they're very important to learn, for me, to learn the art of writing screenplays. And a lot of directors don't have to. I mean, a lot of young people can become commercial directors, or they find other ways, documentary, to work their way into directing and producing. But for me it was always through writing. So that slows you down a bit, because it takes longer to write. And it took me a while to break through.

Oliver Stone: (37:32)
Robert Bolt was significant. He wrote... Was one of the great screenwriters of his time. He became a mentor at one point. But I talk about the break I finally had with a man that... I wrote Platoon in '76, 1976, it did not get produced until '86. That's a big... It was rejected numerous times as being negative and all the reasons why it was real. It was about what I saw and it was important, but it was not Rambo, and it was not a Chuck Norris film. For that matter, it was not Apocalypse Now, which is mythic, a beautiful movie, but not realistic to me as a soldier on the ground, nor was Deer Hunter. But they were both powerful... those two movies were very powerful.

Oliver Stone: (38:18)
But that kicked off a kind of Vietnam wave, but they wouldn't make Platoon. For seven more years I had to... I was very frustrated. And finally I got a break with Midnight Express, which was a low budget film at Columbia in '78, '77, eight, and it did very well, and made big money. And it was made for very little money but it was tremendous. He went around the world. And I talk about that and my rise in the system, but then I talk about my fall, and I talk about all those things that can get in the way. Happen to success, and how success can be very elusive and it can be disfiguring.

Oliver Stone: (39:02)
I came back with Salvador and Platoon, and I talk about that in depth. The Salvador movie is a... How do you make a movie with no money? How do you go down to a foreign country and try to stage a revolution? Try to stage a helicopter war? It was really quite a significant undertaking, and I'm amazed we survived and succeeded. After Salvador I made Platoon. All this with British money, not with American money. It was financed out of an independent British producer.

John Darsie: (39:33)
How important was your relationship with Martin Scorsese, sort of as a mentor early in your break into the movie game?

Oliver Stone: (39:43)
Marty was a teacher at NYU, he was young, very vibrant. Were many good teachers at NYU. He was one of them, and I think he inspired many of us. He loved movies, you can see that. And he treated it like a theological seminar. To him it was crucial, movies were the essence of life, they were... it was like finding God. And I talk about the development. And how he encouraged, at least with me, he very much liked one of the films I did, short films. And he told the class one time that, "Here is a filmmaker." Which was sort of for me like a diploma.

Oliver Stone: (40:20)
You have to understand that that's very important in a young man's life, a young filmmaker's life. Afterward he became, as you know, a big success in Hollywood. But I really didn't intersect with him much. That was my major intersection with him.

John Darsie: (40:37)
So you produced a fascinating movie about Edward Snowden. It's called Snowden. Obviously it was met with some level of controversy. He is vilified by US intelligence agencies and much of the Western world for blowing the whistle on government secrets, corporate secrets, but there's also a large contingent of people that think that he opened the light on some very serious malpractice, or issues related to government actions. So, in your opinion, and I think I know the answer to this question, but do you think Edward Snowden, as well as Julian Assange should be pardoned? If yes, why?

Oliver Stone: (41:17)
Yes. I think you know my position on that. Posted it on my Facebook page. I think that it would be shocking if Trump, who is not known for his sense of mercy, were to grant mercy to both Assange and Snowden. It would be quite surprising. And it would look good in history for him. It would alert some of the, perhaps, mistaken perception of him as a ruthless self promoter and egoist.

Oliver Stone: (41:48)
But we'll see what happens in the next few weeks. He's preoccupied with his own thought of his election and so forth. I'm old enough now, and I guess you're of a different age, but I'm old enough to have seen, as I said before, 70 years of mismanagement since WWII. 70 years. I've seen the intelligence agencies lie, and the Pentagon, lie us into every war we've been in. Whether it was Vietnam, whether it was Iran, Iraq rather, or Afghanistan, and so forth and so on. And not only the wars, but these missions in foreign countries, like in libya and in Syria, and all over the Middle East. None of which have worked, none of which have succeeded. They've only succeeded in killing more people and destroying more infrastructure.

Oliver Stone: (42:46)
It's a tremendous disservice to the world. So I'm not an admiring of intelligent... I don't think of the CIA and the FBI as all knowing, must less the NSA, which they're not supposed to be a... they're just supposed to be a gatherer, they gather information. But again, all these powers, all these agencies use their power to enhance their power. They grow in time like fungus. They get bigger, and bigger, and bigger, and they can't check themselves. CIA was supposed to be an intelligence gathering organization in 1947. Truman intended it... Truman always said, at the end of his life, said that it was a huge mistake.

Oliver Stone: (43:28)
You gave these... These are supernational, these are outside the democratic process. These are agencies that have way too much power, and they've gotten us into a lot of hot water. So I would tell you as a young person, disbelieve everything they say, everything. You have to. You have to demand proof. You have to say, "Where's the evidence of this?" And don't buy their bullshit lying about, "Well, we can't tell you our source because it will compromise our source." Don't go with that. That's the problem. They've been... And I can't believe what happened with Trump on this whole thing. He's come into office and all of a sudden all the liberals in America, they love the FBI, and they love the CIA.

Oliver Stone: (44:09)
Many of us were disgusted by this, because we know the truth. We know that intelligence agencies promote themselves.

John Darsie: (44:17)
So, I want to ask you one more question before we let you go Oliver. Chasing the Light ends in 1987, after Platoon comes out and you're going through the awards ceremony for that. So you're always good for a great sequel. Are we going to see Chasing the Light 2? Or another iteration of the second half of your career? Or what should we expect going forward [crosstalk 00:44:40]?

Oliver Stone: (44:40)
I hope so. I do hope so. I hope I sell enough books to justify it and people are interested. But frankly, yes, I would love to. I think I have to do it anyway, just to set my own soul in order before the end. It's a great story, from 1986 on. The reason I ended it '86 was because it was big story already. I realized a huge dream, the writing and directing a movie. Not only writing and directing a movie, but the movie achieves an international success beyond any expectation I had. I can't tell you, Platoon went around the world, had huge impact, every country had made an impact, every country had made money.

Oliver Stone: (45:20)
It got, on top of that, reviews and it got Oscar nominations. And I had Elizabeth Taylor giving me an Oscar for best director and giving me a big kiss. What the hell? I mean, Elizabeth Taylor was the star of my youth. She was an attractive young actress of her time.

Anthony Scaramucci: (45:39)
Oliver, I'm going to hold up your book one more time here, Chasing the Light. A Merry Christmas to you and your family, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanzaa, whatever you're celebrating. But more importantly, this is great Christmas gift. And this is a gift that every young person should get actually, because it is a rite of passage story, it's raw, it's authentic, it's honest. And it's revelatory about the human condition in a way that moved me, Oliver. So thank you for writing it.

Oliver Stone: (46:07)
Oh, thank you Anthony, I'm glad you read it. And I hope we get together soon.

Anthony Scaramucci: (46:13)
All right, amen.

Oliver Stone: (46:13)
When this is over.

John Darsie: (46:15)
And thank you to everyone who tuned in to today's SALT Talk with Oliver Stone. Just a reminder, you can sign up for all of our future SALT Talks at salt.org/talks, and you can access our entire archive of SALT Talks at salt.org/talks/archive. Please follow us on social media. We're on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn. If you're on those channels, please follow us, and follow our pages, and interact with our content there. We post a lot of the content live and on demand on all of our social channels. So please follow us there.

John Darsie: (46:48)
Tell your friends about SALT Talks, if you come across an interesting interview, pass it along to your friends, your family. I know a lot of my family tunes into these talks and they still don't understand bitcoin, but it's a work in progress. But please, pass along the message. We love growing our community and growing the audience of people that we're able to educate on a variety of different topics.

John Darsie: (47:09)
And on behalf of the entire SALT team, this is John Darsie signing off for 2021 from SALT... or signing off for 2020 from SALT Talks rather. Good riddance to 2020, it's been a long year, but we've been fortunate to make the most of it here on SALT with these SALT Talks, despite our conferences being canceled. But I will see you back here in 2021, and thank you for being part of the SALT community.

Stephen A. Smith: Becoming a Difference-Maker | SALT Talks #133

“For better or worse, there's only one me. I just say what I feel based on the facts and the information that I have before me.”

Stephen A. Smith is co-host of ESPN2’s First Take and is ESPN’s most recognizable personality and studio analyst. Before ESPN, Smith was a newspaper beat writer and columnist for 18 years.

Authenticity is critical in connecting with an audience. Combining hard work with that authenticity ultimately drives success. This means falling in the love with the process and committing yourself to the less glamorous behind-the-scenes work that viewers don’t see. Using fear can be a great motivator in driving that commitment to process. “Get caught up in the process… If you’re not enjoying that, you’re not going to enjoy your job.”

The social influence of athletes is greater than ever. Colin Kaepernick represents a major shift in the approach athletes are taking by speaking out on societal issues, particularly racial, that plague the United States. The influence and power that athletes wield will inevitably force corporate America to lean in and serve as allies in the push for change.

LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE

SPEAKER

Stephen A. Smith.jpg

Stephen A. Smith

ESPN’s First Take & SportsCenter

MODERATOR

anthony_scaramucci.jpeg

Anthony Scaramucci

Founder & Managing Partner

SkyBridge

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

John Darsie: (00:07)
Hello everyone. And welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is John Darsie. I'm the managing director of SALT, which is a global thought leadership forum and networking platform at the intersection of finance, technology, public policy, and sometimes sports and entertainment which is the direction that we're going in today. We're very excited for today's SALT Talk. The SALT Talks is a digital interview series with leading investors, creators, and thinkers. And what we're trying to do on SALT Talks is replicate the experience that we provided our global conferences, the SALT conference, which we host twice a year, once in the United States and once internationally. And what we're trying to do on these SALT Talks and at our conferences is provide a window into the mind of subject matter experts, as well as provide a platform for what we think are big and interesting ideas that are shaping the future.

John Darsie: (00:55)
And we're very excited today to welcome Stephen A. Smith to SALT Talks. Stephen A. is a former newspaper beat writer and columnist for 18 years, and he's become unquestionably ESPN's most recognizable personality and most visible studio analyst. Since joining ESPN in 2003, Stephen A. has been a fixture on sports center, primarily as the worldwide leaders premier NBA analyst, which included NBA shootaround and NBA fast break. And he also hosts sports center with Stephen A. Smith.

John Darsie: (01:26)
In 2005, he was given his own national television show, Quite Frankly, on ESPN2 with Stephen A. Smith, which was a one hour weeknight show featuring sports, news, opinions, issues, headlines, and interviews, which lasted for 327 shows from August of 2005 to January of 2007. Stephen A. has been the co-host of ESPN2's First Take since May of 2012, which moved to the main network ESPN in 2016. From a clerk and a writer at the Winston-Salem Journal in my home state of North Carolina from 1991 to 1992, to an editorial assistance position at the Greensboro News and Record in 1992 and 1993. From a high school writers position at the New York Daily News from 1993 to '94 to a career at the Philadelphia Inquirer from '94 to 2010.

John Darsie: (02:19)
He started as a college beat writer to now becoming the foremost NBA analyst. And one of only 21 African-Americans in American history elevated to the position of general sports columnists in 2003 in March at that time. Smith considering his success in all three mediums by all accounts is one of the most successful journalists and commentators of the modern era. And again, we're very excited to have Stephen A. with us on SALT Talks today. If you have any questions for Stephen, you can enter them in the Q&A box at the bottom of your video screen on Zoom. And hosting today's interview is Anthony Scaramucci, the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge Capital, which is a global alternative investment firm. Anthony is also the chairman of SALT. And with that, I'll turn it over to Anthony for the interview.

Anthony Scaramucci: (03:07)
John, you left out one thing, he's probably been voted best dressed by GQ at some point in his career. I'm old enough to remember Lindsey Nelson who used to wear those flamboyant sports jacket. Stephen A. welcome to SALT Talks. It's an honor to have you on. How did we go from sports journalism to ESPN? What was the trigger?

Stephen A. Smith: (03:30)
For me, I was breaking stories a lot. I was a newspaper writer for the Philadelphia Inquirer. I started my career as a high school scores reporter for the New York Daily News from '93 to '94. And then I went to the Philadelphia Inquirer in 1994. And in 1998, there was an NBA lockout. The owners had locked the players out in pursuit of a new collective bargaining deal. And at that particular moment in time, everybody was trying to figure out what was going on as negotiations stalled, halted, progressed, et cetera, all different types of things that were going on as you well know that's what happens in that world. And during that particular moment in time, I was breaking a lot of stories. I had sources that were on the executive committee that was on the negotiating committee for both respective sides. I was lucky and fortunate enough to get access to a lot of information that a lot of people didn't have.

Stephen A. Smith: (04:21)
And so when the television networks needed somebody to talk about these things, Comcast locally, mainly in Philadelphia, Bruce Beck, who works at NBC in New York City now at the time was working for the NBC in Philadelphia. And he would have me on, and others would have me on Comcast and they couldn't afford to pay me. I told them, you don't have to, just make a copy of my appearances and give me a copy of it. I used that and I used those appearances and turned it to a portfolio. And then I showed it to CNN/SI, that was CNN Sports Illustrated which was an existing sports network at the time. And CNN had partnered with Sports Illustrated. And I started off. They hired me on the spot and then that developed into a deal with Fox sports Net two years later in 2001. And then in 2003, ESPN came calling. So that's really how the television portion of my career in terms of sports broadcasting actually started.

Anthony Scaramucci: (05:25)
You and I both know, television is not easy, 17 years on television, and you have this very unique style. You reek of authenticity, Stephen Thoreau, budding television presenters, sports journalists, broadcasters, et cetera, are watching today. What would you say to them about the travails of television? What's your experience there? What do you recommend to them and how did you develop your style?

Stephen A. Smith: (05:55)
Well, the last part of that question is always the most difficult for me to answer because I didn't have any kind of broadcasting training whatsoever. My attitude, when I looked at broadcast was that you needed to smile and know how to read a prompter. The latter part was very easy for me, the former, not so much because I'm not a smiler, I'm not the George Foreman type as they say. I don't just cheese for the cameras. You make me laugh, I laugh. You make me smile, I smile. But I'm not going to fake it just to show to give a pleasant view or a pleasure to meet you, that's just not my MO.

Stephen A. Smith: (06:25)
And so for me, when I had the newspaper background, I knew that there was substance attached to me because I was a reporter and I was digging for information. I was in constant pursuit of the truth, not just looking for the license to editorialize and opine. And as a result, because I knew that I had that content, okay, when you get in front of the camera and the lights come on, there really is just all I had was for me to be me. So the manner in which I speak, the way I articulate myself, the way I disseminate information, et cetera, that has always been my way.

Stephen A. Smith: (06:55)
And as a result, it just stuck. So when people ask me, "How can I do this? How can I be like you or whatever?" I'm like, "Well, for better or worse, there's only one me. I just say what I feel based on the facts and the information that I have before me. This is where I stand. This is how I feel in the moment. I'm not afraid to correct myself. I'm not afraid to admit I'm wrong on a rare occasion that I believe that I am." And that's just my mentality.

Stephen A. Smith: (07:22)
And as long as you're coming from that perspective, there's a level of humanity that's attached to your willingness to admit that you're wrong or willingness to be real and authentic because what I'm trying to convey to the audience, I want them to know they can trust me. And what I mean by that is not just trust my information, but trust that I believe what I'm telling you. If I need to be corrected, I need to be corrected, but I'm not faking anything. I'm coming at you from that perspective. And because of that, that I believe is what has been able to propel me.

Stephen A. Smith: (07:51)
So when I look at people in this industry, I would tell them all that glitters isn't gold. Be ready to put your head down and go about the business of doing the work. Don't get caught up in the sizzle, get caught up in the work. Don't get caught up in the culminating point, the end result. Get caught up in the process because there's usually a long and lengthy process that comes before the actual accomplishment. And if you're not married to that, if you're not enjoying that, then you're not going to enjoy your job.

Stephen A. Smith: (08:22)
And the difference between most people's job and my job is when I'm speaking to people, hundreds of thousands if not millions, actually at this point in time of my career, it's tens of millions of people per day. The bottom line is, is that if I don't enjoy it and I'm not passionate about it, and I don't feel what I'm talking about, the first people that are going to notice is that audience. And before long, they'll be gone, looking to find someone else that inspires them or that ingratiates themselves with them to a point where they're willing to gravitate towards them.

Anthony Scaramucci: (08:57)
All right. But you've got this unique thing going, you know and I know it, and God bless you for it. For me, I was getting hit in the head with a wooden spoon by my Italian nana. I had to fight it out at the dinner table on Sundays with my cousins, and that was my media training. Where did you get the media training from? Was it from your family?

Stephen A. Smith: (09:19)
Well, if you put it that way, I mean, that's easy. I'm the youngest of six. I have four older sisters that were living with-

Anthony Scaramucci: (09:25)
I'm surprised that you have a 32 inch waist, if you're the youngest of six [crosstalk 00:09:30].

Stephen A. Smith: (09:30)
It's actually 36 and counting is going down. But the point is, is that I've got four older sisters that beat me up figuratively. Literally at times, they were my litmus test per se. A few of them, no sports, my dad-

Anthony Scaramucci: (09:46)
You've taken all of that out on the Dallas Cowboys, right? All of that like pop.

Stephen A. Smith: (09:50)
For me with the Dallas Cowboys, it's really not about them, it's about their fans. I think Dallas Cowboys' fans are the most disgusting nauseated fan base in American history. They make me sick and there's nothing in life that makes me more happy when it comes to sports than to see them miserable. I think Dallas Cowboys' fans are the worst human beings a lot. It doesn't matter if they go one in 15 and the season ends on a January 5th at 7:00 PM. By 7:10, 7:15, they'll be telling you, "You know we're going to win the super bowl next year?" They don't take any time to smell themselves at how stink they are. And that's what I can't stand about Dallas Cowboys' fans, which is why I like rubbing their nose into it.

Stephen A. Smith: (10:29)
And I must be thankful to the Dallas Cowboys, because I like Jerry Jones. I really do. I like Jerry Jones a lot. And the Cowboys allure the $5 billion franchise brand that they are. Major props to him. But because of their fan base, nothing pleases me more than to watch the Dallas Cowboys lose, especially during the holidays. I don't like it when they win. They lose in September, October, but they'll win in January, February. No, I want them to lose around Thanksgiving and I want that to flow right through Christmas so the whole holiday season is ruined. I don't wish anything like that upon anyone on this planet, but the Cowboys' fans.

Anthony Scaramucci: (11:09)
I'm going to take mayor of Dallas off of your second act career. No problem. You still-

Stephen A. Smith: (11:16)
He might not be a Cowboys fan. He might not be a Cowboys fan for all we know. You never know.

Anthony Scaramucci: (11:22)
I don't know, but you might be governor of Texas. I mean, because some of the Texas is antidotal suit. Well, let me ask you this because this is something I absolutely love about you. Of course I've been watching it like everybody else for the 17 years. You take absolutely no bullshit ever from anybody. You call people out on it on the air, you interrupt them when you know that they're giving you malarkey. And so how did you get that detector going? Is that from your sisters too? Where did that sound detector come from?

Stephen A. Smith: (11:54)
That's the streets. Born in the Bronx, raised in Hollis Queens. Walking the streets like thank God I had the most wonderful mother on the planet I didn't got arrested. That kept me off the streets in terms of me engaging in any illegal activity. But I certainly was surrounded by, in terms of the people that I knew. I grew up with drug dealers. I grew up with drug runners. I grew up with guys that were relatively violent or what have you. When you from the streets and you have to survive in that stratosphere, particularly when you're operating on the right side of the tracks, instead of the wrong side of the tracks, you've got to have your sense and you've got to be alert at all times. And you got to be able to decipher what's real from the BS. People trying to set you up, trying to put you in compromising positions and things of that nature. You got to be alerted to all of that.

Stephen A. Smith: (12:45)
And so growing up at a very young age, I knew that if I needed to survive in the streets, Ronald Reagan once said it best if I remember correctly, trust but verify. If I remember, I think that came from him and that's been my mentality a lot. I'm fortunate and blessed to have great friends and family members in my inner circle who are tremendously loved by me. They're very knowledgeable. They're very smart and what have you. But even with them, I'll double check what they have to say. I'll triple check what they have to say. That's just my MO and it comes from Ronald Reagan.

Anthony Scaramucci: (13:23)
In my neighborhood, out on Long Island, there was a prolific drug culture. My uncle owned a motorcycle shop. I worked in that motorcycle shop. I've learned how to shoot craps at age 11. I learned how to drive a three speed Dodge van at age three. So everybody who I'm running money for right now is redeeming on my phone, which is fine. But I knew despite that rough crowd, that I was going to try to go straight and I was going to try to do the right things and stay away from that stuff. You did too. So there was a moment, there was a seminal moment where that popped into your head. That little bubble popped into your head, Stephen, you said, this is the where I'm going. And so offer some guidance and perspective to some of the young people that are listening to us right now. What happened? Why did that bubble pop into your head and catalyze you in the direction that you're in?

Stephen A. Smith: (14:15)
Well, a couple of things. Number one is love. The love of your loved ones closest to you who have your best interests at heart. That definitely goes a long way because even those who are operating on the wrong side of the tracks, they'll tell you, you don't need to be there. I have literally had drug dealers that would sit around and say, okay, this guy is trying to get a basketball scholarship. He's going somewhere. Do not bother him. And would instruct the people working for them do not bother him. Let him shoot his hoops at 192 park and Hollis, Queens, New York on 204th street. Let him shoot his 200, 300 jumps shot. Do not bother him. And then when it was time for them to do their business, they would say it's time for you to get on out of here. So that was love right there.

Stephen A. Smith: (14:56)
Number two violence. Because I saw somebody get gunned down right in front of my face. He got his head blown off right in front of me when I was 10 years old. So that definitely went a long way and we sort of knew his background and what he was doing. And so it crystallized in your mind that if you're doing these kinds of things in all likelihood, that's how your life would probably end. And you have to ask yourself whether or not you wanted that. And then for me personally, again, I keep bringing up my mother because she worked so hard and she made so many sacrifices. When you have someone that you love as dearly as I loved my mom, you want to make them proud, you don't want to disappoint them. And so you got to think about those things as you're striving to be something and to make something of yourself.

Stephen A. Smith: (15:42)
And a lot of times when we see youngsters out there, they've got this, what coach the John Chaney, the legendary coach John Chaney, who used to coach at Temple University, their basketball squad. He called it the microwave society. He despised the mentality that youngsters have wanting everything now and wanting everything to leapfrog the process without really working and maneuvering your way through it. And what I would encourage young people to do is not only should you go through the process, you should enjoy it because it elevates your level of knowledge. When you have to go through a certain terrain, a minefield, in order to get to where you want to go, then guess what? Once you get there, first of all, no one can question you because you've got there the right way. And number two, nobody can question your knowledge because you have experiences that most people didn't have. Look at you, Anthony, and all the things that you've been able to accomplish in your career and in your life.

Stephen A. Smith: (16:36)
The number one reason people should recognize that you're on TV a lot of times talking, when I see you on CNN and other places, is because of your knowledge and experience. It's not just your ability. Yeah, you have the ability, but you have a knowledge and a level of experience that comes along with it. So when you're talking, I see people listening to you and want to debate you. But then there are other times you're talking and people instinctually know to shut the hell up because you've been places they haven't been. That experience really buffers and augments you to another level that will ultimately enable you to speak with a level of authority that could ultimately make you successful at whatever you do. And that's my philosophy.

Anthony Scaramucci: (17:19)
Let me tell you something, Stephen, I'm going to be clipping that and playing it for my wife who happens to be the most expensive makeup artists in the world. She thinks it's all about her makeup is the reason why I'm on television. I want to make sure-

Stephen A. Smith: (17:31)
No, no, wait a minute. I got to give you a piece of advice, let her believe that.

Anthony Scaramucci: (17:35)
Okay. All right. I take it back. [crosstalk 00:17:39] because she loves Stephen. You cut this piece out.

Stephen A. Smith: (17:45)
This is the way.

John Darsie: (17:46)
We'll cut that.

Anthony Scaramucci: (17:48)
Of course we're not cutting anything, we're doing this live. The thing I want to say to you that is so admirable of you is the grounding. I can feel the grounding wire and you have soared my friend and congratulations to you for that. And I hope you continue to soar to ever higher and higher Heights, but there is a grounding wire. You can see it on the air. I can see it right now in this interview. Is that coming from your mom? Is that coming from your spirituality? Is that coming from your grace in terms of your gratitude at the way life has unfolded for you? Tell us about your grounding wire and how you've been able to maintain.

Stephen A. Smith: (18:29)
Well, it's all of the above, but it starts with mama. Because mama was the one that worked hard. Mama was the one that worked 16 hours a day, seven days a week, had one week vacation a year, just to feed us. Even though she was married to my dad for many years. Let's just say he wasn't as responsible as he should have been. And that put a lot of the onus on my mother's shoulders. And so to witness that, and to witness her struggle, first, it was an aspiration not to disappoint her. Then ultimately it became an aspiration to make her proud. And then in the process of doing that, then you run into other people along the way who gravitate to you because of the character she helped instill in me.

Stephen A. Smith: (19:11)
And so then, from a spiritual perspective, I go to Christian Cultural Center in Brooklyn, New York. My pastor is A.R. Bernard. He's a phenomenal, phenomenal, man. I love him dearly. He's always been there for me. And he's somebody that I trust implicitly. And so to have that kind of guidance, definitely helps. Then you think about the family members that you have, that my mother influenced, the people in the neighborhood that I grew up with, that I know that I could trust. Because it's not always about people being the way you want them to be, it's about them being their unapologetic selves. They don't disguise it from you, you know who they are. And as a result, you can trust them to be exactly who you know them to be. And there's a benefit to that as well.

Stephen A. Smith: (19:56)
And so all of those things come together and it helps develop you into the adult that you aspire to be because the challenges that inevitably are going to come your way, you know that you're prepared to deal with whatever, because you've seen so much of it, because you've been so thoroughly prepared by the people you love and the people that love you that are a part of your inner circle. They buffer your knowledge. They buffer your conscience. They buffer a lot of different things that help make you better at what you do.

Stephen A. Smith: (20:25)
So when I'm grounded, I'm grounded because of them as well. Because just the same way I feel about them, they feel about me. Because there's a trust there, they can tell me anything. They could tell me when they think I'm wrong. They can tell me when they think that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. They can tell me when they say, excuse me, you need to do this, you need to do that. They might lecture you. They might pester you. Sometimes you even want to listen to them. You don't want to hear it. But in the end, when you know they have both knowledge, and two, a spirit and a heart about them when it comes to you that makes trustworthy, you end up wanting to listen to them because you value them.

Stephen A. Smith: (20:59)
The people I surrounded myself with are what keep me grounded right now. Because even though I'm Stephen A. to them, I'm Steve or I'm Stephen. I'm not Stephen A. I'm the same dude that grew up in Hollis. Yeah, I might be a little bit more successful and certainly more recognizable. But the bottom line is, they will not tolerate chillings from me, because they love me just the way that I was.

Anthony Scaramucci: (21:24)
Well, I mean, listen, I totally identify with that. I live two miles from where I grew up. I'm one of the few people that went to college in my family. Everybody's named Anthony because we're Italian. That's my great grandfather-

Stephen A. Smith: (21:37)
You know my middle name is Anthony, right?

Anthony Scaramucci: (21:38)
Right, right. I know that. Of course I know that. Come on, man. Stephen A. But let me just say this, we got Anthony Auto Glass, we have Anthony Clamor, we have Anthony Pizzeria. I'm just having to be Anthony hedge fund on Christmas Eve.

Stephen A. Smith: (21:52)
I'm quite sure they would grab the hand of the hedge fund.

Anthony Scaramucci: (21:56)
Trust me, they treat me like, Anthony, you know what? Low on the bottom of the shoe, which is all good by me. Before we get back to sports though, I got to ask you this, I'm really identifying with this conversation. And it's a Tyson thing. Everybody's got a plan until they get smacked up in the face, had setbacks. There's no way you're getting to be Stephen A. from Stephen, Hollis, Queens to where you are right now without setbacks. So describe your resiliency. Describe the methodology behind your resiliency and describe all of that positivity that has gotten you to where you are.

Stephen A. Smith: (22:35)
You call it positivity, I wouldn't. Matter of fact, fear is a great, great motivation for me. Fear of failure, fear of disappointment, fear of having to live with myself knowing that you may have failed because you didn't give it you all.

Anthony Scaramucci: (22:55)
Fear of poverty, Stephen. I've had the fear of poverty thing going my whole life.

Stephen A. Smith: (22:59)
And fear of poverty is a big thing. And I'll tell you something right now. The latest, I mean, obviously I grew up or what have you, but the latest was in 2009 ESPN elects not to renew my contract. We had a contract dispute. They elected not to renew my contract. And for a full year, I was unemployed living off of my savings. More importantly, even though I thought I had established myself in the business, clearly I hadn't because no one was knocking on my door, willing to hire me to be in television. And when you got to taste a bit, I made my first million dollars in 2005, thinking that I had arrived and what have you.

Stephen A. Smith: (23:38)
And then all of a sudden, just four years later, everything, and I do mean everything, falls apart at the time that I was expecting to be a daddy. It was incredibly scary because I grew up poor and I did not want my children ever grow up poor and struggling and starving and things of that nature. And I was literally, literally scared to death. And so that level of fear. For some reason, I put my head down, I do what I always do. I put my head down, I went to work. I pounded the pavement. I was tenacious. I persevered. And then I got back. And when I got back two years later at ESPN, because after one year I got hired by Fox Sports Radio to do their morning drive show for a year. And then after that, ESPN can call me again.

Stephen A. Smith: (24:25)
And I remember that my boss, was my boss to this very day, my immediate supervisor, his name is Dave Roberts. Phenomenal boss. I told him I'm taking over. I said the fall from grace, if you thought I couldn't be more motivated than I was before, watch out now. And so he always laughs and reminds me of my work ethic, my dedication. I remember that one of the big bosses, his name was John Wildhack. He was an executive VP over production for ESPN. He's now the athletic director at Syracuse University. And he introduced me to talk to the football team one time. And he said, I've been in the business for 35 years. I'm about to introduce our next speaker, talking about me. He said, he's the first man in my 35 years that I had to make, take vacation. The dude doesn't stop. And that is a reputation I love to have. When am I off? When the job is done. When am I finished? When the job is done.

Anthony Scaramucci: (25:30)
I love it. I love it. And I'm going to tell you something funny about Dave Roberts. I'm on CNN on the morning show and I'm doing it from my home studio, of course, because of COVID. My wife comes down with the cordless phone and she says, "Do you know a Dave Roberts?" And I said, "No." And she said, "Well, there's a guy by the name of Dave Roberts on the phone. He wants to talk to you." I'd just gotten off the air. I pick up the phone. I said, "Hello. "He says, "I'm Dave Roberts from ESPN. I got your phone number by looking it up on Google," there's my phone number. He's cold calling me, "Because I just want to tell you man, you're awesome on television and keep up the good work." And that's Dave Roberts, am I wrong about that? Or no?

Stephen A. Smith: (26:13)
That's him.

Anthony Scaramucci: (26:14)
And now him and I probably talk once or twice a month about what's going on in the world and sports and life and everything else.

Stephen A. Smith: (26:22)
He's a winner. He's a winner. Whatever he touches, turns to gold, as far as I'm concerned.

Anthony Scaramucci: (26:27)
He absolutely loves you. I have to turn it over to John Darsie in a second because if we don't get these millennials in, we don't get the ratings that I want. I got to let Darsie in in a second. But I just got to ask you two more quick questions. I want your favorites for the Super Bowl, you've been thinking about it. Who are your favorites?

Stephen A. Smith: (26:51)
Well, I had Tampa Bay at the beginning of the season, but right now I'm thinking the Kansas City Chiefs versus the Green Bay Packers.

Anthony Scaramucci: (26:58)
All right, that'd be an exciting game. Second question, of the leagues, COVID-19 who handled it the best, of the pro leagues?

Stephen A. Smith: (27:08)
Without a question the NBA, that's an easy one right there. When you consider the sacrifices that the players made combined with the team and the league itself, how organized they were. They went like the last couple of months or so, I'm talking about that whole time in the bubble. They didn't have one single positive test. It was unbelievable. You have players holding other players accountable. One player snuck some woman in there, and he didn't even get a chance to test positive. They sent them home. They didn't play. The NBA was on their game. The players were on their game. And I can't say enough for two people. I can't say enough. Of course, Adam Silver, the commissioner, did a phenomenal job. Of course, Michele Roberts and the Players Association, she's the executive director. They did a phenomenal job.

Stephen A. Smith: (27:53)
But two people really, really stand out. Chris Paul, who is the president of the Players Association and perennial all-star future Hall of Famer. This guy in terms of his willingness to play and play to the level that he played while at the same time, negotiating deals and stipulations on behalf of the players to make sure play could resume. You just can't say enough about the phenomenal job that he did and the level of credit that he deserves.

Stephen A. Smith: (28:20)
And more importantly, just as important is LeBron James. We can slice it any way we want to. This is the greatest play in the world right now. He ended up winning a fourth championship, but to be stuck in a bubble for 96 days, to be away from family loved ones and friends, to play the way that he played and keep his team as motivated and as focused as they needed to be in order to capture a championship and still carry that Baton while bringing attention to the George Floyds of the world, the Breonna Taylors of the world and others when we were talking about African-Americans and law enforcement officials, you just can't say enough about all the stuff that was on LeBron James' shoulders and the way that he handled himself and his team, enabling the Los Angeles Lakers to walk away with the 17th title in franchise history. You just can't say enough about it.

Anthony Scaramucci: (29:14)
Well, I'm going to turn it over, but I just let if you ever come to my office and visit me in New York, I've got a huge picture of Jackie Robinson in my office. And on the other side of the office, I got Muhammad Ali. Who are two of my heroes because they were originals and you know how much Jackie Robinson took to be in the Major Leagues. And a lot of the peace and social justice that we have found in our society has been moved by men and women of sports who had that level of courage and had that level of tenacity. Of course the champ, when I think about the GOAT, Muhammad Ali, what he was like in the sixties and what he stood for which everyone is still fighting for today. I got to turn it over to Darsie here, Stephen A., but if we get close, I'm going to start calling you Anthony, after your middle name. You'd be known as Steven Ant. All right?

Stephen A. Smith: (30:08)
No problem.

Anthony Scaramucci: (30:10)
Go ahead, Darsie. I know you've got some audience participation questions.

John Darsie: (30:12)
Yeah, I couldn't let Stephen A. out of here without talking a little shop with the GOAT, when it comes to TV personality. I grew up watching SportsCenter. It was appointment television for me when I was younger. Sports media has evolved with the advent of the iPhone and on-demand clips. Stephen A., in my opinion, has become the appointment television for ESPN in 2020, and even prior to this.

John Darsie: (30:39)
I want to build on that conversation about social justice issues a little bit and LeBron James. I always find that amusing that sometimes the hate that's directed at him for certain things that he does and people accuse him of being inauthentic. But I think as much as anyone, he's given other athletes the courage. You had people like Colin Kaepernick who stepped forward as well, but given players the courage to really make social justice a big part of their identity. Do you think that we're at a tipping point in our society today? And do you think athletes have led us to that tipping point where we're really going to see some of these social justice and racial justice issues start to turn and reach a more equitable society?

Stephen A. Smith: (31:19)
Well, my direct answer to that question is that we better be making the turn. We better be moving in that direction. Because if not, athletes today are more empowered than ever before. And as a result, there's going to be a hefty price paid by corporate America and beyond, make no mistake about it. What a lot of folks don't realize is that they keep forgetting the communities these guys come from. You might become rich and famous. You might become wealthy, but to a modern day athlete in particular, you never forget home. Because if you do, they may not forget about you, but you'll be a pariah. And nobody wants to feel like a pariah from their own hometown. You just don't want that. And when I say hometown, I'm talking about the streets that you come from, it could be inner city streets across the United States of America.

Stephen A. Smith: (32:07)
On many occasions, I've often told white bosses this, white folks come to work with a job to do every day. Black folks come with a responsibility. When Trayvon Martin got hot by George Zimmerman, the black community looked at me and said, "Stephen A., you got to talk about this. Stephen A., you got to say this. You got to say that." Now, I never feel compelled to say what anyone wants me to say. I say what the hell I want to say, what I feel, but I do feel compelled to make sure their voices are heard. I do feel compelled to make sure that whatever message the collective whole of our community has that they want disseminated. That I make sure that I express that and disseminate that to the masses. So the masses will know.

Stephen A. Smith: (32:51)
I feel no obligation to agree with it or disagree with it, but I do feel an obligation to make sure that people from our community are heard. And I think if I feel that way, imagine how some of these athletes feel. Now they're not on national TV every day, and I get that, but they do have social media accounts, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook in the millions, in some cases, the tens of millions, in some cases, over a hundred million. And so their reach is incredibly extensive. When you combine that with the wealth that they have at their disposal or rather, I like to say rich, because to me, wealth and riches is two different things, but these guys are rich. And so they've got enough cache, enough muscle in the public eye to really, really make some noise and resonate in a very, very profound fashion.

Stephen A. Smith: (33:38)
I would caution corporate America to make sure they hear that loud and clear and they operate accordingly. Because one thing is absolutely positively true, the days of these dudes being timid and shy and apprehensive have rapidly come to an end, at least for some of them. Too much influence in social media and beyond, too much influence with the younger generation is what they have to sit idly by and ignore some of the transgressions that have taken place in our society. That's what they were doing this summer. That's what they were doing since COVID took place. That's what they were doing since George Floyd got killed and what have you. And I don't anticipate that that's going to stop. If they're able to look at America and say, you haven't changed one bit, you're the same damn way you've always been. If America elects to be that way, there's going to be a problem.

John Darsie: (34:32)
Yeah, we've had really successful prominent African-American business people on this program. And we've heard them talk about how they don't always love having to speak up about these types of issues. Throughout their career, they attribute some of their success to just blending in and not having to consider themselves different than everybody else, but today they have no choice. They feel like, you know what? I have to lift up my brothers and sisters and I have to speak out and I have to be active on these issues because I have no choice.

Stephen A. Smith: (35:03)
It's important that everybody also understands why. It's not just because of that, it's because the choice of being quiet no longer exist. That's the real issue here. So because you are now compelled to speak up, that means you have to take a side. Now, you can take the side [inaudible 00:35:25], or you could take the side of your community and speak up and speak out about issues relevant to your community. These athletes find themselves in that untenable position and they have no choice, but to embrace it, some love it because they love having a voice. And they finally get an opportunity to express themselves knowing millions are going to hear them. Some are very reluctant to do it because they know how they feel is going to cost them in some capacity, either in corporate America or it's going to cost them a price with their own community.

John Darsie: (35:57)
Right. I want to shift gears a little bit to talk about sort of the business of sports and the business of sports media. Disney just announced they're giving you another show on their ESPN+ streaming service. We're seeing this massive movement towards streaming. You have Netflix that's disrupted the entire entertainment industry. Warner Media announced they're going to start simulcasting their movies on HBO Max. Disney+ has obviously been a great success at your parent company. How do you think we're going to continue to see sports media evolve in a world where media rights are so valuable and expensive and so entertaining people in different ways on different platforms is going to be so important.

Stephen A. Smith: (36:36)
Well, I think you're going to see cable suffer to a degree because outside of live events, why not go direct to streaming? Why not go direct to consumer? It's a more feasible and profitable way it appears to go about doing your business. When you have to pay cable operators and things of that nature, that's going to compromise your bottom line to some degree, which is why I think you've seen layoffs across the board everywhere.

Stephen A. Smith: (36:57)
As it pertains to me, my show is going to be called Stephen A's World. It's going to be the lighter version. I'm going to be looking to have fun and make people laugh and enjoy themselves and have a good time because we all know I'll bring the heat on ESPN, whether it's on SportsCenter, whether it's on First Take, whether it's when I'm hosting my own NBA show that Stephen A. is going to always be there. But there is a lighter, more fun side to me, sort of that late night feel because my ultimate aspiration is to actually own the late night show. The way Arsenio Hall and Jay Leno and David Letterman and guys like that ones did.

Stephen A. Smith: (37:29)
My ultimate aspiration is to actually do that one day. So that's an aspiration that I have. And I think that this is going to go in the direction of showing my willingness and hopefully my ability to do such a thing. But again, to answer the question directly, when you see these athletes getting involved, athletes are exploring the business side of things. They understand content a little bit better than they've been given credit for because they bend the content providers, not just because of their plate on the court or field of play, but the interviews that they've done, the statements that they've made, the way that they've resonated in social media and beyond. The means that they've seen put out there in social media and what have you.

Stephen A. Smith: (38:10)
It gives you the impression that you might have an elevated level of knowledge when it comes to content providing. And as a result, it makes you gung ho about sticking your fingers into that bowl to sort of see where that will take you, because we all know that no matter what people make in front of the camera, there's always people making a lot more that are behind the camera. And so these guys see those kinds of things transpire. You also have to take into account, the individuals that they run into. Go to a Lakers game, you'll see folks from Disney, you'll see folks from Fox and other networks. You'll see directors, producers in Hollywood and beyond. When these folks go about the business of ingratiating themselves with you and allowing you to do the same and you make those kind of connections. And then you see the kind of things that they want to do in the world of television streaming and beyond.

Stephen A. Smith: (39:03)
As it pertains to content, it gets you excited about the possibilities of what you might be able to do if you were so lucky to be afforded such an opportunity. So those kinds of things, these players are thinking about because they want a stream of revenue. Remember, our careers going on. I'm 53. And as far as I'm concerned, I'm literally barely in my prime. I got about 15, 20 years left in this business as far as I'm concerned. You guys, the same thing. These players, most guys careers are over by 30. They're lucky enough, some at 35, some football players, the Tom Bradys of the world, Drew Brees of the world are very fortunate to be in their forties.

Stephen A. Smith: (39:45)
Well, what the hell are you going to do with the rest of your life? You start thinking about those things. And that's why they venture into this business realm to the degree that they're doing so. Because they're looking for an outlet, they don't have to step away. From the cheers, the adulation and all of these other things to being obsolete. They want to play different roles. They don't mind stepping away from the cheer, the crowd, but they don't want to step from stardom to be an obsolete. That's a bit too extreme for them in the stomach. And as a result, that's why they are hungry to do things in this business. And I don't blame them.

John Darsie: (40:19)
All right. Switching gears again, I want to talk about leadership a little bit. I'm a native North Carolinian, but you're a New Yorker. Anthony's a New Yorker. You guys have suffered through many decades of subpar performance from your professional sports franchises. I'll leave it there. It brings me to a question. We have a lot of corporate executives that tune into SALT Talks and so relating business leadership and sports leadership and sports business leadership, what in your observation, viewing up close the dysfunction of some of the New York franchises and also having relationships with the very successful franchise owners and leadership and those organizations, what are the characteristics of a good and bad franchise in sports?

Stephen A. Smith: (41:03)
Well, first of all, the bad characteristics are people that hate working for you, for a multitude of reasons. You cut corners. You take shortcuts. Winning is not your top priority. Mediocrity is not something that you appear to have a problem with. Those kinds of things definitely give you a sour taste in your mouth if you're a professional sports team, a professional athlete, or what have you. You really don't want to have much to do with that. Those that have winning situations, yeah, it's associated with excellence, but it involves the excellence of the culture as opposed to the bottom line.

Stephen A. Smith: (41:42)
If you're a performer, what you want to do is look at your superiors and say, "I have everything I need to win. It's on me." You're not running from the challenge of it being placed on your shoulders. You're despondent in fact, when you're in an environment that you don't deem to be conducive to winning. It's an incredibly, incredibly tough situation to be in when you know that you could be doing better and your product could be doing better, but the decisions by the higher ups is what's holding you back. Because when you see something like that happen, you don't want to hear them talk to you about winning because you know that they could snap their fingers and make decisions that are conducive to winning, and they just refuse to do it. And so as a result of that, that's certainly not a winning formula. That's something to take into consideration.

Stephen A. Smith: (42:31)
But what a winning formula is, particularly as it pertains to bosses, inspiring people to want to work for you, to want to work with you. Being committed to excellence, showing them that it's not just about your excellence, it's about theirs as well, and how we all rise together. Magic Johnson was famous by telling his teammates, man, we all should. "You could see me on the commercial doing something for Converse or McDonald's or something like that, but trust me, endorsement deals are going to come your way. Popularity is going to come your way, the perks and the cache that comes associated with success and winning they're going to come your way."

Stephen A. Smith: (43:09)
And he was unapologetic about it. And he was very sincere and projecting that kind of imagery and it came to fruition. They saw that he was right and then inspired them to perform with him and for him even more. When you look at Pat Riley and South Beach with the Miami Heat, well, he's got rings. LeBron James wants to depart from Cleveland and he comes to Miami. And even though he had already talked with Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh about joining forces, when he sat down with the Miami Heat and everybody had presentation and films and all of these other things to appeal to LeBron James, Pat Riley, sat in front of him and put down five rings and said, "Do you want one of these? Yes or no?" And that's what it took.

Stephen A. Smith: (43:54)
We taught that to the business world. Larry Bird's got a group of 13 other people, and they're trying to buy the Charlotte Basketball franchise at the time. The asking price is $300 million. And Larry Bird's group has about 250, 260, they're about 40 million short, but he's Larry Bird. And they want to give them time to get the assets necessary in order to buy the franchise, et cetera, et cetera. All of this stuff is being talked about. But Bob Johnson, former owner for BET knows Jerry Colangelo. Both of them went to the University of Illinois. There was a connection there. What happens, Jerry Colangelo, owner for the Phoenix Suns at the time, he's got an in with the NBA owners because he's been associated with the NBA since the sixties. So he gets Bob Johnson to the negotiating table.

Stephen A. Smith: (44:46)
And Bob Johnson sits at the negotiating table and tells these board of governors, which consist of each owner for the team or the chief executive they choose to appear as their board of governor. And he shows up and he said, "I appreciate the greatness of Larry Bird. He's done a lot for the NBA. Very, very special. But last time I checked, this was a business deal. And here is my financial portfolio." And his financial portfolio was worth $1.7 billion. And the next words out of his mouth was, "Who do I cut the check to?"

Stephen A. Smith: (45:20)
We have to understand, it's networking. It's connections. It's all of that stuff too. But at the end of the day, what's the rule of the game that you're playing. He knew the rules and it was finances. Pat Riley knew the rules, it was rings. Magic Johnson knew the rules, it was competing for and putting yourself in a position to win championships. And they made sure to articulate and aluminate that agenda for all to see. Showing that it wasn't just a benefit to them, but to the very people they were trying to appeal to. And as a result, everybody bought in because of it. And that's why they are who they are, and most of us aspire to be who they are.

John Darsie: (46:05)
And Bob Johnson proceeded to name the team after himself, the Bobcat's and then we [crosstalk 00:46:14]. And then we flipped it to our good friend, Michael Jordan, who I still think Michael is going to turn it around. He's a North Carolina guy like me.

Stephen A. Smith: (46:18)
I hope so. He's a friend.

John Darsie: (46:21)
So last question, we can't let the preeminent NBA analyst in the world leave without giving some predictions for the season that starting next week. Who do you think wins the NBA championship this year? Lakers are going to repeat? [crosstalk 00:46:35].

Stephen A. Smith: (46:35)
You had a champion and you had the best off season. And that off season, Dennis Schröder and Marc Gasol and Montrezl Harrell. I mean, my goodness, they had the best off season.

John Darsie: (46:50)
Horton-Tucker looks like a player.

Stephen A. Smith: (46:52)
Yeah, he does.

John Darsie: (46:53)
So what are some teams and players that may be not on the mainstream radar or people that follow the NBA less closely that you think are going to take a big step forward this season?

Stephen A. Smith: (47:03)
Listen, in the Western Conference, the elite teams are the Lakers, the Clippers, the Dallas Mavericks. They definitely stand out. There's no question about that. Houston is taking a step back because Russell Westbrook is gone. James Harden doesn't want to be there. A trade seems eminent at some point. So they're not going to be the same, but in terms of an up and coming team, look out for the Phoenix Suns, Devin Booker is a star. You've got Deandre Ayton and others that can play on this squad. There's something special. Don't ignore them. Chris Paul is there now as well. So we can't ignore that.

Stephen A. Smith: (47:39)
You got to pay attention to the Warriors. I know Klay Thompson is out for the year, but Steph Curry has returned. They drafted this kid, James Wiseman and number two out of Memphis, even though he only played about three games. They still have some of the pieces. They picked up Kelly Oubre. They've got Andrew Wiggins. This kid Paschall that was on a bench and averaging 14 a game last year. He's going to play an integral role as well. When you consider that, they should be a playoff team. And when you consider once that Klay Thompson gets back, not this upcoming season, but next year, they might be right back in the championship picture.

Stephen A. Smith: (48:14)
When you look at Portland, they picked up Robert Covington to pair with CJ McCollum and Damian Lillard and those boys. You can't ignore them either. As the Western Conference, I would say Phoenix to answer your question directly. In the East, you've got Philly, Boston, Toronto, Miami and Milwaukee, especially with the Greek Freak agreeing up for the five years, $228 million for the-

John Darsie: (48:33)
Were you surprised about that? Were you surprised about him re-upping?

Stephen A. Smith: (48:34)
I was a little surprised because I thought that he would weigh his options. I thought that Pat Riley in South Beach would have a chance, but if you saw the documentary on him and his family, how poor he was, how much they struggled and starved and what have you, to be embraced by the Milwaukee community the way that he was, for the organization to do things for his family, like his brother is on the roster for crying out loud, no disrespect for his brother, but there's no way in hell his brother would be on an NBA roster if it were not for him, but that's the case. They took care of him in every way. And so they appealed to him in a way that said, hey, you know what? He's like, I'm in a great, great situation. They love me. So I'm going to stick with that.

Stephen A. Smith: (49:20)
I look at those teams and Milwaukee, anybody can come out from those teams, Milwaukee, Boston, Miami, affiliate of four. We'll see about Boston even though I love Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown, I question their depth. But the team that I'm looking at right now is Atlanta in terms of what could end up happening to them. I mean, this was a horrible team last year, but Trey Young could really, really play. They've got some other pieces. They just added Rondo to their squad as well, who's a guy that knows how to run a basketball team. And so you got to keep your eyes on one of those up and coming teams. Not that they're going to win the championship or anything like that, but that they could make things interesting than it once was.

Anthony Scaramucci: (50:01)
We knew the kid was going to get signed because we had Mark Lasry, the owner of the Milwaukee Bucks on a SALT Talk. And you could tell from the way he answered that question, he wasn't letting that kid out of Milwaukee.

Stephen A. Smith: (50:13)
Right. Well listen, all you can do is offer them all the money in the world, but it's up to them to take it or not. In the case of Kevin Durant, he turned it down. In the case of LeBron James, he turned it down. In the case of Anthony Davis, he turned it down. So it wasn't a matter of the money because you knew that they were going to offer him the max. It was just about what he wanted to do, but he said it best. He said, they embraced me when no one else would. They were looking at me, they saw this kid out of Greece. You got to remember the Greek Freak, he's gained 57 pounds of muscle since he arrived in the NBA. He's a freak of nature that ... No one saw that coming. No one saw that coming.

Anthony Scaramucci: (50:53)
Stephen, see if you can get me introduced to his trainer, can you help me with that? Because I need 57 pounds of muscle.

Stephen A. Smith: (51:00)
I don't think any of us need 57 pounds of muscle at this age, but I will tell you this, I can use some of those muscles. Ain't no doubt about that. I can still use a stamina. I can tell you that.

Anthony Scaramucci: (51:09)
Tough kid. Well, you've been absolutely terrific. Thank you so much for joining us on SALT Talks. I wish you and your family an amazing Christmas holiday and great New Year's. Hopefully we'll get you back. We got a lot to talk about. We could have 20 SALT Talks with you, Stephen A.

Stephen A. Smith: (51:27)
Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. And if you don't mind me giving myself a plug, remember Stephen A's World debuts on ESPN+ January 11th, Monday, January 11th. I'll be on every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday, because I'll still be doing my NBA show on Wednesday.

Anthony Scaramucci: (51:45)
Twitter handle? What's your Twitter handle?

Stephen A. Smith: (51:47)
Oh, @stephenasmith.

Anthony Scaramucci: (51:47)
All right.

Stephen A. Smith: (51:47)
All right.

John Darsie: (51:47)
Stephen A's World, go out and get that Disney bundle. I have three young kids, Disney+ is a hit in my household. I got my ESPN+ for when they go to bed and I can consume some sports content and you also get Hulu is the best deal in the world. And now let's make Steven's parent company happy. Go and get that Disney bundle and watch Steven A's World on ESPN+ starting January 11th.

Stephen A. Smith: (52:13)
Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Oh, by the way, I want to say this to y'all too. Not only am I hosting it, I'm the executive producer of it. And my production company is co-producing it, Mr. SAS Productions. So I'm the executive producer, the host and co-producing it as a company. I'm stepping into your world, Anthony, I'm trying to learn from you now.

Anthony Scaramucci: (52:33)
Now, I know it's going to be super successful. I knew it before that, but now I triple know it.

Stephen A. Smith: (52:36)
I'm glad, man.

Anthony Scaramucci: (52:38)
Well, you be well. God blessed you, mam. Hopefully we can get you to one of our live events before too long.

Stephen A. Smith: (52:42)
Absolutely. Looking forward to it. God bless and happy holidays to y'all.

Anthony Scaramucci: (52:45)
You too, brother. Thank you.

Kurt Andersen: Author "Evil Geniuses: The Unmaking of America" | SALT Talks #76

“Technology changed the nature of economies and all the rich world. But in the US, we did this different thing of saying, no, all boats are not going to rise anymore.”

Kurt Andersen is the bestselling author of the novels Heyday, Turn of the Century, and True Believers. He contributes to Vanity Fair and The New York Times and was the host and co-creator of Studio 360, the Peabody Award–winning public radio show and podcast. He also writes for television, film, and the stage. Andersen co-founded Spy magazine, served as editor in chief of New York, and was a cultural columnist and critic for Time and The New Yorker. He graduated magna cum laude from Harvard College.

In the 1970s, a subtle yet radical shift took place in American politics that culminated in Reagan’s election. A pro-business vision of the economy displaced the working class policies of FDR’s New Deal. This set the stage for the next 30-40 years of policy consensus that ultimately drove the economic inequality we see today. “I was a little oblivious to and indifferent to the systemic change in the economy that had happened around it, starting in the seventies… I didn't realize until I went back and did the research how that had been not the beginning, but the end of a decade of strategic work of CEOs and rich billionaires and libertarians.”

While the middle class initially shared in prosperity, major advancements in technology and globalization exposed the systemic inequity. This has given rise to many of the cultural and political divisions we see today.

LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE

SPEAKER

Kurt Andersen.jpeg

Kurt Andersen

Author

Evil Geniuses

MODERATOR

anthony_scaramucci.jpeg

Anthony Scaramucci

Founder & Managing Partner

SkyBridge

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

John Darsie: (00:07)
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is John Darcy. I'm the managing director of SALT, which is a global thought leadership forum at the intersection of finance, technology and public policy. And we're very sorry for the late start today, a little bit of miscommunication on the timing, but our guest today is worth the wait. It should be a fascinating conversation about his recent book and observations about things that are going on in the country. But SALT Talks are a digital interview series that we launched during this work from home period. They are interviews with leading investors, creators, and thinkers. What we're really trying to do is replicate the experience that we provide at our global conference series, the SALT conference. And that's to provide a window into the mind of subject matter experts for our audience, as well as to provide a platform for what we think are big ideas that are shaping the future.

John Darsie: (00:54)
And we're very excited today to welcome Kurt Andersen to SALT Talks. Kurt is the best-selling author of a number of books, including several novels, as well as non-fiction books. Among his novels are Heyday, Turn of the Century and True Believers and his most recent nonfiction book, which we're going to talk about a lot today is called Evil Geniuses, The Unmaking of America. He contributes to the Vanity Fair and New York Times and was the host and co-creator of Studio 360, the Peabody award winning public radio show and podcast. He also writes for television, film and stage. He also co-founded Spy magazine and served as editor-in-chief of New York and was a cultural columnist and critic for Time and The New Yorker. A reminder, if you have any questions for Kurt during today's SALT Talk, you can enter them in the Q&A box at the bottom of your video screen. And now we'll turn it over to Anthony Scaramucci, who's the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge Capital, a global alternative investment firm, as well as the chairman of SALT to conduct today's interview. Take it away, Anthony.

Anthony Scaramucci: (01:56)
Well, first of all, Kurt, thank you so much for joining us. I loved your book. Before we go into the book though, I want to talk a little bit about your professional background, your personal background. It's a little cliche, but I ask everybody this. And I always learn something. As an example, yesterday or two days ago, John Brennan, the CIA director, he told us that he wanted to be the first American Pope and that his name that he had designated for himself when he was 14 was Owen the first, which was his family's, his mom's maiden name. So, I thought there's no way we're going to find that out Kurt on Wikipedia. So tell us something about your life that sort of triggered you to go in the direction that you went in with your career or something fun about you that we couldn't find on the web.

Kurt Andersen: (02:44)
Well, I really started doing what I was doing as a junior high school student in Omaha, Nebraska. I got a job on the student newspaper, Arbor Heights Junior High School. And started I guess being a journalist of sort, but really writing satire. That was my first quasi-professional writing experience and I loved it and they let me keep doing it, they let me get away with it through high school as well. And then I went to Harvard and was on The Harvard Lampoon there, that you could find on Wikipedia. But really even though I had done legit journalism and I write novels and history books, really having that founding self-tutorial in making mischief, I guess was the beginning of my writing life.

Anthony Scaramucci: (03:44)
And you were also one of the founding editors of Spy magazine with Graydon Carter. And so I want to go back to that moment in time. It was the roaring eighties. I was a prolific reader of Spy magazine as was everybody that lived here in New York. And you had Donald Trump on the cover once in a while but really what as [crosstalk 00:04:09]?

Kurt Andersen: (04:04)
We did have him on our cover once a while. In fact our first issue of Spy Magazine in October of 1986, the cover story, it was called Jerks, the 10 most annoying New Yorkers, of whom Donald Trump was one of them. And in his little write-up we did on him among the 10, he was just one of 10 at that point. He was saying that he could solve the nuclear missile issue with the Soviet Union. Just send him over there, he could learn everything he needed to know in an hour about nuclear missiles was his quote in the first issue of Spy Magazine. So yeah, we kept at him, investigated his bankruptcies and his bullying and all that he was then and remains.

Anthony Scaramucci: (04:46)
Who was the number one jerk? Did you have a ranking or did you or did you have to [inaudible 00:04:49]?

Kurt Andersen: (04:49)
No, I mean, ranking is the kind of thing we did. We didn't do it in that case. So he was just one of 10 along with Leona Helmsley and a lot of others.

Anthony Scaramucci: (04:57)
Okay. Yeah. Well, there you go. Well, you're really going back. All right. Well, let's turn our attention to your book, Evil Geniuses, The Unmaking of America. And basically for our viewers that haven't listened to read the book or listen to it on audible, it's a fascinating discussion about the US economic system and how it unfortunately was re-engineered, let's call it about 40 years ago to benefit elites. And so we had something going on and I don't know if you've read American Amnesia that was written about in 2016, if you haven't, I'll send you a copy of it.

Anthony Scaramucci: (05:33)
It basically said that we had this pretty good intersection between our government helping middle and lower middle income people through government activism and programs. And we had a pretty robust capitalist story going on in conjunction with that. We seem to have jettisoned one part of that about 40 years ago. We'll call it the Reagan revolution and now as a result of which income divide is widening even deeper. I'd like you to address that for our listeners. Explain why you wrote the book, explain what you have seen in our Zeitgeists economically over the last 40 years.

Kurt Andersen: (06:10)
Yeah, I'd taken a pause from writing novels to write this previous book called Fantansyland. That was about what I noticed really in this century, right? In the last 15 or 20 years. Which is to say how the belief in the untrue of all sorts. Believe whatever you want had gotten out of control in this country. And so that book was an attempt to figure out how that had happened. And I figured out that it was a really deep in our bloodstream, but it was under control. It was an okay balance for a few hundred years, right? Because the grownups when pushed came to shove were in charge. But then I realized as that book came out and I went out and talked about it, that that was really only half the story. That this inequality and economic insecurity and the sense of hopelessness and less upward mobility, all that economic stuff was the other half of how we got into the ditch or the ditches we're in.

Kurt Andersen: (07:12)
And how did that happen? And I realized because I was doing pretty well in the '80s and '90s as a journalist, as a magazine editor, as an entrepreneur, as all kinds of things. And which while I was voting democratic and I consider myself a liberal, I was a little oblivious to and indifferent to the systemic change in the economy that had happened around it, starting in the seventies, really. And in this evil geniuses, I traced back to how yeah, Reagan got elected and wow, that's new and taxes on the well-to-do were cut in half or more as they were on big business.

Kurt Andersen: (07:52)
That's a big deal. But I didn't realize until I went back and did the research how that had been not the beginning, but the end of a decade of strategic work of CEOs and rich billionaires and libertarians, and all these different people working in all these different ways to do what they did as, as you say it. To re-engineer the system, to hijack the system really, and to change it from this great kind of post new deal America that had worked for everybody, the rich got rich, the middle class got more prosperous.

Kurt Andersen: (08:28)
The working class were doing okay. This system was working, all the boats were rising economically pretty well together. And then it changed. And what I realized too, during the research for this book is that inequality increased elsewhere, right? Globalization happened everywhere. Technology changed the nature of economies and all the rich world. But in the US, we did this different thing of, of saying, no, all boats are not going to rise anymore. Your boats, you, 80% of less wealthy people are just not going to rise any more. Your incomes and your household wealth is not going to increase. And that didn't just happen by accident. It happened by a whole series of regulatory changes, changes in thinking, changes in norms, changes in law, changes in taxes that have left 80% of us, not better off than we were 40 years ago.

Anthony Scaramucci: (09:24)
And it's a brilliant exposition. In addition, where you're saying right now, what you write in the book, you really lay out what happened in the convergence of a lot of special interests that sort of allowed for this outcome to happen. I was dying to ask you this when I was reading your book. So now I've got the opportunity to ask it to you here. Isn't it the fault of the politicians though? Isn't it the fault of our public servants in a sense that they almost abided to special interests through the political lobbying, the payments, the junket, the packs that were formed to help them stay in power. And they sort of lost that, no bleach obliged, if you will, or that understanding that they were there to serve the American people, which included all of the American people, not just necessarily the people that were donating to them?

Kurt Andersen: (10:12)
Certainly, they have their large share of the blame along with, and the Democratic politicians do as well as the Republican politicians who were more unapologetically and shamelessly devoted to this change. But there's plenty of blame to go around. But what and it's easy to blame politicians. We're used to blaming politicians and they're are political figures who are among my Evil Geniuses, but I think it's important to look at the whole realm of people, including CEOs, including intellectuals, including people in the media who did all that they had to do in various ways or failed to do what they had to do in the case of Democrats, I would say, to stand up and say, "No, this is a raw deal. This is no longer the new deal."

Kurt Andersen: (11:09)
So, but yeah. But I think as I try to lay out in the book in so many ways, the Zeitgeist, the set of norms about what was fair, really just what was fair, were being changed on so many fronts. And so partly out of earnestness, Neo-liberal Democrats said, "Yeah, maybe we should go halfway. Maybe we're off the free market it's pretty good." And then basically lost their distinct vision of this sense of fairness and went along with the crushing of labor unions and went along with the end essentially of overtime pay, went along with reducing the minimum wage, all those things. And pretty soon, since there were no actual liberal Republicans anymore, there were the Democrats on economics took the place of liberal Republicans. Everybody was a Republican. The Democrats were just a little softer.

Anthony Scaramucci: (12:09)
It's very compelling stuff. You wrote about technology in the book about how it's exacerbated inequality created more insecurity. I'd like you to address that, but then also, how can technology fix some of this inequality as well? It's sort of an interesting thing. It's hurt us in one way, but it may be able to help us. You explain it. I'd like you to articulate it here.

Kurt Andersen: (12:31)
Right. Well, I mean, my first couple of chapters are a quick history of modern capitalism, of America, and of technology and how technology has been key to prosperity again and again and again. But technology can be good. It can be bad. It can make nuclear weapons, it can make nuclear power. It can make life easier, or it can make slavery worse through the cotton shin. It's the choices, it's the political public social choices that are made about how to use it. So technology, we moved from farms to factories, from factories to offices, technological change, good, use it well. We have this whole set of balancing mechanisms through government, through citizens organizations, through unions, all the rest. There needs to be this balanced system. In the 1970s and '80s we lost that balance. So it became simply fine for companies to lay off as many people as they could constantly as a way to do business, right? So sooner or later that catches up with you as it has caught up with us, there aren't enough decent paying jobs for human beings.

Kurt Andersen: (13:50)
And that is going to become a bigger and bigger problem as AI kicks into gear and makes fewer and fewer jobs necessary. How do you deal with that? So we can have a future that is more like a utopia frankly, where machines do all the work, but we got to figure out how to then share that bounty. And it's not just... It can't all go to Mark Zuckerberg and the investor class. I mean, we all did it together. By the way, as you know I talked about in the book how the United States government was key, is key to building doing all, making all kinds of businesses happen, including the internet and all of its businesses.

Anthony Scaramucci: (14:34)
Absolutely.

Kurt Andersen: (14:34)
Do we as citizens, taxpayers get anything out of that? We do not. So there is a social wealth that has been created that with all, with nanotechnology, with AI, all that. It can get even more fantastically prosperous, but it's not going to work if just the rich are getting richer. And just the people who own the machines and the AI are benefiting.

Anthony Scaramucci: (15:01)
Well, we're in agreement. There is another famous author, Malcolm Gladwell once wrote, I think it was in one of his piece. I didn't remember seeing it in his book, but he said that he felt that this proliferation of greed at the corporate level started with baseball free agency in 1974. He attributed it to Curt Flood. And he basically said, what happened was Curt Flood got his free agency. The court said he could be a free agent. Then you had the rise of Reggie Jackson. And Reggie is a friend of mine. He always will mention that he got a five-year deal, which was $600,000 a year. At the time it was a stupendous contract. And obviously you have Pat Mahomes now getting a half a billion dollar deal from the Kansas city chiefs.

Anthony Scaramucci: (15:47)
And Malcolm's point was once the sports athletes could make $25, $50 million a year, American CEO said, "Well, wait a minute, I'm doing a way harder job than them. What am I chopped liver?" They went to their boards and said, "Pay me more money." And you saw this whole proliferation. And so I guess the question I have is what is the counter dote to that? What could happen in the society to make people recognize, well, wait a minute, you got to look out for the little guy. Or wait a minute your compensation on a multiple of your poorest employee is just too high. And I know we want to compete for art at Sotheby's and have a big aircraft, but you may want to take care of these people, because if your neighbor's doing better, there'll be less social unrest. There's a public good to that for your family as well.

Kurt Andersen: (16:38)
100%. Well. So a lot of things have to happen. And one of the bits of the pieces of hopefulness that I take from this book and doing the work is that it changed, right? We had this new deal all in the same boat sense of common good even as the rich got rich. And we've always had an unequal society economically, and no doubt always will. But it's question of extremes and how ostentatious one feels no shame about being, in having and showing off wealth while most people have had no income increases, can't afford college and all the rest. So there's the, are we good people? Are we fair people or is greed good and profits all that matter? That's the question. That was changed 40 and 50 years ago. It can be changed again in through various ways.

Kurt Andersen: (17:33)
And to your point about the CEOs and earning multiples of their average workers, that wasn't a law. It just was the norm that for decades and decades the average CEO got 50 or 60 times the pay of his average worker. And that was a lot of money. Then it okay, fine. The '80S it goes up to a hundred times. But then in the '90S to 300, 400, 500, a thousand times as much money. Tell me that's fair. And, and, and, and it wasn't just the market working its way as we know. And as I discovered, really when I did the work and talk to people in finance and journalists and authors in finance that the pay that CEOs get is not some kind of free market. It is this clubby cabal that decides, as you say, because Curt Flood or Reggie Jackson are getting what they're paying like, "Hey, why aren't I getting paid this money?"

Kurt Andersen: (18:34)
So, how do you fix that? By preaching the injustice and fairness. But I also think just as Franklin Roosevelt, 75 years ago, understood, wait, rich guys like me and us, this system, this golden goose, isn't going to keep laying golden eggs for us. If the people in the Keynesian way aren't buying stuff to make it all work, right? The system needs a prosperous middle class to work. And I'm afraid that not only has the way we've changed the system 40 years not doing that, it's just going to get worse as more and more jobs become automated.

Anthony Scaramucci: (19:17)
Yeah. And I've made this case. I think you and I share our level of moderation. I have made the case of my friends. Well, you want to live in a barbed wired security compound in your McMansion while your fellow neighbor's suffering or do you want to figure out a way to help people stem the inequality this way they don't come after you with a pitch fork or a Tiki torch at some point, which will happen because it has happened throughout civilization. So we'll turn it over to audience producer. We're getting a lot of audience questions.

Anthony Scaramucci: (19:49)
But I have just two more questions for you. And they're tied to your other books, because you seem to have a knack for seeing things before other people see them and a knack for understanding what's going on. And so you wrote a best seller in the year, 2000, it's called The Turn of the Century. And for some reason before the iPhone and Facebook Kurt, you predicted what America was going to look like in 2020, you captured a lot of elements of our media, a lot of elements of what it would take to be successful in politics in terms of bombast and over-exaggeration. Tell us how you did that. Tell us what you saw back then and why did it come true? And what do you see over the next 20 years?

Kurt Andersen: (20:34)
Well, that was my first novel actually came out in 1999. And I've looked back at it fairly recently, and I Pat myself on my back because it didn't see the future in some ways pretty clearly. I don't know, in that case, because it wasn't a nonfiction book and I hadn't written a big nonfiction book, although I'd been a magazine writer and a magazine editor. I think because it was fiction and this near future fiction, it allowed me to sort of tune into my instincts and intuitions in a way that if I were writing a serious piece of journalism, I wouldn't have allowed myself to do. So, it was this funny, it was this interesting time where again, I saw things happening. I saw how in a way that hadn't been true in my younger life how money was everything and how this blurring of distinctions between fiction and reality was just becoming a real problem and on and on.

Kurt Andersen: (21:39)
So I was able to piece it together, I think in fiction by depicting again, the present and near future in a way that writing speculative fiction allowed me to do. Then I think with this last big nonfiction book Fantasyland, and then with The Evil Geniuses as well, I really took what I learned to some degree as a novelist, through telling stories and seeing the big picture rather, and focusing on small facts and details and figures as well, but seeing the big picture in a novelistic way that I hope I bring to these nonfiction histories as well.

Anthony Scaramucci: (22:22)
Well, in Fantasyland, you wrote that in another best seller, you wrote that into 2017. You said something fascinating about America. You said that the society has a peculiar susceptibility to falsehoods and allusions. Tell us why you feel that way? It's obviously true. I just want to understand why [crosstalk 00:22:42]?

Kurt Andersen: (22:41)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, see, I didn't know. Again, both of these books begin with a question of like Evil Geniuses, how did things get so screwed up and insecure and unfair economically? And that one was, how did that happen and how old the thing was that? And so I just began some years of research and it really is, it's not unique to America, but it is so definingly present in America. It is so deeply part of our character I realized when it wasn't just a thing that had happened since the internet.

Kurt Andersen: (23:12)
At first, I thought, "Oh, maybe it's the internet helped that. And it certainly God knows then." And I thought, "Oh, it's the late '60s and '70s where everybody could do their own thing and find their own truth. And yap, that's part of it too. But then I just kept tracing the threads back in time and saw that literally from the first European settlers where they were coming here, because it was going to be the new Jerusalem and or they were going to find gold in the dirt in Virginia. Again, it was neither of those turned out to be true, but the Americans self-selected to believe that. American self-selected to believe in advertising. Right? Okay.

Kurt Andersen: (23:53)
The first big mobile advertising campaign was to get settlers to come to these money-making colonies and downplay the harsh realities of that. And because we are, and always were such a uniquely religious place, that in its extreme forms also led us to believe things that aren't necessarily true. Our knack for entertainment. And then as entertainment become more and more extraordinary and Hollywood and movies and television, again that helped blur this, this our sense of I think the real and the fictional in a way that isn't unique to Americans, but my God is part of our defining quality.

Kurt Andersen: (24:41)
So on and on and on grownups, it was a thing in balance and the serious people and experts and people knew what they were doing were still in charge. And then that establishment control started in all kinds of ways, started going out of control in the 1970s. And Fantasyland, I finished before Donald Trump was nominated for president. It came out right after he was elected president, and he wouldn't have been in that book, probably. Probably wouldn't have been mentioned if he hadn't run for president. But then just as I'm writing this eccentric history of America, here he comes embodying everything in that book, Fantansyland. And so, one of the small silver linings personally, it was that he illustrated this theory of how America had gone to hell that I wrote without him being even present in the thinking or execution of that book.

Anthony Scaramucci: (25:44)
It's amazing. I'm going to turn it over to John and we've got a ton of audience questions. The book Evil Geniuses, The Unmaking of America. Probably one of the best books I read this summer. I did a lot of reading in the pandemic-

Kurt Andersen: (25:59)
I appreciate that, thank you.

Anthony Scaramucci: (26:01)
Congratulations on the book, but before I turn it over to John, just quickly, what's on your nightstand? What are you reading?

Kurt Andersen: (26:07)
Oh, I am reading, what did I just read a book called Mill Town, about this town in Maine, that, and by working class woman who grew up there and how that town has been effectively torn asunder by the very things I'm talking about. It's sort of a micro version of about Evil Geniuses in that way. That's the book I'm in the middle of. I just started Anne Applebaum's, the Twilight of democracy. So I'm reading happy, uplifting books.

Anthony Scaramucci: (26:41)
If you know Anne, I just finished her book. If you know her, reach out to her for me. I'd love to get her on one of these days. I think she's fascinating. She wrote quite a book. That's a very, I won't ruin the ending there, but it's a great book.

Kurt Andersen: (26:52)
Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci: (26:52)
Okay. John fire out those questions, we've got a ton of audience participation. John is working from the new SALT studio. So he's sparing you his ancestors. He's a big time wasp so he's got, I don't know, white wigged people in his background. So he's sparing you that today. Go ahead.

John Darsie: (27:12)
Ignore his antics Kurt, but you argue in the book that we've gone back to sort of a pre-new deal world order. And that's a theme that we've had a few speakers that have touched upon during SALT Talks. One of which was Daniel Okrent, who wrote The Guarded Gate, which you might've read. So, if we're in a pre-new deal world order, we obviously need a new deal to get us out of it. What in your view does that new deal need to look like if we can get a more progressive president into office? What do we need to do to jumpstart our climb out of the current morose?

Kurt Andersen: (27:47)
And I just want to make the point that it's not, in my view, a world order. We are exceptional in the world in these ways. But so, I've always loved the line history doesn't repeat but it rhymes. And so we can't say, "Oh, we need this thing exactly like we did it in the new deal. And we did this thing exactly like we did in the new deal." But the idea of the new deal, that there's an essential place for the government and society in general to make the free market economy more fair, more legitimate, more trusted, all those things in all kinds of ways, whether it's antitrust enforcement or so forth are important. But 2020 is obviously a very different time than 1932 or 1936.

Kurt Andersen: (28:46)
And not at least in the way that as John Maynard Keynes saw it back in the 1930s. Technology and machines are changing the nature of work in this profound way that I don't think is going to be, it's going to be sort of, it'll just sort itself out like things sorted themselves out during the 20th and 19th centuries during the previous industrial revolutions. So you've got to have things on the table, like a universal basic income. Andrew Yang was never going to be nominated let alone elected president probably, but the fact that he's so intelligently had this particular critique of what was problematic about our economy, which is to say not enough decently paying jobs for enough human beings because of the miracles of technology and how are we going to deal with that. That in all of its... However we do end up dealing with it, needs to be on the table as all kinds of people, Mark Zuckerberg, for instance, and others in Silicon Valley have signed off on.

Kurt Andersen: (29:55)
So that's one way, but first we need to re convince ourselves, relearn the necessity and virtues of having a social understanding that everybody needs to come along if we're going to get to the promised land. And not just because it's good and it's fair and it used to work great and from 1945 to 1980, it worked fantastically. But the system is just not going to work. FDR was called a socialist in 1932 and 1936, and he saved American capitalism from its greed and from its excesses and from its misguidedness. And again, as his cousin Teddy Roosevelt had begun doing the progressive era a generation earlier. So there's lots of ways to do it.

Kurt Andersen: (30:54)
And again, do we need more higher taxes on people like me and probably you and those of us, a lot of people watching? Yes, of course we do. Because we have plenty. And I think if you're a fair-minded person and you're not utterly committed to just me, me, me, me, me about all things economically, people will come to understand that, yeah, this isn't working. And by the way, it works a lot better in all these ways in other countries.

Kurt Andersen: (31:28)
The fact that having universal health care has been made so contentious is also crazy because show me just for starters, show me how it works better here than it does in all these other rich countries. That by the way and one of the things I hated about the democratic primary process and their arguments about healthcare and how it should be dealt with was there isn't just one way that Denmark, Germany, Canada, Australia, France, Japan, all these other countries do it. They do it in a whole bunch of different ways with different versions of private and public but it's universal and nobody goes broke paying for healthcare.

Kurt Andersen: (32:10)
So there's a reason that became the central, how do we fix this mess question in the democratic primaries and in this election? But that is an obvious beginning. But it's all these ways in which just the basic security that people did feel Americans had and felt when I was a kid and my parents felt coming out of the war. We need to figure out ways to restore that in this very new situation with AI and all the, AI and globalization that make all the problems very different than they were 70 years ago.

John Darsie: (32:52)
So do you think, and this is an audience question, do you think the extreme views that we're seeing reflected in our politics today are the results of our leaders driving us in that direction or a reflection of the way our culture has become divided?

Kurt Andersen: (33:08)
It's both, there's a lot of chicken and egg problems in this that I talk about in Evil Geniuses. I think and there are conspiracy theories on both sides. There are extreme views on both sides. Everything is true on both sides, but it's asymmetrical. It's insanely more true on the right. Now, why did that happen? That happened because the rational, smart, evil geniuses in politics and finance and C-suites and the rest understood that to get what they needed to do done in the 1970s and '80s and 90s, they needed to have enough people to get elected. And who are those people going to be? There aren't enough rich people and CEOs to form a party. So you need a bunch of people who are not rational or not educated or not whatever.

Kurt Andersen: (34:10)
And how do you get them? Well, you get them by riling them up and making them afraid of everything and everybody. And that leaves, inevitably has led in this country, which by the way of course has a certain history of toxic racism and bigotry to extreme toxic political feelings. And I think at what may be the end of this long 50-year cycle that came after this other long 50-year new deal cycle, that in the desperation to hold on to power, the right in the form of the Republican party has unleashed the extremism on their side to this horrible and ultimately I believe self destructive. Self-destructive both of the republican party. And if it's allowed to go unchecked America, that this there's self destructive way.

John Darsie: (35:11)
So we have another audience question, I think is interesting. Because you talk about some of these themes in the book. They talk about a book that's titled Fairness and Freedom, and it basically compares the evolution of the United States and New Zealand, which were two open societies that were founded by British colonists. And it basically talks about how New Zealand adopted an approach from an early stage of that country's life around the collective good. Whereas the United States was more about libertarian individualism.

John Darsie: (35:39)
And we've seen those two different approaches achieve success in each country, the United States and our philosophy around individualism has certainly been part of the economic miracle here. But at certain times it's also been a detriment to us. One of which you could talk about is COVID. You see New Zealand has zero cases while the West wing has 37 and counting. So, what do you think has created that environment? Do we need a reset of that brand of individualism that's become a sort of our trademark in the United States? You talk a little bit about how China maintained some of its political system while resetting their economic system as well. So how do we find more of that balance?

Kurt Andersen: (36:21)
Yeah. Well, I do talk about China and what they did in the late '70s. And I think where we are now requires perhaps as significant and radical of a change as they did and it worked out well for them, didn't it? The individualism thing is interesting. That's a real thing, right? That's a real thing in the founding of the United States. And then became this mythologized real thing as well. But we also had this intense sense of community, even back in the 19th century, the height of Cowboys and resettlers and all that kind of mythic individualism. Small towns became this sustaining place where people helped everyone. Then when we got big corporations and bigger population and bigger government, everything else, we used governments, local and federal and used unions and used all these non-individualistic means to balance out the individualism and to make sure that there was a sense of the common good and the common.

Kurt Andersen: (37:37)
So, yes, we have this in our system and it will always affect, and people want to be who they want to be. And that's been great and grand and beautiful in American history. But my argument, my theory of the case is that starting around 1970, that just got out of control. It just got out of control and was privileged over everything else. And for these Milton Friedman Knights who are major part of my Evil Geniuses, they used that to help themselves and kept helping themselves. So, it was always there but it was always there in balance with this sense of we are Americans together. We help each other and all that. And then, I say it's like a chronic condition that sort of was fine. And to be in the bloodstream intellect was allowed to just metastasize out of control, which I think is what's happened.

John Darsie: (38:43)
Well, Kurt, thanks so much for joining us. I think we could talk for three hours. No problem about these themes, because they're the big themes that we're facing as a country today. And hopefully we can have you back on in a few months when maybe the landscape is a little bit different and we can talk about some of these energetic government policies that hopefully can help lift us out of the current predicament. Anthony, you have any final words?

Anthony Scaramucci: (39:04)
I need to know when your next book is Kurt so I can start investing in that direction [crosstalk 00:39:10].

Kurt Andersen: (39:07)
As soon as I know I'll let you know.

Anthony Scaramucci: (39:11)
All right. Well, exactly right. Well, thank you so much, Kurt. We appreciate it. Hopefully we can get you to one of our live events at some point. I think you would enjoy that and-

Kurt Andersen: (39:20)
I'd love that.

Anthony Scaramucci: (39:20)
... enjoy the chemistry there.

Kurt Andersen: (39:22)
Thanks.

Anthony Scaramucci: (39:23)
All the best to you, Kurt.

Kurt Andersen: (39:24)
See you.

Erika Nardini: Building Barstool Sports into a Digital Media Juggernaut | SALT Talks #31

“The reason people love live sports is they don't know what's going to happen. The reason they like Barstool Sports is it's really the same thing.”

In July 2016, Erika joined Barstool Sports as the company's CEO. Known for its original takes and unfiltered view, Barstool Sports is a driving force in comedy, sports, entertainment and culture. Under Erika’s leadership, Barstool Sports has experienced explosive brand and business growth as one of the fastest growing companies on the internet. It is the 6th largest podcast platform in the world with the number one sports podcast and female podcast, and the 10th largest distributed media company in the US. Barstool Sports drives 1.6 billion social views and 26 million video views monthly and 11.9 million listeners across its platforms, owning the 18-34 year old demographic.

Coming from an era just before the social media boom, Barstool generated a massively loyal following. Now, in a fragmented media market with individual personalities taking over much of the Internet, Barstool stands alone as company that effectively leverages its team of unique personalities known for unfiltered views. This unvarnished approach to media stands apart from traditional sports outlets that prioritize production value and uncontroversial opinions. “What I saw was something that could never be replicated and a brand that understood how to live and thrive on the internet which is something I believe in.”

For much of its existence, Barstool was a much trafficked website with a passionate following, but lacked many professional elements like company email or P&L statements. This created an opportunity for huge growth with a community of consumers whose trust of Barstool employees extends to the products and brands they advertise.

LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE

SPEAKER

Erika Nardini.jpeg

Erika Nardini

CEO

Barstool Sports

MODERATOR

anthony_scaramucci.jpeg

Anthony Scaramucci

Founder & Managing Partner

SkyBridge

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

John Darsie: (00:08)
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to SALT Talks. My name is John Darsie. I'm the managing director of SALT which is a global thought leadership forum at the intersection of finance, technology, politics, and entertainment. What we've tried to do with these SALT Talks during the work-from-home period is to provide a digital forum similar to the SALT Conference Series that we host every year in Las Vegas and internationally. What we're really trying to do is provide a window into the minds of subject matter experts as well as a platform for big world-changing ideas, and we're very excited about another unique SALT Talk today. We're excited to welcome Erika Nardini who is the CEO of Barstool Sports to SALT Talks today. Welcome, Erika.

John Darsie: (00:48)
Erika, like I mentioned, is the CEO of Barstool Sports which is a very fast growing media company focused on sports, comedy, and entertainment as well as culture. It's known for its unfiltered views and having a very rabid following among young consumers. In July of 2016, Erika joined Barstool Sports as the company's CEO and under her leadership, Barstool has experienced explosive brand and business growth as one of the fastest growing companies on the internet. It's the fourth-largest podcast platform now in the world with the number one sports podcast and female podcast, and it's the tenth-largest distributed media company in the United States. Barstool drives 1.6 billion social views and 26 million video views monthly and 11.9 million listeners across all of its platforms, and it pretty much owns that 18 to 34-year-old demographic in the United States.

John Darsie: (01:41)
In under three and a half years, Erika has grown the employee base at Barstool from 15 to over 200 with its revenue approaching $100 million. She's launched over 35 brands including the breakout franchises in entertainment, sports, and sports betting. Erika was named one of Fast Company's most creative people and one of the most powerful women in sports by Adweek and Forbes Magazine. Prior to Barstool Sports, she had several notable positions at top internet companies including as the chief marketing officer at AOL and as an executive at Demand Media, Yahoo, and Microsoft.

John Darsie: (02:16)
A reminder if you have any questions for Erika during today's talk, you can enter them in the Q&A box at the bottom of your video screen. Hosting today's talk will be Anthony Scaramucci who once upon a time appeared on a Barstool podcast, Pardon My Take, which is the number one sports podcast in the world. Anthony is the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge Capital, a global alternative investment firm, and the chairman of SALT. With that, I'll turn it over to Anthony for the interview.

Anthony Scaramucci: (02:40)
Well thank you, John and Erika, I also got to sing Bohemian Rhapsody with your staff with my White House sunglasses on. So since I can't hold a tune, it didn't go very far, but it was very pleasurable for me. Great to have you on. I always ask people their backgrounds and I would just love to ... Because it's a fascinating story of your life to where you are right now and how you've intersected with Barstool. What attracted you there? How did you grow up? Where did you go to school? What did you do for sports?

Erika Nardini: (03:12)
Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here. I grew up in New Hampshire. I grew up in a very small town. We basically had a couple choices. We had one television and my brother and I had an hour of television a week. So we could fight over that which we did. You could stack wood, read books, or play sports which is pretty much what I did for my childhood. I was a big field hockey player. I skied. I ran track. I went to Colby College in Maine. So I went to a liberal arts college. Played field hockey and lacrosse there which I picked up in college. I then moved to Boston. I thought that I wanted to be ... I had an internship at Fidelity Investments. I thought I wanted to be in banking or to be a lawyer, and I got a job in the legal department after I graduated and realized that was a disaster. I was just never going to be a lawyer and I was certainly not corporate.

Erika Nardini: (04:10)
I mostly went out all the time and then would spend ... I'd get my work done in like an hour and then I would just write stories about what we all did the night before. Thankfully, this was pre-social media. I then went and worked at a bunch of ad agencies. I worked on the creative and marketing side and then later on in the media side, and I got my first big break really at Fidelity when the internet was really coming to be and no one really cared about the internet. I got an opportunity to work in and to really help define what Fidelity's internet strategy would be, and then I went on ... Once I engaged with the internet, I never left.

Erika Nardini: (04:52)
So I've been working in and around the internet since probably 1999. I've worked at Microsoft. I worked abroad for a long time. I helped take a company called Demand Media public. I launched a couple startups in between. I was the CMO of AOL, worked at Yahoo. I had an interesting opportunity to see all three portals during the portal era which was AOL, Yahoo, and Microsoft. I worked very closely with Google during Google's era. I launched a startup in music which was really based on social media and the idea of maximizing what was happening with Facebook and Twitter.

Erika Nardini: (05:36)
All along, I read this little blog called Barstool Sports. I lived in Boston when Dave Portnoy, the founder, started it. I read it pretty religiously. Every guy I knew read it. I had a lot of the tee-shirts. Dave Portnoy was kind of this Don Quixote type of character. I loved the Patriots so I loved what he had to say. I modeled a lot about my company in music after Barstool Sports. I had gone to raise money from the Chernin Group, from Peter Chernin and his group and they said, "Hey, we've just invested in this company, you're a woman, you've probably never heard of called Barstool Sports." I pulled out the app. I was like, "This is everything right about this company. Here's everything wrong with this company. The technology's janky and they don't know what they're doing with this, this, and this."

Erika Nardini: (06:26)
I left very jealous. I thought that they would find someone ... They were looking for a CEO and I thought that they would find a guy with a business degree who came out of sports or sports media. I met Dave through a mutual friend probably six months later, and to be honest, I never looked back since. That was, I don't know, four and a half years ago.

Anthony Scaramucci: (06:48)
Well I'm going to read a quote because we're not that politically correct either, and we're going to talk about cancel culture in a second.

Erika Nardini: (06:54)
Okay.

Anthony Scaramucci: (06:55)
David, the founder, said in hiring you, typical irreverency of Barstool, "We needed someone with big balls dragging on the ground, alpha male. We have found out CEO, our boss, a masculine boy." Why were you so excited to lead Barstool and what do you say about that in the context of all this nonsense in our cancel culture and the need for all these people to be offended by all these microaggressions?

Erika Nardini: (07:22)
Yeah. Look, I thought Barstool was a diamond in the rough. There will never ever ever be another Barstool Sports. The reason there won't ever be another Barstool Sports is that Barstool Sports was born in a different time when media wasn't so fragmented, when social media really didn't exist. So the way that the brand was built, the loyalty that the brand garnered and has endured and nurtured and enjoyed for almost 16 years, brands that are being born today are personalities and they have to compete with so much that there is never going to be the type of audience, the type of loyalty, the type of love that this brand has enjoyed. I felt that very few people saw that.

Erika Nardini: (08:12)
There were 74 people that interviewed for this job. They were all men. I was the only one ... 75, I guess, if you include me and I was the only one that didn't say that Barstool needed to be changed. All other 74 said, "What are you going to change? You got to get a little bit more PC. This isn't appropriate." I really didn't believe in that. I actually believed that what Barstool had had propelled it to a place that was very interesting and if we were going to take this thing to the moon, we would need to evolve it, but that we shouldn't change the DNA of it and who was I, I didn't work there, to say what they should or shouldn't be doing.

Erika Nardini: (08:54)
So what I saw was something that could never be replicated and a brand that understood how to live and thrive on the internet which is something I believe in. I think the internet is all that matters. It's been incredible. I mean we've really skyrocketed this thing in four years, and I think to your question on cancel culture, look, part of the reason people like Barstool Sports is it's disarming, it's real, it's ... Authentic is a word that's greatly overused. I think a lot of big companies have big conference room meetings with words like, "How do we be more authentic?" If you're in a conference room talking about being authentic, you're not authentic. What's great about Barstool is we kind of shoot from the hip, we call it like we see it, it's personality based, it's opinion based, we're trying to give people an escape from their day-to-day cube life or their college life or their professional life or their personal life, and we do it in a way that's been a journey.

Erika Nardini: (09:58)
The camera has been on, the blog has been open, the microphones have been on every minute of every day really pretty much for the last 15 years and certainly in a very dramatic way for the last five years. I think that's what is compelling to people. It's real. You don't know what's going to happen. It's not always right. I think that is what keeps us so relevant and makes us so captivating.

Anthony Scaramucci: (10:27)
Well I mean one-third of your audience is women. So I mean you're doing an amazing job in that demographic as well. So why do you think it's so powerful? I mean you're referencing authenticity and it's very distinctive, Erika. We've sanitized our language. We have to sanitize our language in the workplace. We sanitize our language on social media. They're censoring now a lot of different bellicosity of rhetoric. So how are you getting the women here? What's the sauce, the formula that you've created that these other people cannot capture?

Erika Nardini: (11:07)
Yeah. Look, I think when you look at traditional media, you see, typically you see three guys and a very pretty woman at a desk. They're wearing suits. They have a producer and a producer behind that person and then another producer behind that. Their media is built with a tremendous amount of infrastructure, and the distance between the consumer and the person behind the desk has become very, very far. When you look at today's 20-year-old, they don't give a shit what somebody behind the desk thinks. You don't find real people in those positions. You don't find other humans who think like you and talk like you. There's nothing that embodies your group of friends or what you believe in.

Anthony Scaramucci: (11:57)
Like you don't think I should have been fired over my reference to Steve Bannon's anatomy? Shouldn't have been fired?

Erika Nardini: (12:04)
Look, I think different places have different values. Our value is that-

Anthony Scaramucci: (12:10)
You guys voted me to comeback player of the year the minute I came ... No, I was in love with you guys.

Erika Nardini: (12:16)
Yeah. Look, we like people who have the guts and the balls to call it like it is. What's great about Barstool, to your question about what's the secret sauce, is the reason people love live sports is they don't know what's going to happen. The reason they like Barstool Sports is it's really the same thing. You don't know what Dave's going to do next. You don't know what Big Cat is going to do next. You don't know what's going to be on the next episode of Pardon My Take. We are a constant conversation whether it's about entertainment or the internet or sports or people and personalities or celebrity. The unexpectedness coupled with the authenticity coupled with I would guarantee most people have someone inside of this company who reminds them of a friend of theirs and you're just like so-and-so and you love them one day and you hate them the next day, that keeps people very interested in us.

Anthony Scaramucci: (13:16)
Well said.

John Darsie: (13:17)
Erika, I'm in that target demographic. Anthony's aged out slightly from that demographic that Barstool dominates. I've followed Barstool for a long time. I saw what you were describing earlier.

Anthony Scaramucci: (13:28)
Erika, I'm not going to let him get away with that.

Erika Nardini: (13:30)
I was going to say.

Anthony Scaramucci: (13:31)
I'm going to club him over the head a few times today.

Erika Nardini: (13:33)
You guys want a podcast?

Anthony Scaramucci: (13:34)
I'm not quite the Big Cat with my comebacks, but he's going to get karate chopped-

Erika Nardini: (13:40)
Oh, he is? Okay.

Anthony Scaramucci: (13:40)
... in his Adam's apple as soon as I see him which will probably be in two years. I'm going to take him out at the Adam's apple. He won't even remember why.

Erika Nardini: (13:45)
Okay.

John Darsie: (13:46)
Continuing on with my question-

Erika Nardini: (13:47)
Yes.

John Darsie: (13:48)
... before Anthony rudely interrupted me, you took what was sort of a ball of clay of great content, content that people loved, there was a ton of brand loyalty there, but to your point, the website didn't work that well, they didn't do a great job with targeting advertisers and things like that. You came from an advertising background and so I imagine you were salivating at the possibility of turning Barstool from a great content engine into a business behemoth which is what you've done which we'll talk a little bit more about the latest funding that you guys got, but what's so powerful from an advertising perspective about that 18 to 34-year-old demographic of which Barstool reaches one-third of men and women in that demographic which, by the way, is more than Vice and Business Insider, these ... Vice is an example of one that's gotten a billion-plus dollar valuation, but what's so powerful about that demographic? When you came to Barstool, what was your plan for taking that great ball of content and molding it into a business behemoth?

Erika Nardini: (14:41)
Yeah. Look, when I got to Barstool, there wasn't a P&L. They didn't have email. They texted one another and they knew to blog every 30 minutes, but they had built a brand that stood for something that was very different. That was the single hardest thing to do. Most startups get funding, they build all the infrastructure, you make a great product, you figure out your distribution strategy, and then you worry about the content and the brand. Look at Quibi, right? Quibi raised however much Quibi raised. $2 billion and they built big lobbies and big production teams and then nobody came. We had people that were coming, but it really, truly wasn't a company per se and it was single format. It was a blog.

Erika Nardini: (15:34)
There was, when I joined, I think Pardon My Take was in it's ... I want to say it had maybe six episodes. Pardon My Take was new, new, new. What I really did was to turn the gasoline on, build some infrastructure, create a P&L, create a business, prop up a company, and to take what was happening ... A blog is really what you're thinking and you're typing it into a CMS. A podcast is the same thing. You're just saying it. What our team was really good at it was creating conversation around every single piece of content that existed. We've always been good at that. I don't think anybody does social media better than we do.

Erika Nardini: (16:20)
But the advertising piece was important. The distribution piece was important. When I got to Barstool, I couldn't get anyone to come work here. I couldn't get anyone to give a meeting with us. I think we had four advertisers, but those four advertisers loved Barstool Sports for one reason. It worked. Barstool Sports converts. The same reason you're wearing a Waterdog shirt from PLL, you're telling me it's because of Big Cat and PFT. People care what we do. When Big Cat says, "I'm for the Waterdogs," you're for the Waterdogs. When Dave Portnoy says, "I'm going to drink High Noon," you're going to drink High Noon.

Erika Nardini: (16:58)
So we've just built people who are very influential and it works very well for brands because when you look at an ad dollar, you take an ad dollar, you put it on Vice, you put it on Buzzfeed, you put it on Barstool Sports, you put it on NBC, CBS, Turner, Bleacher Report, you name it, the dollar on Barstool Sports is going to work 100 times harder than any of those dollars because you actually care what our people think and what they're doing and you feel like you know them. You feel a personal connection to Dave Portnoy, to Dan Katz, to Kayce Smith, to Alex Cooper, to Wallo and Gillie, to Ria and Fran. There's a personal connection and as a result, our performance whether it's for platform, whether it's for a brand or a commerce partner is just dramatically and remarkably different.

John Darsie: (17:56)
One of the interesting things that you've done since you took over the company is helped grow it in a very broad type of way using different types of platforms. So you didn't come in and you didn't say, "Let's blog instead of every 30 minutes, let's blog every 10 minutes." You said, "You know what? Let's do social media very well. Let's do podcasting very well." I want to talk about the podcasting thing for a little bit. Barstool is the number four podcast publisher by monthly unique audience in the United States ahead of traditional heavyweights including people like ESPN and even people outside of the sports realm. Why has Barstool been so successful in that podcast medium and why have you emphasized it so much?

Erika Nardini: (18:35)
Yeah. Look, I love podcasting. When we first started really getting into podcasting and investing podcasting, people were still saying that podcasting would never be a real business. It wouldn't be a real industry. There was never going to be enough ad dollars or enough ears to make it worthwhile. Now flash forward, you look at what Spotify is doing, you look at what Apple is about to do, you look at what Sirius XM and Liberty are doing, podcasting is real and it's here to stay. We were just very early. I like podcasting because podcasting is ultimately based on personality and opinion. We do that very well. We also have built ...

Erika Nardini: (19:19)
What we have done traditional media hasn't done is when Barstool had never ... Had a small office in Massachusetts, but really hadn't had studios until we got to New York in 2016. There also wasn't real company infrastructure until 2016. So when you look at most media companies, they're trying to break down legacy infrastructure and to build new infrastructure that will be socially distributed. We started with that infrastructure and we're on the cutting edge of that. So when we think about a podcast, it's not just a podcast. It's video. It's franchises. It's segments. It's characters. It's personalities. It's tee-shirts. It's live events. So I think about it as it's just another way for us to grow personality and opinion and another way for us to connect with fans in a medium that has a low barrier of entry and a low cost to produce.

John Darsie: (20:22)
Yeah, and just to follow up on that, and you referenced it earlier, but I'm wearing a tee-shirt for the Waterdogs which is a Premier Lacrosse League team that is owned by one of your podcast Pardon My Take. I'm a listener of Pardon My Take and I also am a big fan of Paul Rabil who started the PLL. So when I listen to that podcast, I said, "You know what? I want to support the cause and buy a tee-shirt." It's back to your point about people not just subliminally wanting to buy products that Barstool has advertisers for, but me actively wanting to support that community. But I'll pass it over to Anthony for the next question.

Anthony Scaramucci: (20:57)
I'm taking off my sports coat now that I've been embarrassed by your Barstool fashion statements and everything else that's been said here. Let's go to Penn National Gaming.

Erika Nardini: (21:09)
Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci: (21:09)
They bought 36% of Barstool, valued the company at a beautiful valuation, and it's a bet that Barstool can drive some of the rabid fan base over to the sponsor gaming business. What are your thoughts on that and how do you feel about legalized gaming? What are Barstool and Penn National's plans to attack that market?

Erika Nardini: (21:29)
Yeah. Look, we're really excited about Penn National. We have been talking ... We crossed paths with them probably about a year ago today, a year ago at this point. I'm a big believer in sports betting. Dave Portnoy is a big believer in sports betting. Same with Dan Katz. These guys have been betting for years and I think one of the things that is going to be very interesting about the legalization of sports betting in the US is that there's going to become a first generation of betters. I think that Barstool Sports and the Barstool Sports Book can become the leading brand in that. Our intention is to become a top-three player in every state that we operate in.

Erika Nardini: (22:17)
We really liked Penn for a couple reasons. They have a great management team. Jay Snowden is their CEO. He's fantastic, but they had a lot of things that we didn't have and we had things that they ... It was very complementary. They had physical casinos. They're the largest retail casino operator in the US. What they didn't have is a brand. What they don't have is expertise in digital and in media. I think when you look ahead at sports betting, when you look at how the casino operators or the daily [inaudible 00:22:51] who've turned into sports betting companies, they're going to be spending their money on marketing. That is where the majority of their [inaudible 00:22:57] will go.

Erika Nardini: (22:59)
When you look at a partnership with Barstool Sports, what they bought into is a brand that's beloved, that's been around for 15 years, and they're going to see a way of engaging consumers to bet, to be loyal, to be deeply engaged, and also to be funny, to think about sports betting in a way that can be conversational, in a way that can be social, and a way that can be funny and irreverent. I think that's really what we'll bring to the table for Penn. I think it's going to be an enormous business. I think when you look at young people and the way that they consume sports and engage with sports, betting is going to be a very natural part of that.

Anthony Scaramucci: (23:48)
I think it's an amazing part of your story that more people need to know about. In the context of your market, like let's say we have someone asking us a question about marketing on Barstool, how do they get in touch with you guys?

Erika Nardini: (24:07)
So they can ... Obviously my DMs are open. You can DM me. You can ... We have a fantastic partner team. Shout out [Greth 00:24:16] Lester who's listening to this. So we have a ... Deirdre Lester is our CRO. We work with all types of companies whether it's in the sports betting space and thinking about what we're doing in and around sports content, whether it's from an advertising perspective, a licensing perspective. So you can email us at advertising@barstoolsports.com or partnership@barstoolsports.com or you can DM me.

Anthony Scaramucci: (24:42)
Okay. Okay. Great. Do you know who's going to own the Mets, Erika? I'm dying to know that.

Erika Nardini: (24:47)
I'm hoping it's Alex Rodriguez.

Anthony Scaramucci: (24:49)
Okay. Okay. Tell me why. Why do you want A-Rod?

Erika Nardini: (24:53)
Well I love A-Rod. I'm an A-Rod girl. Look, a couple things. I think Alex-

Anthony Scaramucci: (24:59)
I'm a huge A-Rod fan as well. I had dinner with A-Rod a year ago.

Erika Nardini: (25:02)
Okay.

Anthony Scaramucci: (25:02)
I'm a little more partial to Steve Cohen only because-

Erika Nardini: (25:05)
Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci: (25:05)
... we're best friends and I have a lot of money-

Erika Nardini: (25:07)
I think Steve Cohen's going to get it.

Anthony Scaramucci: (25:09)
Okay. You think it's going to be Steve Cohen? Okay.

Erika Nardini: (25:12)
I do.

Anthony Scaramucci: (25:12)
I'm sort of not allowed to talk about it 100%-

Erika Nardini: (25:14)
I bet.

Anthony Scaramucci: (25:15)
... because-

Erika Nardini: (25:15)
I'm probably not ... Shouldn't get into this either, but-

Anthony Scaramucci: (25:17)
Okay. Let's go to A-Rod for a second. You said you love A-Rod. Why do you love A-Rod? Because I think A-Rod has had a huge comeback and I think he is the man on broadcast announcing and I think he knows a tremendous amount of baseball. If he ends up owning a team, he'll add huge value to a baseball team. Let's go to-

Erika Nardini: (25:35)
Yeah, I agree. I think he has a bigger vision for baseball. He and I have talked about it a lot. I think, look, what's interesting about Alex and Jennifer is they understand sports and entertainment. Sports is becoming entertainment and entertainment is becoming sports. That's just a reality. Everything is blending together. I think he has ... He's someone who has been on journey. He's exceedingly curious. He is the only person who sits at Barstool Sports, Fox, and ESPN. In and of itself, that's quite a feat. You don't see that happen ever. He's interested in ... He obviously loves the game of baseball. He obviously understands media. I think he has a lot of ideas of how to bring new viewers and younger viewers in particular to the game. So that's why I like Alex. I think he's parleyed an incredibly stratospheric baseball career into a media and broadcast career into an investment career and hopefully one day into an ownership, into an ownership career.

John Darsie: (26:47)
Erika, I want to talk a little bit about working at Barstool. It was somewhat or it still is somewhat of a controversial website that people label with that misogyny tag. So when you were named CEO, it was sort of a middle finger from Dave to everyone saying, "Listen, we are one of the only media companies out there with a female CEO." You're the only sports media company today to have an all-female C-suite. Why do you think Barstool is so controversial and what have you learned about dealing with that criticism while working there?

Erika Nardini: (27:17)
I don't think we're that controversial. I think that we ... Look, I think we're a well-run company. I don't think our growth from $5 million in revenue, neighborhood of $5 million to nearly $120 million in revenue in four years is an accident. It wasn't happenstance that that happened. We're a well-run company. We have a good way of doing business. We have a very strong management team. We're the only company not just in sports, but in entertainment media, with the profile of an exec team that resembles ours. It's diverse. It's female-led. You just don't see that right now. I think the reason people think Barstool Sports is controversial is we're, in general, at the cross hairs and we're becoming increasingly at the cross hairs of exactly what you guys are investing in and talking about: news, sports, entertainment, the internet, politics, local events, celebrity.

Erika Nardini: (28:25)
We are talking about whatever it is people are talking about, looking at, or listening to and we are doing it with very strong opinion from very influential personalities. As a result, when we have an opinion, there's naturally an equal and opposite opinion to that. I think that that's one reason people think Barstool Sports is controversial. I don't think Barstool Sports is controversial by design. I think it's opinionated and vocal by design.

Erika Nardini: (28:55)
I think the other reason we are very interesting and talked about is that we're a company that has a history and we're a company where these guys have called it, they've been making jokes, they've been in the comedy space for 16 years at this point. Most of that content still lives on the internet, and when you look at most companies and most brands, the stuff that they were doing five years ago, three years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago is gone because the things that were considered appropriate, the things that were considered funny, the type of dialogue, the type of humor that was permissible has changed. We still have that history out there and I think that, personally, that's what makes, is in part what makes Barstool Sports compelling because it's very real. Anyone who is enjoying our content for the most part was alive 16 years ago. They were making their own content. They were saying their own things. We're different in that the cameras have been on and we're different in that we recognize that this is a reality show as much as it is anything else. A lot of that content and a lot of that opinion and a lot of those jokes still are out there.

John Darsie: (30:17)
It's almost one of those things where people have in their mind that you're controversial because they watched some program that convinced them you were controversial, but if they were to point to any individual instances, they would probably struggle to find something that was particularly controversial. But I want to talk a little bit about Barstool's ability to dominate sort of the pop culture zeitgeist. So the COVID pandemic is a perfect example. You have Big Cat who's one of your personalities for people who aren't familiar with Barstool. He started playing an old video game that he had in his living room, NCAA Football 2014. He turned that into he became the largest streaming Twitch personality sort of on that platform. He had something like 200,000 people watching him at one time, watching him play that video game.

John Darsie: (31:06)
Then you have Dave Portnoy, the founder of Barstool, has become Davey Day Trader Global where on CNBC, it's hard to watch CNBC for a day without them talking about Dave Portnoy and what he's done to create this legion of sort of retail traders that are trading while they can't bet on sports during the pandemic. So what do you think it is about Dave and about Big Cat and the team and the personalities you have there that are so good at drawing on those little things and becoming sort of those on-the-fly phenomena?

Erika Nardini: (31:38)
Yeah, I just think they're insanely talented. Dave Portnoy's dream when we opened up our office in New York was that if you were funny, instead of applying to Saturday Night Live, you would send your resume to Barstool Sports. I think we're there. I think if you are funny and you want to build a brand for yourself and you want to be part of something very creative, we're as good as it gets. I also think Dan, Dave are two phenomenal examples of just incredibly captivating personalities who made a lot of content in a time when there was no resource. So when you look at big media and you look at the pandemic, those personalities were kind of stuck. The studios weren't open. You couldn't liaise with your producer. You didn't have your set. There was no infrastructure. We're a company that has very little production infrastructure. We have a very unlayered approach to production, and so as a result when our office closed, these guys had what they always had from the beginning. You have the internet.

Erika Nardini: (33:05)
You also have complete creative freedom to do what is interesting to you and for Dave, Dave was missing betting so he took after the stock market. You truly cannot watch CNBC for a day or read anything about trading and not see Dave mentioned. This is something he picked up in March of this year. He was like, "I'm going to figure out day trading." Dan took a different approach and said, "Hey, I'm going to play NCAA '14 and I'm going to invent this big fat coach named Coach Duggs," and you have 160,000 people watching him live every night. As big as multiple stadiums are watching an NCAA video game football game on Twitch with Dan. So I think partly it's the ingenuity of the people who are here. Partly, it's the freedom to create for the most part whatever they want. I think the third part of it is a very complete comfort in making content with very little resource and very little production and very little infrastructure.

Anthony Scaramucci: (34:15)
Well I've got to compliment Dave Portnoy because I watched that entire interview with President Trump and I don't know David, but I do know the president and I thought he captured a lot of what the president is about. I always say to people if you like the president or you dislike the president, don't demonize him because he's another human being like everybody else. Then you just have to look at him qualitatively and objectively to assess if you want him in that role, but I thought Dave captured his personality. So kudos to him. It's an interesting thing to do coming from Barstool Sports because you've got the White House as the largest fish tank or aquarium in the world and here comes Barstool and the great maverick Dave Portnoy and he's all of a sudden opening up a sleeve into something that other people would not have seen without him. So give you a lot of credit on that.

Anthony Scaramucci: (35:07)
But I want to ask a meta question if that's okay, and I know John has a couple more questions for you before we break. This is about ... It's sort of the five-year question. Now, we all got the five-year question wrong. If I asked you in 2015 what were you going to be doing late July 2020, it is not sitting in your house with a mask on walking outside. I don't think you would have gotten that right, Erika. Nobody that I know has gotten that question right, but the five-year question going forward for Barstool, where is it? What happens to token CEO? What happens to your programming? You're a visionary. What does it look like in 2025?

Erika Nardini: (35:47)
Yeah, that's hard. I think you will see a couple things. In 2025, my hope is we are an extremely dominant player in sports betting. I think you're going to see that from us, that we have not only created the playing field, but we have really built something very durable and very robust and high-performing and valuable. So I think you're going to see us be a powerhouse in sports betting. I think in five years, the way people watch sports is going to be dramatically different than it is now. I think all the rights deals will change. I think who is broadcasting what will change. I think who you listen to when you're watching live sports is going to change. I would bet that some of the voices you're going to want to listen to are from Barstool Sports and we will be in that game is the second place I think you'll see us be.

Anthony Scaramucci: (36:53)
[crosstalk 00:36:53]. You had that moment with ESPN. You almost had a full Scaramucci with ESPN. I mean a full Scaramucci is-

Erika Nardini: (36:59)
We had a one-night stand with ESPN.

Anthony Scaramucci: (37:01)
Yeah, a full Scaramucci is 11 days. I think you got to-

Erika Nardini: (37:04)
Yeah, we didn't even make that.

Anthony Scaramucci: (37:05)
... 10 out of a Scaramucci.

Erika Nardini: (37:06)
Yeah. Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci: (37:08)
Any chance to reset that ever, ever going back? No?

Erika Nardini: (37:12)
Not in that way because it's not in our interest to be totally frank with you. If you look at ... It was great to have the chance to do a show on ESPN. I loved that. That was great for us. Same with we did ... We had one of the highest rated Super Bowl shows on Comedy Central the year before. So it was great for us to play with television. Television is in decline and when you look at a show at 1:00 AM on a secondary network, I'm not sure I would do that today because we're bigger than that show-

Anthony Scaramucci: (37:49)
Right.

Erika Nardini: (37:49)
... just by turning on the lights in the video game. So I think our world has changed from where we were in 2017 and I think network and cable television has changed from where it was in 2016 and 2017 which is why I think in five years when you look at the leagues, they want to be in a place where they're going to get the biggest amount of eyeballs. Those-

Anthony Scaramucci: (38:18)
Those sports franchises are worth more in five years?

Erika Nardini: (38:21)
Yes.

Anthony Scaramucci: (38:22)
Tell me why.

Erika Nardini: (38:23)
Because I think live sports is the single most valuable thing on television bar none because it's-

Anthony Scaramucci: (38:34)
[crosstalk 00:38:34] platforms, right? It's valuable on streaming. It's valuable on the internet. It's valuable on-

Erika Nardini: (38:37)
It doesn't matter where you put it. People will come watch it.

Anthony Scaramucci: (38:40)
So it's almost like the Swiss Army knife of programming-

Erika Nardini: (38:43)
Completely. I mean I'm a Patriots fan. I don't give a shit what network the Patriots are playing on, not to be crass.

Anthony Scaramucci: (38:49)
[crosstalk 00:38:49] Patriots fan. How could you not tell me she was a Patriots fan?

Erika Nardini: (38:52)
Who are you a fan of?

Anthony Scaramucci: (38:53)
I knew you were a Patriots fan. I knew you grew up in New Hampshire. I'm a suffering Met, Jet, Knick, and Ranger fan. Okay. I hate going to Logan Airport for the ... You know the reasons why I hate going to Logan Airport. You guys do that at the shuttle for us New Yorkers-

Erika Nardini: (39:09)
Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci: (39:09)
... okay?

Erika Nardini: (39:09)
We do.

Anthony Scaramucci: (39:10)
It causes tremendous pain seeing 26 championships up there-

Erika Nardini: (39:15)
Just a little kiss for when you come into town.

Anthony Scaramucci: (39:17)
Yeah, when you're leaving too. I mean it's a TSA nightmare for me in Boston.

Erika Nardini: (39:22)
It is true, but anyways, it doesn't matter. If you're watching your Jets lose, you don't care where you're going to watch them. I mean you'd like to see them win, but what you're going to be able to do in five years' time is you want to listen to the game in Spanish, you want to listen to Big Cat, you want to listen to Chris Collingsworth. You're going to get your choice, and I think that's where the world gets very interesting. Look at John's wearing PLL Waterdogs shirt. The PLL was-

Anthony Scaramucci: (39:52)
With George Washington behind him, but he's wearing the Waterdogs shirt. You know he's a very complex guy.

Erika Nardini: (39:57)
Yes, yes.

John Darsie: (39:58)
That's America.

Anthony Scaramucci: (39:58)
You know there's a lot of psychiatrists-

Erika Nardini: (40:00)
There's a lot going on there.

Anthony Scaramucci: (40:03)
A lot of psychiatrists would like to get in there and figure out what's going on. Trust me.

Erika Nardini: (40:05)
Completely, but that's a league that was created two years ago. It's brand new. So I think in five years, the way we watch sports, the way we engage with sports, who's commenting on sports, who has the rights to sports will change and you will see us be a part of that. I think you'll also see us get physical and you will see ... If you look at One Bite, we have the largest database of pizza in the world. We have an app where people review pizza hundreds and hundreds of times a day. Why don't we have a pizza restaurant? Should we have a pizza restaurant? Should we be making pizza? So I think those are the places you're going to see us be in five years.

Anthony Scaramucci: (40:50)
All right.

John Darsie: (40:51)
We're going to leave it there. We could do this for a couple hours, I think. I'm fascinated by the growth of Barstool. You grew it from a scrappy little blog and a leaflet that Dave Portnoy handed out on mass transit in Boston to a $450 million media empire. I think you're still just scratching the surface. I think people, when they saw that number, they said, "Oh, my goodness. What's going on," but I think the value that you create inside of Penn National and what you can do to become sort of the leading player in the online gambling space is unlimited. The potential is unlimited especially in an environment where states are trying to generate revenue and are probably going to accelerate that timeline in terms of legalized gambling.

Erika Nardini: (41:29)
Yeah.

John Darsie: (41:29)
Thank you so much for joining us, Erika. Maybe we'll have to do this again in the near future, maybe after Anthony goes back on Pardon My Take. I know he's been itching to get back on.

Anthony Scaramucci: (41:40)
[crosstalk 00:41:40]. I was the man of the moment for that moment, but make sure you tell Dan, the Big Cat, that that was a lot of fun for me in a lot of ways. Every time I walk in the airport, there's a 20-year-old, they say, "Oh, my god. You were on Pardon My Take."

Erika Nardini: (41:55)
That's great.

Anthony Scaramucci: (41:57)
How powerful your messaging and your medium is and congratulations to all of you guys. You built a-

Erika Nardini: (42:04)
Thank you.

Anthony Scaramucci: (42:05)
... fantastic business. Even though I'm outside of the demographic as John has pointed out seven times since we started, I am one of your big time customers.

Erika Nardini: (42:15)
Awesome.

John Darsie: (42:15)
Just by a couple years. Just by a couple years.

Erika Nardini: (42:18)
We'll take him. We'll take him.

Anthony Scaramucci: (42:21)
We'll see what happens to him when he gets to my age. Okay? By the way, since I'll be controlling all the Botox supply in America by then, you're going to look like S-H-I-T. Okay? Let's just put it that way. Erika, you can have as much Botox as you want, but you probably-

Erika Nardini: (42:34)
Thank you.

Anthony Scaramucci: (42:34)
... won't need it.

Erika Nardini: (42:35)
I do. I enjoy it.

Anthony Scaramucci: (42:36)
God bless you, Erika. Let's stay in touch, okay?

Erika Nardini: (42:38)
Okay.

Anthony Scaramucci: (42:38)
Hopefully, we can get you to the SALT conference one year.

Erika Nardini: (42:41)
I would love that.

Anthony Scaramucci: (42:43)
I think you guys would enjoy that. We do get a lot of cross-section of athletes. We had Kobe a few years ago who gave an amazing speech, and we obviously miss him a great deal. Thank you, Erika, and we wish you the best. Stay safe and healthy.

Erika Nardini: (42:57)
Great. Thank you guys.